Big Thanks to Everyone!

[Setsanto]

Hey,
Over the past few weeks, I think my team has used this forum more than anyone else. As a result, we now have an animation done in our first year! This could not have been done without the help of many of you, in particular BuddyB309, who provided valuable help to us throughout the season. THanks a lot everyone!

~Setsanto

P.S. Our screenshot:

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/8959/team1334screenshotzl8.th.jpg (http://img91.imageshack.us/my.php?image=team1334screenshotzl8.jpg)

[BuddyB309]

Thanks, I always love teaching people who have the willingness to learn. Promise me you will work with the software over the summer. Then you can come back next year and sweep the contest.

[Setsanto]

I'm doubting the whole sweeping the contest thing! Also, a more serious point, our school has decided that the licenses of 3ds Max that Autodesk gave us should be used at computers at school for a Media Arts course, and the rest of our animation team and myself shouldn't have them at home. Is this common?

~Setsanto

[adamrw91]

well they really cant do that because the liscences for the 3ds max are for use on the first competition only. you can read up on it at firstbase

[Setsanto]

But does that also then not mean we cant use them at home?

[BuddyB309]

But does that also then not mean we cant use them at home?

Sure you can, as long as your intent is FIRST. If you are using it to design lesson plans for the animation team or to help your animation team design a project for practice you can use it. Autodesk gives you a year license for a reason, if they only wanted us to use it for the season, they would have a 3 month license. You cant use it for commercial work, only for FIRST.

It's not uncommon for mechanical teams to have workshops over the summer to help everyone learn, why cant the animation team have that opportunity. If your pursuit is education, let nothing stand in your way.

[Pavan Dave]

Sure you can, as long as your intent is FIRST. If you are using it to design lesson plans for the animation team or to help your animation team design a project for practice you can use it. Autodesk gives you a year license for a reason, if they only wanted us to use it for the season, they would have a 3 month license. You cant use it for commercial work, only for FIRST.

It's not uncommon for mechanical teams to have workshops over the summer to help everyone learn, why cant the animation team have that opportunity. If your pursuit is education, let nothing stand in your way.

But there is a big difference in using the licenses to start a course at a school and using the licenses to teach a few kids that are on the robotics team with the computers coincidentally being at the school. The first one is against the Autodesk terms.

On the FAQ of FIRSTbase the following written:
Can I use this software for my school classroom or for another use besides FIRST?
The granted software is intended for support of FRC team efforts only is not licensed for schools to use in classrooms or labs. If the Autodesk software is used in a manner in which it was not intended, the user’s license may be de-activated and further actions may be taken.


Rules are there for a reason. And although we may not agree on all of them all of the time, we still have to follow them.





.

[Setsanto]

Ok, thanks alot everyone

~Setsanto

[ebarker]

I'm doubting the whole sweeping the contest thing! Also, a more serious point, our school has decided that the licenses of 3ds Max that Autodesk gave us should be used at computers at school for a Media Arts course, and the rest of our animation team and myself shouldn't have them at home. Is this common?

~Setsanto

You need to have a talk with your school administration. If in fact this is what the school decided it is nothing less than theft, pure and simple.

The license agreement is for the team and team members to use to develop animations for uses related to the team, on any computer available to them, including home computers.

The license agreement specifically prohibits installing the software for school instructional use. In order for the school to use Autodesk products they will have to execute a purchase agreement with Autodesk for any and all licenses they install, apart from any licenses that is used in robotics.

The administrations actions are potentially a serious breach of trust as it regards Autodesk and the FIRST community.

Please do what you can to correct this, or Autodesk will likely correct it for them.

[Kevin Thorp]

You need to have a talk with your school administration. If in fact this is what the school decided it is nothing less than theft, pure and simple.

When you talk to the school administrators I recommend being very diplomatic. I'm sure it's not their intent to "steal" the software or break Autodesk's terms of use contract. They probably think the Max licenses are standard educational-use.

[ebarker]

When you talk to the school administrators I recommend being very diplomatic. I'm sure it's not their intent to "steal" the software or break Autodesk's terms of use contract. They probably think the Max licenses are standard educational-use.

Agreed !!
If the school paid the FIRST registration fees they may think they have a license to use so it will be necessary to explain how all that works.

[Kevin Thorp]

Maybe a compromise could be worked out that would stay within the license agreement?

Perhaps the school could sponsor a FIRST Robotics animation club in the afternoon and/or during the summer vacation. The main goal would be to learn 3ds Max skills in preparation for the 2008-2009 season.

[Mazin]

pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate pirate, and when you're done doing that, pirate some more.


No, seriously, I am not happy with Autodesk's 3ds max, and what I perceive to be an overpriced, bloated piece of software that is very buggy and suffers from a lot of legacy cruft. Every year they release a new version of the software with broken file-format compatibility, and basically force feed it onto everybody using an older version.
They're starting to act like Microsoft. No. They've been acting like Microsoft. They give you the first hit free. Then, when you become dependent, they make you pay.

If you want to learn something, might as well learn Blender while you're at it. People whine and moan about the interface, but it's actually usable when you take the time to learn. Nobody learned Max in a day.

And Blender is free, as in freedom. You can install it on as many computers as you like. Files are forwards and backwards compatible, unlike Max's closed binary format. You don't have to worry about how many licenses you currently have. You don't have to worry about whether installing it on your home computer will use up the X number of licenses you have. You don't have to worry about being dependent on Max like an addict is on crack, and being forced to shell out money. There are no rules to follow on how you can and cannot use the software (besides the GPL, that is).

If you don't agree with my first paragraph, then consider switching. If you don't want to switch, keep pirating.

(Sorry for derailing the thread too far. I agree that Pete is a great help to everybody on the forums, and has continually blessed us with his expert advice. in b4 negs)

[Kevin Thorp]

If you don't want to switch, keep pirating.

Wow - that's the first time I've read a posting on Chief Delphi that encourages students to commit a crime (stealing software). Not exactly the "Gracious Professionalism" FIRST tries to promote.

Autodesk donates 5 one-year licenses of 3ds Max and 10 licenses of Inventor to over 1500 teams nationwide (now worldwide) and they sponsor these two exciting competitions. So they are evil because their software is bloated and their prices are too high?

Yes, the full commercial license of 3ds Max is pricey ($3500) but thousands of professional animators think it's worth the money. If you're a student you can buy it for less than $400 online at places like Studica (http://www.studica.com/products/product_detail.cfm?productid=54553). They even have a 14-month license for only $195.

Or there are plenty of other, less expensive alternatives - Blender, Gmax, Sketchup (all free), Truespace, Hash AnimationMaster, Poser, Carrara, Rhino, etc. Here's a pretty complete list: Link (http://www.amazing3d.com/softcom.shtml)

If you don't like a company's product or price you can shop elsewhere. It's called the free market.

If you pirate software it's called a felony.

[Mazin]

Wow - that's the first time I've read a posting on Chief Delphi that encourages students to commit a crime (stealing software). Not exactly the "Gracious Professionalism" FIRST tries to promote.
[...]
If you pirate software it's called a felony.

somebody bit. ok.

That's right. Pirating software is a felony. As a fine, upstanding community, we shouldn't be pirating software. However, there ends up being about three options for software like Max when you leave your comfortable world of educational licenses.

1. Pay for it. Max is about $3500 last I checked, with the (optional) annual subscription program an additional $500-600 (maybe? I don't remember what mine was...) a year. It can be a reasonable expenditure, depending on the business you do.
2. Violate the end-user license (some people like to refer to this as "pirating," "theft," "stealing," or any number of other amusing phrases).
3. Find an alternative.

Guess what is the most common approach? I'll give you hint (par. 1 of my previous post.)

Guess what I'd rather have you guys do? (it's not a hard guess to make.:rolleyes:)

Meanwhile, here's sum delicious copypasta:
http://www.turbosquid.com/Forum/Index.cfm/stgAct/PostList/intThreadID/30224
(Andy Rak is a very respected senior member of TurboSquid.)
http://www.coniserver.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/469119/an/0/page/0#Post469119
(Worth bookmarking.)

[Ryo Chiba]

Sometimes it just isn't feasible to comply to this license system.

Sometimes it's the difference between a team spending a week to organize a license distribution method, or a day hand out installers and start working.

Sometimes it's the difference between lugging a desktop computer into a classroom and installing it within the school (to ensure that the licenses are not stolen), or carrying the program on a flash drive home. (I trashed my desktop's HD doing this my first year on the team)

Sometimes it's the difference between not learning the software at all, or learning it.

Sometimes it just isn't feasible to comply to this license system.

And sometimes(assuming that students aren't selling their work, or distributing their pirated program to a large business and cutting profits for the software company), noncompliance to the license system does no harm to the software company or students.

Kevin is right in that in our perfect society, we should strive not to disobey these laws written before us.
However, Mazin is also right that in our imperfect society, economics and logistics outweigh these laws in most circumstances (for students, anyway).

[Kevin Thorp]

There are a few handy (and legal) options to run 3ds Max on more tha 5 computers.

1. The "Portable License Utility" disables Max on one computer but enables it on another. Useful if you have Max running on your work/school computer but want to do some work at home (or vice-versa). You need admin rights to run the PLU.

2. You can install an older version of Max on as many computers as you want - for 30 days, then install a newer version for 30 more days. Assuming Autodesk releases Max 2009 next year and you have versions 8, 9 and 2008 you could install ver. 8 in mid-October and "upgrade" each month right up to the competition deadline in mid-February.

3. As I've wrote earlier, students can buy a 14-month license of Max 2008 for only $195. That's less than 50 cents per day.

[Setsanto]

Well, first of all, I downloaded Blender and was about to start getting annoyed about the UI, then finished reading your post. I do not agree at all with your post about pirating/bending licensing rules. Autodesk donates 5 copies of 3ds Max to 1500 teams. At $3500 for 10 lisences (whether you agree with the price or not) that is $2 625 000 they are donating to FIRST each year. I can understand where you are coming from, however, I do not agree with you at all.

An update: I talked to my shop teacher who is in charge of robotics, and who is pretty much animation's closes ally at my school. His answer, "Don't worry about it, they won't find out." Well, I am worrying about it. Any suggestions?

~Setsanto

[BuddyB309]

Well, first of all, I downloaded Blender and was about to start getting annoyed about the UI, then finished reading your post. I do not agree at all with your post about pirating/bending licensing rules. Autodesk donates 5 copies of 3ds Max to 1500 teams. At $3500 for 10 lisences (whether you agree with the price or not) that is $2 625 000 they are donating to FIRST each year. I can understand where you are coming from, however, I do not agree with you at all.

An update: I talked to my shop teacher who is in charge of robotics, and who is pretty much animation's closes ally at my school. His answer, "Don't worry about it, they won't find out." Well, I am worrying about it. Any suggestions?

~Setsanto

Its $3500 for a commercial license for 3ds max, which your are good to make money off of it for the rest of your days. What autodesk gives FIRST is a student license and only good for a year. Which they sell for $145 for 14-month period.

You have to also think of it in economics terms from the company. Lets say you have two Kids.

Kid A is a small town highschool student that has a pirated copy of 3ds max and is using it for educational purposes. He makes small animations and puts them on the internet. He likes to surf the internet for tutorials so he can learn the program for next years competition. He works part time at a job so he has a little spending money.

Kid B also has a pirated copy of 3ds max, Kid B is getting calls from production companies contracting work out to him and is getting paid $1000 - $3000 each job. He is also making 3d animated shorts and posting them on his personal website that is gaining some popularity. He is now starting to sell T-shirts and is making a nice profit. He bought a new car with the money he has made off the copy of 3ds max.

If I was a company, I would be more interested in Kid B because if I take legal action against Kid B, I would be more likely to get the money to pay back the layers that I hired. The most I would do with Kid A would shoot him an email asking him if he would like to purchase a educational license of 3ds max 2008 for 50 cents a day so he could continue to pursue his educational goals.

I know we would all like to become Kid B someday, making animations and getting paid for it:yikes: but I know most of you are not at that level. Most of you are Kid A's, Autodesk is not going to spend the time and money to prosecute all the millions of Kid A's running around. I don't even think it even crosses the minds of the employees. What they do care about are the Kid B's because kid B's are stealing $3500 from the company as oppose to $0.50 a day that the Kid A's are supposably taking.

I will repeat myself. When your pursuit is education, Let nothing stand in your way you will regret your choice in the future if you never take it.

[adamrw91]

When your pursuit is education, Let nothing stand in your way you will regret your choice in the future if you never take it.

I totally agree and if you aren't making money off of it then its not that bad. i dont se what is so wrong.

[Kevin Thorp]

BuddyB, where did you see the 14-month license for $145?

At that price I don't think anyone has an excuse to pirate the software.

[Mazin]

Well, first of all, I downloaded Blender and was about to start getting annoyed about the UI, then finished reading your post. I do not agree at all with your post about pirating/bending licensing rules. Autodesk donates 5 copies of 3ds Max to 1500 teams. At $3500 for 10 lisences (whether you agree with the price or not) that is $2 625 000 they are donating to FIRST each year. I can understand where you are coming from, however, I do not agree with you at all.

An update: I talked to my shop teacher who is in charge of robotics, and who is pretty much animation's closes ally at my school. His answer, "Don't worry about it, they won't find out." Well, I am worrying about it. Any suggestions?

~Setsanto
They are not donating $2 625 000 a year to FIRST. That is simply a ridiculous calculation.

I am not complaining about the amount of money involved. $3500 can seem like a small amount to some, while $150 can be too much for some. "At that price I don't think anyone has an excuse to pirate the software" is a bit silly. Look at how many teens spend a few thousand on a car. Meanwhile, I try not to spend money at all on "intellectual property."

Most of the questions here about this issue were about licenses. Who owns the licenses? Can I take them home? What about installing it on the computers in the shop? We don't have enough licenses to put on all the computers we use, what do we do? Is it OK if I use it for things besides FIRST? I don't remember anybody in this thread asking about an alternative to spending $X amount of money.

If you weren't stuck with commercial software to begin with, then you wouldn't be stuck with these problems. Say what you want about Blender's UI, but to me Max's UI is no better. Just more familiar.

Setsanto, your shop teacher is probably right, and that there's nothing to worry about from violating the license. But, on the other hand, you could learn Blender (or [insert free software name]) and not have to worry. Your choice, really.

[Kevin Thorp]

Why do some people think it's wrong to shoplift a candy bar but it's okay to pirate software? Both are illegal.

"Because everybody does it" or "you won't get caught" does not make it legal.

"I'm only using it to learn the software". That's why Autodesk has educational-use only licenses for 1/10 the price of their commercial licenses.

"Because I can't afford it" is not an excuse. If animation is your passion you can find a way to come up with $145 to buy a 1-year license of 3ds Max. Ask your parents, your grandparents, or robotics team leader. Get a minimum wage job for one week.

Many of you will go onto art college then pursue exciting careers creating video games, movies and other digital content. Your income will be derived from people who enjoy your product and are willing to pay for it. How would you feel if they decided not to pay for it, but steal it instead?

I know I sound preachy, and to be honest I was guilty of software piracy when I was younger. Then I learned about the law, and about programmers, animators, musicians and artists trying to make a living from their creative work.

In this digital age it's easy to steal intellectual property. But it's still wrong.

Before you post a message saying it's okay, please read this document: Software Piracy and the Law (http://www.bsa.org/sitecore/shell/Controls/Rich%20Text%20Editor/~/media/Files/BSA%20Antipiracy%20Resources/SW%20Piracy%20and%20The%20Law%20August%202006.ashx )

[Kevin Thorp]

Just to clarify:

Each team is given 5 one-year licenses of 3ds Max. If you want to keep building your skills to prepare for the 2009 competition I recommend talking to your team leader about taking a license home. This is perfectly legal.

[ebarker]

If you weren't stuck with commercial software to begin with, then you wouldn't be stuck with these problems.

You are not stuck with commercial software. No one is forcing you to use it. you are quite welcome to use your own intellect to create your own property that you can give away to the world.

You can start from scratch, or join a group of maintainers of some open source produce that you can then make better than anyone else's on the planet.

People do it all the time. Software isn't like oil or minerals. You don't dig it out of a mine. There is no cartel. It is purely the product of someones talents.

It is really quite that simple !!!

In the real world $ 3,500 is nothing compared to the cost of paying a commercial user of that software to work all year, plus their health plan and everything else.

In the real world, Autodesk has graciously allowed FIRST students to use their software for free so that the student can learn something. They don't even have to buy the educational version.

I am very curious how many FIRST teams can make effective use of more than 5 copies of 3dsmax. Most teams can barely use one copy.

If a team has that much animation work going on then the school should have a full up class on the subject and build and equip a lab to teach the course. And buy the equipment and software to get that done...

my $ 0.02

[Kevin Thorp]

Maybe some schools lock up the software for "safe keeping" during the off-season.

Unfortunately that means the kids who really want to learn more about Max can't use it.

[ebarker]

Maybe some schools lock up the software for "safe keeping" during the off-season.

That would be really unfortunate. To me and I think this is Autodesk's intent is for the mentors/leaders to make an accurate assessment of who is interested and needs the software.

That leader grants permission to the Autodesk site for that student to download and install that software. It is that simple.

I grant access rights to students, not the school. They can put it on a computer in their bedroom and stay up all night working with it for all I care. If they lose interest the license can be transferred to another student.

The school has no interest in this matter at all. They have other matters of much more importance, like educating students, not jumping in the way of what FIRST and Autodesk intended.

The school should lock up their software. This is NOT their software but a right to use license granted to the team and it's students. Very different.

It isn't a complicated concept.

[fireball3004]

I hate being lawful good sometimes (D&D Reference), but you should look through your options, I have a friend who screamed at me when I told him he had to use 3Ds MAX instead of sketch up to make our animation. Sketch up is free and basically the same as max, I suggest you ask the administration to use that instead. Further more let me congratulate you on having a school that will even make an animation class in times that press schools so hard.

Why do some people think it's wrong to shoplift a candy bar but it's okay to pirate software? Both are illegal.
Software Piracy and the Law (http://www.bsa.org/sitecore/shell/Controls/Rich%20Text%20Editor/~/media/Files/BSA%20Antipiracy%20Resources/SW%20Piracy%20and%20The%20Law%20August%202006.ashx )

You already know I'm not for pirating 3DS MAX, but I love philosophy and I think the argument is over tangible vs. intangible. If you take a candy bar, you keep someone else from eating it who did some work for it. If you pirate software you would otherwise be unable to afford, the company doesn't lose money because you would never have been able to afford a license, and your not stopping anyone else from using that software. What's more it's for educational purposes of teaching students, which in many cases will just increase the number of people wanting and capable of using the software which might actually help the company, though granted a lot of them might pirate as well. Money is lost mainly through other businesses that should buy the software, but don't. I don't follow laws because they are laws, I follow laws because they are good for society and maintain trust.

For all additional references, even if you don't agree and think pirating is fine, please don't post it on a forum with lots of people well connected to the software with the ability to both notify the company and competition you are using it to enter... it's just not a good idea.

[Kevin Thorp]

You can argue philosophy all you want, but it's still just rationalizing theft.

Assuming you can't get your team leader to give you one of the 5 3ds Max licenses, who on this forum cannot afford the $10-14 a month it costs to buy a 14-month license?

[morpheous115]

They are not donating $2 625 000 a year to FIRST. That is simply a ridiculous calculation.

I am not complaining about the amount of money involved. $3500 can seem like a small amount to some, while $150 can be too much for some. "At that price I don't think anyone has an excuse to pirate the software" is a bit silly. Look at how many teens spend a few thousand on a car. Meanwhile, I try not to spend money at all on "intellectual property."

Most of the questions here about this issue were about licenses. Who owns the licenses? Can I take them home? What about installing it on the computers in the shop? We don't have enough licenses to put on all the computers we use, what do we do? Is it OK if I use it for things besides FIRST? I don't remember anybody in this thread asking about an alternative to spending $X amount of money.

If you weren't stuck with commercial software to begin with, then you wouldn't be stuck with these problems. Say what you want about Blender's UI, but to me Max's UI is no better. Just more familiar.

Setsanto, your shop teacher is probably right, and that there's nothing to worry about from violating the license. But, on the other hand, you could learn Blender (or [insert free software name]) and not have to worry. Your choice, really.

Chances are they wouldn't have gotten caught until they posted here, in which case Autodesk probably still doesn't care enough, and if they do they are only going to subpoena ChiefDelphi for the IP addresses of the posts in this topic and go after the school and cutting off licenses or filing a lawsuit [option b is very very unlikely but greedy companies do not see it as a "return in their investment down the road"].


You already know I'm not for pirating 3DS MAX, but I love philosophy and I think the argument is over tangible vs. intangible. If you take a candy bar, you keep someone else from eating it who did some work for it. If you pirate software you would otherwise be unable to afford, the company doesn't lose money because you would never have been able to afford a license, and your not stopping anyone else from using that software. What's more it's for educational purposes of teaching students, which in many cases will just increase the number of people wanting and capable of using the software which might actually help the company, though granted a lot of them might pirate as well. Money is lost mainly through other businesses that should buy the software, but don't. I don't follow laws because they are laws, I follow laws because they are good for society and maintain trust.

For all additional references, even if you don't agree and think pirating is fine, please don't post it on a forum with lots of people well connected to the software with the ability to both notify the company and competition you are using it to enter... it's just not a good idea.

Companies, if they were serious about customers, would breed the young ones and corrupt them to use their software. What I mean by that is that they would give FREE FULL versions or even EDU versions to individuals, etc. and just have the "You can't make profit from your animations" deal as one of the few TOS. What this will do, is give EVERYONE access to the software. Than when people want to make animations [for profit] they would purchase this software for the wallet killing price it currently is [if it doesn't grow].

So by this time the people that use program X are brainwashed and are experts so that when they hop from company A to B they can [provided they are a beast at what they do] get the company to switch or buy a few licenses of program X so that work gets done faster for said person.


-morpheous




.

[fireball3004]

Lol, well, I suppose it is rationalizing theft, but it's certainly not the same as stealing a candy bar, and it's not the same as traditional theft. That's why ideas are great, they are free. ;P I <love freeware.

I agree Morpheuos, but we can't run their company for them, we don't make these decisions, even if it is a smarter economic move.

Edit: I should remember ^^ as well.

[65_Xero_Huskie]

You already know I'm not for pirating 3DS MAX, but I love philosophy and I think the argument is over tangible vs. intangible. If you take a candy bar, you keep someone else from eating it who did some work for it. If you pirate software you would otherwise be unable to afford, the company doesn't lose money because you would never have been able to afford a license, and your not stopping anyone else from using that software. What's more it's for educational purposes of teaching students, which in many cases will just increase the number of people wanting and capable of using the software which might actually help the company, though granted a lot of them might pirate as well. Money is lost mainly through other businesses that should buy the software, but don't. I don't follow laws because they are laws, I follow laws because they are good for society and maintain trust.



Your statement has a flaw in it. If the student/person is not paying for it and is stealing it, What happens if they take the things learned and get a job from it. This would be theft to help yourself, and the company is losing money from the kids that would want to buy it to get the job, but if they find out you can do it for free than there goes the customer. Also, if you do win something from your work with the software, how do you justify that? Would they give the price of the software back after the fact? Its like stealing a car, and then 5 years later paying for it.

Dont get me wrong though, People learning things from software that is free is always a good thing. But when it could give an unfair advantage in anything then it becomes an issue between stealing and not.

[fireball3004]

Your statement has a flaw in it. If the student/person is not paying for it and is stealing it, What happens if they take the things learned and get a job from it. This would be theft to help yourself, and the company is losing money from the kids that would want to buy it to get the job, but if they find out you can do it for free than there goes the customer. Also, if you do win something from your work with the software, how do you justify that? Would they give the price of the software back after the fact? Its like stealing a car, and then 5 years later paying for it.

Dont get me wrong though, People learning things from software that is free is always a good thing. But when it could give an unfair advantage in anything then it becomes an issue between stealing and not.

Consider the opposite example, if the student/ person does not have the money to pay for the product? They wouldn't be able to get a job based on it, and therefore less licenses would be sold to whoever they end up working for. Though your right, it does imply that if you can afford to buy the program the way many schools can't, you should.

If you win an award with use of a stolen program then hopefully it'll be enough money that you can afford to pay for the software in the future, not to mention that it also implies that someone who would otherwise not have been able to realize their skills in the use of the program has turned out to be exceptional and a great asset to the world, they would not have otherwise been. Though I thought we were talking about the illegal use of this program in classes for educational purposes, as was the original subject if I'm correct, hence it's a bit more of a stretch because it's closer to a commercial purpose than an educational one.

I don't think that stealing the licenses in order to learn how to use it ought to be considered stealing if indeed they could not otherwise afford it, because if every such person were free to do so, everyone who would like to learn the software can, so it doesn't seem like an unfair advantage, but rather an evening of the playing fields between those who can afford this program, and those who can't. Most of the money lost in my opinion, is when a stolen program is used for commercial purposes instead of educational ones.

In case ^^ turns out to be a decent argument, I would like to add that one should still not steal these programs, it is a violation of trust, and bad for the society, because there are those who are lawful who are penalized by your actions because they refuse to do so. This is simply why I advocate AutoDesk to change their policies. Not like it will ever happen.

[Kevin Thorp]

It's not up to the individual to decide what is or isn't theft. It's defined by federal and local laws.

And the fact that you probably wont get caught, or the victim is rich & can afford the loss does not make it okay to steal.

I challenge any student to explain how they cannot afford $14 month for a legal software license. If you're capable of learning 3ds Max you're capable of working for 1 week at a minimum wage job to buy a 14-month license. Or just cut back to only 1 Mt. Dew a day & use your extra money to buy Max!

If you steal food because you're starving and can't work, that's understandable. But we're talking about people stealing software because they're too lazy to pay for it, or would rather spend their money on something else.

[Setsanto]

If anyone could link me to these $140 licenses, I would be much obliged.

~Setsanto

[Kevin Thorp]

I think BuddyB mentioned the $140 license.

The best I could find was $195 for 14 months (students only), including Combustion and Cleaner. Still a great deal!

http://www.journeyed.com/itemDetail.asp?ItmNo=12314843F
http://www.studica.com/products/product_detail.cfm?productid=54553
http://www.academicsuperstore.com/market/marketdisp.html?PartNo=859319

[Mazin]

Blender: $0 for forever (everybody), including game engine and video editor.

Still a great deal!