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This is only my second year being involved with First and overall my experience as a mentor has been great.:D But I would like to point out what I think could be the ugliest part of my experience.:mad: We competed in 2007 at Pittsburgh, Palmetto and the Championship. So far this season at Pittsburgh and will compete at Palmetto and the Championship. We have been very fortunate to have mostly females on our team and this is where the ugliness comes in, the language that I hear in the pits is unbelievable, I have went to team mentors and ask team to watch their teams language, I have went to the pit announcers and had them make announcements about watching language, but this weekend in Pittsburgh I noticed it is not just the young members but many of the mentors that are using bad language in the pits where not only female members are located and working but families with young children are walking and looking.:(
I strongly think that FIRST needs to address this issue and I wanted others opinions.
Thanks
K-Dawg
Team 2237
You make it sound as though females don't swear. I'm not saying that swearing in the pits is right, or what have you, but FIRST events are high energy, fired up events. Tension is VERY high on many teams, especially when things don't go according to plan.
Outlawing curse words from FIRST events is not going to work, people will still swear, and FIRST is about preparing people for the real world. People swear in the real world. Why should we play the protectionist role?
I don't like your implication that girls don't swear, and that its those filthy boys doing all the cussing. I know plenty of girls who swear.
There is no place at competition for swearing. I don't care how pressure packed it is.
If I hear another team using inappropriate language I will speak to their mentor. If the universal adjective is being used I will not hesitate to speak directly to the perpetrator.
Elgin Clock
17-03-2008, 10:30
I don't like your implication that girls don't swear, and that its those filthy boys doing all the cussing. I know plenty of girls who swear.
Hahahahaha! So true. Swearing is a human characteristic not limited to race, sex, or age.
What we have here is a balance between the GP world of FIRST, and the pit environment which is semi-rooted in a mechanical field of things not going perfect.
(The auto shop theory if you will).
Can you make a difference at the personal level and ask someone not to swear if you go up to them personally and ask them not to?
Probably.
Should FIRST be involved and ban swearing in the pits?
Maybe. But highly unlikely.
Overall swearing is not illegal and shouldn't be considered that at FIRST events. It's something that will happen.
Should it happen? No. But we don't live in a perfect swear-free world.
If you are offended at swearing the move should be yours to remedy that in people around you and to not rely on FIRST to stop it.
If you really want to, make an announcement over the PA system in the pits with a friendly reminder that children and families and (non-swearing) girls are present at the event they are in and to keep it under wraps.
if you wanted to go the extra step, hang some signs up that say "Entering a swear-free environment. - Please abide by the request to "keep it clean" in everything you do today" or something like that and throw your team number on that if your team is as adament* with this movement as you are.
Maybe it'll even win you an award or something doing that.. who knows?
That's all you can do at this point in my opinion.
Joe Matt
17-03-2008, 10:47
but this weekend in Pittsburgh I noticed it is not just the young members but many of the mentors that are using bad language in the pits where not only female members are located and working but families with young children are walking and looking.:(
I strongly think that FIRST needs to address this issue and I wanted others opinions.
Thanks
K-Dawg
Team 2237
While I understand your concerns and problems, I do have to wonder how much of a sexist comment that is. Women can't handle swear words and should be treated specially? Isn't that just somewhat wrong?
Can you make a difference at the personal level and ask someone not to swear if you go up to them personally and ask them not to?
Probably.
I don't have a problem with people doing this. This is the appropriate way to approach this problem, if it really offends you. I hate censorship with an undying passion, and think censorship in ANY media (print, audio, video, oral face-to-face communication, etc) is stupid. Self-censorship is better, but not by much. Its simple, if something offends you, don't listen to it. Censorship in music is the one that really bugs me. By censoring the song, you remove the artists original intent from the song, instead of just not listening to it, if it offends you.
Will asking someone to stop swearing near you because it offends you help? Maybe. It can't hurt. Will they be offended that you're trying to tell them what to do? Maybe.
All I know is there are plenty of places in life where I see people swearing all the time. (Though admittedly, I do tend to attend places where this might be more common: racetracks, other competitive environments, etc)
You can't protect people from it, and you can't outlaw it, so I suggest learning to not let it offend you. Things like the ever-versatile F-word. Its a word, nothing more. Its offensive connotation is all in how one interprets it. Ones that really get me are words like A** and sh*t. These are words that have a real definition. An $@#$@#$@# is a donkey. This context is used in the BIBLE, and yet, some people are offended by this word. Same goes for sh*t. I don't understand how it is any more offensive than poo, or feces.
In any case, the point I'm laboriously trying to get to is that it is highly unlikely you will eliminate swearing anywhere. You may however, be able to reduce it through making people aware that they're offending you.
While I understand your concerns and problems, I do have to wonder how much of a sexist comment that is. Women can't handle swear words and should be treated specially? Isn't that just somewhat wrong?
Some of us old guys were raised as gentlemen that do not curse around women, if that is sexist then so be it.
I agree it's not up to FIRST to police the language, it's up to the participants.
Joe Matt
17-03-2008, 10:55
Some of us old guys were raised as gentlemen that do not curse around women, if that is sexist then so be it.
I agree it's not up to FIRST to police the language, it's up to the participants.
That's fine, but I think the problem was more of protecting by censoring others than showing self restraint in a public environment where everyone isn't familiar with eachother.
Well, I could take this in a direction about women wanting equal treatment, and then complaining when they get it, but I wont.
I don't have a problem with people doing this. This is the appropriate way to approach this problem, if it really offends you. I hate censorship with an undying passion, and think censorship in ANY media (print, audio, video, oral face-to-face communication, etc) is stupid. Self-censorship is better, but not by much. Its simple, if something offends you, don't listen to it. Censorship in music is the one that really bugs me. By censoring the song, you remove the artists original intent from the song, instead of just not listening to it, if it offends you.
Will asking someone to stop swearing near you because it offends you help? Maybe. It can't hurt. Will they be offended that you're trying to tell them what to do? Maybe.
All I know is there are plenty of places in life where I see people swearing all the time. (Though admittedly, I do tend to attend places where this might be more common: racetracks, other competitive environments, etc)
You can't protect people from it, and you can't outlaw it, so I suggest learning to not let it offend you. Things like the ever-versatile F-word. Its a word, nothing more. Its offensive connotation is all in how one interprets it. Ones that really get me are words like A** and sh*t. These are words that have a real definition. An $@#$@#$@# is a donkey. This context is used in the BIBLE, and yet, some people are offended by this word. Same goes for sh*t. I don't understand how it is any more offensive than poo, or feces.
In any case, the point I'm laboriously trying to get to is that it is highly unlikely you will eliminate swearing anywhere. You may however, be able to reduce it through making people aware that they're offending you.
We are not at a racetrack or any other place where foul language is permitted. We are in what is supposed to be a profesional environment. (btw I have nicely asked people at a NASCAR race to please watch their language and they apologized).
We are teaching students to be professionals, if they use that language at any engineering/technical company I have been associated with they would be warned and then fired, period.
If FIRST is a "professional" environment, then we should be having the refs make professional calls, but thats a whole other can of worms. Making calls that are explicitly wrong per the rules, and not an interpretation issue is unprofessional. Period. (See: SVR Finals)
EDIT: Also, how can you say foul language is not permitted at FIRST events. Nobody ever said that, and its not in any rulebooks that I can recall, correct me if I'm wrong...
EDIT2: And I'm fairly certain nobody explicitly PERMITS profanity anywhere.
Al Skierkiewicz
17-03-2008, 11:03
Guy and Sam,
I agree with you. Sensitivity for language in front of females is something I was brought up on. If we are truly changing the world, why not try to initiate some change in language. We already make participants use technical jargon when describing their robot or software. I think we can all agree that even the pits are a semi-family environment. No need for rules from First, let's lead by example.
I'm totally for leading by example, and not swearing at events. But I'm just playing devils advocate, and pointing out that in the heat of the moment, people often forget things like this.
Tom Line
17-03-2008, 11:06
Heck, I'll admit to swearing during the Detroit Competition. I'm not particularly proud of it, but my work environment (shop floor and machine shop) is one where it's a normal part of everyday speech.
Had someone pointed it out to me, I would have hastily apologized to them!
That's the right track to take. Let's face it - kids are going to hear this stuff well before high school and FIRST. Having them see someone politely address it is the best way to handle it. Trying to somehow ban or penalize people for it? That would be yet another rule that FIRST couldn't enforce.
I'd much rather have them cancel the contract of the DJ's who play the profanity-ridden rap at several of the events. Hearing it in the pits is one thing - broadcasting it to the world is quite another!
Tom, theres a whole other discussion on the questionable music played at some events... Songs like "Save a horse, ride a cowboy". While not ACTUALLY having any profanity... the lyrics pose a questionable situation, and implicate things which are inappropriate. I'm sure a quick search would bring up that thread.
first off, girls do swear.
secondly, FIRST is very largely about replicating the real world. we do things now that we may be doing after college.
now please, show me an engineering firm that has a no swearing policy that is actually enforced. before I decided to become a teacher, I was an assistant technical director at a number of theatres. while back stage theatre is a bit dispaportionant with swearing to the rest of the world, when I would visit companies who make theatre equipment, who have a number of engineers working to create a better light, or a move efficiant tool, the amount of swearing I would hear from them would make me think they were a group of dockworkers(as the saying goes)
now I'm not saying lets just swear whenever we want. when I'm at the school, unless things are going really really bad(dewalt transmissions anyone?), I'll try not to swear infront of the students. and if the students swear for no reason, I will call them on it. and if they swear to another student, boy, they better hope I'm not in earshot. but at competition, unless a little kid is standing in our pit, I dont care if we swear when the bot is doing poorly, I dont care if we swear if it has reason. some times all someone needs in rough times is the satisfaction of yelling out a curse word. now if I were next to you, and swore, and you asked me to stop, yea, I would, but to make a rule about it, when its so increadibly different from the real world, would just be in my opinion stupid. I feel that if you have a problem with someone cursing, tell them, but unless theres a kid around us or something, dont expect everyone to change something that happens in the real world.
Dave Flowerday
17-03-2008, 11:15
We have been very fortunate to have mostly females on our team and this is where the ugliness comes in, the language that I hear in the pits is unbelievable
Some of us old guys were raised as gentlemen that do not curse around women, if that is sexist then so be it.
Sensitivity for language in front of females is something I was brought up on.
Well, I was raised to treat women as equals. I know quite a few females who would be offended by the comments quoted here. (See? Just because something offends you doesn't mean it offends others, and conversely, just because something makes perfect sense to you it can still be considered offensive by others. There's no possible way we'll remove everything that is considered offensive to someone from a FIRST event.)
If you all want to avoid using foul language, that's a great idea, but do it out of respect for the men AND women around you. If you all think women would be offended by it, then why wouldn't you think men would be too? K-Dawg, Sam, and Al, can I take your comments to mean that you would find no problem with swearing in the pits if there were only men around?
K-Dawg, Sam, and Al, can I take your comments to mean that you would find no problem with swearing in the pits if there were only men around?
No, I was just giving the context in which I was raised. I don't think swearing should be used at all.
Look I live in the real world most of the time and I understand that swearing is a part of it. I will most of the time overlook the occasional swear word but I have been in the pits next to a team who constantly used foul language and I had to have a talk with the students when it was apparent that their mentor didn't care. They apologized and stopped.
I just object to the train of thought that seems to say that cursing is part of the work environment so it's OK to let the kids swear away.
It's not censorship it's teaching the right thing.
Alan Anderson
17-03-2008, 11:25
...FIRST is very largely about replicating the real world....I feel that if you have a problem with someone cursing, tell them, but unless theres a kid around us or something, dont expect everyone to change something that happens in the real world.
Bzzzt! Wrong answer. FIRST is very largely about changing the world. We do expect people to act in a "better" way, and thus to improve the real world.
GaryVoshol
17-03-2008, 11:42
For those who find nothing wrong with swearing at FIRST events, try slipping a few expletives into your Chairman's presentation and see the reaction you get. Then have the students use the same words in the classrooms they return to on Monday morning.
It's not simply a case of inappropriate words in places where women (*) and children might hear them. It's a case of using inappropriate words in inappropriate places. A quick slip in the heat of the moment is one thing, but if you can't string three sentences together without using a dozen swear words, you need to re-evaluate your speech patterns.
(*) - by the way, in a case that went all the way to the Michigan Supreme Court a few years ago, a law was invalidated regarding swearing in front of women. A guy was tipped out of his canoe and let out a string that could be heard half a mile away. He was brought up on charges, but eventually the conviction was overturned and the case dismissed because the law specified it applied in the presence of women.
Akash Rastogi
17-03-2008, 11:55
As per our team, the upper classmen know not to curse, the freshman and us sophomores still get too riled up though sometimes. I recently made a presentation that addressed the issue and it actually worked. The freshies realized that they are representing an award winning team and that "got to them"
I'm not sure if you can really "ban" it from competition though, like stated above, its human and its just like any other competition where kids are having fun and also losing/winning. Now, you might say that its not like any other competition, but that b/c kids actually learn here in FIRST, other than that, it is still a competition that we all take very seriously. And in serious competition comes serious involvement. This could lead to some cursing if a robot topples over in an eliminations match or if it gets disabled in your last qualifier. It really hurts.
That's my own $0.02 though. MORT already discourages regular cussing as an adjective for any sentence-be it the sutdent is angry or using it for the sole purpose of as an adjective.
JaneYoung
17-03-2008, 12:04
It's pretty simple to me.
a. cussing/foul language under any circumstances shows a lack of professionalism and respect for self, team, and organization.
b. cussing/foul language shows lack of restraint and self control.
There is more to the competition aspect of FIRST than controlling the robot, there is the self-control factor.
Kindness and respect are a big part of how we conduct ourselves as members of FIRST.
Daniel_LaFleur
17-03-2008, 13:16
Cuss and swear words are in the English language. They have their place within the language and a time and place for their usage.
That being said, people need to learn to tailor their language to their audience (or possible audience). Since there are many different people around the pits (children, men, women, etc,etc,etc) we should be on our best behavior and choose words that have the least chance of offending anyone.
I doubt very many of you would use cuss and swear words at a job interview. The reason for that is that you are trying to make a good impression upon the person that you are interviewing with. Even though that is a pressure packed interview, you still only use proper unoffensive language. The same should be in the pits of a FIRST competition. Whether you realize it or not, you are making an impression of FIRST in all people that pass by your pit.
I wonder if FIRST has ever considered installing a 'primal scream' room at each regional. :p
First of all I was not talking about the occasional slip. We were pitted by three teams that used foul language regularly in their conversation.:(
As per my up bringing Foul language is never appropriate but less appropriate around Young ladies and families. I would not want someone cursing around my mother, sister, or daughter. Does this make me less of a person? No, I believe it shows proper manners and concern for others.:D
Thanks for all the feedback,
K-dawg :cool:
Which teams were they so that we could be able to address the issue.
JaneYoung
17-03-2008, 14:14
Many teams have a code of conduct as part of their expectations within their team. It is often written up in their handbook, business plan, and/or agreement that is signed at the beginning of the year, stating that the team member is aware of the expectations and rules and will abide by them. This would include mentors,students, parents who are members of the team.
It is a simple lack of respect and conduct of goodness to others. It is just rude that ppl. would include themselves in a vulgar langauge.
As per our team, the upper classmen know not to curse, the freshman and us sophomores still get too riled up though sometimes. I recently made a presentation that addressed the issue and it actually worked. The freshies realized that they are representing an award winning team and that "got to them"
I'm not sure if you can really "ban" it from competition though, like stated above, its human and its just like any other competition where kids are having fun and also losing/winning. Now, you might say that its not like any other competition, but that b/c kids actually learn here in FIRST, other than that, it is still a competition that we all take very seriously. And in serious competition comes serious involvement. This could lead to some cursing if a robot topples over in an eliminations match or if it gets disabled in your last qualifier. It really hurts.
That's my own $0.02 though. MORT already discourages regular cussing as an adjective for any sentence-be it the sutdent is angry or using it for the sole purpose of as an adjective.
i'd like to add on to what Akash said. Since this OP is a mentor, and thus out of school quite some time i'd imagine, I'd suggest you ask your school to allow you to eat lunch in the cafeteria one day. You'll think that FIRST kids are angles compared to what you hear in the cafeterias.
that being said, i don't advocate any sexist comments, cursing, etc. But we are all human, and i'm sure you yourself have caught yourself muttering a curse when your bot breaks.
Elgin Clock
17-03-2008, 14:19
Which teams were they so that we could be able to address the issue.
I don't think a public announcement should be made as to what teams have people who swear on them and who's do not.
Please let's not turn this into a witch hunt here & blacklist certain teams.
K-Dawg knows who it was, and came to us for some advice. If they run into this situation again, they have to make a decision as to what to do.
Let's not single out the swearing team. This isn't about singling out the bad apples, it's about how to deal with the folks who aren't acting as professional as you would like them to if the case arises.
i'd like to add on to what Akash said. Since this OP is a mentor, and thus out of school quite some time i'd imagine, I'd suggest you ask your school to allow you to eat lunch in the cafeteria one day. You'll think that FIRST kids are angles compared to what you hear in the cafeterias.You think high school is bad...Try college. 'Nuff said.
If you ever hear me cursing, come over and knock me over the head or otherwise get my attention and tell me about it. I try not to curse, but we're all human...
It's pretty simple to me.
a. cussing/foul language under any circumstances shows a lack of professionalism and respect for self, team, and organization.
b. cussing/foul language shows lack of restraint and self control.
There is more to the competition aspect of FIRST than controlling the robot, there is the self-control factor.
Kindness and respect are a big part of how we conduct ourselves as members of FIRST.
Dittos !!
It is very safe to say that a major part of what a team is doing is marketing the mission and values of FIRST to the general public. And there is just simply no accommodation for ill behavior.
If we have done our homework we should be surrounded by the public at our events. Just last weekend at the Peachtree we had 2nd and 3rd grade girl scouts in our booth and their grandmothers.
So I'm all for behaving.
Ok, I didnt want to sound as though I wanted a witch hunt or anything. I didnt want to sound rude. I was just curious. Nevermind.:D
Elgin Clock
17-03-2008, 14:22
If you ever hear me cursing, come over and knock me over the head...
So now we've gone from cursing to you reccomending physical abuse as a cure for it... greaaat... :p
Let's hope no one uses that approach. :rolleyes:
Btw, I know what you meant... Just something to get your attention. You don't expect someone to come over and randomly hit you. lol I just thought that was a rather ironic way you said it compared to the current problem at hand.
What's the saying?? "Stick & stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me"?
Obviously the person who wrote that never heard of the field of psychology. :rolleyes:
So now we've gone from cursing to you reccomending physical abuse as a cure for it... greaaat... :p
Let's hope no one uses that approach. :rolleyes:Let's hope they don't have to.;)
Nawaid Ladak
17-03-2008, 14:27
here is my $0.02
Guys, Their Just WORDS, cool down. words are assigned a certin meaning. it just so happens taht these words were assigned a negitive meaning to most.
cool down everyone, i know i swear, and i have done it in the pits. more than once in fact, and i certinly don't regret it (i expect neg rep for this, but remember this is my $0.02)
Which particular teams it was this time is not important. I have seen this problem at every completion sometimes worse than others.
I don’t mean for it to sound like it is always happening it has just been bad enough for me to notice it every time. These young ladies I am sure have heard it before and possible used it before but, their parents have trusted me with them and I don’t think a school activity is the place to just let that type of language go. It really surprised me to see how many mentors where allowing this without saying anything.:mad:
Thanks again,
K-dawg
In 2005, our drive team was warned by a referee about the language they used during a match. I didn't hear what they said, but the ref indicated we'd get disqualified from our match if they heard it again. Cursing probably is inappropriate at a FIRST competition, but I'd take it over sexism any day of the week.
You'll think that FIRST kids are angles
I frequently find them to be obtuse.
Brandon Holley
17-03-2008, 14:51
I don't think anyone in this thread is advocating profanity, and that it should be used in a FIRST competition.
Our team has implemented the "quarter" jar system. If someone on the team lets a curse slip, a slap on the wrist (not literally) and a quarter goes in the jar. Just a friendly reminder that we are trying to be professional.
If you make it such a taboo that if someone says it the whole world collapses, its going to make you very frustrated.
Everyone should do their best to avoid cursing at all costs, especially in front of young PEOPLE who we are trying to set an example for. Honestly though, people let it slip sometimes (I know i've added my fair share to the quarter jar), but making a big deal out of it is not the way to solve the problem.
If you hear someone let one slip, kindly remind them. I cannot see anyone at a FIRST competition becoming heated over someone telling them to stop cursing.
jumpe1990
17-03-2008, 15:51
So aside from the fact that this is a mentor driven post about a mentor coupled (is that the word I want?) problem let's get more student input.
I understand that obscenities are a big problem and the problem needs to be adressed but it can only be adressed on a personal level. If you considers others around you further then those you are comfortable with (who are in your pit) than you choose not to cuss.
One thing I don't understand is why it poses such a big problem. What has a cuss word ever done to someone? ESPECIALLY in a song, I mean what kind of... stuff....is that??
And a it's a bit chauvinistic (sp?) to target males as the majority source of the problem, in fact I think the mentors are the major culprits in this foul language...thing? xD
But ya know, maybe it's just me, everyone here on this team has parents in the army and our mentors are majority armed forces enlisted. Cussing is accepted easily here I suppose.
That's just my rant =\
647techangel
17-03-2008, 16:05
But ya know, maybe it's just me, everyone here on this team has parents in the army and our mentors are majority armed forces enlisted. Cussing is accepted easily here I suppose.
That's just my rant =\
especially if your dad was a drill instuctor like mine:D
Students learn from thier Parents and Mentors.You must put this into consideration,so what we do we directly learn from you.
Kims Robot
17-03-2008, 16:27
Im all for the constructive ideas presented here (ok we get that there are different levels of chivalry, old-fashionedness, real-worldedness, etc among all of us). I think K-dawg did the right thing in asking the teams around their team as well as perhaps a friendly reminder on the announcements. Ideas like presenting to your team to set an example, or like Elgin's hanging signs in the pits, or even the quarter jar are easy ways to try to extend the FIRST culture and professionalism.
So to the topic, yes we are all human, and many of us, I included, have generally let something slip. However, we can encourage it not to be an every other sentence practice, as we know that it might offend others around us. It is about respect. Saturday there were so many little kids coming through our pits to ask for buttons or to see our robot, that our students were constantly tapping eachother on the shoulder to be on our best behavior.
What I am amazed that I havent seen yet in this thread is the whole concept of GP: "to act as if your Grandmother were watching" or "to make your Grandmother proud". Now I know that many grandmothers may be "cooler" these days, and not stick a bar of soap in your mouth for saying a swear word, but many of us still wont purposfully swear infront of our parents or grandparents. Heck, I still feel weird swearing in front of my dad, and Im 27! He never swears in front of me... in fact I dont think I've ever heard him swear.
Does that mean I never do? No. Have I slipped in front of my students? Yes. Do I ever swear at work? Nearly never. Its not professional, and while some places may "swear like dockworkers" I guarantee if you go to any big engineering companies, its not commonplace. Its not professional and it doesnt gain you respect. I've not once heard any of our contractors swear in front of us. They want to retain our business, so they treat us with respect. Do I think swearing should be banned? or teams witchhunted? No, definitely not. Do I think teams should try and act more professionally at competition? Of course. FIRST is lightyears away from any major sporting event. You would NEVER see the Patriots give the Giants a timeout in the superbowl. So we should continue to act like it.
So going back to constructive ideas, i want to Steal Elgin's and modify it. Don't just make signs, make buttons! Do something like "I make my Grandmother Proud" or "My Grandmother IS watching (don't swear!)" or something like that, hand them out at events, or even give awards to teams for improving once you mention something to them. Perhaps stay away from things that are outside the FIRST culture (no-swearing zone may make your team seem goody-goody, but sticking with the Proud Grandmother theme is part of FIRST culture). Come up with a list of "20 reasons not to swear" or "20 things to say instead of swears", make it funny and catchy and hand those out at events. People will laugh but see your point.
But in the end, realize that some people wont change, that some students arent brought up to respect the wishes of others or to consider swearing wrong, or perhaps its commonplace on their teams to swear. Everyone is different, and in the end, we all have to accept eachother for who we are. I would like to think that if asked in the right way all teams would respect others, but often its either dismissed or ignored, if its not presented in a convincing manor. So figure out the motive for these teams that bother you, look at it through their eyes, they obviously dont see anything wrong with it (which each of us is entitled to), but figure out how you can convince them. Whether its through something funny, some cute buttons, or by talking to the right person on their team...
Joe Matt
17-03-2008, 16:40
Our team has implemented the "quarter" jar system. If someone on the team lets a curse slip, a slap on the wrist (not literally) and a quarter goes in the jar. Just a friendly reminder that we are trying to be professional.
Is the money going to fund the new church roof? (sorry, I love Hot Fuzz)
..These young ladies..
Thanks again,
K-dawg
That's my main problem. If you want to leave a good impression on your team and have the respect of your parents, why are you singling out the women, treating them as victims, then say you are not being sexist just protective. So the women have to be protected from the scary scary men who curse? Sexism isn't just treating women badly, but also much more strongly and protecting them more than men. I know you guys are mostly a women oriented team, but for those men on the team maybe if you show the same worry we could nip this in the bud quicker.
If you want to protect people from cursing at least make it a blanket policy and not some sort of singling out of people. Have it so that you want it to be a nicer place overall, not just for "ladies".
/end rant
*PS: I curse, and understand what everyone is saying, I'm more worried about the overproctective aspect of OP.
You think high school is bad...Try college. 'Nuff said.
I'm with Eric on this one... pretty sure college is ALOT worse than high school.
I certainly don't profess to be a profanity-free person, by no means. I like to think that I'm pretty good with it, and alot of that comes from when I choose to use such terminology. Reminds me of THIS (http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/appropriate_term.png) image.
Kims Robot
17-03-2008, 19:34
Everyone seems to be so caught up on the "young ladies" side of things here. Different people are raised differently, and there are many places where young men are taught to be "polite" around young ladies. I can't say Im in this camp or agree/don't agree, but I think its silly here to focus on that, rather than on the issue (profanity).
I'll be honest, occassionally its refreshing to look back at the old style of thought... I love it when a guy opens a door for me, or one story that I love to relate is I went to dinner with several co-workers and a group of our customers from Romania. All of my co-workers and the head sales guy walked into the room we were going to eat dinner in, and thinking I would be polite, I held back to let our customers go first... none of them would enter the room until I did because I was the only "lady" there. Part of it made me blush, and yes, I realize that often comes with the stigma that women cant get as high professionaly as men, but I think the core of it is being polite to other people, and upholding moral values. Im not saying people here dont have morals, but society now adays grows away from it in claims of "free speech" and "equality". I was shocked when this happened because I was so used to equality coming with lack of chivalry. They both listened to me at dinner and presented this chivalrous attitude.
Im not saying everything we do has to be women or men, chivalry or not, my point is that there are different ways that people are brought up... K-dawg is obviously from a different school of thinking than most students that read this are. Im somewhere in between. Agree or dont agree with the profanity issue, but stop attacking the "young ladies" comment.
What I am amazed that I havent seen yet in this thread is the whole concept of GP: "to act as if your Grandmother were watching" or "to make your Grandmother proud". Now I know that many grandmothers may be "cooler" these days, and not stick a bar of soap in your mouth for saying a swear word, but many of us still wont purposfully swear infront of our parents or grandparents.
In general, this is a very good idea. But we have to acknowledge that there are always the exceptions that prove the rule. For example, asking me not to swear in front of my grandmother was always sort of pointless - she was the one that taught me to swear. :)
(none the less, Kim's point is well taken)
-dave
Oh dave, what would the community do without you to play devils advocate for EVERY statement anyone makes?
Dan Petrovic
17-03-2008, 20:15
And a it's a bit chauvinistic (sp?) to target males as the majority source of the problem
Hehe. One of our female adults used to be in the Navy. You can imagine what she says from time to time. :rolleyes: She does work for the school, so she does have a habit of softening her voice before saying anything questionable.
With Dean's homework about getting more outside attention, it would make sense that we'd have a lot more younger citizens coming to watch. There are already many children coming with parents of competing students. FIRST could make an announcement at the beginning of each competition reminding that there are guests and children around and to try and keep foul language controlled.
However, Enforcing this should go back to the teams.
JaneYoung
17-03-2008, 20:41
I'm going back to the OP's opening post.
The concern is for the members of the team and the families that are in the area touring the pits. I believe we promote FIRST as being a family friendly event.
How do you know potential judges or sponsors aren't among those touring the pits? Many judges come from corporate sponsors and teams are always trying to develop stronger partnerships along these lines. Would you want your team to be responsible for having a potential judge or sponsor for FIRST change their mind because of your team's attitudes and behaviors?
--
I respect the concerns the OP had regarding the team and the families that were walking by. While at events, walk through the pits and see how many teams you can find that have pit and drive crews in which the majority are female. See if those teams are in the majority as a whole. Cussing and foul language aren't gender biased, trust me I know - but given the work atmosphere in the pit area and the gender majority of many of the crews, it can sometimes feel that way.
Danny McC
17-03-2008, 20:59
I don't really every use bad language on the competitions or in the pits. I mean is there really any reason to use the language in the competition for any reason? I mean I understand if something happen to you look your finger gets stuck and it causes you a great amount of pain. But even than you should really check your surroundings first. There are always little kids in the pits walking around with parents and siblings on the teams. Using that kind of language around little kids is even worse the using it around the Judges and Sponsors. I know that last year when in the pits after our last match I was showing my little cousins around the pits and helping them get buttons and the such. I guess something wrong happened to someone and as we were walking by they dropped the F-Bomb. My cousins didn't say anything but thats not the kinda language I want my 6 and 10 year olds cousins hearing. Thts all.
CraigHickman
17-03-2008, 21:03
Hm. My opinion on this issue is short and somewhat bitter: I have my First Amendment. If someone has an issue with how I talk, and how I express myself, it is up to them to confront me about it. I won't bow to ANY rule prohibiting speech of ANY kind.
As for the whole swearing being not that great for many reasons, this is a proper place to tout the GP flag: Act as though your grandmother were watching, and all will be well. If a situation is hectic/stressful enough to warrant swearing in front of a grandmother, then by all means, fire at will. But otherwise, express yourself in a professional manner, based on surroundings and conversation. We're a group of engineers (or wanna be engineers...), we should be able to self regulate this issue on our own. Oh wait, we already do.
K-Dawg,
I would like to apologize for any problems you had in Pittsburgh. I myself have occasionally slipped at competition and the disappointment shown on one of my mentors face reminds me to get my words right. If you addressed it with the organizers I'm sure it will be handled or checked into. You may have noticed the event was handled much differently this year. Last year we had fewer teams and yet felt as though our pits were smaller and congestion was a problem, this year much better. Small example but one worth noting. We in Pittsburgh want to build a FIRST Class event and afford visiting taems the opportunity to see what is good about Pittsburgh. Hopefully you will continue to come and allow us to fix the problems. As a teacher I share your concern about being responsible for your team. Your concerns are noted.
LOL great timing.
Court Will Examine Profanity Rules
(http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080317/scotus_broadcast_indecency.html?.v=2)
For example, asking me not to swear in front of my grandmother was always sort of pointless - she was the one that taught me to swear.And my grandmother washed my mouth out with soap. It didn't work. I still swear. I try not to swear in innappropriate places, like at FIRST events. I don't appreciate being sworn at, at FIRST events. Or given an attitude. I guess it's a matter of respect.
Thanks for the apology and I can say you are not one of the teams I noticed this from and I am not trying to shed a cast over the Pittsburgh regional it just so happened that it was our first for 2008 and I had this same problem in 2007, not just in Pittsburgh. I am not saying I am holier-than-thou kind of thing. If I were to feel extreme pain you may hear me say things I shouldn’t of course I would apologize to anyone who may have heard what I said. Its not the slips we all occasionally may make it’s the teams I noticed that could not have a conversation without the inappropriate language. It really doesn’t have anything to do with the young ladies, all though they did notice it. It has to do with appropriate behavior, this feeling that I can say and do what I want no matter what anybody else thinks or feels is exactly “in my opinion” what is wrong with this country. We have lost the caring and respect for our fellow “man” or “women” and in turn have no respect for ourselves.
Thanks,
K-dawg
Herodotus
17-03-2008, 23:51
MY personal opinion on the matter is that though profanity shouldn't just be shouted out left and right, you can't really fault someone for letting one loose when they've just found out their robot exploded and they have to build it from scratch again, or some such thing(you get the idea). I try not to swear, and though I sometimes do I usually say it quietly to myself rather than shouting it out. In the heat of competition, it is somewhat therapeutic to curse "ye robot gods".
One thing we should remember is that words are just that, words. They only have the meaning we give to them. Profanity is only profane because we agree it is so. It has no inherent negative meaning. The only time I see it as being 100% wrong all the time is when it is directed at someone else. I NEVER swear at someone else. At the robot? At myself? Certainly, but never at someone else.
Ljohn2040
18-03-2008, 00:00
Hm. My opinion on this issue is short and somewhat bitter: I have my First Amendment. If someone has an issue with how I talk, and how I express myself, it is up to them to confront me about it. I won't bow to ANY rule prohibiting speech of ANY kind.
As for the whole swearing being not that great for many reasons, this is a proper place to tout the GP flag: Act as though your grandmother were watching, and all will be well. If a situation is hectic/stressful enough to warrant swearing in front of a grandmother, then by all means, fire at will. But otherwise, express yourself in a professional manner, based on surroundings and conversation. We're a group of engineers (or wanna be engineers...), we should be able to self regulate this issue on our own. Oh wait, we already do.
Hear Hear...
I am fortunate enough to work for an engineering firm that doesnt care who says what, when. However, we are mature enough to know when to let loose and when to think twice and speak once.
Having said that, I apologize if I offended anyone at BMR..
:)
PrincessJae
18-03-2008, 01:01
you talk about high stress environments, and getting hurt, but a lot of the time I hear swearing in the pits for no good reason. Used at adjectives when telling a story or something-seriously as we are trying to be "professional" at FIRST and of course no one can outlaw it or punish you for it, but its all about image. The image of the program, and your team, especially when the judges are around. I guess it would just rely on each team to restrain themselves.
As for the female thing, seeing as I am one. I know the writer of this post did not mean it as a sexist thing nor should it be taken that way. Of course girls swear, and in many cases much more than a boy, but ive also learned growing up that there IS a certain respect that some men give out that is not sexist. Heck there is a guy at school that still tips his hat and greats me Miss Janessa. In this struggle for women to become independent a lot have mixed up chivalry with weakness. personally... id love it if when on a date i stood up to go to the bathroom my boyfriend stood up out of respect. its cute.
dtengineering
18-03-2008, 01:01
When I call students on their needless use of profanity at school, they always respond, "Sorry Mr. Brett"
I have to explain that they don't need to be sorry to me. They aren't using any words that I haven't heard before or offending me in any great fashion. Rather they are making themselves appear uneducated and uncreative by failing to use the appropriate adjectives, verbs and nouns to appropriately describe their feelings. In the process they are devaluing profanity.
There hasn't been a build season yet where I haven't let slip, around students... boys and girls (haven't quite figured out why that matters, but, as they say... whatever...) with a frustrated, quiet, but clearly audible curse. It usually happens somewhere around the fourth week, and rarely happens more than once.... and it captures attention.
Swearing is a matter of supply and demand... swear all the time about nothing and the words mean nothing, curse rarely, and for the right reason, and the words have power.
Helping young people to learn when it is appropriate to curse, and when it is not, is just one of the many aspects of education that never appear in the curriculum guides.
Jason
Mr. Freeman
18-03-2008, 04:07
Is the money going to fund the new church roof? (sorry, I love Hot Fuzz)
That's the first thing I thought of when I heard of that idea too. I suppose using language like the censored version of Hot Fuzz does would be an interesting solution as well.
Anyway, I think that a lot of people are trying to apply a blanket policy of "it's always OK to swear" or "It's never OK to swear."
That simply isn't the case.
Would you swear when giving your chairman's presentation, talking to little children, in front of your grandmother, in front of potential clients? No.
I don't think anyone is trying to advocate putting swear words into speech for the purposes of swearing, and I don't think anyone wants to hear someone whose vocabulary consists mainly of swear words.
However, the occasional swear word isn't necessarily a bad thing in my opinion. What else are you going to say when you're 80% done machining a part when you slip and put one tiny piece of it just outside of tolerance? It would be great if the majority of people could just say "whoops, oh well" and start over. In reality, this generates a large amount of frustration which, given no outlet, isn't a good thing. It's going to come out eventually, either in the form of a swear in the machine shop, or something else that perhaps actually damages the surrounding objects.
Swearing once or twice when you drill a hole in the wrong place despite your best efforts to measure properly, or when you run your arm into the overpass and snap it in half (actually did that), isn't atrocious behavior.
There's a time and a place for these words. Occasionally, the time and place is in the pit area. Just use some common sense when doing it. (I.E. Not when small children are around, not when judges are around, don't say it loud enough for anyone in the next pit to hear, etc.)
suequilter
18-03-2008, 09:50
I have been watching this thread. I believe it is the responsibility of each team to determine the standards of decorum and civility they will strive for. Each team tries to attain gracious professionalism in a number of ways. Just having this discussion may create an awareness of the issue which is great.
As someone who has attended more than her share of events and volunteered at regionals, I shudder at the thought of having the "language police" riding herd on our teams. At times the zeal and power exhibited by the adult volunteers has been a tad over the top!! :)
We need allow each team to set their own standard of behavior for appropriate language, manners etc. Learning the culture of FIRST is a journey, not a given.
We teach and learn by example and action. Thanks for listening.
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