Elite (invite only) FIRST teams [Archive]

CraigHickman

06-03-2008, 19:01

SL8

06-03-2008, 19:04

I know that we pretty much take who ever walks in the door and stays with us while being productive. It usually works out.

I am also curious about this kind of set up and I know I've heard of many teams having a selection process. Let me look around here.....

Mike Harrison

06-03-2008, 19:09

Our team has an application per say... but it's more like something that weeds out the students who don't even take the time to fill out a couple papers. Two teacher reccomendations are required but it's not like it's hard to get those. Our design process however is much more open. Only problem I can see with this is the quiet people who have good ideas, they might be a little too frightened to speak up in front of a board. This is my third year on the team and new members continue to shock me with good ideas.

And while we're on this subject of leaving for college and not knowing what to do with countless hours of time in Jan. and Feb., are there any teams in the Ann Arbor, MI area that could use a college student mentor?

bduddy

06-03-2008, 19:13

840 technically does have an application, and it is a couple pages, but we always like to joke around that the only real criteria for being a member is attendance, and really the main purpose of the application is to determine whether you already are too busy to commit enough time to robotics. So I don't think we follow your criteria...

P.S.: I would have given you flack for this idea, but I understand this wasn't the purpose of this topic.

Ty Tremblay

06-03-2008, 19:14

In my opinion, FIRST was started to get people interested in science and technology. Making them apply to get on the team seems to counteract that idea. But, that aside, 190 runs pretty much that exact game plan (minus applications). We have several designs thought up by respective sub-groups, and then the whole team whittles it down to one (changing the favored idea to incorporate other ideas as well).

fredliu168

06-03-2008, 19:18

My old FRC team had an application and interview process for all new members. Those interested would submit an application with at least one teacher reference and skillset. A resume was highly recommended. I didn't like this system much because it added qualified people who just went to robotics to put it on their college application. However, I can't really think of a much better system.

In terms of the design process, it was basically whoever had an idea come up in front of the team and present their design. This worked well to some degree.

Scott Carpman

06-03-2008, 19:18

We have an application system based on the college Common App. The students have to fill out a few short answers and then a longer essay about themselves. Programmers and PR must also full out supplements dealing with each department.

The thought process behind the application is that if you aren't dedicated enough to fill out the paperwork, you won't show up during build season.

basicxman

06-03-2008, 19:19

well i agree with above, as a one-man team i know that next year i need all the help i can get, even just for the competition

i think an application is kind of pointless because if they're interested in robotics they're generally gonna be a little above average intelligence :rolleyes: :D

i think one of the main points is attendace, St. Martins team last year had a really bad attendance record with the newbies so it was tricky during critical build time

Zyrano

06-03-2008, 19:24

fredliu168

06-03-2008, 19:29

Just from experience, I'd say you should focus on your own school work first. Starting a first team takes a lot of time and effort, and while it's a noble effort, your main goal should be to get through college.

100% agree with this. I'm a first year in University right now and the work load is incredible. If you're not ready, the exams can sneak up on you, and with exams worth 50%+ of your marks, thats a big deal.

Now back to studying for midterm :p

CraigHickman

06-03-2008, 19:32

Just from experience, I'd say you should focus on your own school work first. Starting a first team takes a lot of time and effort, and while it's a noble effort, your main goal should be to get through college.

I realize this fully. I'm currently enrolled in a high school alternative program that involves taking classes at the local college, so the college load is nothing new. The only real difference will be where I live, which should give me more free time, and more ability to help a team out.

EricH

06-03-2008, 19:33

Just from experience, I'd say you should focus on your own school work first. Starting a first team takes a lot of time and effort, and while it's a noble effort, your main goal should be to get through college.I second that.

Craig, if there isn't a team near you, don't start one. Or, if you must start one, get several helpers. There isn't enough time to do FIRST if you are involved on campus at all. (Other than checking CD:D... or helping teams during breaks.) Instead, find a college competition team. That'll take up enough of your time (I've a meeting for one in about 1/2 an hour...). If schoolwork doesn't take over your life, that is.

I'm not even trying to start a team here in Rapid City. I don't know where to start, the last team(s) in the area folded when NASA grants in the area dried up, and I got enough to do building airplanes. If there was a team within range, I'd be mentoring them if possible. There isn't.

KathieK

06-03-2008, 19:33

I have a feeling I'm going to catch a good bit of flack for this idea, but I'd like to get a sounding of it.

... make the team a VERY competitive team, that could be relied upon to bring a fearsome robot to each competition.

OK, so here's my "flack".

If you are looking to start a selective FIRST team for the sole purpose of creating a very competitive team, then sorry, you've missed the point of FIRST.

It ain't about the robots.

Wouldn't it be a better use of your VERY LIMITED TIME as a freshman, to get more students interested in STEM areas instead of limiting your team to only a chosen few?

Simon Strauss

06-03-2008, 19:42

Craig,

One thing to keep in mind is that when dealing with high school students what you see in a person at the beginning of the year changes significantly by build season. As Scott said above team 1155 has an application process aimed at filtering out those who will not be dedicated or are likely to goof off ( I can give anyone interested more details on our methods and the results we see) but we are often times wrong. High Schoolers are strange and sneaky beings and are not only willing to lie to get onto a team they think will look good an an application but are also capable of changing their minds as time goes on. We have on multiple occasions had students who demonstrated a deep interest at events before they even entered our school and appeared to be very promising in the first few months but later on for one reason or another stopped showing up by the middle of december.

Protronie

06-03-2008, 19:54

Got to agree with the others... put FIRST on a back burner...its okay they'll understand. Deal with your school work. You can still be a help answering post on CD or doing some long distance mentoring via email or phone calls.
Your school work should come first... we' will all still be here when you graduate with your degree and you'll be welcomed back with open arms...

Good luck on you future endeavors. :cool:

JaneYoung

06-03-2008, 20:06

Regarding the purpose of the thread and the application/interview process.

There are teams that do this.
There are teams that are open door, everyone is welcome.

Both types of teams have the same goals/mission and that is a successful FIRST team. Hopefully, everyone enjoys the experience.

There is a lot of work involved starting a FIRST team in a new area, as I'm sure you know, Craig. It has been done. Hopefully some of the founders of teams that were started in college will see your thread and add their wisdom gained from their experiences.

It's interesting. I'm not sure I like 'elite' though. When I think of 'elite' teams in FIRST, I think of teams who have worked hard to put it all together into a successful package of achievement gained through the years of trial, error, battle scars, and callouses. To start an 'elite' team would mean a whole 'nother thing.

Akash Rastogi

06-03-2008, 20:24

In my own opinion, the idea is awesome.

His point of an application/selection is not meant to rule out the spirit of involvement that is FIRST. I think its a a great idea for people who have moved on from the high school level and want to enter a level that simulates more of a corporate or business type of engineering experience because this will help lead those students into the life of the work force. Sure, high school teams do this as well, but I think the level of engagement Craig is talking about is to focus on a more advanced feel for the engineering and design aspect of the robot.
Other than being more competitive and a little more exclusive, I don't see how its that far from the inclusive mindset of FIRST.

"The team would be a very fast moving, highly competitive environment, meant to simulate a real world business as closely as possible. In order to have a robot design approved, a member must "sell" it to the Board (which would be senior students and mentors)."

(emphasis mine)

Good luck with it Craig:)

CraigHickman

06-03-2008, 20:52

OK, so here's my "flack".

If you are looking to start a selective FIRST team for the sole purpose of creating a very competitive team, then sorry, you've missed the point of FIRST.

It ain't about the robots.

Wouldn't it be a better use of your VERY LIMITED TIME as a freshman, to get more students interested in STEM areas instead of limiting your team to only a chosen few?

I see that I came across as wanting this for the sole purpose of being competitive, and so I need to jump on it quickly and apologize for coming across that way. The main point would be to weed out serious students, and to simulate a business environment as much as possible, from the way hiring works, all the way to product (in this case the robot) development and selection.

Sorry for coming across the other way, I slammed out the thread in a relatively short amount of time.

It's interesting. I'm not sure I like 'elite' though. When I think of 'elite' teams in FIRST, I think of teams who have worked hard to put it all together into a successful package of achievement gained through the years of trial, error, battle scars, and callouses. To start an 'elite' team would mean a whole 'nother thing.

Elite wasn't really meant to be a snobby type term, but more of show where I've found ideas for the team. Elite means I've gone through hell on a team, and watched others get torn apart by issues that could be solved by something as simple as a more corporate environment. Elite means taking most of the dead weight out of a team, in order to focus the learning as much as possible. Elite was more of my way of saying a selected, focused force, rather than a scattered group of students and mentors working feverishly to complete a task.

In my own opinion, the idea is awesome.

His point of an application/selection is not meant to rule out the spirit of involvement that is FIRST. I think its a a great idea for people who have moved on from the high school level and want to enter a level that simulates more of a corporate or business type of engineering experience because this will help lead those students into the life of the work force. Sure, high school teams do this as well, but I think the level of engagement Craig is talking about is to focus on a more advanced feel for the engineering and design aspect of the robot.
Other than being more competitive and a little more exclusive, I don't see how its that far from the inclusive mindset of FIRST.
Good luck with it Craig:)

Exactly. :)

The goal here would be to have the team operate as a business would. In order to join a company, you need to apply. If the position you're applying is already full, you can either get denied or apply for a different position (obviously we'd have to set a certain number of posts per job). Once you're on the company, you're going to have shop hours. You're going to have to make design changes rapidly, and then "sell" your idea to the Board in order to get funding and the ability to move forward.

I think a team like this could do a world of good, if properly managed. It would teach students huge responsibility, and immerse them into the business model much earlier than a normal team. There are a ton of students that wouldn't work well on a team this structured, and that's fine. Many students haven't developed to that level yet. However, I believe it would be immeasurably beneficial for the ones that ARE ready for it.

EDIT: I forgot to make this clear! This team wouldn't be based at a normal public high school. Instead, it would be based at a Middle College program, which is only populated by students who are either not very involved in the public school system, or who are far in advance of the normal schooling level. That locale would ensure a fairly professional applicant field.

XaulZan11

06-03-2008, 20:52

To go along with what Jane mentioned, I think it would be a challenge to start a team off with just lofty expectations and standards. I think creating such team take a few seasons as the team learns about FIRST. I know that my first year, I didn't really understand what FIRST was all about or how cool it was, so I probably wouldn't be willing to put all the time and effort into being part of an 'elite' team. If anything, I probably would be a little scared away by how offical and business-like it would seem. Now, however, I would love to be on a team like that, but that I after I learned how amazing FIRST is. I think the first year or two will be very challenging as you instal some of the ideals. I am very interested to see how that would go though.

To go along with some others concerns, I would wait atleast one year in college before deciding if starting a team is something that you can (or want) to do.

Melissa Nute

06-03-2008, 21:06

While you mention you are in an alternative high school program where you are taking college classes, once you are away from home & at college full-time, things will change. It won't be as easy as you expect it to be. That free time you think you will have isn't always there and it doesn't always happen once you get out in the 'real' world either.

Personally, I feel if you are looking to make an 'elite' team through an interview process you are missing the point of FIRST. FIRST is more than just a competition.

Jimmy Cao

06-03-2008, 21:36

Well, I dont mean to offend or anything, but i'll offer my $.02

My team was founded from the remains of a team that was highly selective, and that would turn members down. From what I heard, many people with great talent ran into issues with that last team.

Since then, we have always had the philosophy that we'll accept anyone who's dedicated and willing to be part of the team. For us, that means they are willing to offer 12 hours a week to the project. We do not do any "interviews" or "surveys" or whatever, and it's always worked out great.

Based on that, I feel that if you sampled the incoming members and only selectively allowed some in, then I feel that you're limiting your own ability. If we had such a system, I probably would have been turned down, as I was, as a freshman, quite useless. However, I, like most people, learned over time. I think that it's this learning experience that makes a great team, not just only inviting students who are good to start with.

Truthbetold, I, from time to time, do think some people shouldn't be involved in robotics, but then I tell myself, "I was that kid 2 years ago... and the leadership at the time prob thought the same way of me... and look at me now...". I think that's the philosophy that (all) teams should have.

From Alex Golec's sig, it said something along the lines of "It's never too late to be inspired", and how true that is. I think if you give all students a chance, sooner or later, that time will come. For me, it didn't come until my sophmore year. For others, it may come earlier or later.

Well, I hope that made sense...

Take care,

Pavan Dave

06-03-2008, 21:44

Kudos Craig. I like what you're trying to do, and if you need help you know how/where to find it.

KathieK,

To have a successful team that spreads the "STEM" message, you need members. You need members to start FLL teams, you need members to start EARLY team and you need members to mentor these teams as well as GEAR, BEST, and Botball teams. But you must have members. I would hope that teams don't kill themselves with STEM to the degree they can't sustain themselves. I would much rather see a team that establishes a strong foundation that picks up STEM after a few years than starting all of this STEM stuff from birth.

How do you get members? Competition. Why? Competition builds interest and excitement.

Saying "Hey join the IronSproks robotics team, it's FUNN!!!" doesn't cut it.
Saying "Hey, join the IronSporks, we were one of the top teams at our competition and we beat some guys that have been doing this for 15 years!! Come join, it's FUNN!!!" does.

Without members you have nothing. EVEN if you have administration support, EVEN if you have sponsor support, and EVEN if you have a large mentor base, without students you don't have a FIRST team.

Pavan

.

Devon27

06-03-2008, 21:53

Our team requires an application (essay, teacher recommendations, and a resume) and an interview with the mentors. I think it is a great idea, it gives us the oppertunity to practice skills that will be used later in life when looking for jobs.

Also, if you decide not to come back the next year, you do an exit interview. If you come back, you are required to re-interview and turn in an updated resume along with an evaluation of the year. These interviews are done with the mentors and any of the seniors who are graduating.

Although I don't think anyone has ever been turned away, I think this is a great method to teach useful skills and it requires students to work for their position on the team. It also helps weed out students who aren't willing to do the work from those who truly want to be on the team.

StevenB

06-03-2008, 21:55

So I'm going to be moving on to college next year (don't know exactly where yet, we shall see), and I'm looking to bring FIRST with me. One of my major choices does not have a team nearbye, and I think it would be fun to start one.
Go for it! I am currently a freshman computer engineering student. Given how much FIRST has become part of my life, I would pretty much have depression from January until April if I wasn't involved with a FIRST team. I didn't start a team here in Oklahoma, but jumped in as the primary mentor for a rookie team. It was a crazy build season (What build season isn't?), but I survived. Just make sure you have support from other students and teachers. If you're able to lay some solid groundwork during the fall, you should be able to pull it off.

I think there could be a fine balance between having a dedicated, professional team and making it seem like you are an exclusive, snobbish bunch. Your idea sounds decent, just be careful. :)

danshaffer

06-03-2008, 21:56

FIRST isn't (or shouldn't be) about taking the most talented or serious people. It is/should be about taking anyone who wants to come in and making them talented and serious.

KathieK

06-03-2008, 22:03

I misunderstood Craig's initial post, as he indicated earlier. My definition of a "successful" team is probably different from most other people's. My definition of a successful team has nothing to do with the competition outcome. To me a successful FIRST team is one that has inspired young people, who may never have thought of joining a robotics team, to get involved and learn more about science, engineering, technology and math.

I'm not opposed to an application system; in fact, I think it's a good thing for team leaders to find out why someone wants to be on the team and what their goals are so they can help them achieve those goals. Many student applications that I have read have said, "Because I think it will be fun." Well, that statement should open up a dialog with that person to find out why they think it will be fun to be on the robotics team, and from there, you can find out where their interests lie. It opens a dialog that should begin with the expectations of being a member of the team - time and financial commitments, etc. But I am not in favor of a team which is selective in their membership. Maybe I got shut out of too many activities in high school that were competitive, like sports, the newspaper, etc. And, you need to be careful in the setting you are in - in some schools a "team" implies a selective process will be used for membership and a "club" must have open enrollment. And the school often defines which type of organization you are.

CraigHickman

06-03-2008, 22:05

How do you get members? Competition. Why? Competition builds interest and excitement.

Saying "Hey join the IronSproks robotics team, it's FUNN!!!" doesn't cut it.
Saying "Hey, join the IronSporks, we were one of the top teams at our competition and we beat some guys that have been doing this for 15 years!! Come join, it's FUNN!!!" does.

Without members you have nothing. EVEN if you have administration support, EVEN if you have sponsor support, and EVEN if you have a large mentor base, without students you don't have a FIRST team.

Pavan

Exactly. One of the advantages of being competition focused will be greater publicity. Honestly, I've had a team lose sponsorship due to lack of competition prowess. Their reason was "Great, you're teaching students engineering, but we want our logo on something that wins."

As for the team name, it won't be IronSporks, however fun it would be to take my internet moniker and turn it into a team name. Most likely it will be something along the lines of Ninjaneering, or Mayhem Engineering (actually the "brand" of custom longboards that I've been building over the last year).

Laxphan1525

06-03-2008, 22:10

I can totally see your point in this discussion Craig. My team is a huge group of people and we welcome everyone. However every year it ends up being a small select few who make a big commitment generally seniors and finish the whole project. I see a lot of teams out there who have great robots but many of them have several well educated mentors who have been doing this for awhile helping them if not doing the entire thing. Our team doesn’t have these kinds of resources. To be honest i would love to be on a team who all appreciated all the opportunities FIRST has to offer as much as me. So in that respect if i was in charge of a team i would try and build a team of dedicated students who have a developed understanding of each aspect of robotics. I think a team of at least 20 to 30 dedicated students could split the work involved with first pretty equally and they would be able to create a very competitive robot. However the major thing i love about our team is we are completely student run and i was able to design, fabricate, and build every component on our robot. I think i would greatly miss this kind of opportunity on a team dominated by mentors.

Chris Fultz

06-03-2008, 22:11

First off, pay attention to the people who advise you to focus on college first, robotics second. there are lots of burned out college sophomores who wish they would have focused on school work more.

For 234, we have an application and interview process, and we do it for several reasons. We do not do it to create an "elite" team.

* students must take the time to fill out the application and answer a few questions. that shows an initial interest in the program.

* second year and on students must create a resume. they highlight their first experience and other info that they think we would like to know.

* students are interviewed by mentors. we get to know them. we explain the program, the time involved, other aspects of the team. we try to find out where their interests lie. first time students have it very easy.

* second year and on students have a 'tougher' interview. we talk about their past season, what they have learned and contributed, and what they plan to contribute in the next season. If there are concerns or issues with participation level, performance, behavior, etc. they are discussed during this interview. (I wish many professionals could deal with these interviews the way these students do.)

We have had several former students tell us that after going thru our team interview process, that college interviews and job interviews were relatively easy. they thanked us for giving them the skills and confidence to go thru the process.

Sometimes (rarely), students don't make the team, but it is not because they are not smart enough, or don't know how to weld or have some other skill. It is usually because they are not been willing to make the time committment, or there are grade issues to where the student cannot be involved in a school activity, or there were significant behavior issues, or they were simply involved in too many other activities for FIRST to fit in and we asked them to make a choice. We are over-accomodating for students who are borderline and work hard to keep them on the team.

One advantage of this type of process is that we have a very high retention rate. Students who are on the team in December are still there in April, because they know what is expected of them, know they have to attend and participate to be considererd part of the team and travel, and they feel a real sense of ownership on the team because they have worked to be a part of it.

synth3tk

06-03-2008, 22:35

I'm not at college level yet, but I know people who are. It's a real time-filler, you should really focus on that, at least for the first few years. If you'd like to keep in touch with other teams, I highly recommend Skype. Free PC-to-PC calling, now includes video (so you can see their progress ;) ), and very cheap calling rates for PC-to-phone.

http://www.skype.com/

I'm starting a new team, too, and it is VERY time consuming, not to mention a bit stressful. Your "business" plan is a good idea, if the students you are trying to appeal to are interested. Every region, city, and team uses a different approach or angle when trying to reel in more students and sponsors, if it works then kudos to you!

Akash Rastogi

06-03-2008, 23:03

Don't forget, it won't be JUST Craig. I would like to assume that anyone who wants to commit to his new team will have a role that is just as time consuming. So, in turn, the work load of running the team will be spread out. And honestly, I don't think people undertand that Craig knows his limits on this too. Like he said, he has a college workload already. Another part of spreading the workload is that students who will want to participate on the team and actually get in, will be accepted based on their merits of being both mechanically apt and will have strong leadership capabilities...just like an other team, the burden is not on one person alone.

JaneYoung

06-03-2008, 23:10

just like an other team, the burden is not on one person alone.
The elite teams have learned this.
The stable, dependable teams have learned this.
There are teams that struggle with survival because they have not learned this - sharing the load.
Or had this opportunity.
There are some break out teams that hit the ground running their rookie year, shortly after formation. There are more teams that form as rookies and don't have a break out year but have a successful year to build on.

How Craig develops his plans for the team and is able to implement them in the new area/location and gather the support that he will need/require will determine a lot about his rookie year before it even starts. That's the nature of it.

EricH

07-03-2008, 01:25

The elite teams have learned this.
The stable, dependable teams have learned this.
There are teams that struggle with survival because they have not learned this - sharing the load.
Or had this opportunity.
Exactly. I can think of two teams that come from one side or the other. One has had parents since the beginning; the other just got parents on board this year. One is an "elite" team; the other has the potential to be one.

Oh, and Craig--whereabouts are you thinking of going to college? Just out of curiosity.

CraigHickman

07-03-2008, 01:36

Exactly. I can think of two teams that come from one side or the other. One has had parents since the beginning; the other just got parents on board this year. One is an "elite" team; the other has the potential to be one.

Oh, and Craig--whereabouts are you thinking of going to college? Just out of curiosity.

I'm either looking at Whitworth University (Spokane Wa.), or Humbolt State (CA, closer to home, and has environmental engineering, which I like).

Jeremiah Johnson

07-03-2008, 01:40

Honestly, if 648 had an application then I doubt there would be a team anymore. The students on there are mostly ones that wouldn't pass through a weeding process but have brought things that help the team as a whole. There are, like every other team has, a select few that sometimes make it necessary for an application process.

As it stands, there is no application for 648, and I probably wouldn't recommend one.

Alex Golec

07-03-2008, 03:45

Some may say that in order to teach, the students must first be willing to learn. Others might say, that in order to teach, one must inspire the students to learn. I believe FIRST follows the latter - Inspiring students to learn.

I am a college freshman mentor. I declined almost everyone's advice on the ChiefDelphi forums about waiting a year to mentor, and I am have not regretted the decision - but, bear in mind, that I work cooperatively with 3 other college students.

Having transitioned from student to mentor, I have come to learn one thing - it's not your robot anymore. It's theirs. This program is about the students learning - and if you can find a way to promote that in your program, by all means do so.

Now that I have come through over half of my first FIRST season as a mentor, I have learned that the choices a mentor makes are tougher than I had ever imagined, all of which have helped to define a fundamental principle:

Student Inspiration Surpasses Award Aspirations

That was not what I had in mind when I joined. Honestly, I hoped for a group of "perfect" students in which the mentor role was minimalized and we could focus on winning game objectives. From what I understand, this is what an application process has the potential to do - draw in motivated students. However, that clashes my interpretation of the teaching philosophy because it can turn away the interested, yet shy potential of many younger students.

I joined this program because I saw an awesome looking robot and a bunch of odd parts on a table. I lagged in the program, did a minimal amount of work, until 4 days before ship date, when something in me "clicked" and spent those 4 whole days in the machine shop working my butt off.

In retrospect, the "click" was not miraculous - but rather generated by the gentle encouragement of my mentors. Dan mumbled stuff about rollers needing a few more parts to function, Ed showed me how to mill and drill a what-now-seems-so-simple part, Gail complemented that part and suggested that I do more for that system, and the cycle continued.

It is NEVER to Late to be Inspired

Because of the events of my freshman year, I hold dear to this philosophy in all aspects of my teaching,learning and life. Every curious student deserves an opportunity to join a team, and find what inspires them.

Hence, I respectfully disagree with your proposal, but encourage you to continue with FIRST - provided that it does not hinder your education - and your role as a mentor. However, as many have said here, do find some friends to share the burden and the benefits with you. With a couple more mentors worth of organization, you should be able to take on all the students that come your way.

Good luck and best wishes,

-Alex Golec

And in case you're still looking for numerical data, 469 has never had an application and has had about 24, 30, 16, 24, and 24 students in the last 5 years. 830 also has never had an application and has had about 30 students in each of the last two years.

Rosiebotboss

07-03-2008, 07:19

Kudos Craig. I like what you're trying to do, and if you need help you know how/where to find it.

KathieK,

To have a successful team that spreads the "STEM" message, you need members. You need members to start FLL teams, you need members to start EARLY team and you need members to mentor these teams as well as GEAR, BEST, and Botball teams. But you must have members. I would hope that teams don't kill themselves with STEM to the degree they can't sustain themselves. I would much rather see a team that establishes a strong foundation that picks up STEM after a few years than starting all of this STEM stuff from birth.

I'm confused. The whole idea of FIRST is to provide Inspiration and Recognition of SCIENCE and TECHNOLOGY. The last I knew Science and Technology was part of STEM. How can you have a FIRST team doing the right things and NOT be focused on STEM education. Are we not supposed to be teaching the students?

Libby K

07-03-2008, 09:19

I like that you are starting a team- good plan. I also think your business-like plan would work very efficiently and make the team work excellently together, and would prepare the students for real-life experiences.

However- I am not a huge fan of the 'application' process for NEW teams. (If an older team has, say 90 gazillion people from their school who want to join, then weeding out the unproductive people or people who are only joining for their college resume makes sense.)

From your post, it seems like you would be starting a rookie team, at a school that has not had FIRST before. I don't think it would be a good idea to exclude people from a brand new team- let everyone in the school see FIRST. Then, if they want to join it, they can. If not, it's their loss.

I personally don't like the idea of an application for a team- unless, like I said before, it's a veteran team with a lot of interest. In those cases, it's important to weed out those who are there for the wrong reasons-- AFTER they see a FIRST competition. Once they see it, if they're not hooked, they're off. That's what 1923 does.

Good for you for starting a new team- major kudos. I have done it, and it's really hard. If you have any questions about the process, feel free to PM me. I'm only sharing my $0.02 on the idea of applications- and you can feel free to ignore it if you choose. Just bringing some ideas to the table.

Best of luck to you.
Go (insert future team # here)!
:)

Pavan Dave

07-03-2008, 11:06

I'm confused. The whole idea of FIRST is to provide Inspiration and Recognition of SCIENCE and TECHNOLOGY. The last I knew Science and Technology was part of STEM. How can you have a FIRST team doing the right things and NOT be focused on STEM education. Are we not supposed to be teaching the students?

So there are two different types of STEM in first. The science, math, engineering and stuff that people learn WHILE participating in FRC is one thing completely. That is "inspiring people" period. Then there is another aspect of spreading STEM via. EARLY, BEST, etc., that. What I am saying is you must teach yourself before teaching a class.

To those who are complaining about the application process,
This team will NOT be school affiliated. It will have participants from schools but it will not be a "SCHOOL" team. It will be an extra curricular activity so there aren't even 10000 people to choose from, ONLY those interested enough that want to apply to this program and show that they meet X standards will make a strong team with some knowledge starting off which is better than having 50 people on your team but only 5 that can identify the difference between a standard and metric crescent wrench when it comes competition time.

Pavan

.

Rosiebotboss

07-03-2008, 11:21

So there are two different types of STEM in first. The science, math, engineering and stuff that people learn WHILE participating in FRC is one thing completely. That is "inspiring people" period. Then there is another aspect of spreading STEM via. EARLY, BEST, etc., that. What I am saying is you must teach yourself before teaching a class.

.

If you need to teach yourself any of the science, technology, engineering or math disciplines, then you should not be trying to run a team in the sense that this thread is talking about. A NEMO can run a team, but there needs to be a support system of engineers or tech ed trained teachers in place other wise you lose the spirit of the program, expose the students to the process and teach them about GP, engineering methods, deadlines, financial restrictions, personal relationships, the application of class room lessons and general life lessons.

I admit, I know nothing of Best or Early, so I cannot speak to those programs. If you are going to come into FIRST with an "elite" mentality, that is to win on the field at all costs, then you have missed the point of FIRST.

My $.02. Over and out.

Uberbots

07-03-2008, 11:50

We have an application, but its really just to get a feel for the strengths of our members, and where we should focus on improvement for the year. The only time we really reject someone is if they are a consistent negative influence, they are unproductive, or they get the team in trouble. So far, this has never happened (knocks on wood).

your idea for limiting applications though is flawed, because many people who want to join the robot team dont feel inspired to do much until they have been on the team for a while (i stress many because i know this isnt true for all). I think your idea of action, though would be positive in the buisiness world, actually goes against what first is trying to promote. you sure wouldnt get an engineering inspiration award.

I think though, that your idea of 'selling' robot designs is a very good one. We do a similar thing with a KJ process every year, break off into prototyping teams, and get going. Only the best of the drawn designs get prototyped, only they best (components) of the prototypes get built, and so on until we have a robot.

Joe Matt

07-03-2008, 12:22

I like that you are starting a team- good plan. I also think your business-like plan would work very efficiently and make the team work excellently together, and would prepare the students for real-life experiences.

I, totally, 100% disagree. I don't care if you know how to do the work or can handle it, that's only 30% of college. You have to do a lot more than just work, and ask anyone who's gone to college from FIRST and they'll tell you to take a year off. If there's one piece of advice to follow from this thread, take that.

I know a guy who wanted to start a team near where he was, talked to people, then go to campus. He joined Model Rocketry and Mini Baja, and now doens't go to those but instead goes to band parties, is in the swing dancing club, and is probably going to be part of band next year. I'm also trying to get him to rush Phi Psi. Take a guess who that is.

I also know someone who was gun-ho about mentoring through his university but dropped it and changed majors his first semester. He's a History major (lame x10) and part of the Alpha Sig.

The point is you have no idea where the winds will take you. Don't let FIRST hinder you and hold you back with your first year on campus, you need to grow beyond HS and stop reliving it, which I think some people need to realize in the program right now (not you, but just saying...). Do something different.

However- I am not a huge fan of the 'application' process for NEW teams. (If an older team has, say 90 gazillion people from their school who want to join, then weeding out the unproductive people or people who are only joining for their college resume makes sense.)

Agree in full, Beta Theta Pi on campus is a collony and has a lengthy application process, rush events, and high GPA requirement. Sure, they're getting guys, but at what cost to losing them when they graduate? Sometimes the most impressive and hardest working kids have the lowest GPA, or don't have that impressive of a resume. FIRST is about letting kids blossom into adults, not finding those who peak in HS and giving them an outlet to play in.

Drop me a line sometime if you want to talk about it more.

StevenB

07-03-2008, 12:59

Ask anyone who's gone to college from FIRST and they'll tell you to take a year off.
Anyone? As I posted above, I'm a college freshman and was heavily involved with a team this year. It was somewhat difficult at times, but I don't regret it at all.
I don't think doing FIRST in college is reliving high school. FIRST is a model of the real world, and even professional engineers gain things from the program.

JaneYoung

07-03-2008, 13:07

The point is you have no idea where the winds will take you.

What a great post, Joe. :)

The only question I have regarding the posts discussing the pros and cons of staying involved/starting a team/or not - is - do these comments and opinions address the purpose/questions pertaining to this thread?

The comments are great and deserve consideration but would they be better in their own thread/discussion regarding the transition from high school to college and the level of involvement of a FIRSTer?

Joe Matt

07-03-2008, 13:11

What a great post, Joe. :)

The only question I have regarding the posts discussing the pros and cons of staying involved/starting a team/or not - is - do these comments and opinions address the purpose/questions pertaining to this thread?

The comments are great and deserve consideration but would they be better in their own thread/discussion regarding the transition from high school to college and the level of involvement of a FIRSTer?

I felt that it's the right place to put them and I think that it pertains to the discussion, though I do at the end try to cover the main topic a little. It is still about a high school student who's starting a team in college.

coldfusion1279

07-03-2008, 13:13

I think you might find that in an area with no current FIRST teams that you will have difficulty "fielding" a team (of course that depends on population density)...

What I mean is, why even be selective? The more people the team has, the more ideas you get, the better your robot will turn out (if victory and glory is what your after).

I come from a team that had 10 active members in our rookie year (only up to 14 active, with 6 or 7 that contribute to strategy/building). We physically don't have the man-power to apply for things like the Chairman's award since the work load gets to be too large for the students (especially with students who do other activities).

The idea of becoming a business-like team is a very neat idea, don't get me wrong. But part of the reason that companies don't hire people is because they don't have the resources (money and space). People expect to get paid for their ideas in industry, but in FIRST, it doesn't work that way. All students want to do is learn about pneumatics and programming, and have some fun. If you had 800 applicants for the team, then you need to do some downsizing, but in general 60 people with a very gifted 20 people will outperform just those 20 gifted people.

And especially if its the only team in the area, why deny students the opportunity to get involved in something so spectacular?

If you give me a really good answer I will 100% support you in your venture, I would even offer to help (if I wasn't on the east coast) cause it sounds like an interesting idea.

StephLee

07-03-2008, 14:01

I have a personal anecdote of sorts to add to the discussion. If our team had had a serious application process when it started when I was a freshman, I would not be on the team and consequently would not be majoring in engineering, would probably still be painfully shy and indecisive, and would not have made some of the best friends of my life. I'd be going to a local community college instead of looking outside the small area I've known my whole life.

You see, I wasn't interested in robotics when I joined. I joined because I had nothing better to do during the winter of my freshman year, and the pictures they showed me looked cool. That's about it.

If you have a rigorous application process, you will certainly recruit members who are more likely to be productive - but you will also cut off some of the kids I believe you should be trying to inspire. The ones who don't KNOW they can love science and math. They won't apply if it's too difficult. The students you're trying to attract with the selection process will most likely come even if it's open for anyone; the ones whose lives you can completely change won't.

Just my $.02.

4throck

07-03-2008, 15:06

Any FIRST team based on the principles of exclusivity and winning at all costs goes against everything that FIRST stands for. Such a team would neither inspire nor motivate any student except the most selfishly ambitious. While your scheme may or may not produce a team that is successful on the field, it is not likely to produce many innovative engineers, or indeed anyone else besides mid-level managers. Rather, it would only educate participating students in the priciples of groupthink, kowtowing to the status quo, and a static conception of what constitutes innovation. Just because someone can sell an idea to a board of directors (i.e. an oligarchy) does not mean that they have anything useful to say. Such a team would only perpetuate passive conformity and suppress truly creative thinking.

We at 1418 have always strongly condemned any application process for our members. This has not only resulted in success on the field, but also in true inspiration. Our alumni have graduated from our program with a passion for discovery and a willingness to break the mold to find the best solution to a problem. Part of the reason for this has been our philosophical emphasis on content before appearance. A mere presentation of intent does not consitute a viable solution to any problem. No matter how slick a speil a student can put on a piece of paper, in the end it is the process of construction that defines the robot. This should be a learning process emphasizing collaboration and personal development before personal glory.

In the end, you have to ask yourself whether FIRST is about shutting people out, or teaching, including, and encouraging everyone who is ready to put in the hours and has something productive to contribute.

--Commander Rachek and 4throck

Melissa Nute

07-03-2008, 16:03

To those who are complaining about the application process,This team will NOT be school affiliated. It will have participants from schools but it will not be a "SCHOOL" team. It will be an extra curricular activity so there aren't even 10000 people to choose from, ONLY those interested enough that want to apply to this program and show that they meet X standards will make a strong team with some knowledge starting off which is better than having 50 people on your team but only 5 that can identify the difference between a standard and metric crescent wrench when it comes competition time.

Pavan

This is going to have issues come competition season when you need to get students out to attend. Schools will have to be affiliated with some support of the team otherwise the students are going to be in bad shape when they are missing classes due to FIRST events. A school official has to take care of the necessary paperwork to approve the time off for the students.

rachal

07-03-2008, 20:47

Personally, I never would have known I was interested in (or talented at, relatively) engineering if I hadn't done FIRST. What you're doing is starting up an uber-team just for kicks, which is awesome for competent FIRST veterans still in high school who have gotten too fed up with their original teams to work with them, but completely skips over the whole teamwork-and-get-kids-interested-in-science thing.

Mr. Van

08-03-2008, 01:19

Its not about the robots.

If you have FIRST in your blood, then step up to the real challenge and cross the line to mentoring, coaching and volunteering. Be a referee or assist in field management, or robot inspector. Or start a team and guide it in the ideals of FIRST.

But ask yourself, "Why?" and "Who am I doing this for?" If the answer has anything to do with "I like building robots" then by all means, build robots, but you can do that without FIRST. If the answer has something to do with "passing it on" or "sharing" or "inspiring", then let that be the foundation for your new team.

Good luck!

-Mr. Van
Coach, Robodox

Alex Golec

08-03-2008, 01:34

If our team had had a serious application process when it started when I was a freshman, I would not be on the team and consequently would not be majoring in engineering,

The mission of FIRST has been rediscovered!

CraigHickman

08-03-2008, 01:47

Hm, I guess I should throw this out in a little bit more detailed form. Here's what my brainsession has come up with so far:

-Applications. The main purpose of this is to target specific subteams, and to simulate applying to a job. The acceptance rate would be around 100%, unless there's a special circumstance.

-Business model for team operation. Students and mentors will have to present, and "sell" ideas for robot and funding to a "board" that will be made up of senior members and Mentors, and basically anyone who happens to be around at the time. Budget will be handled through part and funding requests, in order to simulate a corporate model.

-Leadership. After the team is established, the students will elect a CEO type position. The goal of this position is to see that the teams goals are met. These goals are as follows: To educate students on practical business skills and engineering, and to Keep the team competitive.

-Review. Like any company, the team will have review sessions. In these, they will go back over the season, or build session, and analyze what happened. Necessary changes will be marked, and implemented in the next revision or meeting.

-Location. The team (hopefully) will not be tied to a single school or location. If a student from another team in a different state wishes to help out with the team, they can apply and "telecommute" their work via CAD, internet, and USPS. Just as in a corporate model, there would be limits to this. In order to be considered to be a satellite member, the student/mentor would need to offer some skill or asset that a local member cannot provide.

The main goal here would be to simulate a business model. It wouldn't be a slow, mainstream business model, but more of one closely resembling groups like Lockheed's Skunkworks group; a highly specialized team of engineers working towards a common goal, with a structure surrounding them that allows creativity.

EricH

08-03-2008, 01:54

Akash Rastogi

08-03-2008, 01:56

The way I see it from the way it is explained above (which was the same interpretation I had before) Craig has a regular team, just more business oriented. More business and more advanced. By all means, I don't think his team's focus will be to have an unstoppable robot. I think its to have a more structured corporate environment (which I think could be something good for college teams).

Hope you keep going for it Craig:)

CraigHickman

08-03-2008, 02:14

Now that you've laid it out in a little more detail...

I kind of like it. I still think you should concentrate on college life, or get several other mentors to help.

Applications: I think most teams that use them use them like you describe. Likewise for review.

Your other ideas are kind of interesting. The location one kind of describes what I've been doing with 1135 this year.

Oh, there's no way this kind of undertaking would be a single mentor effort. It simply couldn't happen. I've got another person in mind who will probably be down to help out, once I find out where he is.

The way I see it from the way it is explained above (which was the same interpretation I had before) Craig has a regular team, just more business oriented. More business and more advanced. By all means, I don't think his team's focus will be to have an unstoppable robot. I think its to have a more structured corporate environment (which I think could be something good for college teams).

Hope you keep going for it Craig:)

Yeah, pretty much. I've taken all the issues I've had with teams in the past, and devised a system to work them out, while still keeping the freedom for new ideas and ingenuity.

ManicMechanic

09-03-2008, 01:05

EDIT: This team wouldn't be based at a normal public high school. Instead, it would be based at a Middle College program, which is only populated by students who are either not very involved in the public school system, or who are far in advance of the normal schooling level. That locale would ensure a fairly professional applicant field.

I'm wondering if you will find the population that you're seeking at a Middle College program. I teach at a Community College which has an affiliated Middle College. While there is a wide range in the quality and level of education at various CC's and MC's, often the level of the average MC student is even below that of the local public high schools. Many of the MC students I've seen are those who struggle in high school for various reasons, including social ones. Because of the prevalence of IB/AP, many talented HS students choose to receive public HS education, rather than prematurely move into college. My son's (pre-AP) high school intermediate algebra course was far more rigorous than the one that I teach at the local CC; this is the course that some of the most advanced MC students take for their HS math requirement.

Our CC offered a LEGO robotics class to MC students, but it was not as successful as hoped, because the students seemed to lack motivation to do anything, including robotics. When they were done, few had a sufficient grasp of robotics to program the robot to do more than move forward. In contrast, local elementary school students ate up the same material and performed spectacularly at a local FLL tournament.

=Martin=Taylor=

09-03-2008, 01:17

Hm, I guess I should throw this out in a little bit more detailed form. Here's what my brainsession has come up with so far:

....

-Location. The team (hopefully) will not be tied to a single school or location. If a student from another team in a different state wishes to help out with the team, they can apply and "telecommute" their work via CAD, internet, and USPS. Just as in a corporate model, there would be limits to this. In order to be considered to be a satellite member, the student/mentor would need to offer some skill or asset that a local member cannot provide.

The main goal here would be to simulate a business model. It wouldn't be a slow, mainstream business model, but more of one closely resembling groups like Lockheed's Skunkworks group; a highly specialized team of engineers working towards a common goal, with a structure surrounding them that allows creativity.

So when can we apply? :D

CraigHickman

09-03-2008, 01:55

I'm wondering if you will find the population that you're seeking at a Middle College program. I teach at a Community College which has an affiliated Middle College. While there is a wide range in the quality and level of education at various CC's and MC's, often the level of the average MC student is even below that of the local public high schools. Many of the MC students I've seen are those who struggle in high school for various reasons, including social ones. Because of the prevalence of IB/AP, many talented HS students choose to receive public HS education, rather than prematurely move into college. My son's (pre-AP) high school intermediate algebra course was far more rigorous than the one that I teach at the local CC; this is the course that some of the most advanced MC students take for their HS math requirement.

Our CC offered a LEGO robotics class to MC students, but it was not as successful as hoped, because the students seemed to lack motivation to do anything, including robotics. When they were done, few had a sufficient grasp of robotics to program the robot to do more than move forward. In contrast, local elementary school students ate up the same material and performed spectacularly at a local FLL tournament.

Hm, thanks for your input. The Middle College program that I'm at seems to be the opposite. With a few exceptions, the bulk of the students are there because the local High School wasn't challenging enough, or lacked the right course choices.

So when can we apply? :D

Well, the team technically needs to exist first... But if you're willing to help out, I'll take any help I can get!

Bob Steele

24-03-2008, 00:51

Hm, I guess I should throw this out in a little bit more detailed form. Here's what my brainsession has come up with so far:....

The main goal here would be to simulate a business model. It wouldn't be a slow, mainstream business model, but more of one closely resembling groups like Lockheed's Skunkworks group; a highly specialized team of engineers working towards a common goal, with a structure surrounding them that allows creativity.

I like this synthesis of ideas Craig... We could sure use you in Washington so think more seriously about Whitworth. We are trying to develop more teams in Eastern Washington and you could be a big part of that. Our team uses the model you are trying to produce. We find it hard to utilize e-mentors. There is nothing really like sitting next to an engineer and working problems out across the table face to face. It is worth a try though...

Let us know if we can help you somehow. Stick with it...

Remember... be quick, be quiet, and be on time.... wink

You have help from Seattle if you need it....

Good luck in your new venture!!

mgreenley

24-03-2008, 07:24

Craig,

Reading through this thread, it seems as if you are, in my opinion, taking the correct approach in regards to what you are planning on asking in your applications. When I joined team 341 in High School, I had to fill out an application. M.O.E (Team 365, link (http://www.fsrobotics.org/moe365//prospective.php#student)) also has an application process that I think, after a quick read-over, also looks similar to what you've described as your goal for applications in post 53 (link (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=714559&postcount=53)).

Overall, I feel that your idea is viable and wish you the best of luck in starting a new team. Deciding if an application is the best way is entirely up to you. All said, I feel that both the pro and anti-application parties can agree that exposing more students to FIRST is a good thing. Best of luck.

laurenlacy

24-03-2008, 11:45

Hey folks:

So I'm going to be moving on to college next year (don't know exactly where yet, we shall see), and I'm looking to bring FIRST with me. One of my major choices does not have a team nearbye, and I think it would be fun to start one. However, my idea for the team is a little bit different than most. I have a feeling I'm going to catch a good bit of flack for this idea, but I'd like to get a sounding of it.

The team that I may found would most likely require an application or interview process in order to join. The team would be a very fast moving, highly competitive environment, meant to simulate a real world business as closely as possible. In order to have a robot design approved, a member must "sell" it to the Board (which would be senior students and mentors). This would (hopefully?) make the team a VERY competitive team, that could be relied upon to bring a fearsome robot to each competition.

That idea being said, I was hoping to gather a bit of information on teams that may already have some sort of similar system in place. My main focus is currently on requiring an application/interview or not, and so it would help a ton if people knew of any teams that have this going already.

Are there any invite only, or application required teams out there?
If so, why do they only allow successful applicants on the team, and how does it help them?
Do they have a better chance in competition?
About how many members are part of these teams?

I think it sounds like a really cool idea but you have some things to consider, as many have mentioned above. First of all your college grades are really going to come first. That first year you are going to be overwhelmed with the social aspects of college, having all that free time and trying to keep on top of your grades. It's going to be hard to start your own FIRST team that year, so you might want to just take that year to work with the school and let them know what you're interested in doing, because it also will really help to have a schools backing.

With that said, the whole application/interview process can work, but I don't know that it's something you'd be able to implement right away, for a couple of reasons:
1) Initial interest: Our robotics team in its first year had 14 kids, 8 who actually did anything. If we had an application that first year I doubt we would have had more than 4 if it would be the type of application it sounds like a team like yours would need.
2) Continuing interest: That first year it's overwhelming enough just to try to build a robot. Add the competitive business aspect to it and I think you could end up with a lot of uninterested kids. I think a team like the one you're envisioning is going to have to take baby steps towards that vision every year in order to not frighten kids away.

Coming from a very small team that turned into a very big team, a couple other thoughts...

I personally think having a "board" who votes on robot design is a great idea. Leave the ultimate choice to the people who know the most about what will work and what won't. That still gives everyone a chance to have their ideas heard but allows for greater success, imho.

An application can only work if you have enough interest that you can afford to be turning people away. We would have taken any help we could get that first year, and the next year we had too much help for anyone to do anything useful. You have to be the judge of when your team would be ready to implement an application.

The number of students involved in teams requiring an application can vary greatly. Mine had 30 or so. It kind of depends on whether you want to have a business subteam, how you are dividing up the robot building, a number of factors. When we implemented an application I don't know that it went any better, mainly because even if you're gung ho about robotics at the beginning of the year and fill out a great application, it doesn't guarantee that you're going to contribute as much as your enthusiasm suggests. We had to ask a few people to leave.

Another thing is that as a college student starting a team, assuming you don't end up living in the same area you went to college, you're going to need to build a model of sustainability that works well in a college environment... your mentors, unlike on many teams, are probably only putting in a max 4 year commitment, and you need to build the framework of the team taking this fact into account.

Good luck!

SteveJanesch

24-03-2008, 13:43

Craig,

There's a bunch of stuff necessary to your plan that you haven't elaborated on, which you'll have to get going week 1 of your fall freshman semester:

1. convincing a school or group to start the team - especially difficult in an area where there aren't already FIRST teams, and no one's been to a competition
2. funding from said school or group, industry sponsors, and the like.
3. finding meeting space, build space, tools, parts, practice space.
4. finding other mentors (how many people did you envision on your review board?)
5. convincing parents to get involved
6. getting transportation to meetings, for students from other schools or if meeting space isn't on school grounds
7. managing transportation, lodging, meals, and chaperones for the trip to competition (our closest regional is 4+ hours away, in another state - it's a three day trip). Each state has laws about adults traveling with minors not related to them.

That's all I could think of in about two minutes.

My point is, if you're the one starting this team, then all the above administrative tasks are your responsibility before you even think about getting close to the robot. You might think you can farm them out, you may even get people who say they're going to do it, but you can't count on it. You've got to be prepared to do any administrative task that needs to be done.

What worries me is that your plan seems to be based on pure optimism. Have you started up a club before? Folks on this message board are here because they're already excited about FIRST, and know what it's about, so we don't need convincing how great a program it is. That's not true of most of the population - they haven't heard, and they need convincing. How thoroughly have you thought through your contingencies? What happens if there aren't as many students as you hoped, or their skill sets don't quite cover all the bases? How about if they don't get along with each other? Are you the right guy to step in and mediate? Can you settle disputes without having one of the parties get mad and quit? What gets your priority when your time is tight - your coursework or the kids?

Think it through. Be prepared to deviate from your original plan. Good luck.

- Steve

Team 135

24-03-2008, 14:16

Team 135 does this. Our team has to many people wanting to be on the team at any one time that we are forced to an application process to review possible canidates and keep the best that we can find. Also our group is part of a class. We have grades on how much we attend the build period. On the off season and times that we are not at competition we must write papers for the grade in the class. We meet once every other day for the class during the off season. Our team also work like a company that is that we devide up the different aspects of the robot to different groups. There are leaders asigned to each group that make desisions on how the robot is built (with a lot of input from their group members).

Hope this helps

CraigHickman

24-03-2008, 19:33

Wow, other people responded to this. I thought it was going to die down for a while.

Thanks for all the suggestions, folks. It's cool to know that there's people out there with lots of ready advice to help me on this. As for Washington, I'm very seriously thinking about it. Actually, I'm visiting it this week, so we shall see.

DarkFlame145

24-03-2008, 19:39

145 has an application, the first time I filled it out i was serious, but after that i just made a joke out of it. I mean I'm the team welder, why would they not let me in =P.

erikab

24-03-2008, 19:47

Our team (1717, D'Penguineers) participates in FIRST as the senior class and capstone project of the Dos Pueblos Engineering Academy (DPEA), a track of classes within the Santa Barbara-area public school Dos Pueblos. The DPEA is a 4-year program with freshmen through seniors, who take engineering, physics and computer science courses in addition to, or in place of, regular high school courses.

Seniors take a class that is dedicated to FIRST Robotics, thus there is a limit on the number of students on the team (32). Due to very high demand for the DPEA within our high school, we have had to start an application and interview process for 8th graders to enter as 9th graders. They then take 3 years of courses before participating in FIRST their senior year.

Once students are seniors, they run the DPEA and robotics class as a business, with students taking auxiliary business roles, in addition to those in engineering. For example, students work in public relations, media, web design, uniforms, school communication, etc.

We don't have students "sell" their ideas to a board during the build season, but we do have design review meetings, since thirty heads are always better than one. We have found that the application process helps to find qualified students, but that offering courses leading up to robotics also greatly increases student preparation for the season.

For more information about our academy and team, you can visit our website, www.dpengineering.org (http://www.dpengineering.org).

HOT_SOUP

24-03-2008, 20:10

CraigHickman

24-03-2008, 20:32

FIRST (Yes, I know you already know this) is for Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology. By having an "elite" team you definately will have the Recognition part covered, but your Inspiration will suffer horribly. I know that I personally would NOT have joined a team that had an "application" process, as it would have diturred me from the program by making me feel like there was such a thing as an person who is interested in, but unwanted by the FIRST program. When I joined my team, I could not tell you the difference between FRC and FLL, but am now a student leader/mentor and hold FIRST very close.

See, if you had read the previous posts, you would know that very few (if any) people would be turned away from joining, and that would only happen if it was CLEAR that there wasn't interest, or that there would be time and devotion conflicts. As for the Inspiration part, how is teaching students to design, build, and operate in a business-like environment NOT inspiring? I fail to see the connection there...

HOT_SOUP

26-03-2008, 18:28

As for the Inspiration part, how is teaching students to design, build, and operate in a business-like environment NOT inspiring? I fail to see the connection there...

My reasoning ("connection") is that It seems like you would fail to inspire people who were not already headed in that direction. FIRST is designed to GROW as well as IMPROVE the fields of science and technology. It seems like your team would only be covering the IMPROVE part.

I would like to see your REASONING as to why I am incorrect. Do not get me wrong, the prospect of an "elite" team is intriguing to me, as I am sure it is to everyone, but, as I said, I dont see it in line with the principles of FIRST

No need to be so bitter, either. What I said was my opinion of how your theoretical team would relate to FIRST principles, and I was not in any way calling you out or accusing you of something that deserved any heated replies.

CraigHickman

26-03-2008, 21:26

My reasoning ("connection") is that It seems like you would fail to inspire people who were not already headed in that direction. FIRST is designed to GROW as well as IMPROVE the fields of science and technology. It seems like your team would only be covering the IMPROVE part.

I would like to see your REASONING as to why I am incorrect. Do not get me wrong, the prospect of an "elite" team is intriguing to me, as I am sure it is to everyone, but, as I said, I dont see it in line with the principles of FIRST

Here's what I'm seeing here: You think the program would be designed to that only people who are already in FIRST would want to join. Not so. The entire point of the thing would be to take a FIRST team, which is already awesome, and make it slightly more professional. Part of the team would involve active recruitment, as well as program longevity. It's just like any company; if not enough applicants apply, the company will go out and market itself to workers in the field.

If I'm wrong, please correct me... I get confused by my own words a lot.

Tetraman

26-03-2008, 21:27

The best way, like THE best way to formulate an elite FIRST robotics team is to first generate an Elite FIRST robotics competition where first place finish is reguarded as a higher honor than a Chairmans award, but not to the point where GP and the Chairmans' award mean nothing.

I've been dreaming of a high-standard higher-competition FIRST for a few years now, but because of the GP within FRC there is little chance that there is going to be an 'elite team' greater than the teams we consider elite today.

SL8

27-03-2008, 00:26

is this thread still about the questions you asked

CraigHickman

27-03-2008, 00:48

is this thread still about the questions you asked

Yeah. If you've been on a team that has either the business model, or an application process, it would be cool to hear about the advantages and disadvantages of such a system.

HOT_SOUP

28-03-2008, 19:56

Here's what I'm seeing here: You think the program would be designed to that only people who are already in FIRST would want to join. Not so. The entire point of the thing would be to take a FIRST team, which is already awesome, and make it slightly more professional. Part of the team would involve active recruitment, as well as program longevity. It's just like any company; if not enough applicants apply, the company will go out and market itself to workers in the field.

If I'm wrong, please correct me... I get confused by my own words a lot.

I understand. I personally would not have such a hard core system as what you are talking about, but I no longer think it would be against First principles.

I say, go for it.

SL8

28-03-2008, 23:10

I understand. I personally would not have such a hard core system as what you are talking about, but I no longer think it would be against First principles.

I say, go for it.

as do I. It may one day become a norm.

theycallhimtom

29-03-2008, 02:12

I'm really concerned with the amount of time it takes to start a team. Its hard to commit to that much time as a college freshman anyway here is my experience.

I'm a college freshman now and over the end of my Senior year through the fall of my freshman year I started a business and basically put all of my free time into it. Around the winter of my freshman year I got to travel to Seattle because of the business and finally had a couple people willing to pay me. I absolutely loved what I was doing, but there were so many other exciting things at college. I basically didn't have enough hours in the day to do everything that I want. In the end the business was great, but I couldn't keep it up. I don't regret the decision at all because now I have a ton of other great things going on in my life.

My work load in college is less then in high school (my high school kind of prides itself of giving out a 4.0 about once every 10 years), but I find I have much less free time because there are so many exciting things to do on campus. So my recommendation is to wait a year at least before dedicating a large portion of your time to anything. But having said that in the end you have to do what you really want to do. Starting a business during my freshman year wasn't the smartest thing, but if I hadn't done it I would probably still be spending ever moment thinking about it.