View Full Version : Blocking a robot driving clock-wise
Sup ^^
A question to all u game rules experts-
is it legal to block a robot that is driving clock-wise? for example- blocking them while they try to drive backwards after an arm hurdle?
thanks alot,
Alon
team STeampunk 1577
hipsterjr
23-02-2008, 11:12
If you are talking about post hurdle and before they retract their arm. And by being behind them, you want keep them from being able to retract their arm.
I would say yes, this is legal (to a point) because they are no longer protected by the hurdling rule. But I would use caution in this strategy because of the excessive contact and possible severe damage to the hurdler may incur penalties for you. If do, please be gracious about it.
If you are talking about post hurdle and before they retract their arm. And by being behind them, you want keep them from being able to retract their arm.
I would say yes, this is legal (to a point) because they are no longer protected by the hurdling rule. But I would use caution in this strategy because of the excessive contact and possible severe damage to the hurdler may incur penalties for you. If do, please be gracious about it.Someone suggested something like this in the YMTC thread about blocking hurdlers. The problems with this strategy are two: First, you risk a pinning penalty (and remember, it's six seconds before the penalty, as opposed to ten). Second, that won't affect some arm/lift robots, so you just wasted your time.
Scott358
23-02-2008, 11:45
I'd suggest this is a viable defensive strategy against those hurdlers who have to reach over the overpass, then back up.
3 points to consider...
1. You may have to take the 6 second pinning rule into account (but it is a question as to whether or not parking behind someone without pushing them is pinning). This would be a FIRST Q&A question.
2. Depending upon your drive train and the hurdler's drive train, they may just push you out of the way and/or drive sideways and get away (if they have that capability).
3. It will depend upon the refs. Last year, there was not supposed to be intentional contact outside the bumper zone, but there where many defensive robots who used end effectors to stop offensive robots from scoring, and it was not called. I'd suggest a brief discussion with the head ref to see what he thinks about it if you plan on using this.
I look forward to hearing other comments, as we re-designed our robot just so we didn't have to reach over the overpass due to this defensive strategy.
Hi alon,
we have checked this possibillity a couple of times, and as stated by EricH above me, you would be penilized for pinning, if you dont move within 6 seconds:
<G41> Permitting To Pass - When a ROBOT has received a signal to pass (see Rule <G38>), or when the REFEREE signals that a ROBOT is pinning an opponent in place, the ROBOT shall have 6 seconds to move out of the way and create a “passing lane” to allow the opposing ROBOT through. ROBOTS that fail to do so within 6 seconds after the “signal to pass” shall receive a PENALTY. Repeated infractions will result in a YELLOW CARD being issued to the ROBOT.
see also G42 again and it will help clarify things out.
good luck in israeli regionals! :)
Hi alon,
we have checked this possibillity a couple of times, and as stated by EricH above me, you would be penilized for pinning, if you dont move within 6 seconds:
<G41> Permitting To Pass - When a ROBOT has received a signal to pass (see Rule <G38>), or when the REFEREE signals that a ROBOT is pinning an opponent in place, the ROBOT shall have 6 seconds to move out of the way and create a “passing lane” to allow the opposing ROBOT through. ROBOTS that fail to do so within 6 seconds after the “signal to pass” shall receive a PENALTY. Repeated infractions will result in a YELLOW CARD being issued to the ROBOT.
see also G42 again and it will help clarify things out.
good luck in israeli regionals! :)I disagree-if you are "behind" them in a counter-clockwise direction, you hitting them would (I think) be considered a signal to pass by you-this would mean that (unless they were hurdling), they would have to move within 6 seconds, not you.
Vikesrock
23-02-2008, 13:16
I disagree-if you are "behind" them in a counter-clockwise direction, you hitting them would (I think) be considered a signal to pass by you-this would mean that (unless they were hurdling), they would have to move within 6 seconds, not you.
However they cannot move because you are pinning them. You cannot force them to commit a penalty (don't feel like looking up the exact rule) and you are pinning so you are the one that has to move within six seconds.
I would guess that parking behind a robot that cannot move forward due to an appendage will constitute pinning.
The other interesting part of this situation is, does either team really want to be a part of what happens if you go to far and push them into the overpass, toppling them onto your robot?
However they cannot move because you are pinning them. You cannot force them to commit a penalty (don't feel like looking up the exact rule) and you are pinning so you are the one that has to move within six seconds.
I would guess that parking behind a robot that cannot move forward due to an appendage will constitute pinning.
The other interesting part of this situation is, does either team really want to be a part of what happens if you go to far and push them into the overpass, toppling them onto your robot?
If they truly could not move, then I guess they could not recieve a penalty and you would be considered impeding (actually didn't notice that part of the rule before!), but unless you are physically pinning their arm against the overpass I doubt that would frequently happen.
More likely, in terms of what I am picturing in my head (which is likely different from what is going on in yours), the robot-with-an-arm could probably get out by turning, etc., and if that was the case, I think arm-robot would be considered to be impeding, even if it could not immediately move forward or backward.
Vikesrock
23-02-2008, 13:49
If they truly could not move, then I guess they could not recieve a penalty and you would be considered impeding (actually didn't notice that part of the rule before!), but unless you are physically pinning their arm against the overpass I doubt that would frequently happen.
More likely, in terms of what I am picturing in my head (which is likely different from what is going on in yours), the robot-with-an-arm could probably get out by turning, etc., and if that was the case, I think arm-robot would be considered to be impeding, even if it could not immediately move forward or backward.
Ok, I see what you were talking about now. In that case I would agree. If the arm bot could get out by turning then you would not be pinning. However, I would suggest that the strategic benefits to parking behind an arm bot in a manner that it can still get away (albeit in a slightly longer amount of time) are negligible compared to driving past and either messing with their ball or continuing to score points for your alliance.
rules to the rescue :)
i am a freshman, but i understand that every word in the rules is there for a reason:
quote from the manual:
IMPEDING: Preventing or obstructing an opposing ROBOT’S ability to proceed around the TRACK in the direction of traffic.
therefor the robot behind the "arm-robot" can never be called impeding.
and remmember, bunping to pass signals are only possible when "there is no other lane to pass" so unless there are three hurdlers, you cant bump them.
if there are three hurdlers this rule falls in line:
<G43> IMPEDING With Multiple HURDLERS- If multiple ROBOTS are HURDLING simultaneously and effectively blocking the width of the TRACK, then opposing ROBOTS may signal to pass and the HURDLING ROBOT must clear a passing lane within 6 seconds. A PENALTY will be awarded to the HURDLING ROBOT for each violation.
which i think is really clear.
if i have left gray areas, plz let me know ;)
by the way, Alon, binyamina is also part of the Eyal Hershko Mafia so we are kind of allies.. feel free to call me for rule consultation at any time - 0528983573
Noah Kleinberg
23-02-2008, 14:00
Based on the way I read the rules, you only count as "impeding" a robot if you're keeping them from going counterclockwise, but not if you prevent them from going clockwise. ("IMPEDING: Preventing or obstructing an opposing ROBOT’S ability to proceed around the TRACK
in the direction of traffic."). G40 also says that a robot isn't considered impeding as long as there's a clear passing lane around the robot (this is also in G41 as far as pinning). The question is whether you would consider open space a "passing lane" if the hurdling robot's arm prevents it from using the space.
Edit: Someone beat me to it but I'll leave this here anyway.
Vikesrock
23-02-2008, 14:14
The main issue here would not be impeding. Both of you are correct in saying that according to the rules you would not be impeding by preventing motion on the clockwise direction.
The issue is pinning. According to <G41> (quoted below) a robot deemed to be pinning an opposing robot must move to allow the other robot out within 6 seconds of the pinning signal by the referee. If a robot has it's arm up so it cannot proceed forward without tipping and you are behind them such that they cannot back-up or turn I would say you are most certainly pinning and would have to move within 6 seconds of the referee signaling the pin.
<G41> Permitting To Pass - When a ROBOT has received a signal to pass (see Rule <G38>), or
when the REFEREE signals that a ROBOT is pinning an opponent in place, the ROBOT
shall have 6 seconds to move out of the way and create a “passing lane” to allow the
opposing ROBOT through. ROBOTS that fail to do so within 6 seconds after the “signal to
pass” shall receive a PENALTY. Repeated infractions will result in a YELLOW CARD being
issued to the ROBOT.
GaryVoshol
23-02-2008, 14:29
In past seasons - and we all know that what happened in the past is not necessarily how it will happen now - pinning was called only if a robot was physically holding another robot in contact with the wall or a field element. If there was room that the "pinned" robot could move back and forth, but maybe not maneouver to escape, that was considered to be a design fault of the "pinned" robot, not a penalty. However, once pinning did happen, the pinning robot had to move back 3 feet for 3 seconds, if I recall correctly.
The main issue here would not be impeding. Both of you are correct in saying that according to the rules you would not be impeding by preventing motion on the clockwise direction.
The issue is pinning. According to <G41> (quoted below) a robot deemed to be pinning an opposing robot must move to allow the other robot out within 6 seconds of the pinning signal by the referee. If a robot has it's arm up so it cannot proceed forward without tipping and you are behind them such that they cannot back-up or turn I would say you are most certainly pinning and would have to move within 6 seconds of the referee signaling the pin.
How are you meant to move in such a way that creates a passing lane for a robot in front of you?
Scott358
23-02-2008, 15:49
Hi alon,
we have checked this possibillity a couple of times, and as stated by EricH above me, you would be penilized for pinning, if you dont move within 6 seconds:
<G41> Permitting To Pass - When a ROBOT has received a signal to pass (see Rule <G38>), or when the REFEREE signals that a ROBOT is pinning an opponent in place, the ROBOT shall have 6 seconds to move out of the way and create a “passing lane” to allow the opposing ROBOT through. ROBOTS that fail to do so within 6 seconds after the “signal to pass” shall receive a PENALTY. Repeated infractions will result in a YELLOW CARD being issued to the ROBOT.
see also G42 again and it will help clarify things out.
good luck in israeli regionals! :)
Hello Ziv,
When you say you've "checked this possibility a couple times", who did you check with?
From what I see, "impeding" is preventing or obstructing an opposing ROBOT’S ability to proceed around the TRACK in the direction of traffic. This could mean that you have all rights to stop a robot from moving against the direction of traffic by merely parking behind them (as I would not suggest pushing a robot into the overpass).
Also, as Gary has stated (as defined by past experince) pinning was called on a robot that pushed another robot against a field element, but merely parking behind them would not be pushing them. As there is no clear definition of pinning (that I can find), but there is history that you need to be pushing a robot to be pinning them, this does not appear to be pinning.
I'd suggest the answer is not so clear unless asked directly to FIRST Q&A. I'll try to get hold of my team leader to ask, but if anyone else has direct access to ask questions, please do so.
Vikesrock
23-02-2008, 15:59
How are you meant to move in such a way that creates a passing lane for a robot in front of you?
This is a good point and it will be interesting to see how this situation shakes out if anyone tries it in the week one regionals. The same situation would apply if a robot was pointing towards one of the walls and you pinned them against it, they have a "passing lane" they just cannot go through it because their wheels are perpendicular to it (excluding holonomic systems). I definitely do not think that the intent of the rule was to allow pinning on either the overpass or the walls and I think referee calls will reflect this.
Hello Ziv,
When you say you've "checked this possibility a couple times", who did you check with?
From what I see, "impeding" is preventing or obstructing an opposing ROBOT’S ability to proceed around the TRACK in the direction of traffic. This could mean that you have all rights to stop a robot from moving against the direction of traffic by merely parking behind them (as I would not suggest pushing a robot into the overpass).
Also, as Gary has stated (as defined by past experince) pinning was called on a robot that pushed another robot against a field element, but merely parking behind them would not be pushing them. As there is no clear definition of pinning (that I can find), but there is history that you need to be pushing a robot to be pinning them, this does not appear to be pinning.
I'd suggest the answer is not so clear unless asked directly to FIRST Q&A. I'll try to get hold of my team leader to ask, but if anyone else has direct access to ask questions, please do so.
Does your robot have a parking brake? If not I can't imagine you would be much of a hindrance parking behind an opposing robot. Many robots will plow you out of the way like you aren't even there.
As you said, the only way that we'll truly know would be to ask the Q&A or to wait and see what happens in week 1.
EDIT- quote from Scott358:
I'd suggest the answer is not so clear unless asked directly to FIRST Q&A. I'll try to get hold of my team leader to ask, but if anyone else has direct access to ask questions, please do so.
*sorry but i dont know how to quote.. i thougt that will work =\ .
believe me Scott that i have already thought about asking in the First Q&A system, but our team is not very orginized, so no one has the login detailes =\. iwould love it if one of you guys could ask instead of me.
i have said that i have checked a couple of times with my teammates, the possibilty of nutrilizing an opponents robot in the way mwntioned, or at least make him do a lot of penelties. from what i saw, you cant "bump-to-pass" him if there is a lane free. if you stand there and prevent him from driving backwards, my guess is, as stated before, that the judges will give you a signal to clear the way, because you are pinning him.
hope i'm more clear this time.. sorry for the misunderstandings..
Is it possible to "hip check" an opposing robot?
Is it possible to "hip check" an opposing robot? It depends on your drivetrain, but I certainly don't see anything illegal about it... I'm not sure it would be interpreted as a "signal to pass", though.
It depends on your drivetrain, but I certainly don't see anything illegal about it... I'm not sure it would be interpreted as a "signal to pass", though.
I think it would be pretty obvious what the intent was.
Cleinhun
23-02-2008, 16:59
http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=8436
I think this answers that.
So, yes, it is allowed.
Vikesrock
23-02-2008, 17:05
http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=8436
I think this answers that.
So, yes, it is allowed.
Good find! Thank you very much.
GDC "There is no rule that would prohibit the blocking robot's action. There are also no rules that would prohibit an appropriate counter measure by your robot. This scenario would likely become a pushing match."
just to make sure i understood correctly- a pushing match means that we push each other and if i push him and manage to get a away good for me but if he pushes me and make me tip over? (not to mention i will be tipping over on him..) or even worse break some mechanism??
Kristian Calhoun
23-02-2008, 17:36
Does your robot have a parking brake? If not I can't imagine you would be much of a hindrance parking behind an opposing robot. Many robots will plow you out of the way like you aren't even there.
As you said, the only way that we'll truly know would be to ask the Q&A or to wait and see what happens in week 1.
Yes.
GDC "There is no rule that would prohibit the blocking robot's action. There are also no rules that would prohibit an appropriate counter measure by your robot. This scenario would likely become a pushing match."
just to make sure i understood correctly- a pushing match means that we push each other and if i push him and manage to get a away good for me but if he pushes me and make me tip over? (not to mention i will be tipping over on him..) or even worse break some mechanism??The GDC is right, as long as the robot that is doing the blocking isn't contacting the robot that is against the overpass. As soon as the blocking robot touches the other robot so it can't move, it's a pinning call.
If a robot intentionally tips another, they are given a Penalty, ranging up to a DQ.
Also, this discussion may be moot, because the arm robots probably have measures in place already to escape this. I'm pretty sure my team does--we've got two, or can easily have two given about ten minutes in the pits.
Vikesrock
23-02-2008, 18:11
The GDC is right, as long as the robot that is doing the blocking isn't contacting the robot that is against the overpass. As soon as the blocking robot touches the other robot so it can't move, it's a pinning call.
If a robot intentionally tips another, they are given a Penalty, ranging up to a DQ.
Also, this discussion may be moot, because the arm robots probably have measures in place already to escape this. I'm pretty sure my team does--we've got two, or can easily have two given about ten minutes in the pits.
My team as well. It wasn't really intentional, but the way we designed our system to fit in the starting configuration means that we will likely be able to just put our arm down and it should fold back up enough to allow us to clear the overpass, then we could jerk the robot forward and back or put the arm back up to unfold it again.
Scott358
23-02-2008, 18:17
Does your robot have a parking brake? If not I can't imagine you would be much of a hindrance parking behind an opposing robot. Many robots will plow you out of the way like you aren't even there.
Since you asked about a parking brake, we do have a program that utilizes encoder feedback to have the drive train attempt to maintain position (i.e. in a zero joystick position, if the encoders sense movement, the bot will attempt to get back to where it was moved from without need to touch the joysticks). I guess this is a type of parking brake?
Without a brake, a robot could also simply park sideways to execute this defense.
Last, once pushed back a bit, you could always push back yourself (which I believe is what the GDC is talking about in their response).
In the end, our robot is a hurdler (you can see the Team 358 video in the robot showcase) , so I don't see our robot playing this type of defensive role, as we'll be hurdling.
Scott358
23-02-2008, 18:28
The GDC is right, as long as the robot that is doing the blocking isn't contacting the robot that is against the overpass. As soon as the blocking robot touches the other robot so it can't move, it's a pinning call.
If a robot intentionally tips another, they are given a Penalty, ranging up to a DQ.
Also, this discussion may be moot, because the arm robots probably have measures in place already to escape this. I'm pretty sure my team does--we've got two, or can easily have two given about ten minutes in the pits.
When you say "as soon as the blocking robot touchs the other robot"... assuming the blocking robot is simply parked, it would be the hurdling robot making the contact.
This is important to note, as we had a situation a few years ago where we were putting a tetra on a goal (finals at the Philly regional), someone parked behind us, we backed up, they fell over and we were DQ'ed for tipping them!!!
When you say "as soon as the blocking robot touchs the other robot"... assuming the blocking robot is simply parked, it would be the hurdling robot making the contact.
Maybe I should have said, "contacts while driving." The point is that if the hurdling robot simply cannot move backwards, due to there being a robot parked behind them, the parked robot is pinning unless the hurdling robot can move forwards. And, as I said before, some folks with arms may have already figured this strategy out and rendered it useless.:D
Scott358
23-02-2008, 20:44
Maybe I should have said, "contacts while driving." The point is that if the hurdling robot simply cannot move backwards, due to there being a robot parked behind them, the parked robot is pinning unless the hurdling robot can move forwards. And, as I said before, some folks with arms may have already figured this strategy out and rendered it useless.:D
I agree if the blocking robot is pushing the other robot up against a field element and cannot move, that is pinning (as pinning implies the robot is pinned against something).
The way I see it is if the blocking robot is merely in the way of the other robot such that they cannot back up enough to lower their arm and drive forward, this would not be pinning (which I believe is confirmed per the GDC response).
In the end, it's not how you or I see it, but how the refs will call it (which can vary from regional to regional). As I stated earlier on, if anyone was to use this defensive strategy, I'd strongly suggest speaking to the head ref prior just to be sure.
As you stated, those with arms that extend over the overpass have hopefully figured this out already. We were concerned enough that we completely redesigned our arm/thrower in the last couple weeks prior to ship date!!!
As you stated, those with arms that extend over the overpass have hopefully figured this out already. We were concerned enough that we completely redesigned our arm/thrower in the last couple weeks prior to ship date!!!On my team, we figured we might want a little extra speed when hurdling from the get-go. I'm not sure if we can currently do what we need to do to get that speed/escape, but we've got other methods, and it's a quick fix if we need to.
LH Machinist
23-02-2008, 21:48
As Answered by GDC
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We've come up with a scenario where we place a Trackball on the Overpass and when we go to back up [to retract our arm/gripper mechanism], another robot blocks our path to back up [They haven't even touched us, they're just preventing us from backing up to retract the Arm/gripper and resume playing the game]. Would that warrant a penalty like when a robot rolls over top of our mechanism to impede us [3 seconds to get off] or be perfectly legal?
Thanks
Warlocks
FRC1507
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#2 01-28-2008, 03:30 PM
GDC
Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,393
Re: Blocking
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There is no rule that would prohibit the blocking robot's action. There are also no rules that would prohibit an appropriate counter measure by your robot. This scenario would likely become a pushing match.
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