View Full Version : Important 80 inches!!!
We went to the san diego regional and as we got inspected they checked for the 80 inch rule (marked down if over). There was like 10 teams that were over, but there was never a penalty during a match for the 80 inch. The inspection guy said that they just wanted to know if you're over 80. NO PENALTIES???? What is the ruling for this
The teams over 80 inches may have had software stops in order to stay in the envelope, and never exceeded.
lukevanoort
09-03-2008, 20:35
It is the inspectors job to determine if a robot can exceed 80 inches, it is the team's job to make sure it never does, and it is the referees job to assess penalties if it gets too large. Many robots are mechanically capable of exceeding 80" (my team's robot is one), but the code prevents it from happening, and thus there is no penalty. The little dots just mark if a robot can exceed 80 inches, they don't mean that, in normal operation, it does.
Vikesrock
09-03-2008, 20:35
During inspection the inspectors check to see if it is possible for the robot to exceed the 80" horizontal dimension mentioned in <R16>. The purpose of this sticker is to alert the referees to keep an eye on this robot during the match.
If the robot exceeds 80" during the match it is assessed a 10 pt. penalty. Many robots (multi-jointed arms, multiple independent moving parts) have the physical capability to violate <R16> (warranting a sticker) but have software in place preventing the offending configuration.
A robot can pass inspection despite being able to exceed 80" and enforcement of this rule is up to the referees.
But they went over 80 inches, so is it going to be inforced? Yes i totally agree with the fact that they shouldn't pass inspection
I have seen teams both live and on video that I know were over 80" when fully extended but the only time I have seen it called is when a robot has fallen over.
I think the refs need to be more aware of checking for this.
Laaba 80
09-03-2008, 20:38
How are the referees supposed to call a penalty on this?? It wont happen. I personally think that if you can extend outside 80in, you shouldnt pass inspection.
Joey
Russ Beavis
09-03-2008, 20:39
Being capable of exceeding 80" is not a violation of any rules. Inspectors have only been asked to identify robots that are capable of breaking that rule during competition. It's up to the referees to ultimately enforce the 80" rule. Inspectors are simply flagging the potentional violators for the refs.
A good example of this - a robot has a pair of arms (one fore and one aft) that exceeds 80" when simultaneously extended. As long as they only extend 1 at a time during the competition, they won't violate the rule.
Russ Beavis
Chief Inspector
smurfgirl
09-03-2008, 20:44
I dont think those teams should of passed inspection if they were over 80 inches
But they went over 80 inches, so is it going to be inforced? Yes i totally agree with the fact that they shouldn't pass inspection
I personally think that if you can extend outside 80in, you shouldnt pass inspection.
Joey
Just because your robot is physically capable of exceeding 80" doesn't mean that it will. Like many people have said, teams may have software in place that prevents it, or they may not use configurations exceeding 80" during gameplay. Why should they be punished for being capable of breaking the rules, even if they don't break the rules?
That is waht happened to our team and welooked through the rule book and luckily caught it. So we just shaved off a couple of inches that we were over and are now fine.
Laaba 80
09-03-2008, 20:46
Being capable of exceeding 80" is not a violation of any rules. Inspectors have only been asked to identify robots that are capable of breaking that rule during competition. It's up to the referees to ultimately enforce the 80" rule. Inspectors are simply flagging the potentional violators for the refs.
A good example of this - a robot has a pair of arms (one fore and one aft) that exceeds 80" when simultaneously extended. As long as they only extend 1 at a time during the competition, they won't violate the rule.
Russ Beavis
Chief Inspector
I understand where you are coming from, however I dont think the refs should need to worry about this. How will they know if iit went over 80in?? If they think it went over 80in, and they go and tell the team why they got a penalty, what happens if the team says its impossible because the code wont let it. The refs cant go out on the field with a tape measure, but the inspectors can. Also, many people were complaining about missed calls by the refs. This is a complicated game, and 80in is just another thing they need to watch out for. I personally think teams shouldnt pass inspection, however I know it isnt the rule.
Joey
The refs cant go out on the field with a tape measure
Why not? It happened last year with the 72" rule, and I've seen it happen this year.
Danny McC
09-03-2008, 20:53
Actually im pretty sure at VCU yesturday a team tipped over and the refs went out onto the field to measure them.
lukevanoort
09-03-2008, 21:04
I understand where you are coming from, however I dont think the refs should need to worry about this. How will they know if iit went over 80in?? If they think it went over 80in, and they go and tell the team why they got a penalty, what happens if the team says its impossible because the code wont let it. The refs cant go out on the field with a tape measure, but the inspectors can. Also, many people were complaining about missed calls by the refs. This is a complicated game, and 80in is just another thing they need to watch out for. I personally think teams shouldnt pass inspection, however I know it isnt the rule.
Joey
That is flawed logic. The exact same argument could be made for failing robots that are geared to travel faster than 4ft/s (eliminate high speed ramming), or practically any other rule (hey, if teams don't build a robot, they can't impede, lets just fail anyone who shows up with a robot).
Actually im pretty sure at VCU yesturday a team tipped over and the refs went out onto the field to measure them.
Yep, that would be 401 who tipped. One of the very few penalties I saw at VCU that wasn't associated with breaking the plane.
geeknerd99
09-03-2008, 21:06
Actually im pretty sure at VCU yesturday a team tipped over and the refs went out onto the field to measure them.
We were penalized for that during our last match, semifinal #2. We tipped over, and we were asessed a 10-pt. penalty on top of losing anyway.
We were penalized for that during our last match, semifinal #2. We tipped over, and we were asessed a 10-pt. penalty on top of losing anyway.
Di you immediately push your e-stop button?
Danny McC
09-03-2008, 21:10
I know I saw. I'm sorry about the loss. Im just stating the the refs will go on the field and measure.
efoote868
09-03-2008, 21:10
This is the "30 fps" rule of '06. If a team does do it, and no one notices, then how can anyone assess a penalty?
That said, be weary of your opponents during the matches, and if you think they're outside of 80", kindly pull aside a referee and ask, hey, aren't they greater than 80"? Then you've done all you can do, and you can only hope for the best.
Would someone post the rule for 80" (I need a refresher on it, before I can have more opinions). My last thought: If a team was tipping over, or entangled on the overpass in such a way that they exceeded 80", does it violate the rule? Seems to me that a few degrees could make all the difference to the teams that are soft-stopped at 80", but when they start going over...
Laaba 80
09-03-2008, 21:12
That is flawed logic. The exact same argument could be made for failing robots that are geared to travel faster than 4ft/s (eliminate high speed ramming), or practically any other rule (hey, if teams don't build a robot, they can't impede, lets just fail anyone who shows up with a robot).
So what happens if a penalty is called on your team for extending past 80in? I see where you are coming from, however this is one thing that the refs wouldnt have needed to worry about. It would be alot easier for the inspection crew to measure the rubuts full length than try to measure robot speed.
Joey
Laaba 80
09-03-2008, 21:14
Actually im pretty sure at VCU yesturday a team tipped over and the refs went out onto the field to measure them.
That was probably at the end of the match though. I highly doubt you will see a ref pause the match so they can go measure a robot they think is longer than 80in.
Joey
geeknerd99
09-03-2008, 21:19
Di you immediately push your e-stop button?
I was robocoaching, but I was giving the E-Stop signal frantically. I don't know if it actually got pushed or not.
Would it have made a difference if we hadn't prevented the other team from accessing both of their trackballs? We did not have a way to retract our arm, so we were stuck in the expanded position.
Are the refs being informed of the robots that can exceed 80" on a routine basis? How is this accomplished?
Laaba 80
09-03-2008, 21:35
Are the refs being informed of the robots that can exceed 80" on a routine basis? How is this accomplished?
The inspection crew puts a sticker on the robot that shows it can exceed 80in.
Joey
DonRotolo
09-03-2008, 21:36
But they went over 80 inches, so is it going to be inforced? Yes i totally agree with the fact that they shouldn't pass inspectionWhen exactly did "they" go over 80 inches? Please clarify.
If a team was tipping over, or entangled on the overpass in such a way that they exceeded 80", does it violate the rule? Yes, they are over 80 inches.
however this is one thing that the refs wouldnt have needed to worry about.
If a robot is CAPABLE of exceeding 80 inches, then the Refs DO need to worry about it. However if the robot is NOT CAPABLE of exceeding 80 inches no matter what, then the Refs do NOT need to worry about watching that robot for violations.
Now do you understand why some robots are marked and others are not? (As Russ Beavis explained in the second post.)
Don
The inspection crew puts a sticker on the robot that shows it can exceed 80in.
Joey
But do the refs routinely check for these stickers? I bet not. They have so much that they have to do already. Is the entire ref crew made aware of the posibility and how it can occur?
lukevanoort
09-03-2008, 21:39
So what happens if a penalty is called on your team for extending past 80in? I see where you are coming from, however this is one thing that the refs wouldnt have needed to worry about. It would be alot easier for the inspection crew to measure the rubuts full length than try to measure robot speed.
Joey
It depends on the circumstance. Our robot has a two-jointed arm, and if the wrist and shoulder are both straight out, we violate the rule. In proper operation, the software allows two shoulder states, up and down, which have their exact position chosen to make it impossible for us to go over 80" no matter what the position of the wrist is*. The software also controls the transition between these two states, so the wrist can't extend too far then either. For us to violate the 80" rule it we would have to either have a code error (which would be very obvious and result in us hitting the e-stop immediately given how dangerous our arm can be), or fall over. There isn't anything we can do about preventing the falling over problem, which affects any robot that uses an arm or forklift to hurdle. Anyway, my point is that in either case it would be very obvious that we had exceeded the limit and would go along with the ref's decision.
*Those that saw our robot at VCU will note that this is not how our arm acted. We were having mysterious bugs with our PID loop for the shoulder joint, which forced us to go over to fully manual control for all of our matches (we finally got it working while eliminations were being played). So, at VCU, we could have violated the 80" rule if our arm driver had messed up. If that had happened, we would again not protest the ref's decision because they have a much better view of our robot's profile than we do from the player's station.
Laaba 80
09-03-2008, 21:40
If a robot is CAPABLE of exceeding 80 inches, then the Refs DO need to worry about it. However if the robot is NOT CAPABLE of exceeding 80 inches no matter what, then the Refs do NOT need to worry about watching that robot for violations.
Now do you understand why some robots are marked and others are not? (As Russ Beavis explained in the second post.)Don
They still need to check and see if a team has a sticker, and if they do they need to watch them. I understand the stickers, but I think it could have been something easily taken off the refs job. Many people are complaining about missed calls, in fact that is what this thread was about. The less things the refs need to pay attention to, the easier their jobs are.
Joey
Laaba 80
09-03-2008, 21:42
But do the refs routinely check for these stickers? I bet not. They have so much that they have to do already. Is the entire ref crew made aware of the posibility and how it can occur?
I agree, they already have to much to look out for. They shouldnt need to worry about this. I dont know if the whole crew if informed.
Joey
waialua359
09-03-2008, 22:15
When our alliance partner 401 fell over and "violated" the 80" rule which was not in their control once they fell, it should not have been a penalty if the e-stop button is pressed. Just my opinion.
Al Skierkiewicz
09-03-2008, 22:23
As asked previously...
<R16> Once the MATCH has started, the ROBOT may assume a PLAYING CONFIGURATION that exceeds the size dimensions specified in Rule <R11>. While in the PLAYING CONFIGURATION, the ROBOT may expand up to a maximum horizontal dimension of 80 inches (e.g. all parts of the ROBOT must fit within an imaginary 80-inch-diameter upright cylinder). There are no height limits for a ROBOT in its PLAYING CONFIGURATION at anytime after the start of the MATCH.
You guys need to give the refs some credit. This year they are the highest trained volunteers on the floor. If they know your robot is capable and they think you have exceeded the limit, they will call it. For those that have not yet attended a regional, there is a test circle in the inspection station for checking. As during 06, the refs become very familiar with the operation of all robots by the end of practice. They could tell what robots were exceeding the ball speed limit and they will be able to tell those that exceed the 80" rule. The stickers merely helps them recognize the robots that are capable of exceeding, not those that do.
Al I give the refs all the credit in the world, they are a great dedicated bunch but I think they are asked to watch to much. I have seen robots extend over 80" during play (not by falling over) and it hasn't been called.
Trust me if it happens at Purdue they will be nicely asked to watch out for it.
geeknerd99
09-03-2008, 22:42
When our alliance partner 401 fell over and "violated" the 80" rule which was not in their control once they fell, it should not have been a penalty if the e-stop button is pressed. Just my opinion.
In all honesty, the call becomes a moot point, as we lost fair and square anyways. Also, we effectively blocked off access to both of the other team's trackballs. This might have been the rationale for the moot penalty.
However, this call just added insult to injury. It does bring the issue to light though.
waialua359
09-03-2008, 22:51
In all honesty, the call becomes a moot point, as we lost fair and square anyways. Also, we effectively blocked off access to both of the other team's trackballs. This might have been the rationale for the moot penalty.
However, this call just added insult to injury. It does bring the issue to light though.
But, in match #1, the other robot "appeared" to have broken the 80" rule, but no tape measure came out. Our penalty that we had was caused by having to go backwards to avoid you folks in order to hurdle the ball since we were stuck in the corner.
As we were in situation, I made the call to do it, since the other two choices were to either hit your robot to avoid going backwards or to stop playing and certainly lose the match.
If we didnt have those two penalties, we would have won the match.
But, in all "evenness" we won a couple of matches on penalties also.
My only thing was you folks shouldn't be given a penalty if you cant control the robot being helpless on the ground.
If the rules are that even though your robot is physically capable of breaking the 80" rule, but is allowed to partcipate never crossing it, then it shouldnt work against you, if you have no control. No one in their right mind would purposely flip their robot to fall on the ground.
Referees work hard to make the right calls. My argument is not on the refs, but on the specifics of this particular rule.
You guys were great, despite your hard luck, and we would love to choose you folks again if given the chance in Atlanta. I'm sure you folks will get it fixed in time and do well in April.
See you folks there.
Richard McClellan
10-03-2008, 06:20
When our alliance partner 401 fell over and "violated" the 80" rule which was not in their control once they fell, it should not have been a penalty if the e-stop button is pressed. Just my opinion.
I'm confused....is this a rule? I must have missed it. If our robot falls over (which would probably make it exceed 80"), should our team drivers hit the e-stop?
vic burg
10-03-2008, 07:23
I would say that there is a reference point that the referees can use to determine if the robot is over 80", is there not? I believe that if a robot is higher than the ball sitting on the bars, than it should be ruled as over 80". Granted, the bars are at 6' 6" (78"), and the ball is 40" (if I remember correctly), so therefore, if the robot extends to the middle of the ball, than it is at least a borderline of 80" or higher, and if the robot can go above the ball, or can reach the top of it, than it is definitely taller than it should be. (this is referring to a robot that has fallen over. As in, the robot went to turn the corner, and he tips over, and he reaches the full length of [his] half of the field. and of course, if there is a ball laying on the ground, this would help to determine it.)
Thus, a penalty should be called if the robot can reach the top of the ball or higher. At least, that is my opinion. However, it is, ultimately, up to the referees.
GaryVoshol
10-03-2008, 07:45
I would say that there is a reference point that the referees can use to determine if the robot is over 80", is there not? I believe that if a robot is higher than the ball sitting on the bars, than it should be ruled as over 80". Granted, the bars are at 6' 6" (78"), and the ball is 40" (if I remember correctly), so therefore, if the robot extends to the middle of the ball, than it is at leasta borderline of 80" or higher, and if the robot can go above the ball, or can reach the top of it, than it is definitely taller than it should be.
Thus, a penalty should be called if the robot can reach the top of the ball or higher. At least, that is my opinion. However, it is, ultimately, up to the referees.
Please go back and read <R16> - the 80 inches are measured in the horizontal plane, not vertically. Since the revision in Update 1, there has been no limit on height.
Everyone might want to go back and read all the rules in the Robot and Game sections, to be sure you are familiar with them before you go to regionals.
I'm confused....is this a rule? I must have missed it. If our robot falls over (which would probably make it exceed 80"), should our team drivers hit the e-stop?Yes--the new <G36>. If your robot goes over, hit the E-stop and you won't get any more penalties.
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