Is there a place this year for robots that cant hurdle?

[Adama]

As stated in the title, If you can herd and remove balls but you cant hurdle will you be at a significant disadvantage?

Just looking for CD's thoughts

matt

[Taylor]

We're banking on NO. There are only two trackballs per alliance; at least one robot will have to find something else to do, whether that be running laps, "rebounding" the hurdled trackballs and returning them to the hurdlers, or something else.

[s_forbes]

That probably depends on your lap times.

The way I see alliance pickings going this year, most alliances will consist of two hurdlers and one fast lap runner. If you can run laps faster than most other teams, then you probably have a good chance of being picked for eliminations. The fact that you can remove balls from the overpass is a plus.

[jgannon]

If not, somebody better tell JVN in a hurry.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64839

[thefro526]

I think that there's a place on any alliance for someone who can't or choses not to hurdle. In a match like previously stated there are never more than 2 trackballs per alliance. Unless you're going to be doing some all-star amazing passes between three hurdler someone's going to need to either play defense or run laps.

Personally I think an alliance is going to need 2 decent hurdlers and one bot thats highly maneuverable and mildly powerful that can run laps and act as an annoyance to other teams. I think in some qualifying matches we're going to see the weakest hurdler (should there be three) be out in this defensive/lap scoring position. Also my theory be true I think we're going to see a lot of strong hurdlers pick another hurdler first and then a good lap runner second.

Also In this years game I like the fact that all you need is a working drivetrain to score. In the event of a catastrophic failure of all other scoring systems you may be saved by a working drivetrain. And tot hose of you who think that it can't happen it can and it will. In NJ last year I played 2 out of three of my matches without pneumatics and one of those with nothing but a right and left drive motor.

[Scott Carpman]

There is certainly a place for gripperbot and racerbot. The ideal alliance this year is one shooterbot, one armbot, and then one agile gripperbot to reload the shooterbot. As long as the trackballs keep being fed into the shooterbot, the alliance could get upwards of 15 hurdles per match.

[waialua359]

A fast lap runner will run into traffic with 5 other robots and/or up to 4 balls on the field. A ferrari in traffic is no faster than a big rig truck. **extreme case** That's the disadvantage they will have.
Hurdlers will still be able to go around the track.
But the reverse scenarios cant happen.
IMO, that puts hurdlers at an advantage.

HOWEVER, there are levels of performance on how well teams can hurdle (speed and efficiency) which will affect outcome of matches.

During teleop period, the question will be, "Can a team hurdle at least once while a lapper runs around the track four times?"

Autonomous is the key.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

As stated in the title, If you can herd and remove balls but you cant hurdle will you be at a significant disadvantage?

Just looking for CD's thoughts

matt

I believe that the non-hurdlers will make the difference in the games.

Hurdlers will mostly cancel esch other out and recieve the most defense against them, thus it will be the 'alternative scorers' that will make or break alliances.

[waialua359]

I believe that the non-hurdlers will make the difference in the games.

Hurdlers will mostly cancel esch other out and recieve the most defense against them, thus it will be the 'alternative scorers' that will make or break alliances.

I'm not sure on this.
I think hurdlers will try and worry about grabbing their own ball and trying to hurdle, unless your talking at the end of matches.
Both teams that have alternative scorers can cancel each other out too.
If its 3 hurdlers vs a team of 2 with one alternative scorer, I can see your point. But in the playoffs, I dont think teams will do that knowing that only 2 balls in their alliance will only be available. In fact, I would rather have a robot that focuses on defense and not let teams put a ball up at the end instead of a lapper. A lapper will have a hard time stopping a robot from putting a ball on the overpass at the end, all else equal. That's 12 points bonus equivalent to a lapper who has to do 6 laps just to tie that feat. Autonomous is the difference maker.

[NOV8R]

I believe a defensive herder (not a racer) could make a big difference in the game. Continuous contact between a Robot and Trackball are permissble herding. You are also allowed to herd your opposition's trackballs. Robots may also push or react against any element of the arena. No where in the rules does it say you have to be moving to herd. So if a herding Robot hanging out just past the oppositions finish line can pin the opposition's Trackball against the wall following their opponents hurdle, the best hurdler now has no Trackball to to hurdle with. Defensive Trackball management. You gotta love it.

[waialua359]

True, but when we practiced, those dammn balls move like crazy a lot more than we originally thought (since they are relatively heavy and large).
Gripping/grabbing a ball will be tough too with traffic and a whole lot of robots on the field. That will waste just as much time as trying to do a hurdle.

[IndySam]

I'm thinking three hurdlers.

When one hurdles there will be one waiting to get the ball for their attempt and one with the other ball racing around to hurdle.

An effective three team relay will be unstoppable.

[waialua359]

I'm thinking three hurdlers.

When one hurdles there will be one waiting to get the ball for their attempt and one with the other ball racing around to hurdle.

An effective three team relay will be unstoppable.

Never thought about that. GOOD POINT!

[Daniel_LaFleur]

I'm thinking three hurdlers.

When one hurdles there will be one waiting to get the ball for their attempt and one with the other ball racing around to hurdle.

An effective three team relay will be unstoppable.

I think 1 outstanding hurdler and 2 highspeed herders, to bring the trackballs around, will win this year.

It'll be interesting to see the different playstyles and how they react.

Less than a week before BAE :D

[waialua359]

Well I guess we can all wait and see how matches play out during week 1 regionals. Too bad all of them are not NASA webcasted.

[Devibeast]

Most likely, the robots that do hurdle will either be highly ineffective or slow. I predict the majority of the points will be made in hybrid from going around the track.

[Swampdude]

It wouldn't be hard to win with 3 good "hybrid" bots and a bunch of defense afterwards. But I'm sure that a very good hurdler will be in every winning alliance. I agree with waialua359, hybrid is where its at. Even though there's rules on impeding, there's still going to be a lot of traffic to contend with. Especially wherever the balls are.
To answer the question though, just running laps will get difficult in the inevitable traffic. Unless you're totally committed to that, and very small, like 148.

[JOhnch181]

Gripping/grabbing a ball will be tough too with traffic and a whole lot of robots on the field. That will waste just as much time as trying to do a hurdle.

We have had a few days of practice plus a few practice matches and from experience that i have gained it will be easy to herd a ball especially if you possess it.

Also forklift hurdlers will take up lots of time in there hurdling and they are genrally slower.

So i think it will be necessary to have at least one hurdler but you can get away with the other being an alternate scorer and a racer.

[waialua359]

We should take a page out of 2006 and 07.
In 06, you could lose a match if you got blown out during autonomous. When matches were 40+ to 0 after autonomous, how could you possibly win (very little chance). It was not consistent because opponents could try and block you, messing things up. However, this year, no opponent is even in your area to try and block you. Thus, good autonomous bots will be more consistent, especially with the aid of the IR.
In 07, only 1 ringer at a time, and many teams claimed in practice, they could do 7-10 in a match by themselves and I saw it during the practice day (with no traffic and defense). Then during competition, no one got remotely close to averaging that by themselves and you seldom saw it done by an average alliance, because of...............defense and traffic.
This year, 08, you have lots of points potential from autonomous and lots of chance for defense and traffic because only 2 balls will be available per alliance.
Conclusion: Autonomous is important. Defense is important. We will see lots of traffic, tipped-over bots, broken pieces on the field, and frustrated teams. **exagerating a bit**:D

[Kellen Hill]

My optimal alliance would have two good shooters and one racer.

In my opinion, arm bots will not be able to keep up with good shooters and the racer could race and of course mess around with the other teams trackballs.

[ChrisH]

My optimal alliance would have two good shooters and one racer.

In my opinion, arm bots will not be able to keep up with good shooters and the racer could race and of course mess around with the other teams trackballs.

Both shooters and arms have the same amount of power available. If it is employed effectively, it should not matter whether the power is used for an arm or shooter, both should be able to score at about the same pace.

The wise alliance will make good use of all its members in spite of any limitations they might have. Just be honest about what those limitations are. This game also has more potential for team action than some previous games. Be a good team player, do your best, and the rest will take care of itself.

My team is often on the picking end. There have been times that we have NOT picked high performing robots because we had trouble interfacing with the team and there was a slightly less capable but more co-operative alternative. Playing well with others counts too

[R.C.]

i'm thinking two hurdlers, hopely arms and then a ultra fast herder

[Ryan Dognaux]

I think it depends. In the earlier regionals, you'll probably see 2 hurdlers and a herding robot / race robot. One robot could move each trackball to the next robot theoretically, but I don't think that will happen too much. That 3rd robot in each alliance is going to be interesting to say the least, but I think if you've got a quick drive and can manipulate the balls by knocking them off the overpass and herding them if necessary, then you're going to look very attractive to an alliance partner.

By the championship though you'll probably see alliances made of 3 very quick hurdlers.

[budly99]

I think being able to keep the ball away from the other team is highly UNDERATED on this board. If you push the ball backwards past the lines, a robot from the other team would have to go all the way around, past the finish line, and miss the opportunity to hurdle the ball.

There are a lot of stratagies to be used for robots who can not hurdle !!!!!!

[Lil' Lavery]

In the early weeks, I feel that bots unable to hurdle will have a larger role, particularly (as just mentioned), as nuisances. Keeping balls away from the effective herders will be ever bit as important (if not more so) than them doing laps.
Later on, as drive teams get more skilled and educated, and as robots come together more, we'll see more coordination. More "relays" and "passing" will come into play, and teams will learn what it takes to maintain control of the ball (which, especially with shooters, makes it important to have three teams at least capable of manipulating the track balls well).
Hybrid is where the "speed-demons" can be dangerous, as we've already seen two teams capable of running nearly three full laps in hybrid alone (148 and 1519)...on an open field. The question is, how much further can they make it than a 217 (or other speedy hurdler)?
The only real advantage to not having the ability to hurdle is the ability to make a tiny robot (ala 148 and 1519), but we have yet to see how much of an advantage that really is. Especially given that neither of them have mechanisms designed to maneuver the trackball, and that their small size hurts their ability to control trackballs and the traffic on the track.
Ultimately, a vast majority of the major "factors" (good bots) will at least have the ability to hurdle. Not all of them will use it all the time, but everything a lap-bot can do, so can a fast hurdler if it wants to. And most alliances will likely want and need the flexibility of the third hurdler to help enhance their offense.

Then again, I am a fan of the spread offense (football), the torpedo (hockey), the Phoenix Suns style offense (basketball), the 296/217/522 alliance of 2006, and the 1595/116/93 alliance of 2007. So my strategic perceptions may be a bit biased... :rolleyes:

[DPTeam270Driver]

Hybrid is where the "speed-demons" can be dangerous, as we've already seen two teams capable of running nearly three full laps in hybrid alone (148 and 1519)...on an open field. The question is, how much further can they make it than a 217 (or other speedy hurdler)?


The only problem with this is there an easy defensive tactic to prevent this, this tactic is called doing nothing, if you stand still in autonomous mode right next to the endline running robots will not be able to complete even one lap

[Scott Carpman]

The only problem with this is there an easy defensive tactic to prevent this, this tactic is called doing nothing, if you stand still in autonomous mode right next to the endline running robots will not be able to complete even one lap

But then that brings up the argument: Is the sacrifice worth it?

[Lil' Lavery]

The only problem with this is there an easy defensive tactic to prevent this, this tactic is called doing nothing, if you stand still in autonomous mode right next to the endline running robots will not be able to complete even one lap

Personally, I don't think that'd be worth it, as you're not only attempting to prevent them from completing laps, but sacrificing your lap points and preventing your partners from completing laps. Additionally, I'd like to see how well your bot can maintain it's position when it's clipped at high speeds by a 148 or 1519. I'd think that they'd be fully capable of nudging past you on the inside of the track. You'd slow them down some, but I highly doubt you'd stop them.

[Aren_Hill]

I can see robots with very limited sensors passing 1 maybe 2 lines scoring 4 or 8 points. Lets do the math...stop a mad lap bot from multiple laps(16pts per lap)...or sit there and hold them to 4 possibly 8 if you get shoved over. And if they do hit you or any obstacle what are the chances there robot will have sophisticated enough control systems to continue making laps?

Doing nothing or moving a couple feet will be one of the most common significant defensive play this year, and depending on who your facing it will be worth the sacrifice.

(and realize that most speed demon bots are full weight and would hit a bot that most likely is, plus they're geared higher and most likely couldn't push you out of the way.)

[waialua359]

During autonomous, I have to agree. How sophisticated are robots to be able to avoid traffic or once they hit something, can they regroup and still move forward.
The part I dont get is why try and go around the track. We didnt try to create an autonomous to move around the entire track because we DONT want to risk hitting bots and either tip over or break something.
I look at some teams that have fast hurdling bots planning to do autonomous around the track and I think to myself, what a risk!

[Guy Davidson]

In the early weeks, I feel that bots unable to hurdle will have a larger role, particularly (as just mentioned), as nuisances. Keeping balls away from the effective herders will be ever bit as important (if not more so) than them doing laps.

I think this is where Sean hit the nail on its head, or so to speak. In the early weeks, as always, there will probably be a shortage of robot that work. The speedy bots will have an advantage there, as they are only trying to get a drive train (and maybe a ball knocker) working, so there's probably a higher probability of those bots working well.

As the weeks go on, more and more robots will achieve their full potential, in which case there will be less of a market for lap runners, unless they are extraordinary (see 148, 1519). I know that unless the lap runner is amazing, I'd rather have a backup hurdler in case one breaks, because it can shuttle balls at least as well (presumably having a mechanism to posses balls) and giving us a backup, and an open door to alternate strategies. When you have only two, or even just one hurdler, you're pretty much boxed into a specific robot hurdling. By the later regionals, especially the deep ones (Florida, Finger Lakes, Toronto, Great Lakes come to mind), any strategy flexibility you could get will probably be well worth it.

[waialua359]

Here's more food for thought.
Last year, if the alliance only had 1 ringer scorer, the opposing alliance always had 1 defensive robot on that scorer and in other cases, sometimes 2 of them blocking the scorer.
If an alliance this year only has 1 hurdler, I would strategize against that one robot with one of our alliance bots strictly to make it difficult for them to grab/pick up balls and to shoot/hurdle. Bumping into balls is still great defense. Keeping stationary in their way is still great defense.
The other disadvantage is at end of matches. If the opposing team has two bots placing balls on the overpass at the end of matches, there is no way for that bot to knock off or prevent both balls from staying up on the overpass.

My point is that I think teams definitely need 2 hurdlers and it will be a huge disadvantage if a team only has 1 hurdler that can knock or place balls on the overpass. Most of the lappers that I have seen are built for speed, compact, and manueverable. They wont have ball poppers to knock balls off the overpass. **not talking about the exceptional bots like 217 who is hella fast too**
Most of the posts that i've read agrees that you need at least 2 hurdlers also. I would want the 3rd bot to be a great defensive bot who can knock balls off the overpass with great efficiency. Choosing a speedster would be lower on my list, only because they cant knock balls off the overpass.
Many matches last year were won on bonus points at the end of matches. I dont think this year will be any different.

[Lil' Lavery]

I can see robots with very limited sensors passing 1 maybe 2 lines scoring 4 or 8 points. Lets do the math...stop a mad lap bot from multiple laps(16pts per lap)...or sit there and hold them to 4 possibly 8 if you get shoved over. And if they do hit you or any obstacle what are the chances there robot will have sophisticated enough control systems to continue making laps?

Doing nothing or moving a couple feet will be one of the most common significant defensive play this year, and depending on who your facing it will be worth the sacrifice.

(and realize that most speed demon bots are full weight and would hit a bot that most likely is, plus they're geared higher and most likely couldn't push you out of the way.)

It's not an issue or drive torque, weight, or traction. It's an issue of momentum and where they hit you. If they smack the defensive robot on the corner, chances are that they will rotate the defender and continue on their lap-running journey.
Currently, I doubt many (any) lap runners are autonomously advanced enough to correct their journey around the track if they face traffic...but that's what the robocoach is for. Team's with smart robocoaches and signaling methods may be able to avoid traffic or correct their paths. Even if teams haven't incorporated such a system yet, odds are that by later regionals and championships, the top-level lap runners will have.

The defensive move may be viable during early regionals, especially in qualifications. But in scenarios where bot teams have speedy-lap bots, or where the bot capable of defense is capable of removing one or more balls from the overpass, it just doesn't add up.

[waialua359]

Sean,
It looks like we are going to have to sit down together and discuss this after seeing week 1 regionals over pineapples at VCU during week 2 practice match day.:D

[Aren_Hill]

It's not an issue or drive torque, weight, or traction. It's an issue of momentum and where they hit you. If they smack the defensive robot on the corner, chances are that they will rotate the defender and continue on their lap-running journey.


i never said that the obstructing robot would sit still because it definitely won't hence why bumpers are mandatory, i just don't picture, with or without robocoach help, a team being able to recover well from hitting an obstacle.
i can only envision a few teams being able to pull this off the entire season let alone first few weeks

[Ken Streeter]

Hybrid is where the "speed-demons" can be dangerous, as we've already seen two teams capable of running nearly three full laps in hybrid alone (148 and 1519)...on an open field.

Three laps would be really extraordinary! Two laps, though, isn't out of the realm of possibility...

For example, take a look at 1519 - Video of "Speed Racer" in Autonomous (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65193&highlight=1519).

[banannaman20]

u will be screwed just go around the track a fast as u can

[Donut]

I certainly think and hope there's a place for them this year, our team built their design based on that fact.

What I haven't decided yet is which type of non-hurdling bot will be most effective. Just as there is a shooter vs. arm debate, for non-hurdlers I have the question of whether herders or lap runners will be more important.

Lap runners have the ability to score significant points without a ball just because of their speed and size, and will be the most valuable robots for hybrid if they can avoid collisions. With their maneuverability they are also well suited to play positional defense by parking in front of parts of the overpass to give a hurdler a more difficult time getting to it. On the down side every lap runner I've seen has no way to interact with the trackballs if necessary other than pushing them, and I don't believe I've seen any with ball knock-off mechanisms either.

Herder bots will be larger and although they will probably be designed for speed, their speed advantage won't be nearly as large as the one lap runners will have. Herders can provide lap support for alliances if necessary, but will have a larger impact assisting with the trackballs. The best herders will be able to put up point numbers on par with the better hurdlers when given a trackball, or they can shuttle them around to slower moving hurdler allies for maximum ball points. Herder bots will probably see the defensive role more than any other robot design, playing keep away with the opposing alliance's trackballs and removing balls to negate end bonuses.

I see lap runners working well in offense-oriented alliances, most likely with 2 hurdlers or a herder and hurdler that can handle the balls themselves. There could be an alliance with multiple (or all) lap bots that ignores the trackballs, but this alliance would have to try to win the game in hybrid mode, since they may have trouble scoring in teleop if the opposition slows down the tempo of the game.

Herders will be in the more defensive role, playing nuisance against the opposition while 2 hurdling partners rack up points. There may also be a "hand off" alliance that uses 2 herders to run balls to a single hurdler or an alliance with 1 hurdler, 1 herder, and 1 lap bot, but these will only happen at Regionals with mostly broken hurdlers or if the herder is extremely good at scoring with the trackball (in excess of 36 points).

Regardless of which one plays a bigger role I still see one of them being necessary to the best alliances of this year. With only two trackballs on the field someone has to run laps or defense, and a robot designed for that purpose will be better at it than a hurdler that does it on the side (there will not be a hurdler this year that can outrun lap runners like 148 or 1519, and since most hurdlers capture the ball they will be unable to use their manipulators on the opponent's balls which many herders will be able to do). The only way I see 3 hurdlers performing better is in an extreme hurdling hand off scheme passing balls over the overpass to each other, and from robot designs this year I don't think teams will be able to do that very effectively.

[ALIBI]

What kind of lap times does a lap bot need in order to have a significant advantage over any other? Granted, a small lap bot can fit between places that a 28x38 bot can not, but at the same time, the 28x38 can probably do a little pushing around to make openings where there wasn't one for either bot before. If you had to choose between a star lap bot and a hurdler that can do 5-6 second laps (clear field but in complete control), remove the trackballs and hurdle on the fly, and hurd if needed, which would you choose?

Add to the hurdler removing at least one trackball, possibly two if the opposing alliance is out of the way and crossing at least two or more lines during Hybrid. Does that change your answer?

What would an alliance of three lap bots look like? To me, having three speedsters together would be an awesome site, with a little deffense on the trackballs, I bet they would give a three hurdler alliance a run for their money.

[bobabot1]

Team 2550 got lucky this year and got picked by the second-seed alliance on the 8-1 sweep. Our original design was a forklift but we had a bad crash and decided to just be a lapper/poker. We consistently did 6-7 laps per match.

The only problem we really faced was that unless there were good scouting teams, we would not get chosen for finals (thank you team 488).

As the mantra goes, do one thing and do it well

[Akash Rastogi]

u will be screwed just go around the track a fast as u can

*Clears throat*

I wouldn't say it in those words. Yeah, run laps as fast as you can, but be careful, I saw a lot of robots who were running laps at the speed of light (ahem 102 :D ) and were doing it well. But then there were "speed demons" who just rammed into every robot they saw in there way. Most of the time these were robots on the same alliance. Such robots, I am glad to say, will be penalized by referees. Too many robots were excessively pushed out of the way during matches and it became a sort of nuisance since bumping is for when someone is in your way for more than a few seconds. However, I did not see the need for some robots to keep ramming poor little robots who were barely in there way for a second. To me, it was totally un-GP and I hope that it does not continue through the weeks.

Other than those things, like someone said above, everyone has something to contribute. When scouting, teams look for the best of the best. This means being fully capable of doing a certain (or multiple) tasks exceptionally well. This is how some beautifully performing alliances are formed. :)

[Kevin Kolodziej]

We fully intend to have our hurtling up and running for Wisconsin, but at Midwest, where there were a lot of great hurdlers, we could only drive. We could have just simply ran laps with our pretty quick robot, but we chose to play defense. Mind you, we don't defend robots, we defend balls. If a hurdler cannot get to a ball, they cannot hurdle. We ranked 6th not because our alliances could score more points than the opponents, but because we were able to cause the opponents to score less than our alliance. The couple of matches where we opted to not play defense and just run laps - we lost.

Defense cannot win alone, however, as every match we had one decent hurdler on our side.

[waialua359]

As fast as teams that just race around the track are, I thought they had very little impact in the playoffs. Teams that advance in the playoffs were no slouches and the constant hurdling and great auto/hybrid play is what made them successful in advancing.
In other words, a team that could hurdle (scoring 10 points) while crossing underneath the overpass did it much faster than a robot circling around the track 5 times to match it.
It seemed to be more effective on practice day and some matches during qualifying since robots were trying to get their functions to work and qualifying is a random matchup. But as teams pick others during elimination brackets, that's not the case.
No question, they were very fun to watch and the driver's must be having a blast doing it, but the point awarding for such a play is too little.

[George A.]

I have to say, I think that teams that can't hurdle won't be of much use to alliances in the elimination rounds.

That's not to say that the speed demons won't be picked, but they won't do much.

My reasoning for that, is if a team hurdles then goes under the over pass that's 10 points. A lap bot needs 5 laps to accomplish the same thing. (The most in a match at NJ was 9.)

If i were picking an alliance, I'd take 2 really good hurdlers, and 1 somewhat speedy bot with hurdling capability, but not as efficient as the other two. That way in the heat of a match, if one of the main hurdlers' arm breaks, they can do laps while hurdle bot 3 takes over.

[Paul Copioli]

The top three scoring robots at St. Louis:

1. 217 - Averaged 40 points per match and is a hurdler
2. 525 - Averaged 31 points per match and is a hurdler
3. 148 - Averaged 30 points per match and is a racecar.


A top tier racecar will be a better partner than an average hurdler. The regionals will see the top tier race cars doing very well.

The championships will not have 24 top tier hurdlers in each division so I see top tier race cars having a significant impact.

We won St. Louis with pretty darn high scores utilizing only one hurdler and two race cars. While this will not work at Championship, it is very effective at regionals.

[Heretic121]

The top three scoring robots at St. Louis:

1. 217 - Averaged 40 points per match and is a hurdler
2. 525 - Averaged 31 points per match and is a hurdler
3. 148 - Averaged 30 points per match and is a racecar.


A top tier racecar will be a better partner than an average hurdler. The regionals will see the top tier race cars doing very well.

The championships will not have 24 top tier hurdlers in each division so I see top tier race cars having a significant impact.

We won St. Louis with pretty darn high scores utilizing only one hurdler and two race cars. While this will not work at Championship, it is very effective at regionals.
i agree whole heartedly with Paul here... at BAE we teamed up with team 40 another hurdler and team 134 who could carry the trackball but did not use thier arm at all during the elims... they had a great ball poker mechanism and did continus laps and worked amazingly... we couldnt have done it with out them!

lap bots will have a HUGE impact at regionals, but im not interily sure about nationals...

[waialua359]

The top three scoring robots at St. Louis:

1. 217 - Averaged 40 points per match and is a hurdler
2. 525 - Averaged 31 points per match and is a hurdler
3. 148 - Averaged 30 points per match and is a racecar.


A top tier racecar will be a better partner than an average hurdler. The regionals will see the top tier race cars doing very well.

The championships will not have 24 top tier hurdlers in each division so I see top tier race cars having a significant impact.

We won St. Louis with pretty darn high scores utilizing only one hurdler and two race cars. While this will not work at Championship, it is very effective at regionals.

If the racecar averaged 30 points per match, even though I didnt see the regional play, I can only assume it had a lot to do with autonomous. Otherwise it did, an average of 15 laps during the match.
Most racer bots that I saw was not able to average 15 laps per match.
If that's the case, as a third alliance partner, I can see the rationale as being effective.:D

[DonRotolo]

Not being able to hurdle is not an insurmountable deficiency.

IF your bot can...

Take down a ball and Cross 3 or more lines in Hybrid and Drive fast and stay in control, then you can be a contender.

If you are just 2 of those 3, then you are unlikely to be a top seed.

Taking down a ball is important, at the beginning of the match to bring balls into play, and at the end of the match to deny the opposition the bonus points. Just remember that you might end up giving the other team a hurdle...

Crossing 3 or more lines in Hybrid is important because you can start the match with a decent lead, 12 or more points.

Driving fast is OK, but staying in control is more important, to avoid penalties, Often there are traffic jams, with 3 bots and 2 balls all over one end, so being able to thread the needle and get past is a good thing to have. Ramming is penalized, whether inadvertent or not. Pushing is not a valuable characteristic this year.

IF your bot can hurdle in a reasonable time (our 15 seconds is FAR too slow), and gain control of the ball easily enough, then you can drop one of the above and still contend. If you do all four well, you're going to be in the very top.

Just some observations from the NJ Regional.

Don

[waialua359]

Not being able to hurdle is not an insurmountable deficiency.

IF your bot can...

Take down a ball and Cross 3 or more lines in Hybrid and Drive fast and stay in control, then you can be a contender.

If you are just 2 of those 3, then you are unlikely to be a top seed.

Taking down a ball is important, at the beginning of the match to bring balls into play, and at the end of the match to deny the opposition the bonus points. Just remember that you might end up giving the other team a hurdle...

Crossing 3 or more lines in Hybrid is important because you can start the match with a decent lead, 12 or more points.

Driving fast is OK, but staying in control is more important, to avoid penalties, Often there are traffic jams, with 3 bots and 2 balls all over one end, so being able to thread the needle and get past is a good thing to have. Ramming is penalized, whether inadvertent or not. Pushing is not a valuable characteristic this year.

IF your bot can hurdle in a reasonable time (our 15 seconds is FAR too slow), and gain control of the ball easily enough, then you can drop one of the above and still contend. If you do all four well, you're going to be in the very top.

Just some observations from the NJ Regional.

Don

Don,
I agree with this also. After watching the regional play all weekend and speaking with our team, we know that crossing 3 lines is good and knocking a ball down (at least one of our alliance teammates doing it). It wont take you out of the game, if the opposition has a good auto also. We know we can cross 3 lines, but our knocking the ball off is iffy, since we didnt have enough time to test.
Knocking balls down at the end effectively and quickly is important, and we realized that during the build season. We made sure our manipulator (arm) was not the device used to knock balls down. I saw a lot of teams that followed that concept also.

[lukevanoort]

If the racecar averaged 30 points per match, even though I didnt see the regional play, I can only assume it had a lot to do with autonomous. Otherwise it did, an average of 15 laps during the match.
Most racer bots that I saw was not able to average 15 laps per match.
If that's the case, as a third alliance partner, I can see the rationale as being effective.:D
I wouldn't put it past 148 to do 15 laps in a match. We did 8 in a match at a local scrimmage; 148's top speed is almost twice our maximum velocity, they accelerate more than twice as fast as us, they pack all that power into a swerve drive, and they probably had more practice time. Their robot is also round so it automatically diverts itself around obstacles (or diverts obstacles around it, as the case may be). I have yet to see them in competition (via webcast or in person), but I suspect that 15 per match is not an unreasonable number for them.

[Paul Copioli]

They got to 11 at St. Louis. I expect them to get much better by their week 5 regional.

[EricH]

As fast as teams that just race around the track are, I thought they had very little impact in the playoffs. I would say that 1024 could take exception to that statement. They pretty much canceled out two hurdles by running laps in Hybrid and Tele-Op in the MWR finals.

[jason_zielke]

Though we are a hybrid shooter/arm bot, we did a lot of laps in some of our matches. For those of you that could not see the whole field on the webcasts, one defensive strategy that came into play was trapping the opposing alliances ball in the corner so they could not hurdle.

With one or sometimes two of the opposing alliances robots holding balls in the corners, we were more than happy just to run laps because it was more effective than trying to fight for the ball and score no points at all.

As for the real question at hand, I think any racer that can get 3+ lines in hybrid can play a huge role in the game. Also, if a racer could add a simple device to do ball knock-off, they would make a great compliment to 2 hurdlers. However, it really comes down to driver ability with racers. If they can navigate traffic effectively and work with the other alliance partners, I think they will do great!

[Mike Schreiber]

Which would you pick, given that you already have 2 moderately effective hurdlers, who are average speed.

1) A robot that can maneuver the ball moderately well, push it around and play keep away, they are quite fast and good drivers. They can knock off balls easily, but not hurdle.

2) A robot that can maneuver the ball just as well, is slightly slower, but can hurdle somewhat effectively.

3) A robot that can do it all and is fast

Clearly your choice should be the third one, but chances are that team doesn't exist in the second round of picks after 16 teams are gone. So would you like to see a robot that can hurdle if needed (say a malfunction in your robot) or would you like the speed demon. Speaking from a mechanical standpoint, and after watching what happened to alliances last weekend, I would pick choice 2. The two hurdlers on your alliance are not perfect, yes in the ideal world they are, but I doubt anyone can say that it's not possible for their hurdling beast to become handicapped after seeing the chaos on the field. So if you only have one hurdler left, what are the chances you'll win? I'd take a back up every time.

[waialua359]

the only tough part of choosing your last choice is that there are really more choices than those 3. Not all arm bots are slow and there are varying degrees of their driving skills and based on their design. 1024 is an example of a bot that when compared with racers, could compete with the majority of them.
There are exceptional racers and average racers, much like varying degree of shooter bots and arm bots.
The disadvantage of a pure racer bot, unless its somewhat spectacular, is that it cant knock balls down, put balls back on the overpass and hurdle. These functions clearly account for high scoring which the racerbot must overcome.

[Ken Streeter]

Is there a place this year for robots that cant hurdle? Absolutely! The robot that I've seen this year that clearly demonstrated this was the robot of "The Riot Crew" from Portland, Maine, Team #58. At the week 1 Granite State Regional, this robot was the #4 scorer through the first 9 qualifying rounds according to the data collected by our scouting team. They scored a total of 292 points (an average of 32.44 per round) as follows:
0 hurdles
39 herds
20 robot-only laps
96 points in autonomous
They also dislodged quite a few opponent's balls at the end of the matches with their amazingly simple ball-dislodging mechanism which enabled them to dislodge balls while driving under the overpass at full speed.

They ended up as the #11 seed, and were the first pick by the #3 seeded team (1512) in the selection draft. The alliance of 1512, 58, and 1517 progressed to the finals of the tournament -- team 58 was a major contributor to that alliance's success!

The driving of Team 58's robot was a joy to watch, and once they acquired the ball, there wasn't much of an opportunity for other teams to take it away. It was a joy to watch and was well-deserving of the General Motors Industrial Design Award it received.

As to whether or not there will still be a role for such herders at the Championships, I don't know, but Team 58 and their herding robot was definitely a factor at GSR!

[GBilletdeaux930]

I know everyones been talkin bout 148's speedy bot and just to add to that

148 went 16-0-0 at the St.Louis Regional... i think that gives robots who can't hurdle a place in this compition... if they can lap good enough

[JaneYoung]

What is interesting, from reading some of the threads regarding the regionals this past weekend - is how robots are adapting to play the game. That always happens but it is neat to read how quickly it is happening. What may be a robot that can lift or launch, is working as a lap bot for the alliance to strengthen it. Very cool. By the end of our 2nd week of regionals, I think we'll be seeing this even more, as more strategies and successes begin to surface.

[danshaffer]

I'm thinking three hurdlers.

When one hurdles there will be one waiting to get the ball for their attempt and one with the other ball racing around to hurdle.

An effective three team relay will be unstoppable.

Maybe in Atlanta, but you don't see that kind of depth of field in week one regionals, and probably not in very many other regional events (think about it: 24 decent hurdlers in a field of ~50)

[Akash Rastogi]

I won't say specifically who, but did anyone notice that the bots who broke their end effectors during the match were a little too preoccupied with trying to get a hold of a ball and in those 15-20 seconds could have been running laps the whole time. I let this go during practice but they should keep priorities in focus and try to get as many points possible for the alliance instead of wasting valuable time trying to grasp the ball.

The same principle went for herding the balls. Granted, there were bots that were very fast and their main goal was to drive their way to victory, but there were other sluggish lapbots that I think could have been herding the whole time and gaining more points. A couple of times this was because their alliance partners need the ball for hurdling (or to try to hurdle) but other than that, there was a lot of wasted time (or time and laps that could have been used more effectively). Anyone have comments on this?

-Rastogi

[Ken Streeter]

I don't know if it has happened elsewhere, but at this weekend's "Bear Brawl" in Springfield, MA, the winning alliance was composed entirely of robots which couldn't hurdle! (The tournament was played in 2-on-2 format, so this alliance only had two non-hurdlers.) For more details, see this post in the "Bear Brawl 2008" thread (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=769924&postcount=16).

[Akash Rastogi]

I don't know if it has happened elsewhere...

Happened in Chesapeake

1418- the only effective herder I saw all season
11- hurdler
2016- lapper

Took down 1st, 3rd, and 5th alliances.:cool:

Pretty sure it happened at a couple other places.

[Athleticgirl389]

Long Island Regional...

2487, 2010, 102... mixture of 2 hurdlers and a lap bot. And not being biased, but no one team on the alliance outshown another. In my eyes, all 3 alliance members carried the team to the win.

Personally, I thought haveing 3 hurdlers was silly. Yes, one shoots it over the one who doesn't have a ball can go right after it. But what if that's never the case? Having 6 big robots on the field can get pretty crazy. Having a robot smaller that could maneuver around them could be an advantage.

just my 2 cents

[Elgin Clock]

I don't know if it has happened elsewhere, but at this weekend's "Bear Brawl" in Springfield, MA, the winning alliance was composed entirely of robots which couldn't hurdle! (The tournament was played in 2-on-2 format, so this alliance only had two non-hurdlers.) For more details, see this post in the "Bear Brawl 2008" thread (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=769924&postcount=16).

Happened in Chesapeake
1418- the only effective herder I saw all season
11- hurdler
2016- lapper
Took down 1st, 3rd, and 5th alliances.:cool:
Pretty sure it happened at a couple other places.

Long Island Regional...
2487, 2010, 102... mixture of 2 hurdlers and a lap bot. And not being biased, but no one team on the alliance outshown another. In my eyes, all 3 alliance members carried the team to the win.


Ken's point which maybe you may have missed judging by your responses, was that there were only 2 partners on the winning alliance at Bear Brawl and 0 hurdlers involved. One was a lap bot, & one was a herder.

The true place for an alliance who could not hurdle at all was defined there with that win.

[R.C.]

Anyone have a vid of that 2v2 (the defining point of non hurdlers), was 148 involved in this comp.