Predictions: A cynical view of reality

[CraigHickman]

Well, normally I keep my opinions to myself, but I figure it would be fun to other's opinions on this.

Here's my prediction of the winning robot (winning being winning the most matches, and winning champs): We're going to see a low, small robot that can pick up the ball and throw it. It's going to be the simplest bot imaginable; a simple single or dual pneumatic (or other fast reloading mechanical) catapult, and a kitbot drive base. It's going to be FAST, both in robot max speed and driver to robot relations. It's going to have a very small, simple setup to knock down the ball, and the rest of the match will be spent hurdling the ball over the overpass, and running laps.

What we're NOT going to see: An enormous, beautifully engineered arm that can grab from any angle, pick the ball up, and get it over the pass. However wonderful these bots may be, they're just too shaky and too precise. We're not going to see an elevator, either. Any design that involves stopping, and lifting over will be weeded out before the finals on Einstein. We're going to see some of these huge arm-bots do very well, but in the end, it's going to be those low, fast throwers who will take champs.

Any thoughts on the winning bot design?

[Alex Cormier]

that all sounds good, but i think more of a strategy of 2 arm bots and 1 shooter will win it.

shooters are nice, arms a bit slow but can be used for a lot more then just hurdling over.

[CraigHickman]

shooters are nice, arms a bit slow but can be used for a lot more then just hurdling over.

...Like? From what I've seen in videos and so on, a shooter bot can do the same thing as an arm. That is, get the ball over the overpass in a much more efficient manner, which will allow the alliance to keep moving, and to score higher.

The game is all about high speed, and I can't see a tall, arm-based robot doing very well when it comes down to the ultra efficient KISS bots that are out there.

[Aren_Hill]

My Views Exactly, which is why my team built the bot it did.
we've spent time after proving each concept that went into it and rather just seeing that the concept worked, we improved upon it and we now have a robot that paints our picture of the fastest lap

a good shooter will beat a good arm any day

[Alex Cormier]

...Like? From what I've seen in videos and so on, a shooter bot can do the same thing as an arm. That is, get the ball over the overpass in a much more efficient manner, which will allow the alliance to keep moving, and to score higher.

The game is all about high speed, and I can't see a tall, arm-based robot doing very well when it comes down to the ultra efficient KISS bots that are out there.

not every bot needs to be moving around the track at all times to have a very effective match with a ultimate high score. it's just how well the alliance works together.

the shooters will make up for most of the elim bots, but there will still be at least one arm on each alliance i would guess.

[Alalea]

Not ours D:

Definity something hardy and strong. It needs to be able to take a beating.

[danshaffer]

wow craig...
you've clearly seen our bot!
that's really been our strategy all along, thanks for confirming it.
low, fast, and no nonsense with the overpass (no chance of clotheslining it)

[Mike Schreiber]

I agree, which slightly disappoints me. The team that can fit a ton of springs low to the ground with a speedy little way of cocking the thing and a ridiculously fast drive train is going to win. The placing is negligible because it is EASILY knocked back off, and one hurdle and a lap is only 2 less points, when the time spent placing is probably equivalent.

[CraigHickman]

Not ours D:

Definity something hardy and strong. It needs to be able to take a beating.

Yeah.

wow craig...
you've clearly seen our bot!

Actually, I have. But unrelated to that, when I said kitbot drive base, I meant to get across the idea of something simple, low, and light. An over complex 4 wheel ackerman crab is cool and all, but what this game needs is SPEED. So whatever the drive base will be, it will be FAST, and LIGHT.

[Scott Carpman]

The thing is, after looking at all the bot pictures that have been released, the percentage of shooters is somewhere between 10 and 20 percent.

[CraigHickman]

The thing is, after looking at all the bot pictures that have been released, the percentage of shooters is somewhere between 10 and 20 percent.

Yeah, hence the title of the thread. We're not going to see very many of these shooters, but the ones who learn to drive are going to go very very far.

[hipsterjr]

The game is all about high speed, and I can't see a tall, arm-based robot doing very well when it comes down to the ultra efficient KISS bots that are out there.

I completely agree. I think launchers modeled after design such as 1726 and 1629 will fufill your prediction.

[hallk]

a good shooter will beat a good arm any day

I disagree. I think it all comes down to how fast robots can pick up the trackballs. Yes, the shooter bots can hurdle faster but it seems like some of them take more time to get the ball into position then it does with an arm.

[Jaybee1405]

I think the winner on Einstein will be a back loading catapult and two "runners" (herding lapbots). The catapult will chill in its own home zone while the runners bring the two balls around to its back loader, followed by a quick launch over the overpass and then back at it. Every half lap would a hurdle.

I completely agree that arm/lift bots will not do as well as shooters.

[CraigHickman]

I completely agree. I think launchers modeled after design such as 1726 and 1629 will fufill your prediction.

Yep.

I actually didn't really want to throw team numbers into the mix, as some people somehow find a way to take offense whenever preference is shown to one team over another... But those two teams, in my opinion, have the BEST robot that has been posted. There's probably many of that kind of robot that we have yet to see, but until the regionals, we'll never know for sure.

[jgannon]

From what I've seen in videos and so on, a shooter bot can do the same thing as an arm.
I have yet to see a video of a shooter intentionally landing the ball on top of the overpass.

(Not that I happen to think it's all that important, but maybe it will turn out to be.)

[Aren_Hill]

One of the revisions for efficiency we've done on our bot was we got pickup rollers working direct drive off of globe motors, the range of places they could pick up from was amazing but once it grabbed it it took too long to come completely into the gripper, simple solution we took out a stage, now it works just as effictively just 5 times faster.

Robots that have been gone through and had every single function gone through for maximum speed will win, and maximum speed means no stopping when hurdling which throws most arms out the window.

[Jaybee1405]

I have yet to see a video of a shooter intentionally landing the ball on top of the overpass.

(Not that I happen to think it's all that important, but maybe it will turn out to be.)

A. 1726 does it consistently.
B. It won't make any difference.

[Aren_Hill]

I disagree. I think it all comes down to how fast robots can pick up the trackballs. Yes, the shooter bots can hurdle faster but it seems like some of them take more time to get the ball into position then it does with an arm.

When i say "good shooter" i mean good in all aspects including ball acquisition, the performance of a robot depends on all systems functions at top notch performance which is what i intended to say for both the "good shooter" and "good arm"

[=Martin=Taylor=]

Well, normally I keep my opinions to myself, but I figure it would be fun to other's opinions on this.

Here's my prediction of the winning robot (winning being winning the most matches, and winning champs): We're going to see a low, small robot that can pick up the ball and throw it. It's going to be the simplest bot imaginable; a simple single or dual pneumatic (or other fast reloading mechanical) catapult, and a kitbot drive base. It's going to be FAST, both in robot max speed and driver to robot relations. It's going to have a very small, simple setup to knock down the ball, and the rest of the match will be spent hurdling the ball over the overpass, and running laps.

What we're NOT going to see: An enormous, beautifully engineered arm that can grab from any angle, pick the ball up, and get it over the pass. However wonderful these bots may be, they're just too shaky and too precise. We're not going to see an elevator, either. Any design that involves stopping, and lifting over will be weeded out before the finals on Einstein. We're going to see some of these huge arm-bots do very well, but in the end, it's going to be those low, fast throwers who will take champs.

Any thoughts on the winning bot design?

Yup. Thats it in a nut-shell. Although 118 certianly doesn't use a kit-bot frame :D

I might also add that the perfect design would use rollers/wheels to pick up the ball. Nothing beats rollers in terms of speed. Some of the before mentioned robots seem pretty fast at shooting... But lets see a video of them catching the ball again (with the exception of 1625)

[Jaybee1405]

I disagree. I think it all comes down to how fast robots can pick up the trackballs. Yes, the shooter bots can hurdle faster but it seems like some of them take more time to get the ball into position then it does with an arm.

Look at 118. They're one of the fastest ball acquirers (sp) I've seen, shooter or lift.

[CraigHickman]

Yup. Thats it in a nut-shell. Although 118 certianly doesn't use a kit-bot frame :D

I might also add that the perfect design would use rollers/wheels to pick up the ball. Nothing beats rollers in terms of speed.

Not to diss on 118, but I think their setup is too complex. This year is about speed, which means you're going to have some HARD collisions. Their turret seemed a bit wobbly in the videos they've posted, and I don't know if it can take a heavy hit.

Yeah, I agree with the rollers. However, some teams will have pneumatic or otherwise powered lifters, that can load very efficiently (faster than any arm I've seen out there).

[gurellia53]

...Like? From what I've seen in videos and so on, a shooter bot can do the same thing as an arm. That is, get the ball over the overpass in a much more efficient manner, which will allow the alliance to keep moving, and to score higher.

THANKYOU :D

I've seen a lot of generalizations about launchers (and arm-bots) on CD, particularly this (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63474)thread.

I agree that there will be launchers in the finals. I think there might be a few amazing arm bots, but for the most part, launchers will be the dominating design.

[T3_1565]

I agree with some of the ideas you posted but not some of the others

Speed is the most important thing this competition, but I don't think the fastest bot will win.

Shooters will have a really good chance, but I don't think three shooters will be the best alliance. Although they are well designed and speedy and simple, they will need the help of the taller more precise arm bots in a tight spot.

This is simply because a well designed arm bot will have a very hard time missing a hurdler, whereas a shooter could end up hitting other bots with the ball or be slightly off with aim, etc.

If a shooter can't get the ball off, then game over. Now I know most of them can, but some can't, and some can't consiently.

If a shooter can't get to his spot to shoot from, then he can't score, from what I see, they have a loose grip on the ball and can get stripped easier then arm bots, therefore, may have a harder time getting the ball to begin with.


I think the best alliance will be a shooter an arm bot and a racer. and TEAMWORK will win the matches. Arm bots getting the ball to the shooters, racers playing pick and letting the other bots get around the opposing team, arm bots place and picking off. Teamwork, Teamwork, Teamwork, will win this game, there is no way a single bot can do it alone this year.

Good Luck everyone!

[BHS_STopping]

Well, I certainly wouldn't call your views on the predicted strength of certain designs to be cynical, although I do understand where you're coming from.

My opinion is that the simplest design is the best. Sure, you could have a fast firing catapult design, but if it's complex and potentially unreliable, I would definitely favor a simpler, more robust arm/elevator design. I believe that in this year's game, each design will have its strengths and weaknesses, and I don't really see a need to downplay any strategy or approach other teams come up with. Remember, things can quickly change during the season, and more often than not, your viewpoint on the whole subject can change drastically!

I'm not going to make any predictions yet, but I will say that your points are well reasoned. However, if I had to venture a guess as to this year's winning alliance, I believe that all robots will be fast and maneuverable. Swerve drive, I've seen, has quite a tremendous advantage over other robots, in that it makes ball manipulation incredibly simple after a successful hurdle, as well as dodging other robots who may deliberately block you from getting your trackball back (trust me, as a driver, picking up the ball after launching it over can easily take up a significant amount of your match time if you don't have a decent picker-upper). Also, I do see an advantage in catapult designs, in that they're fast. However, I have noticed that after a ball is launched, it can react quite unpredictably and can take quite a long time to settle down afterwards.

I believe that a strong robot will be maneuverable, fast, and have a quick and reliable hurdling mechanism. Based purely on intuition, I would say that the winning alliance for this year's competition will consist of two strong, maneuverable shooters, along with a fast arm robot capable of running laps, recovering trackballs, and "defending" against opponents.

But who knows? I'm sure any FIRST veteran knows that one must expect the unexpected (our team knows that all too well, by the way :yikes:), I guess we'll just have to see how the rest of the season plays out!:D

[Aren_Hill]

One huge things i've noticed with all the videos people have been putting up, very few of these videos actually show the robot completing a hurdle reacquiring the ball and completing a hurdle. i know in ours at least theres video of almost 5 complete laps from hurdle to grab to hurdle to grab and so on. showing the systems efficieny


this thread is averaging a post per minute...

[Jaybee1405]

Not to diss on 118, but I think their setup is too complex. This year is about speed, which means you're going to have some HARD collisions. Their turret seemed a bit wobbly in the videos they've posted, and I don't know if it can take a heavy hit.

Evidently that was their practice bot in the vid, and with 3 (maybe more) years of experience with turrets, I'm sure 118 knows how to make it secure.

Just saying this because I think that right now 118 has the best chance out of anyone to be nat'l champs.

[Alalea]

Our robot...can't hurdle *cringe* *cries* We're so screwed!

[Jaybee1405]

Our robot...can't hurdle *cringe* *cries* We're so screwed!

Doubt it. Like I said, I think the most successful alliances will have 1 great shooter and 2 great runners.

You have to remember theres 3 robots and 2 trackballs. Someone will be left without a ball.

[BHS_STopping]

And by the way, before I forget, a fast and effective ball-knocker-offer is also a valuable asset to any alliance! After watching some of the scrimmage videos, I noticed that it took quite a long time before all balls were on the track.

Perhaps that could play another key role this year?

[Alalea]

Doubt it. Like I said, I think the most successful alliances will have 1 great shooter and 2 great runners.

You have to remember theres 3 robots and 2 trackballs. Someone will be left without a ball.

True...we have a very efficient method of knocking the ball of the shelf, so that's good :D

[CraigHickman]

I agree with some of the ideas you posted but not some of the others

Speed is the most important thing this competition, but I don't think the fastest bot will win.

Shooters will have a really good chance, but I don't think three shooters will be the best alliance. Although they are well designed and speedy and simple, they will need the help of the taller more precise arm bots in a tight spot.

This is simply because a well designed arm bot will have a very hard time missing a hurdler, whereas a shooter could end up hitting other bots with the ball or be slightly off with aim, etc.

If a shooter can't get the ball off, then game over. Now I know most of them can, but some can't, and some can't consiently.

If a shooter can't get to his spot to shoot from, then he can't score, from what I see, they have a loose grip on the ball and can get stripped easier then arm bots, therefore, may have a harder time getting the ball to begin with.

Huzzah for generalities! My opinion on the bot was VERY specific. Let me address these concerns, as I may not have been clear enough...

Speed IS the most important thing. When I say speed, I don't mean raw FPS, I mean cycle time, from gathering, to lapping, to hurdling. The teams that are able to do this fastest will win.

I believe I said something along the lines of the most practiced shooters being the ones to win. These low, fast bots that we'll see will rarely miss; in fact, they'll have the power of their shots dialed in so precisely, they'll be able to throw at just the right power to remove most possibility of the ball going out of play.

Again, in my original description, the winning bots are going to be able to knock the ball off with a simple mechanism (heck, a stick with a pneumatic attached can do this really well, why make anything more complex to do the same job?).

All of the shooter bots I've seen have a very strong grip on the ball.

Think of it from a drive perspective... You can either have around 10 functions, and have to worry about precise placement, or you can drive by at high speed, and hit the "bang" button to score. Much easier, right? So why do anything else?

One more thing... If the other alliance gets a ball up onto the overpass for the ending points, what's to stop an experienced shooter from hitting said ball with theirs, from below the overpass? It's all about practice, and being able to gather the ball FAST after shooting.

[Jetweb]

I'm not so sure that game play is going to be the deciding factor. In the regionals it will be what wins but once you get to nationals it always seems to come down to bonus points and the on field scores are usually almost the same on both alliances. This year that is Hybrid and finishing with the ball on the rack.

The fast hurdlers will be shut down by defense in some way or another.

[=Martin=Taylor=]

Not to diss on 118, but I think their setup is too complex. This year is about speed, which means you're going to have some HARD collisions. Their turret seemed a bit wobbly in the videos they've posted, and I don't know if it can take a heavy hit.

Yeah, I agree with the rollers. However, some teams will have pneumatic or otherwise powered lifters, that can load very efficiently (faster than any arm I've seen out there).

They've been building those turrets since 2004. They know what they're doing.

[CraigHickman]

They've been building those turrets since 2004. They know what they're doing.

Yeah, forgot about that... They're probably going to get it tightened up, and then they're truly frightening.

[Lil' Lavery]

I have my reasons, that I'd rather not share publicly at this time, to say that, shooters will not dominate at all levels. Ultimately, at the championship level, it will require a well-oiled ALLIANCE (with shooters or arms, depending on the individual match-ups, alliance captains, and structures) to win Atlanta.
Ultimately each individual design aspect dictates certain aspects of play for each robot, and not to pick on the robots mentioned (which I do love their designs), they have some major flaws. 1629 cannot remove the ball from the overpass, which means that their alliance partners will have to do it for them, and in scenarios with only one other "hurdling" partner it may be entirely possible that that team has to do double the work, and invest double the time, removing balls. Additionally, compare this pick-up (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yx013kkWBE) to that of a roller (http://youtube.com/watch?v=e9lGiQ2-y0A) claw (http://youtube.com/watch?v=VUYkJ9CI0J8&feature=related). There is a noticeable time difference, and namely, field element difference between the two (ie, niether 1625 nor 401 used the aid of the wall). This can be especially critical under real field conditions where teams will rarely get clean, unchallenged attempts to acquire the ball.
There are certain advantages to the position, height, geometry, and factors of hurdling with an arm/elevator that will become clear as the game evolves, especially in well thought-out machines. There are also disadvantages to the positions, heights, geometry, and factors of hurdling with a shooter.
That being said, I see many shooters being very competitive, but ultimately both designs will be very viable, and in the right alliances could win Atlanta very easily.

[Aren_Hill]

The only issue i can see with 1726 style catapults, and im naming that as a style of catapult not that team specifically. Is the pickup mechanism 2 forks that have to be timed and lifted at just the right time isn't the most efficient controlled way to do it.

we learned that lesson last year switching from an arm that had a claw that had to be closed by the operator when the tube was in to a roller design that touched the tube and we had it.

[Jaybee1405]

ALL FEAR BALLACUDA

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/img/bfa/bfabae1694f1fb434e746ef8dc25d13c_m.jpg

[TheOtherGuy]

The only issue i can see with 1726 style catapults, and im naming that as a style of catapult not that team specifically. Is the pickup mechanism 2 forks that have to be timed and lifted at just the right time isn't the most efficient controlled way to do it.


Oh, I don't know, it's pretty easy when there's a button on the lifter and the pickup is automated ;)
(and the lifter mechanism is 1 piece actuated by 1 piston....)

BTW, as stated in another thread, I'm waiting for a "bounce-catch"...

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/4228/bouncecatchin2.gif

[CraigHickman]

I have my reasons, that I'd rather not share publicly at this time, to say that, shooters will not dominate at all levels. Ultimately, at the championship level, it will require a well-oiled ALLIANCE (with shooters or arms, depending on the individual match-ups, alliance captains, and structures) to win Atlanta.

Yeah, I agree that it takes a whole alliance to win, but my point lies elsewhere. Even though it's an alliance that wins, there is usually one robot who has the MOST wins, and the MOST points (ie, 25 in Aim High). I have a feeling that bot will be a low, fast shooter, and not a larger arm based system.

[T3_1565]

Huzzah for generalities! My opinion on the bot was VERY specific. Let me address these concerns, as I may not have been clear enough...

Speed IS the most important thing. When I say speed, I don't mean raw FPS, I mean cycle time, from gathering, to lapping, to hurdling. The teams that are able to do this fastest will win.

I believe I said something along the lines of the most practiced shooters being the ones to win. These low, fast bots that we'll see will rarely miss; in fact, they'll have the power of their shots dialed in so precisely, they'll be able to throw at just the right power to remove most possibility of the ball going out of play.

Again, in my original description, the winning bots are going to be able to knock the ball off with a simple mechanism (heck, a stick with a pneumatic attached can do this really well, why make anything more complex to do the same job?).

All of the shooter bots I've seen have a very strong grip on the ball.

Think of it from a drive perspective... You can either have around 10 functions, and have to worry about precise placement, or you can drive by at high speed, and hit the "bang" button to score. Much easier, right? So why do anything else?

One more thing... If the other alliance gets a ball up onto the overpass for the ending points, what's to stop an experienced shooter from hitting said ball with theirs, from below the overpass? It's all about practice, and being able to gather the ball FAST after shooting.



You seem to misunderstand my points.

I have no problems with shooters, I will say they are the best bots in the competition, not taking anything away from them.

My point about speed was based upon the slowest bot on the field. Shooters can't shoot with a robot in the way, shooters can't keep running the track with a robot in the way. The fastest BALL will win. How the team moves the ball around the slower bots, around the traffic jams, around the flipped bots, is not something a shooter can do, and if it can then so be it, but from what I see, all shooters seem to have a very short gripper.

So if the shooter is slowed down by the other team, to the point of being as slow as an arm bot (I have seen some fast arms this year) then which has the better chance?

As I said, I don't think you can rely on 1 bot this year, and shooters try to get everything done on there own. (or so it seems on the videos) The lack of precision will not allow for ball passing across the middle to avoid a traffic jam in the far corner, will not allow for you to knock balls out of the other teams grippers, and other strategic moves.

As I said teamwork will win this year!

[Aren_Hill]

Oh, I don't know, it's pretty easy when there's a button on the lifter and the pickup is automated ;)
(and the lifter mechanism is 1 piece actuated by 1 piston....)

BTW, as stated in another thread, I'm waiting for a "bounce-catch"...

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/4228/bouncecatchin2.gif

Now that is exactly what im talking about when i say streamlined for efficiency, exactly it.

[Jaybee1405]

Additionally, compare this pick-up (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yx013kkWBE) to that of a roller (http://youtube.com/watch?v=e9lGiQ2-y0A) claw (http://youtube.com/watch?v=VUYkJ9CI0J8&feature=related). There is a noticeable time difference, and namely, field element difference between the two (ie, niether 1625 nor 401 used the aid of the wall). This can be especially critical under real field conditions where teams will rarely get clean, unchallenged attempts to acquire the ball.

While many shooters do struggle with a quick pickup, look at 118 (sorry to keep using them). Add one lateral piston and you have an even quicker pickup than a roller or claw.

[Jaybee1405]

Oh, I don't know, it's pretty easy when there's a button on the lifter and the pickup is automated ;)
(and the lifter mechanism is 1 piece actuated by 1 piston....)

BTW, as stated in another thread, I'm waiting for a "bounce-catch"...

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/4228/bouncecatchin2.gif

Look at that backspin. Probably a sand wedge.

[TheOtherGuy]

Yea, I kinda exaggerated the backspin, and I also kinda suck at animating,,, ;)

But you get the idea, at least...

[hipsterjr]

(heck, a stick with a pneumatic attached can do this really well, why make anything more complex to do the same job?).



That is exactly what we did. We used a poll and a 1.5" cylinder to knock off the ball. we have a "1726 style" bot that is honestly my favorite of the 4 years I've been on the team. I am hoping more bots of this style pop up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W10F7X8a_LE

[Jaybee1405]

Yea, I kinda exaggerated the backspin, and I also kinda suck at animating,,, ;)

But you get the idea, at least...

Put some grooves (like a golf club) and grip material on your catapult arm (1726) and see what happens.

[Lil' Lavery]

Yeah, I agree that it takes a whole alliance to win, but my point lies elsewhere. Even though it's an alliance that wins, there is usually one robot who has the MOST wins, and the MOST points (ie, 25 in Aim High). I have a feeling that bot will be a low, fast shooter, and not a larger arm based system.

I get what you're saying, but I'm saying that ultimately we won't be able to call that yet. It's going to depend on each robots alliance composition over the course of the year, as I don't think any design will have the tools to dominate every single match in this game. 2008 is a much more alliance structured game than 2006 or 2007, and it will be very very difficult for individual robots to dominate once teams realize techniques they can use to stop them. They only way I see one team dominating every match is if 148/1519 and their super-lapping friends end up being correct and laps ultimately make the difference more than anything else (which is yet to be seen, and I definitely have my opinions on this matter). Otherwise as close as we'll get to seeing a robot dominate are the robots that can combine the strengths of each system while minimizing the weaknesses. So far there has been only a couple teams that have shown me that they have enough advantages to even have the possible potential to take over a match, and none have enough to guarantee it for me.

[danshaffer]

I have yet to see a video of a shooter intentionally landing the ball on top of the overpass.

(Not that I happen to think it's all that important, but maybe it will turn out to be.)

we can do it... i'll post a video if we actually manage to pull it off

[TheOtherGuy]

Here's one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCzQ9kYlWWA

[Scott Carpman]

we can do it... i'll post a video if we actually manage to pull it off

At the 1:21 mark of this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oe8c_sNlXYc), we show one of our drivers attempting to do just that. After a few tries, they manage to successfully launch for placement 4 out of every 5 times.

[danshaffer]

At the 1:21 mark of this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oe8c_sNlXYc), we show one of our drivers attempting to do just that. After a few tries, they manage to successfully launch for placement 4 out of every 5 times.

yeah, but you first have to find the right position... fortunately we can do it with a simple rangefinder, or maybe with something even simpler... the flag! 51" flag rule doesn't have to be a drag, it can be a design feature!

[Optimizer]

I'm not so sure that game play is going to be the deciding factor. In the regionals it will be what wins but once you get to nationals it always seems to come down to bonus points and the on field scores are usually almost the same on both alliances. This year that is Hybrid and finishing with the ball on the rack.

The fast hurdlers will be shut down by defense in some way or another.

The thing about shooters is that they have to make sure they are in just the right spot, just like everybody else, right? They are usually faster, in the actual act, but they also have a harder time chasing after the ball afterward, and usually have a harder time grabbing. Mostly - as you imply - they generally can't place, and that can mean big points at the end.

But your best point is what everybody else has missed -the importance of Hybrid Period. The best teams may score 1/3 to 1/2 of their points in that period!!

[Madison]

Here's one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCzQ9kYlWWA

Drive around the field a few times, then do it.

Rinse. Repeat.

[GUI]

The thing about shooters is that they have to make sure they are in just the right spot, just like everybody else, right? They are usually faster, in the actual act, but they also have a harder time chasing after the ball afterward, and usually have a harder time grabbing. Mostly - as you imply - they generally can't place, and that can mean big points at the end.

But your best point is what everybody else has missed -the importance of Hybrid Period. The best teams may score 1/3 to 1/2 of their points in that period!!

I think you are overestimating the importance of placing the ball at the end. If you place it and drive under the overpass you only get 4 more points than if you hurdle and drive under.

[TheOtherGuy]

The thing about shooters is that they have to make sure they are in just the right spot, just like everybody else, right? They are usually faster, in the actual act, but they also have a harder time chasing after the ball afterward, and usually have a harder time grabbing. Mostly - as you imply - they generally can't place, and that can mean big points at the end.


Shooter's will have just as hard a time if not easier a time of tracking down the ball than arm-bots. The grabbing mechanism has almost nothing to do with the design. I've seen tons of good grabbers on shooters and arm-bots alike, and several mediocre ones.

[AdamHeard]

I think there are some arm bots that will be very useful alliance partners.

I have seen several arm bots that can pick up the ball at full speed (one was 17 fps) without having to stop (won't divulge team numbers as these videos haven't been posted online yet, well 973 is one, but that's my team...). Now, they may not hurdle as fast, but they are definitely better at picking up the ball than any shooter bot I've seen videos of (1625 is pretty close though).

[Aren_Hill]

I think you are overestimating the importance of placing the ball at the end. If you place it and drive under the overpass you only get 4 more points than if you hurdle and drive under.

exactly another insight that influenced our bot, it doesn't make too much sense to sacrifice efficiency elsewhere in the match for something that'll get you 4 more points. When by having a faster design you'll easily outweigh that 4 point gap

(1625 is pretty close though).
woot lol

[BHS_STopping]

Drive around the field a few times, then do it.

Rinse. Repeat.

Well, we have driven around the field a few times and landed it on the overpass (probably by virtue of sheer luck, though), but it certainly is possible. However, I don't think it's really worth the risk of firing to late/early and then end up not being able to clear the overpass or having the ball bounce off the overpass and hit your robot.

I'm sure with practice, people may be able to do it on the move. But until then, I don't think that the extra 4 points is really worth risking a hurdle over. Plus, I'm sure it would be easy for another team to knock the trackball off, anyway, so again, I think that an endgame hurdle would be the most effective idea for a shooter to implement here.

[GaryVoshol]

I think you are overestimating the importance of placing the ball at the end. If you place it and drive under the overpass you only get 4 more points than if you hurdle and drive under.But if you find yourself in the other alliance's home stretch as time is expiring, and you manage to put the ball on top, you get 12 points more than if you didn't.

[Optimizer]

I think you are overestimating the importance of placing the ball at the end. If you place it and drive under the overpass you only get 4 more points than if you hurdle and drive under.

Not if you're in the Opposition Lane!!

[Lil' Lavery]

I think you are overestimating the importance of placing the ball at the end. If you place it and drive under the overpass you only get 4 more points than if you hurdle and drive under.

That's true in some situations, but not all. Hurdles only count over your half of the overpass, placing counts on both halves. There are going to be scenarios where you have the time to hurdle on your half, drive halfway around the track, and place (where you wouldn't have time for another full lap to hurdle). That's a 12 point difference right there, rather than just 4.

edit: Optimizer just beat me.

[BHS_STopping]

That's true in some situations, but not all. Hurdles only count over your half of the overpass, placing counts on both halves. There are going to be scenarios where you have the time to hurdle on your half, drive halfway around the track, and place (where you wouldn't have time for another full lap to hurdle). That's a 12 point difference right there, rather than just 4.

edit: Optimizer just beat me.

That's a pretty good point. I think it's open to interpretation, though, because a shooter robot could potentially get one more hurdle per match than a standard arm robot (that is, if it's fast enough), so the bonus may or may not play a significant role at the end of of a match if the shooter is quicker overall.

This could potentially be an important quality for a robot to have, as a last minute bonus on the opposing stretch of the track could mean the match for a certain alliance.

Ah, well, I guess practice day is going to be devoted to placing a ball on the overpass!

[Aren_Hill]

Not if you're in the Opposition Lane!!

when your stuck in that position yes you are at a slight disadvantage to an arm bot, yet you still have options, such as knock off the opponents ball if it happens to be there, making up 12 points essentially. I know our bot and the robotnauts can do a well aimed diagonal shot to complete a hurdle

[Optimizer]

Shooter's will have just as hard a time if not easier a time of tracking down the ball than arm-bots. The grabbing mechanism has almost nothing to do with the design. I've seen tons of good grabbers on shooters and arm-bots alike, and several mediocre ones.

Let's just say I'm glad my team won't be up against #1625! Yikes!! :eek:

But the main point is that Hybrid Period may be critical. It's potential importance is apparently new, and may catch many veteran teams off-guard.

[Optimizer]

That's true in some situations, but not all. Hurdles only count over your half of the overpass, placing counts on both halves. There are going to be scenarios where you have the time to hurdle on your half, drive halfway around the track, and place (where you wouldn't have time for another full lap to hurdle). That's a 12 point difference right there, rather than just 4.

edit: Optimizer just beat me.

... and GaryVoshol beat me! :)

[GUI]

when your stuck in that position yes you are at a slight disadvantage to an arm bot, yet you still have options, such as knock off the opponents ball if it happens to be there, making up 12 points essentially. I know our bot and the robotnauts can do a well aimed diagonal shot to complete a hurdle

With a well design ball knocker offer, it would be unnecessary to waste time and energy launching to knock off. It would be much more effective to try to land the ball on the overpass then knock down opponents' balls with the same mechanism used to knock them off at the beginning.

[ALIBI]

The thing about shooters is that they have to make sure they are in just the right spot, just like everybody else, right? They are usually faster, in the actual act, but they also have a harder time chasing after the ball afterward, and usually have a harder time grabbing. Mostly - as you imply - they generally can't place, and that can mean big points at the end.

But your best point is what everybody else has missed -the importance of Hybrid Period. The best teams may score 1/3 to 1/2 of their points in that period!!


I will have to disagree with your generalizations of a shooter. There will be shooters that can launch from at least half of their home zones using a variable launch angle. There will also be shooters that can launch over the center divider. Please explain why a shooter will have a more difficult time grabbing the trackball after a hurdle. In practice, after a shooter hurdles, the trackball typically ends up against or near the opposite wall where it is very easy to pick up. There will be shooters that can grab a trackball as fast as any armbot and at the same time have the trackball loaded for another hurdle. Granted, most shooters will not be able to place, however, there will be shooters that can remove the trackball very affectively. I do agree that Hybrid will eventually produce at least a third of an alliances points.

[BHS_STopping]

Or, what would be an even more effective (albeit amazing) idea would be to launch your ball into an opponent's trackball (which is sitting atop the overpass) in such a way that your ball lands on the overpass after it knocks off the opponent's ball! Instant 24 point difference!

Forgive my musings. It's late, and I've had a bit too much Dr. Pepper today...

[pafwl]

I have read pretty much all of the post on this thread and I am impressed with many of the arguments

Just so you know where I am comming from our robot is a shooter. It however does not use pnematics to "shoot" "launch" the ball. Go to www.frc272.com and maybe you can figure out how we do it. Look under "We are LC" "2008 season". Anyway our robot also employes an alternate aparatus that can effectivelly remove the ball from the "monkey bars" "rack" whatever it is you call it.

However I am not at all saying this is the way to do it. We just like that fact that we can move on the fly and shoot. Also since we can remove the ball from the rack using an alternate aparatus we like it. Anyway

I have been lookin at a whole lot of video of other robots and I believe it just comes down to speed, quickness of picking up the ball and if you are a lifter doing it as fast as possible. If you have all of that I do not care how you do it you are getting it done fast and often and probably can keep up with anyone.

I also read some threads about it is easy to block a "shooter" "launcher" and while I would agree with that. I would recommend to teams you avoid it. Just as an example I had one of those moments and walked in front of our completed robot just as it fired. That ball almost took my head off. In retrospect it was very funny but the forces of that fire took a 210 pound man and put him on the floor. I just think if a lifter decided to get in the way and took a shoot either the robot may sustain fatal damage our it might be out for the count if you catch my drift.

Any who I think in the end if you built a great robot no matter how it scores if it is quick, accurate and efficient. Oh and a killer autonomous/hybrid would not hurt it really wont matter.

[MrForbes]

It looks to me like the 1726 robot will hurdle reliably if we are moving fast, and will be able to place the ball reasonably reliably if we stop before shooting.

I expect several teams with shooters will discover this is the case.

Now, about that backspin generator....(oops! that's a secret, isn't it?)

[lukevanoort]

In my view, good shooters will dominate good arms. Good arms will dominate bad shooters. Bad arms will just lose. I also think that we will see more good arms than good shooters (teams have more experience with arms), so good arms will appear to be the winning design for many competitions. In other words, I agree with Craig's basic idea, but disagree in practice.

As for placing capability, I feel that it will win many qualification matches, especially early on, but not as many elimination matches. Kind of like dumpers in '06; a good dumper won lots of qualifiers, but they had to find a good shooter or two to ally with for elims or else they were toast. In contrast, I think at least one divisional final, and possibly the whole championship, will be decided by placing (like the balls in 2002). At that level, both alliances are capable of scoring ludicrous amounts of points - it'll be that small little boost that pushes one to beat the other.

edit: Optimizer just beat me.
*chuckle* Naturally, since he is optimized.

[Jeff K.]

Hurdling doesn't seem to be the hard part. From scrimmage videos so far, picking up seems to be the worst, just because of the traffic jams and balls everywhere. A robot that can quickly get a hold of the ball and into its possession will waste less time there, and be able to get to hurdling faster. For hurdling, the teams that I think will do well are the ones that get the ball just over the overpass. The ones that launch and shoot it way over will waste time having to chase after that ball or the other ball.

I agree that cycle time will be important. Hurdling fast, but pick up slowly doesn't have an advantage to a robot that can pick up quickly, but just hurdle at a medium rate.

No one still really doesn't know what a true winning strategy is because we don't have many repeated 3v3 matches to see what works best. Saying that one robot on an alliance will win is probably just your own preference for a winning design. Also who knows, it may be like last year where ramps became biggest part. It may turn out that no one can reliably pick up and hurdle balls with 5 other robots trying to get around the field.

[Mike Schreiber]

I think the chaos will be cause for much flipping, flimsy arms and overly precise arms won't help either, but as said above, we have no hard evidence except for scrimmage videos...this is all speculation. I'm not sure many people would have called that the ramps would decide the game last year. Who knows...

[waialua359]

I just read all of this and see a general pattern. Generalizing shooters, arms, and racer bots. We forget that each team will have diffferent degrees as to how effective they will be with their respective designs.
Driving and practice makes a big difference. How many times have I seen the Poofs win regional competitions simply because they were the best drivers out there, making very few mistakes, working with great efficiency. They maximized the capabilities of their robots consistently, regional to regional, year to year. That's what impresses me the most about them.

How teams setup controls of their robots are key too?
I had two sets of drivers practice with our robot and it was like night and day. One group had me thinking that our robot couldn't even hurdle. The other group allowed me to sleep that night, proving that our design worked.:D

Is it safe to say that every year, the best designed robots and best alliances dont always win, for one reason or another.
I still cant believe the Poofs havent won a world championship yet????

[R.C.]

hey guys i understand that shooters are great.

But who gets the ball off, the arms or lifts.
Who puts it back on? launchers are built on the fact that someone takes the ball off for you. Giys check out 1323's bot and that arm can go up and down in 2 seconds (help of gas springs). It has wheels to suck it in. I think the arms are ideal this year, not to diss the launchers. Also the arms can do every function of this years game

-rc

[hillale]

hey guys i understand that shooters are great.

But who gets the ball off, the arms or lifts.
Who puts it back on? launchers are built on the fact that someone takes the ball off for you. Giys check out 1323's bot and that arm can go up and down in 2 seconds (help of gas springs). It has wheels to suck it in. I think the arms are ideal this year, not to diss the launchers. Also the arms can do every function of this years game

-rc

Several arm robots this year have shown completely seperate mechanisms for ball removal when it comes to the rack. It goes without saying that shooters in general will have a more interesting time of replacing the ball upon the rack, if they decide to travel that road. However there will be some shooters that will be able to reliably place back on the rack for end game bonuses. I have enough faith in first teams to believe that. There is no reason why a shooter should be denied the thought of being able to complete every function of this years game.

[GUI]

You are assuming that everything has to be done by one mechanism. We can get the ball off and ready to launch very easily, and much quicker than 2 seconds. Arms can do every function of the game, but so can a well designed launcher.

[Optimizer]

I have read pretty much all of the post on this thread and I am impressed with many of the arguments

Just so you know where I am comming from our robot is a shooter. It however does not use pnematics to "shoot" "launch" the ball. Go to www.frc272.com and maybe you can figure out how we do it. Look under "We are LC" "2008 season". Anyway our robot also employes an alternate aparatus that can effectivelly remove the ball from the "monkey bars" "rack" whatever it is you call it.

However I am not at all saying this is the way to do it. We just like that fact that we can move on the fly and shoot. Also since we can remove the ball from the rack using an alternate aparatus we like it. Anyway

...

I had seen your video, and really look forward to seeing you folks @ FLR! :]

[TheOtherGuy]

Also the arms can do every function of this years game
-rc

... and (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCzQ9kYlWWA) launchers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzgEYtqjurk) can't (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTWMrTLEYMI&feature=related)?

[CraigHickman]

I had posted something back a ways about 118 having a wobbly turret.... Scratch that. I've been corrected. After seeing what I just saw, 118 is the definition of what I think will win this year.

[Optimizer]

I will have to disagree with your generalizations of a shooter. There will be shooters that can launch from at least half of their home zones using a variable launch angle. There will also be shooters that can launch over the center divider. Please explain why a shooter will have a more difficult time grabbing the trackball after a hurdle. In practice, after a shooter hurdles, the trackball typically ends up against or near the opposite wall where it is very easy to pick up. There will be shooters that can grab a trackball as fast as any armbot and at the same time have the trackball loaded for another hurdle. Granted, most shooters will not be able to place, however, there will be shooters that can remove the trackball very affectively. I do agree that Hybrid will eventually produce at least a third of an alliances points.

Didn't I throw enough "usually"s in there? OK, nobody really knows, do they?

Anyway, to answer your demand, I draw from your own assertions for an example. If you hurdle over the lane divider, then you would have to go half-way around the field to go collect it, wouldn't you? Don't expect it to still be waiting there for you, BTW.

[Lil' Lavery]

... and (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCzQ9kYlWWA) launchers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzgEYtqjurk) can't (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTWMrTLEYMI&feature=related)?

Oh, but there are plenty more than three functions in this game... ;)
I really feel that the bottom line is that neither shooters nor arms/lifts are better, they are both just different solutions with different advantages and disadvantages. Each will have distinct roles in alliances, and distinct alliances that compliment their abilities well. Each will have different defensive strategies to limit them.
Ultimately, each regional and each weekend will have different teams and different designs prosper. As the game-play evolves over the course of the season, different aspects will become more or less important. Ultimately we won't know the answer to this question until after the Championship event, if it ever gets truly settled.
If any one team has the ability to take over matches individually, it will be the team that best uses their strengths to play to attributes the game needs, while minimizing the weaknesses. That is, the team that harnessing the best strengths of needed designs, and cuts out as many of the flaws as possible. So far there have been three different teams who have posted online that I consider potential candidates to "take over this game", but it's highly unlikely that any of them will.

[dtengineering]

Well, this thread is certainly getting lots of action, isn't it.

First of all, it would be nice if 1726 and 118 did well at the Championships this year, as they have been real leaders in being open with their designs. They could have very easily chosen to not post their designs and results until ship date, but I think what they posted inspired a lot of teams to improve their own designs and did so with sufficient time left in build to make a difference. The fact that those two very effective designs are referenced so often is proof, I believe, of the inspiration they have provided other teams.

Secondly, there are a LOT of teams who we haven't seen ANYTHING from. 1114 is as quiet as a mouse (Or a chicken, as the case may be), and there are many other perennial favourites who may have come up with something... unexpected.... not to mention the annual crop of rookies and lesser known teams who will have some unique designs. With 1,500 teams, surely there is one that has thought outside the box and is reading this thread thinking "lifters, launchers... lifters, launchers... HA!" and keeping their mouths shut until regional time.

For instance, what if a robot unfolded an 80" long "shield", lifted it 8'-10' in the air, and planted itself firmly behind the opponents overpass, rolling side to side so that any hurdling attempt that hit it just bounced backwards and never made it over the line? All of a sudden the launchers aren't looking so good, are they? Neither are the lifters, for that matter...

Finally, I do get the feeling that this year's game levels the playing field somewhat between the "superstar" teams and the "grinders". In past years there have been some amazing robots that could win matches all by themselves, with minimal help from their partners, as evidenced by perfect 8-0 (or near perfect 7-1) records in qualifying. I think that is going to be much harder to do this year as the nature of the game may reduce (but not eliminate) the capability gap between the top tier robots and those of us who chase them.

So I'm going to suggest that the whole premise of the thread is just a bit off-kilter. The championship is not going to be determined by any particular design (yes, it will be a good design, and a sturdy design, but that is hardly news) but rather by the team that chooses their partners most wisely and co-operates most effectively. And that is why I love FIRST... it really isn't about the robots, is it?

Jason

[waialua359]

Well, this thread is certainly getting lots of action, isn't it.

First of all, it would be nice if 1726 and 118 did well at the Championships this year, as they have been real leaders in being open with their designs. They could have very easily chosen to not post their designs and results until ship date, but I think what they posted inspired a lot of teams to improve their own designs and did so with sufficient time left in build to make a difference. The fact that those two very effective designs are referenced so often is proof, I believe, of the inspiration they have provided other teams.

Secondly, there are a LOT of teams who we haven't seen ANYTHING from. 1114 is as quiet as a mouse (Or a chicken, as the case may be), and there are many other perennial favourites who may have come up with something... unexpected.... not to mention the annual crop of rookies and lesser known teams who will have some unique designs. With 1,500 teams, surely there is one that has thought outside the box and is reading this thread thinking "lifters, launchers... lifters, launchers... HA!" and keeping their mouths shut until regional time.

For instance, what if a robot unfolded an 80" long "shield", lifted it 8'-10' in the air, and planted itself firmly behind the opponents overpass, rolling side to side so that any hurdling attempt that hit it just bounced backwards and never made it over the line? All of a sudden the launchers aren't looking so good, are they? Neither are the lifters, for that matter...

Finally, I do get the feeling that this year's game levels the playing field somewhat between the "superstar" teams and the "grinders". In past years there have been some amazing robots that could win matches all by themselves, with minimal help from their partners, as evidenced by perfect 8-0 (or near perfect 7-1) records in qualifying. I think that is going to be much harder to do this year as the nature of the game may reduce (but not eliminate) the capability gap between the top tier robots and those of us who chase them.

So I'm going to suggest that the whole premise of the thread is just a bit off-kilter. The championship is not going to be determined by any particular design (yes, it will be a good design, and a sturdy design, but that is hardly news) but rather by the team that chooses their partners most wisely and co-operates most effectively. And that is why I love FIRST... it really isn't about the robots, is it?

Jason

Wow! Spoken like a true FIRST enthusiast.
The truth is we have nothing better to do right now because we are anxiously waiting for regionals to begin. Then, we can talk about week 1 and the strategies that took place. :D :D :D

[ALIBI]

Didn't I throw enough "usually"s in there? OK, nobody really knows, do they?

Anyway, to answer your demand, I draw from your own assertions for an example. If you hurdle over the lane divider, then you would have to go half-way around the field to go collect it, wouldn't you? Don't expect it to still be waiting there for you, BTW.

Suppose we are all alone in the quadrant before our home zone and we are ready to hurdle. Sitting right in front of us with no one around is another trackball. Why not launch over the lane divider and quickly grab the other trackball? Suppose it is the last few seconds of the match and either we do not have the time to get back to our home zone, or there is a massive pileup preventing us from getting all the way around. Sounds like a good time to launch. My point is that if we chose to launch over the lane divider, we would probably not be concerned with getting the trackball back. I doubt if this will ever happen during a match except for the massive pileup possibility.

[GaryVoshol]

Finally, I do get the feeling that this year's game levels the playing field somewhat between the "superstar" teams and the "grinders". In past years there have been some amazing robots that could win matches all by themselves, with minimal help from their partners, as evidenced by perfect 8-0 (or near perfect 7-1) records in qualifying. I think that is going to be much harder to do this year as the nature of the game may reduce (but not eliminate) the capability gap between the top tier robots and those of us who chase them.
Very good points, Jason. In addition, with 3-team alliances retained, we have the "rising tide lifts all boats" effect in play again. A "grinder", a well-built and well executing but not particularly exciting bot, may benefit from good alliance partners in regional qualifying matches resulting in high placement in the standings. Sometimes that even happens to a "slogger", a robot with no particular abilities except to show up and play the game. The points those robots happen to score with their more "superstar" partners serves to put them into a position of being an alliance captain. (And if a "slogger" happens to be first seeded, it really makes the alliance selection interesting, as other picking teams have to decide whether to accept an invitation or form their own alliance.)

So I'm going to suggest that the whole premise of the thread is just a bit off-kilter. The championship is not going to be determined by any particular design (yes, it will be a good design, and a sturdy design, but that is hardly news) but rather by the team that chooses their partners most wisely and co-operates most effectively. And that is why I love FIRST... it really isn't about the robots, is it?

JasonEmphasis mine - that's really the most important part of a successful alliance, isn't it?

[Rick]

You can have the fastest, lowest, best launcher in the game and still get out played with strategy. Smart alliance captains are most important in my opinion. They work with the resources they have to generate results.

[T3_1565]

Oh, but there are plenty more than three functions in this game... ;)
I really feel that the bottom line is that neither shooters nor arms/lifts are better, they are both just different solutions with different advantages and disadvantages. Each will have distinct roles in alliances, and distinct alliances that compliment their abilities well. Each will have different defensive strategies to limit them.



Thank you!!! This is what I have been trying to say! No single design will win everything this year (unlike the hybrids last year) and it will end up coming down to how well you can drive, and how well you work in an alliance. Stratagy will win for sure this year!

EDIT: You can have the fastest, lowest, best launcher in the game and still get out played with strategy. Smart alliance captains are most important in my opinion. They work with the resources they have to generate results.

EXACTLY!

EDIT EDIT: The championship is not going to be determined by any particular design (yes, it will be a good design, and a sturdy design, but that is hardly news) but rather by the team that chooses their partners most wisely and co-operates most effectively. And that is why I love FIRST... it really isn't about the robots, is it?

Now everyone is one the same page! Glad some people can put things into words wayy better than I can :P

[MrForbes]

Oh, but there are plenty more than three functions in this game... ;)
I really feel that the bottom line is that neither shooters nor arms/lifts are better, they are both just different solutions with different advantages and disadvantages.

I agree. Kevin was just pointing out to those folks who seem to think a shooter can't do anything but hurdle, that there are indeed shooters that can do everything needed to play the game. Being able to shoot doesn't prevent a robot from being able to knock the ball off, pick it up effectively, or place it.

6 robots, 4 balls, alliances made up of robots with quite different abilities and teams with widely varying levels of experience....it all adds up to an interesting and exciting game this year!

[Wayne TenBrink]

I found the prediction I was looking for. It was one of Nostradarmous’s quatrains:

Nations tremble as the six tribes clash!
The hourglass runs out on the inert sphere, as three tribes clutch in vain.
The children from the clan of the wooden shoe steal it away in haste.
Victory is seized as the ramparts are breached in rapid succession!

[JesseK]

Well, normally I keep my opinions to myself, but I figure it would be fun to other's opinions on this.

Here's my prediction of the winning robot (winning being winning the most matches, and winning champs): We're going to see a low, small robot that can pick up the ball and throw it. It's going to be the simplest bot imaginable; a simple single or dual pneumatic (or other fast reloading mechanical) catapult, and a kitbot drive base. It's going to be FAST, both in robot max speed and driver to robot relations. It's going to have a very small, simple setup to knock down the ball, and the rest of the match will be spent hurdling the ball over the overpass, and running laps.

What we're NOT going to see: An enormous, beautifully engineered arm that can grab from any angle, pick the ball up, and get it over the pass. However wonderful these bots may be, they're just too shaky and too precise. We're not going to see an elevator, either. Any design that involves stopping, and lifting over will be weeded out before the finals on Einstein. We're going to see some of these huge arm-bots do very well, but in the end, it's going to be those low, fast throwers who will take champs.

Any thoughts on the winning bot design?


You speak of ONE bot of the 3 in the winning alliance. You speak of ONE scenario, an ideal scenario, where everything moves perfectly, no one has figured out nuance-style or guerilla-warfare defenses, and no one has figured out high-scoring combos that utilize several aspects of the game that shooters have difficulty with. Well lemme tell ya, I have and our drivers will be prepared. We have an elevator. We have forklifts and a curved "pouncing' bar that captures and kicks the ball. You didn't design it, but we did, with several considerations. Many other teams have similar but different designs. Just because you don't see the light doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

The good news is, I won't tell you you're wrong; the competitions in the coming weeks probably will.

[Kellen Hill]

This thread is based on a prediction, and I think it is wrong of you to call somebody close-minded for making a prediction and stating their own opinion. This thread is also not about the alliance that will do the best and win nationals, it is about the single robot that will do the best in the competition.

[Aren_Hill]

What this thread was about was not "which" alliance will win the most, it was a prediction as to what robot style would lead the field, as 25 did in 2006, and many bots did last year. He's predicting the bot style that will lead almost any alliance it ends up in qualification or elimination, to victory.

thats what this thread is about

[Pelicano234]

Well, normally I keep my opinions to myself, but I figure it would be fun to other's opinions on this.

Here's my prediction of the winning robot (winning being winning the most matches, and winning champs): We're going to see a low, small robot that can pick up the ball and throw it. It's going to be the simplest bot imaginable; a simple single or dual pneumatic (or other fast reloading mechanical) catapult, and a kitbot drive base. It's going to be FAST, both in robot max speed and driver to robot relations. It's going to have a very small, simple setup to knock down the ball, and the rest of the match will be spent hurdling the ball over the overpass, and running laps.

What we're NOT going to see: An enormous, beautifully engineered arm that can grab from any angle, pick the ball up, and get it over the pass. However wonderful these bots may be, they're just too shaky and too precise. We're not going to see an elevator, either. Any design that involves stopping, and lifting over will be weeded out before the finals on Einstein. We're going to see some of these huge arm-bots do very well, but in the end, it's going to be those low, fast throwers who will take champs.

Any thoughts on the winning bot design?


We designed out robot so we are able to block shooters. I think that will give us a slight advantage over other arm bots.

[Koko Ed]

An opinion is worth it's weight. Nothing more.
In a couple of days we'll find out how things really go down and by the end of the season that will be proven to be a myth as well as teams change their strategies by the championship. And the game will be played completely different from week 1.
It happens all the time in FIRST.

[JesseK]

This thread is based on a prediction, and I think it is wrong of you to call somebody close-minded for making a prediction and stating their own opinion. This thread is also not about the alliance that will do the best and win nationals, it is about the single robot that will do the best in the competition.

What this thread was about was not "which" alliance will win the most, it was a prediction as to what robot style would lead the field, as 25 did in 2006, and many bots did last year. He's predicting the bot style that will lead almost any alliance it ends up in qualification or elimination, to victory.

thats what this thread is about


Aye, this thread is about opinions. My post is not meant to be derrogatory. I tried to write it in the same tone as the original; my apologies for not keeping particular parts of my opinion to myself, which will be edited.

My post stated a direct opinionated argument against his opinion. The original opinion was precisely about what winning alliance we'll see on Einstein in Atlanta, and it was all stated very clearly and directly: all bots other than shooters bot will be "weeded out" before Einstein. It seems very based upon what's been seen in videos, whereas many teams who have succeeded with spectacular elevators/arms may not have had time or resources to take a video. If you can't imagine a 'spectacular' lift, well, I can't exactly help you there. However, maybe the videos in later weeks can.

[EricH]

It seems very based upon what's been seen in videos, whereas many teams who have succeeded with spectacular elevators/arms may not have had time or resources to take a video. If you can't imagine a 'spectacular' lift, well, I can't exactly help you there. However, maybe the videos in later weeks can.Or, they choose not to make a video or post pictures at all. Some teams are like that--secrecy until the end, unless all chance of secrecy is gone. So you don't know what is coming at you until it arrives.

I think this whole discussion is moot, as we'll find out the Week 1 standards starting Thursday, Week 2 standards the next Thursday, Week 3 standards... you get the picture. Strategies change week to week or even day to day/match to match.

The only prediction I'm going to make is that both shooters and arms will be valuable, and both will be in the finals at virtually every event.

[hipsterjr]

This and other threads have been reduced to:.. "shooters are better" ..."no, arms are better"..."no shooters".

Lets just wait two days and see what happens.

[Ian Curtis]

You speak of ONE bot of the 3 in the winning alliance. You speak of ONE scenario, an ideal scenario, where everything moves perfectly, no one has figured out nuance-style or guerilla-warfare defenses, and no one has figured out high-scoring combos that utilize several aspects of the game. Well lemme tell ya, I have and our drivers will be prepared. We have an elevator. We have forklifts and a curved "pouncing' bar that captures and kicks the ball. You didn't design it, but we did. Many other teams have similar but different designs. Just because you don't see the light doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Way to be closed-minded. The good news is, I don't have to tell you you're wrong; the competitions in the coming weeks will.

A good launching robot (especially one that launches on-the-fly) is faster at scoring than a good elevator. At the very least the elevator has to stop at the overpass and retract their elevator to go under*. A launcher doesn't have to waste that time. So, I don't see how an elevator can possibly beat a launcher when it comes to the speed of actually scoring. You can have a better mechanism for pickup, but still, I'm guess that they're are launching robots that have similar or better pickup styles.

And sure, you can play guerilla warfare with the ball (as I too have thought about this, and this'll be where the game gets nasty) but so can the launcher, who when it comes down to it is faster at scoring.

However, as is always true there will be a great range of launchers (from very good to very bad) just as there will be in armed robots (from very good to very bad). However, if we're playing in a perfect world (and Einstein is second only to IRI in terms of perfection) then I can't see how an elevator can outscore a launcher. And as I said, you can play tricks with the ball. There are plenty of tricks to be played. But if you can use them, so can the other guy. And once you've used them once, the cat's out of the bag.

However, if you ask me, I can define the make or break aspect of week 1 in a single word Autonomous. If you get a breakaway score then, no one is going to catch up to you. And yes, I meant autonomous. I think relying on Hybrid is simply too risky.

*It's been brought to my attention that at least one team doesn't need to retract, and there are probably others of you out there. But they aren't anywheres near the general case. While the Killer Bee's have done it, and maybe a few other teams worldwide, launching on the fly seems to be far more common place.

[Brandon Holley]

I have just spent like 20 minutes reading EVERYONEs post in this thread, like others, i see a lot of well shooter can do this....and arms can do that...and my team has done this...and this team has done that...

The goal of this thread was to predict what was going to happen.

In my honest opinion, if we have simply 1 shooter vs. 1 arm, the shooter is going to win. However, this isn't goign to happen because we have 4 other robots on the field who are shooters/arms/herders/racers/younameits. While I feel shooters 1 on 1 will be more effective, the alliance is where games are won and loss.

If you ask me, the best alliance you can have is 1 of each of these main categories (arms/shooters/racers). I think while these threads are fun, a lot of the time they should jsut be left as fun. Wait until you see what is going on at teh week 1 regionals. Chances are it will be different than what every one of us is thinking. You will see shooters do well, some will do extremely well, however you will see shooters do very poorly as well. You will see arms do well, some will do extremely well, however you will see arms do very poorly also. FIRST always balances itself out. Well made robots, good strategy, and a bit of luck...as always, the keys to success.

[Sunshine]

I still believe that the best alliance will be the teams that work off of each others strengths. I also believe that a team who keeps one robot (either a great launcher or lifter) in their zone while the other two robots bring the balls back will win.

I believe that this alliance will be made up of 3 robots that can do it all. They will knock down both balls during autonomous, they will put the balls back on the rack at the end of the match and will knock down at least one competitor's ball backwards so no points are scored at the end of the match.

The best defense will be a great offense. :cool:

[CraigHickman]

You didn't design it, but we did, with several considerations. Many other teams have similar but different designs. Just because you don't see the light doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

The good news is, I won't tell you you're wrong; the competitions in the coming weeks probably will.

Ad Hominem, much? Honestly, it was a prediction, and we didn't really need to get hostile about it all. If my phrasing was a little harsh, it was forewarned by the word "cynical" being present in the title.

I have had experience with arm systems. I have worked and spoken to some of the best ones. I've spent time analyzing this game. After all that, it has become my OPINION (not fact!) that shooters will be able to outscore an arm any day.

What this thread was about was not "which" alliance will win the most, it was a prediction as to what robot style would lead the field, as 25 did in 2006, and many bots did last year. He's predicting the bot style that will lead almost any alliance it ends up in qualification or elimination, to victory.

thats what this thread is about

Yes! Thanks!

The whole point of this thread was to not address the alliance factor (we all KNOW that it's an alliance that will win, why stress over it?), but in stead to address what kind of robot will lead the field (just as 25 did in 06) by taking the most wins, and being known as the most fearsome bot.

[s_forbes]

I agree with the the thought that, all other things the same, a shooter will be faster than an arm bot. There is that small smidgen of time that they gain by not having to stop at the overpass.

This small advantage may not seem like much, but it opens up a unique strategy that I haven't seen anyone go for yet (though I'm still holding out for 1114!). Basically, if you launch the ball properly (as in lots of backspin) you can get it to slow enough when it bounces to be easy to retrieve again. If it's done properly, you could even get the ball to bounce back into your robot. This completely bypasses any time that would be taken to retrieve the ball again, which seems like it will be a major issue!

I was hoping more teams would realize this strategy and go for a bounce catch, but then again we haven't seen everyone's robot yet.

[Koko Ed]

One thing to remember: Just because it works well in the shop doesn't mean it's going to translate to on field dominance. There are far to many variables out there that cannot be duplicated in the shop that teams are going to have to face on the fly. From tenacious opponents who make strategies specifically designed to stop you to alliance partners who barely work or have not a single clue of what they are doing bd are more of a hindrance than a help. Being able to deal with these variables are what separate the strong from the also ran.

[Lil' Lavery]

The whole point of this thread was to not address the alliance factor (we all KNOW that it's an alliance that will win, why stress over it?), but in stead to address what kind of robot will lead the field (just as 25 did in 06) by taking the most wins, and being known as the most fearsome bot.

I feel like a broken record. In 2006, the game was structured in a way that an individual robot could take over, and claim it's spot as the most feared robot of them all. 2008 is a game where no robot will be able to win them all (or even come very close) without partners that can cooperate and aid it.
Yes, we all know an alliance will win. But, no individual robot will come out with the most wins, on any level (match, regional, championship, etc) without the aid of their partners in some form.

[Jonathan Norris]

I'm waiting till 71, 111, and 1114 battle it out at West Michigan in 3 days to form an opinion on what will be the dominant strategey. we've seen 111, but haven't seen how effective they are yet, and have yet to see 71 or 1114 in action. I think we will all be surprised by how the game plays out in two days... be patient the real game will be revealed on thursday when teams actualy get on the field and play.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

I feel like a broken record. In 2006, the game was structured in a way that an individual robot could take over, and claim it's spot as the most feared robot of them all. 2008 is a game where no robot will be able to win them all (or even come very close) without partners that can cooperate and aid it.
Yes, we all know an alliance will win. But, no individual robot will come out with the most wins, on any level (match, regional, championship, etc) without the aid of their partners in some form.

I wholeheartedly agree.

The robot design that will garner the most wins wont be the best shooter, the best arm, or the best runner ... it'll be the robot that can best adapt to how the game is being played at that regional and adapt to their alliance partners strengths and weaknesses.

[TheOtherGuy]

I think the point of this thread was to DISCUSS the different similarities/differences between arm-bots and shooters and to assert our collective OPINIONS on the subject. How the alliance works is completely arbitrary to the conversation. This thread is merely for SPECULATING over which design would be more dominant over the other.

C'mon, this thread is for fun, as noted by the number of pages in 1 day. Arguments/Debates are fun, interesting, and engaging. We all know we will see how it plays out on the first day of competition, so stop mentioning that. Just post your ideas on why you think shooters (as mentioned in the initial post) are better or worse than arm-bots. There have already been some interesting posts on the subject, so try as hard as possible not to deviate from that discussion.

Now, my opinion is that shooters will have a clear advantage.

-low CG (I haven't seen a tall/tippy shooter yet...)
-shoot on the fly (some elevators can do this, but none that I've seen also load from the front)
-almost no chance of exceeding the 80" rule (not a big issue, just a minor point that hasn't been made yet, that I know of)

the main point here is the shoot on the fly. You save ~5 seconds or more (depending on the design, I know 179 can hurdle fast with their arm) on that fact alone. Shooters also (some of them) can knock off and catch the ball very, very quickly. I haven't seen an arm robot do this yet. NEW IDEA: Shooters can place the ball faster than arm robots. I say this because arm robots (most of them) take some time to raise the arm and actually place the ball. Shooters simply move the the right spot on the field and shoot. From our experiments, you don't have to be very accurate to get the ball on the overpass...

Just throwing some ideas out there for discussion...

EDIT: and what Craig Hickman said earlier about robots taking the most wins, I believe he meant which robot would make the most points.

[waialua359]

[QUOTE=TheOtherGuy;707951]NEW IDEA: Shooters can place the ball faster than arm robots. I say this because arm robots (most of them) take some time to raise the arm and actually place the ball. Shooters simply move the the right spot on the field and shoot. From our experiments, you don't have to be very accurate to get the ball on the overpass...

QUOTE]

I think this statement may be too generalized. Not all shooters can shoot it on the overpass. Some are designed to shoot "over" the overpass only, where it may be difficult for teams to move backwards a bit and try to make it land perfectly on there. I'm not talking about every shooter.
Moving to the right spot may be hard to do with other robots on the field.

Arm robots wouldnt drive up to an overpass, then start lifting their arm to place on the overpass, thus taking too much time. They can do it while moving towards the overpass on the fly which is a smarter play in saving time. The one guarantee I think is that a greater no. of arm bots can place it on the overpass better and with great efficiency (not necessarily faster), while not as many shooters can pick a spot and place it just right on the overpass. I'm sure many experienced controllers and certain robots may do this, but not some of the ones I have seen from others. If an arm bot can place the ball on the overpass, I am assuming that they can remove it also (generalizing here). I have not seen every shooter built to do this. A great shooter will have that capability to knock balls down.

[Uberbots]

...Like? From what I've seen in videos and so on, a shooter bot can do the same thing as an arm. That is, get the ball over the overpass in a much more efficient manner, which will allow the alliance to keep moving, and to score higher.

Yeah, until it overshoots, hits the bottom of the overpass, backfires and breaks the launcher mechanism (as happened to one of the teams at suffield)

[StephLee]

1629 cannot remove the ball from the overpass...

I'm going to stay out of the rest of the discussion for now, but...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5d34yZrSH0

Now, the ball does not consistently stay on the overpass, but it consistently knocks another ball down. Provided that another ball has been removed, we ARE capable of removing one ourselves. If no ball is removed...well, then the training wheels come off. :)

[=Martin=Taylor=]

Oh, I don't know, it's pretty easy when there's a button on the lifter and the pickup is automated ;)
(and the lifter mechanism is 1 piece actuated by 1 piston....)

BTW, as stated in another thread, I'm waiting for a "bounce-catch"...

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/4228/bouncecatchin2.gif

EH GAD!! Team 39 can catch a bouncing trackball! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdulU2tJU9E) (It happens during the end of the video, and yes I know it doesn't bounce off the ground.... But it was cool none the less!!!)

[Lil' Lavery]

I'm going to stay out of the rest of the discussion for now, but...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5d34yZrSH0

Now, the ball does not consistently stay on the overpass, but it consistently knocks another ball down. Provided that another ball has been removed, we ARE capable of removing one ourselves. If no ball is removed...well, then the training wheels come off. :)

I'm sorry for the misinterpretation, but I meant at the beginning of the match. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKdTJSR-KuU
1629 Robot features: Trackball pickup, fast speed, super-low center of gravity, amazing hurdle, multiple auto-laps, rugged, place ball at end (if we're lucky) but no ball knock-er- off-er. (less)

[Aren_Hill]

I feel like a broken record. In 2006, the game was structured in a way that an individual robot could take over, and claim it's spot as the most feared robot of them all. 2008 is a game where no robot will be able to win them all (or even come very close) without partners that can cooperate and aid it.
Yes, we all know an alliance will win. But, no individual robot will come out with the most wins, on any level (match, regional, championship, etc) without the aid of their partners in some form.

This is a whole new debate that cannot be proven yet, we have no idea if a 1 bot win is possible yet.
While yes from analyzing the game it seems like it "has" to be a whole alliance effort every single match to win. I think that there will be some bots that will be unstoppable during qualifications randomly paired matches, and then they will truly be tested by the alliances they end up with and against.

you can't state one bot can't dominate yet...

[waialua359]

This is a whole new debate that cannot be proven yet, we have no idea if a 1 bot win is possible yet.
While yes from analyzing the game it seems like it "has" to be a whole alliance effort every single match to win. I think that there will be some bots that will be unstoppable during qualifications randomly paired matches, and then they will truly be tested by the alliances they end up with and against.

you can't state one bot can't dominate yet...

this depends on 2 conditions as seen in the past.
The dominating robot has no defense played on them and the opposing alliance just cant play offense. The fact that only 2 trackballs are available per alliance AND they have to go around the field to hurdle again, impedes a dominating robot to score as much as they can.
What makes it harder to dominate which is evident from 2007 to now is the fact that you can only carry one gamepiece at a time (so to speak). In 06, you could load up and shoot as much as you wanted. Dominating robots could kill you by scoring in the center goal for Aim High in a matter of seconds. Team 25 won many matches in stretches of just 10 seconds or less. We had lots of experience. We played against them 5 times and saw many more of their matches both at regionals and at championship. No team can win this year in a stretch of 10 seconds or less during a match, UNLESS maybe during the hybrid period.

[Ian Curtis]

I feel like a broken record. In 2006, the game was structured in a way that an individual robot could take over, and claim it's spot as the most feared robot of them all. 2008 is a game where no robot will be able to win them all (or even come very close) without partners that can cooperate and aid it.
Yes, we all know an alliance will win. But, no individual robot will come out with the most wins, on any level (match, regional, championship, etc) without the aid of their partners in some form.

What about autonomous? Let's say Team 9999 can get a lap reliably. Starting down 16 points is a HHHUUUUGGGEEEEE gap to fill. Like, huge huge. Even if they just have 3 robots driving in circles, and you have 3 somewhat decent hurdlers, it could very well be an insurmountable gap! If they are also a good hurdler, I think that's pretty hard to touch.

[CraigHickman]

EDIT: and what Craig Hickman said earlier about robots taking the most wins, I believe he meant which robot would make the most points.

Hm. Actually, by saying which robot would take the most wins, I actually meant, y'know, the most wins. If I had meant the high scoring robot, I probably would have said it... then again, knowing me, nothings certain. :D

Yeah, until it overshoots, hits the bottom of the overpass, backfires and breaks the launcher mechanism (as happened to one of the teams at suffield)

This is a valid point, and all, but it's quite contrary to my original post. My prediction states that it will be a very practiced team, who will learn to make very few mistakes. Sure, a fluke mistake will happen every now and then, but the bots we're going to see rise to the top of the heap won't make them.

[StephLee]

Yeah, until it overshoots, hits the bottom of the overpass, backfires and breaks the launcher mechanism (as happened to one of the teams at suffield)

We had that happen once in practice, but due to the way our shooter was built, it did far more damage to the trackball than to us...the bladder of the ball ended up in two pieces, while the robot was fine. Robust construction is obviously important in any game, especially one involving high speeds and potentially flying objects weighing 8 to 10 pounds.

[Joe Matt]

I feel like a broken record. In 2006, the game was structured in a way that an individual robot could take over, and claim it's spot as the most feared robot of them all. 2008 is a game where no robot will be able to win them all (or even come very close) without partners that can cooperate and aid it.
Yes, we all know an alliance will win. But, no individual robot will come out with the most wins, on any level (match, regional, championship, etc) without the aid of their partners in some form.

It's like coming into a burger store and shouting "I LIKE CHICKEN MORE!" and leaving.

That's now what this thread is about. Yes alliances are important but can an arm or shooter be the most adaptive to the game and alliances? What we are looking at is the fact that arms are slower, more ridged, and antiquated compared to shooters in this game. Putting a ball on the overpass is going to be a task that is downplayed this year, just like stacking in 2003. It's a complex task that requires too much effort, and can be taken away very quickly.

NOW, I'm not saying that an ALLIANCE full of shooters is the best way to go (that's another topic for another time/thread/talking over a beer), but for this game I see shooters being a more dominant force than arms.

[Brandon Holley]

just like stacking in 2004.

what is this stacking 2004 you speak of? i recall a game called stack attack played in 2003...

[Joe Matt]

what is this stacking 2004 you speak of? i recall a game called stack attack played in 2003...

blast! it's changed to the right year, i was also thinking of the 2x ball in 2004 and probably had one of those ADD cross-confusion-information-exchange moment things

[JesseK]

My apologies for the tone of my post. Here it is again, a little wordier and friendlier.

There are no consistent ideal scenarios. There are flukes, lucky matchups and whatnot, but it's just not feasible to count on an ideal scenario. The original argument implies an ideal scenario. Shooters will never consistently have open field in front of them, making the time difference between them and lifters negligible (assuming equal drive trains & driver capabilities). It's like racing between stop lights: it doesn't matter if you do 50mph or 30mph between them, you still get a green light on the 2nd light at the same exact time.

It will be a strategist's alliance that wins Einstein. Shooters may score the most hurdling points, but it's doubtful they will cause the greatest score differential between one alliance and their opponents: it's simply too dynamic of a game.

Tit for tat, shooters have no inherent advantage in the finals as a single robot. Everything one alliance can do the opponents can probably do too. At least in 2007, we could strategically place rings or litter home zones to consistently aid the score differential in the future; this year it's all unpredictable & moment-by-moment by which point no 1 bot can steal the show.

Even hybrid mode will be unpredictable since 3 bots all have to make the same left turn at the end of the runway, and then pray their opponents aren't in their way on the other side. There will be no "consistent" hybrid modes after the 2nd line. We can probably count on each highly-engineered alliance to get 32 pts at the end of hybrid...but then again so can the opponents. The only advantage shooters have here is that with a massive amount of luck they might make it around to hurdle in hybrid before time runs out. This will hardly be enough to weed out every other style of bot before Einstein.

[EricH]

It's like coming into a burger store and shouting "I LIKE CHICKEN MORE!" and leaving.You've got that right. The arms are the chicken stores, the shooters are the burger stores, and we're all leaving our "home" store, going into the "other" store, and doing exactly what you say here, with the exception that it goes both ways (i.e., also going into a chicken store and yelling about burgers).

Come on now. Where's the sense in that? Especially when practice rounds start tomorrow? We'll find out who plays the game better soon enough. Let's let this thread die. It's served its purpose and has now been sidetracked.

[Kellen Hill]

We know it will be the alliance with the best strategy that wins most of the time, but this is about the single robot out there that will win the most. Stop talking about the best alliance and talk about the best robot. You say shooters can have robots in front of them but so can arms in the exact same way. Nobody has an advantage in that situation. And I most certainly would not want to be the bot in front of any shooter. I am sure several robots will be tipped over or demolished in this manner.

[AdamHeard]

Arms just aren't going to work, don't bother attempting any sort of defense on them or anything; they've got no chance anyway ;)

Hmmm, maybe even put in your 2nd or 3rd string drivers for a match against an arm bot ;)

[T3_1565]

Arms just aren't going to work, don't bother attempting any sort of defense on them or anything; they've got no chance anyway ;)

Hmmm, maybe even put in your 2nd or 3rd string drivers for a match against an arm bot ;)



lmao.... I hope your kidding :eek:

[ShaneP]

lmao.... I hope your kidding :eek:

Hence the winks... :rolleyes:

[JesseK]

We know it will be the alliance with the best strategy that wins most of the time, but this is about the single robot out there that will win the most. Stop talking about the best alliance and talk about the best robot.

This pretty much says there is no "best" robot. There will never be a 1 vs 1 in an actual elim. match and you've just stated that it takes an alliance to win instead of a single bot. This whole point is pretty pointless at this point.

[Tom Bottiglieri]

Arms are terrible.
Shooters are terrible.
Racers are terrible.

This is the only bot that can win this year. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fd/Dragon_zord.JPG)

[JaneYoung]

Arms are terrible.
Shooters are terrible.
Racers are terrible.

This is the only bot that can win this year. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fd/Dragon_zord.JPG)

Tom,
you are just terrible. :]

[GaryVoshol]

Arms are terrible.
Shooters are terrible.
Racers are terrible.

This is the only bot that can win this year. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fd/Dragon_zord.JPG)

That's got arms. And several protuberances that look like they could burst a trackball in no time. Can't win the game if you're always DQ'd.

[Joe Matt]

Arms are terrible.
Shooters are terrible.
Racers are terrible.

This is the only bot that can win this year. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fd/Dragon_zord.JPG)

RTFM! its liek over the wate limmit and to big!




;)

[AdamHeard]

That's got arms. And several protuberances that look like they could burst a trackball in no time. Can't win the game if you're always DQ'd.

It may have arms, but if is more dragonzordlike and as such doesn't fall into the arm category.

Also, have you ever tried to DQ a dragon?

[JaneYoung]

Also, have you ever tried to DQ a dragon?
If you did, you would probably get flamed.

(sorry, I could not resist, I'll behave.)

[JesseK]

If you did, you would probably get flamed.

That is downright hilarious.
:D

[CraigHickman]

Yay, humor!

It's sort of impressive how big this thread got in such a short amount of time... I guess all the FIRSTers are anxious and online while they wait for the week 1 regionals!

[Koko Ed]

Arms are terrible.
Shooters are terrible.
Racers are terrible.

This is the only bot that can win this year. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fd/Dragon_zord.JPG)

So who drew the short straw to have to get the unfortunate job of having to swiss cheese that baby to make weight and when are they getting out of traction?

[Dan Richardson]

I feel like a broken record. In 2006, the game was structured in a way that an individual robot could take over, and claim it's spot as the most feared robot of them all. 2008 is a game where no robot will be able to win them all (or even come very close) without partners that can cooperate and aid it.
Yes, we all know an alliance will win. But, no individual robot will come out with the most wins, on any level (match, regional, championship, etc) without the aid of their partners in some form.

I disagree, robots will dominate, but it will have nothing to do with Arm/Shooter. I realise this thread is mostly directed to shooter / arm strategies but I don't believe you are looking at the game as a whole

Mark my words, this game will be decided by autonomous, a Robot who can knock off both balls and continue around the field, and do this Effectively and Efficiently will win 90% of their matches. Teams dominated in 06' because of autonomous, not because of the game.

If you can score ~ 32 points in auton, some of the time but around a 24-28 point average you will win, and you will dominate most of the time. The only time you'll be challenged is by teams with equivalent autons. Even after that point I believe your bot, shooter or arm could be "just average" and you'd win most of your matches.

This isn't the case usually tho, good autons usually come with good bots ( historically 233, 1114, 111 etc.. ) These type of robots, if they show up with dominating autons, will dominate this game, regardless if their an arm or shooter.

[JesseK]

Mark my words, this game will be decided by autonomous, a Robot who can knock off both balls and continue around the field, and do this Effectively and Efficiently will win 90% of their matches. Teams dominated in 06' because of autonomous, not because of the game.
I generally agree with this until I realize the scope of hybrid. The chances your alliance will accidentally knock off the opponent's trackball are pretty high in qualifications. I predict a couple of alliances will be made for elims solely on hybrid capabilities, but who knows how dominant they'll be.

[Lil' Lavery]

I disagree, robots will dominate, but it will have nothing to do with Arm/Shooter. I realise this thread is mostly directed to shooter / arm strategies but I don't believe you are looking at the game as a whole

Mark my words, this game will be decided by autonomous, a Robot who can knock off both balls and continue around the field, and do this Effectively and Efficiently will win 90% of their matches. Teams dominated in 06' because of autonomous, not because of the game.

If you can score ~ 32 points in auton, some of the time but around a 24-28 point average you will win, and you will dominate most of the time. The only time you'll be challenged is by teams with equivalent autons. Even after that point I believe your bot, shooter or arm could be "just average" and you'd win most of your matches.

This isn't the case usually tho, good autons usually come with good bots ( historically 233, 1114, 111 etc.. ) These type of robots, if they show up with dominating autons, will dominate this game, regardless if their an arm or shooter.

There is some validity to this argument, to an extent. Especially during week 1, hybrid modes that are very successful will mean very good records. But we may also see some efforts put forth from a few teams in tele-op that are quite outstanding during week 1. As the game evolves I think that the dominance of hybrid will be mitigated, if not nearly negated completely. Eventually many teams will be able to keep hybrid close, especially during the critical elimination matches, and various defensive strategies will greatly hamper less advanced hybrid routines. A four-point lead after hybrid is only a four-point lead (there's no 10-point bonus like in 2006), and while points are easier to come by in hybrid, winning hybrid mode in itself does not grant any additional bonus other than the points you scored.
While not having hybrid in any way/shape/form will most likely spell great trouble (almost guaranteed doom over the course of the whole weekend) for a team, having an outstanding hybrid will likely only take you so far.

[65_Xero_Huskie]

Well, normally I keep my opinions to myself, but I figure it would be fun to other's opinions on this.



What we're NOT going to see: An enormous, beautifully engineered arm that can grab from any angle, pick the ball up, and get it over the pass. However wonderful these bots may be, they're just too shaky and too precise. We're not going to see an elevator, either. Any design that involves stopping, and lifting over will be weeded out before the finals on Einstein. We're going to see some of these huge arm-bots do very well, but in the end, it's going to be those low, fast throwers who will take champs.

Any thoughts on the winning bot design?

This thought of yours intrigues me, I guarantee you that one of these robots will be on the winning alliance. The winning alliance will have a speed demon that can get around the track with a ball. It will have a launcher bot. And it will have an arm bot. All play an important role this year. And about the beautiful robot that can do everything. There is ALWAYS a robot that can do everything and they either win the championship (My fav that could do everything was 217 in '06) Or do Very well and lose due to some circumstances.

[dlavery]

This and other threads have been reduced to:.. "shooters are better" ..."no, arms are better"..."no shooters".

"Duck season!"

"Rabbit season!"

"DUCK season!"

"RABBIT season!"

"DUCK SEASON!"

"RABBIT SEASON!"

"DUCK SEASON!!!"

"RABBIT SEASON!!!"






(I couldn't help myself :))

-dave



.

[Wayne C.]

"Duck season!"

"Rabbit season!"

"DUCK season!"

"RABBIT season!"

"DUCK SEASON!"

"RABBIT SEASON!"

"DUCK SEASON!!!"

"RABBIT SEASON!!!"






(I couldn't help myself :))

-dave



.

ELMER season!!!!

[EricH]

ELMER season!!!!Wouldn't that be,
"DAVE season!!!!!!!!!!"? At least in this case?

[gdawg116]

"Duck season!"

"Rabbit season!"

"DUCK season!"

"RABBIT season!"

"DUCK SEASON!"

"RABBIT SEASON!"

"DUCK SEASON!!!"

"RABBIT SEASON!!!"






(I couldn't help myself :))

-dave



.

Dave wouldnt it be more like
"duck season"
"Wabbit Season"
"duck Season"
"Wabbit Season"

[ALIBI]

Dave wouldnt it be more like
"duck season"
"Wabbit Season"
"duck Season"
"Wabbit Season"

What about:

Duck Season
Wabbit Season
Duck Season
Wabbit Season
Duck Season
WOBOT Season!

Michigan Teams should know what I mean. The WOBOT will probably be hunted this season.

[65_Xero_Huskie]

What about:

Duck Season
Wabbit Season
Duck Season
Wabbit Season
Duck Season
WOBOT Season!

Michigan Teams should know what I mean. The WOBOT will probably be hunted this season.

Hehe, Its WOBOT hunting season!

[Pavan Dave]

I disagree, robots will dominate, but it will have nothing to do with Arm/Shooter. I realise this thread is mostly directed to shooter / arm strategies but I don't believe you are looking at the game as a whole

Mark my words, this game will be decided by autonomous, a Robot who can knock off both balls and continue around the field, and do this Effectively and Efficiently will win 90% of their matches. Teams dominated in 06' because of autonomous, not because of the game.

If you can score ~ 32 points in auton, some of the time but around a 24-28 point average you will win, and you will dominate most of the time. The only time you'll be challenged is by teams with equivalent autons. Even after that point I believe your bot, shooter or arm could be "just average" and you'd win most of your matches.

This isn't the case usually tho, good autons usually come with good bots ( historically 233, 1114, 111 etc.. ) These type of robots, if they show up with dominating autons, will dominate this game, regardless if their an arm or shooter.


This year if you win the autonomous period it means your team has robots that move. In auton if all robots move than the matches will be close, BUT if one is sitting idle, that alliance is at a huge disadvantage. Of course teams with good autons will stand at an advantage but that advantage will be limited since there is not much "skill" involved with auton like in previous years (ex: placing a tube on a rack). That is how matches will be called, just like 2006.

# of Robots with Auton RED = # of Robots with Auton BLUE = Close match
# of Robots with Auton RED > # of Robots with Auton BLUE = Red predicted win
# of Robots with Auton RED < # of Robots with Auton BLUE = Blue predicted win

All you need in this game is a kitbot with a pole sticking up [and a remote], if you have those than you stand at an advantage. Of course there will be dominant bots on alliances that can stick out but their room for completely overtaking a match will be somewhat limited if they are down an alliance partner or something happens. This is a game that those teams without functional robots on Thursday because they can/[possibly]will end up seeded in the top eight on Saturday.

Pavan.




.

[Cooley744]

that's very true, unless a very stable and functional claw arm with excellent drivers are present...and that's team 744 (sorry i've gotta represent) lol

[hipsterjr]

From watching the early NJ video, shooters and scissor lifts seem pretty strong oddly enough.

[Koko Ed]

From watching the early NJ video, shooters and scissor lifts seem pretty strong oddly enough.

Which is funny because I cannot recall seeing many successful scissor lifts before.

[Tetraman]

Yea, anything that could hurdle fast did the best. Tempo!

[Dillon Compton]

Which is funny because I cannot recall seeing many successful scissor lifts before.

Scissor lifts, at least to me, seem to be an ideal lift type for this year's game.

In the past, the capability to make relatively precise adjustments has been very important, with overall lift speed often taking second place. This type of approach is an ideal candidate for an elevator of some type, or an arm with good feedback.

This year, as long as you are ABOVE the overpass, it doesn't much matter if you are a foot or two feet above, let alone the inches-precision desired by teams in the past. This seems the ideal task for a scissor lift to me (very easy to achieve fast, seamless elevation). If done right, I see scissors being a major force in the arm scene this year.

//Dillon Compton

[=Martin=Taylor=]

After competing in Portland I can honestly say that forklifts are not the most successful loading mechanism. They get run over a lot, they can't catch a rolling ball easily, and they are unwieldy.

If you can catch the ball quickly you are more likely to succeed than if you can get it over quickly. 368 could pick up the ball in a second, it didn't matter that they took a bit longer to hurdle than the catapults.

Then again, if you can do both.... Power to ya :D