Look Back: Week 5

[Looking Forward]

The last full week of regionals ended in dramatic fashion, with several of the most intense sets of eliminations we've seen yet. While different strategies and styles of play have proven viable, defense is an ever present threat, and alliance's have learned they either have to find a way to overcome it, or use it themselves. The "arms race" between defensive and offensive strategies is proceeding at a blistering pace, and was ever present all around this weekend.

In New Orleans 1477 proved their victory in Texas last week was not some fluke stemming from the Robonauts breaking in the finals. They enlisted the aid of 16 in order to beat 118 for the 2nd consecutive week in the finals. 1477 finishes the regional season with an incredible 30:1 win-loss ratio, including a 12-0 record in the elimination rounds. While they may not be the single most impressive hurdling machine, and they've enlisted the aid of other solid scoring machines at both events (namely the Bomb Squad in Bayou), they weren't playing powder-puffs either. They beat 118 (twice), 148, 79, and 1902 in the eliminations.
The Robowranglers perfect record could not escape Bayou either, where they suffered their first four losses of the season (three in the eliminations). 118 couldn't carry the load the same way 217 did in St. Louis, so the serpentine struck 148 hard as the #2 seed as they couldn't find enough scoring support from the 23rd pick to create a dominant offensive alliance.

870 threatened to win Long Island for the umpteenth time, but ultimately fell short in the semi-finals. The regional ultimately went to a pair of young guns and a veteran lap-bot.

When 20 and 40 paired up in Boston, it was all over. Only once in qualifications was 100 broken (and Trinity was involved), but this alliance did it five times in seven elimination matches. Their sole loss involved 40 getting hung up for nearly half the match and some nice defense by 97, and was by a mere 2 points.

Winnovation finally won a regional in Colorado, in dominant fashion. They went 15-0, and recorded the events sole 100 point match. They even won a 2 v 3 match by 60 points when they opted for 1592 to sit out a match to work out electrical failures during the Quarter-finals.

Considering the youth of the event, Minnesota shows promise for future years. When 525 and 93 paired up, they took the eliminations by storm though, with an average victory of 41 points in their 6-0 run.

Metal-in-Motion couldn't capture their 2nd regional of the year in their home state, losing in the finals to 2483, 386, and 1758.

The unified force of 987 and 39 destroyed the rest of the competition in Vegas. Both teams will head to Atlanta with a pair of golds (39 won Arizona and 987 also won Chairman's in Vegas). They scored 90+ in all 6 elimination matches, and broke 130 twice. For comparison, 100 was broken only three times in the qualification rounds, each time involving 987 and/or 39.

1114 got even scarier, if you can believe it. The Simbots lowest score of the weekend was 98. I'll say that again.
THE SIMBOTS LOWEST SCORE OF THE WEEKEND WAS 98
This was also the first weekend that they didn't lose a single match. They are the second team this year to join the three-win club, the fifth ever, and the first team to do it twice. They have won nine of their last ten regionals, seven consecutive Canadian regionals, and ten regionals in the past five years. They averaged an insane 6.5 hurdles a match. They even managed to score through defensive efforts. They paired with 2056 again, and added 2166 as the their third partner creating another all NiagaraFIRST alliance. Right now the Simbots are hands-down the most impressive machine playing in Overdrive.
1507 was very impressive all weekend as well, as one of the most consistent hurdlers at the event. 2056 was lethal when left alone and when paired with another scoring machine, and also managed to go the whole weekend without a single loss. So far they've won all four regional events in their team history (also been paired with 1114 all four times). 1503 showed flashes of brilliance, and put up a stunning effort when they had to go 3 v 1 in the semi-finals.

In some cruel act of fate, another set of amazing finals weren't webcast. The Philadelphia finals apparently rival those that took place in San Diego and Detroit, but once again most of the nation wasn't able to enjoy watching them. Here are a couple accounts of the action from some tipsters:
In the battle between arms (341 & 365) and launchers (103 & 272), the deciding factor was a robot that was neither an effective hurdler nor lapper. For the second year in a row, Chuck (84) played canny defense and avoided penalties to deny or delay their opponents scoring opportunities.
In the end the combination of two very good hurdling arms and a well-driven defensive partner was too much for the more powerful aerial assault machines to overcome. These three final matches were some of the best examples of the game that the GDC envisioned we've seen this year, and F2 may have been the best match I have ever witnessed.
The 103, 272, 809 alliance lost 809, who was capable of getting 8 or 9 laps, after just one match in the eliminations. 834, the Spartechs, replaced them. While 834 was a decent bot, they weren't terrific at anything. They obviously couldn't hurdle like 272 or 103, and they could only get around 5 laps, and they weren't practiced in defense.
The #1 Alliance cruised into the finals, destroying their competition along the way. They blasted the #2 alliance in the first match of the finals as well, setting a new regional high score (128? It's not posted on FIRST). Then Daisy, MOE, and Chuck fired back. 84 played enough defense on the ball to keep them in the game, but 365 put on a show. At the end of the match, the real-time scoring showed a 114-114 tie. 341 released their trackball a split second before the clock struck 0, and it rolled across after the match ended. After a lengthy discussion by the refs, the match was announced... a 116-114 win for the blue alliance. During hybrid of match three, the Cybersonics smashed into the land divider so hard that their left bumper fell off, and not crossing any lines (compared to their typical three lines and 1-2 balls). Chuck then managed to pink one of the red balls for around 30 seconds of the match, obviously hampering their scoring abilities. It was still dead even going into the final 20 seconds though. 103 was rounding the corner, about to go into their home stretch with a ball loaded, when they suddenly stopped moving. They somehow were stuck in the corner, while 341 raised and placed their ball on the red overpass. After ten point penalties to each alliance, the Blue alliance emerged 88-70, securing consecutive Philadelphia regional victories for 341 and 84, and MOE's first of the year.
103 definitely showed that they are still an excellent scoring machine, topping 100 three times in qualifications, and four more times in the elims. They are still limited by defense, but when they are paired with another big hurdling threat such as 272, it often doesn't matter.
365 struggled some in the qualification rounds (only having a 6-5 record, and seeding 14th), but had little trouble putting up huge numbers in the eliminations. Their roller claw and strong drive train made them very tough to defend, thus why their lowest score of the eliminations (62) came only after 30 penalty points on their alliance.

2008 is the 10th year 233 and 254 have competed, and it took that long for them to finally play together. And what a sight it was when they two NASA powerhouses aligned. Pink was nothing short of spectacular all weekend long in Hawai'i, recording a 10-0 record in the qualifications and besting 90 points ten times (counting eliminations). The only Pink could be stopped is if they fell over, which (with some help from the Funky Monkey's defense) they did in the semi-finals (resulting in their only loss of the weekend). The Cheesy Poofs improved massively since their last outing in San Jose, looking even more impressive than their twin, RAWC. With 233 being harassed by tough defense in the semis, 254 picked up the load and helped them survive.
968 and 25 re-united for the first time since making it to the Einstein finals in 2006 together, but fell to three native teams in the semi-finals. While the Raiderobotix hybrid was still deadly, their tele-operated scoring was a clear cut beneath 233, 254, and 968's, much more on par with that of 368, 2024, and 359. The combined one-two punch of 359 and 368 (particularly their ability to place for the 12-point bonus) was enough to send RAWC and 25 home without medals.

A mentor from a former FIRST champion called it the toughest regional he's ever been to. Eight of these teams would have been among the top three or four teams at every other regional this weekend. Great Lakes 2008 will go down as one of the most intense, competitive events in FIRST history.
217 came within inches of capturing their third regional of the year, but electrical failures in two of the three finals matches caused them to become unable to move. 67, 326, and 503 took advantage of this to capture their first regional titles of '08. The winning alliance was the beneficiary of either penalties or broken robots in each round of the eliminations, but survival is part of the game. HOT was the #7 seed and definitely prospered from the serpentine selection process. They managed to secure 326 and 503, two decent hurdling machines with strong hybrid modes. 326 improved as the weekend went along, but weren't quite on par hurdling-wise with the elite teams. Their hybrid, however, became lethal on saturday, capable of scoring 5 lines and knocking down both trackballs. They finally managed to win their first regional after years of being close.
66 found their way to the #1 spot after qualifications, but were declined by 33, 27, and 67 before selecting 217 (who was outside of the top eight). This caused the break-up of the major superpowers, which made the eliminations very interesting and unpredictable. 217 carried the scoring weight of the #1 alliance, although they often used 910 to supply them with balls or protect them from defense, and managed to get their alliance to the finals.
Rush was the second best scoring machine behind 217, averaging 4.5 hurdles/match during qualifications. They once again broke a drive shaft in the eliminations though, which spelled their defeat to the #7 alliance in the semi-finals. They paired up with 469, who improved their release mechanism and is much more deadly than they were in Detroit. Going into the eliminations this looked like the alliance to beat.
I will be very surprised if at least one team from GLR isn't on Einstein, and at least six have very legitimate chances.

[Aren_Hill]

Winnovation finally won a regional in Colorado, in dominant fashion. They went 15-0, and recorded the events sole 100 point match. They even won a 2 v 3 match by 60 points when they opted for 1592 to sit out a match to work out electrical failures during the Quarter-finals.



We finally qualified for atlanta...... twice! best 18th birthday present ever

[Freddy Schurr]

Quote:
In the battle between arms (341 & 365) and launchers (103 & 272), the deciding factor was a robot that was neither an effective hurdler nor lapper. For the second year in a row, Chuck (84) played canny defense and avoided penalties to deny or delay their opponents scoring opportunities.
In the end the combination of two very good hurdling arms and a well-driven defensive partner was too much for the more powerful aerial assault machines to overcome. These three final matches were some of the best examples of the game that the GDC envisioned we've seen this year, and F2 may have been the best match I have ever witnessed.

Quote:
The 103, 272, 809 alliance lost 809, who was capable of getting 8 or 9 laps, after just one match in the eliminations. 834, the Spartechs, replaced them. While 834 was a decent bot, they weren't terrific at anything. They obviously couldn't hurdle like 272 or 103, and they could only get around 5 laps, and they weren't practiced in defense.
The #1 Alliance cruised into the finals, destroying their competition along the way. They blasted the #2 alliance in the first match of the finals as well, setting a new regional high score (128? It's not posted on FIRST). Then Daisy, MOE, and Chuck fired back. 84 played enough defense on the ball to keep them in the game, but 365 put on a show. At the end of the match, the real-time scoring showed a 114-114 tie. 341 released their trackball a split second before the clock struck 0, and it rolled across after the match ended. After a lengthy discussion by the refs, the match was announced... a 116-114 win for the blue alliance. During hybrid of match three, the Cybersonics smashed into the land divider so hard that their left bumper fell off, and not crossing any lines (compared to their typical three lines and 1-2 balls). Chuck then managed to pink one of the red balls for around 30 seconds of the match, obviously hampering their scoring abilities. It was still dead even going into the final 20 seconds though. 103 was rounding the corner, about to go into their home stretch with a ball loaded, when they suddenly stopped moving. They somehow were stuck in the corner, while 341 raised and placed their ball on the red overpass. After ten point penalties to each alliance, the Blue alliance emerged 88-70, securing consecutive Philadelphia regional victories for 341 and 84, and MOE's first of the year.

The Finals-2 was a sight to see and everyone should see it when it comes available to the Blue Alliance website. Trust me, this has got to be one of the greatest matches you will ever seen.

[cziggy343]

The Finals-2 was a sight to see and everyone should see it when it comes available to the Blue Alliance website. Trust me, this has got to be one of the greatest matches that I have ever seen.

the finals at palmetto were very exciting too. two ties:eek:

[Racer26]

Yeeeah, 1114 really quashed the rest of us at GTR...

the 1503,1507,247 v 188,?,? (sorry, dont remember) 3v1 was rather impressive, and the 3rd round of that semifinal was lost by only 2 points. This was also one of the only times I've seen the refs reviewing a video (i thought this was explicitly forbidden via the rules, but whatever) to ensure they made the right call.

[hipsterjr]

LookingForward, once again you disappoint me. Ask anyone who attended Palmetto and they will tell you that it was the most intense final in the events history. Pit Admin. said you were there, but I guess not since you completely over looked Palmetto. Don't take this the wrong way; I know you can't watch every single regional and report every detail. Just thought it was worth mention.

[eshteyn]

Week 5 was horrible for us, we suffered immense mechanical difficulty and ended up rebuilding the transmissions, replacing 4 motors, 4 victors, and 4 gears that connect the motors to the transmissions. It was horrible, by the last day we went 4 for 4 and now were back to full power.

[Frenchie]

27 did not break a drive shaft. They tipped over after getting hit. It came as quite a disappointment as 469 played their best match yet, hurdling better than any other robot on the field.

[nikeairmancurry]

27 did not break a drive shaft. They tipped over after getting hit. It came as quite a disappointment as 469 played their best match yet, hurdling better than any other robot on the field.

Actually Nobody hit 27 they caused the tip on their own.. I was the driver and they hit me as i was stationary agasint my allaince wall and they tipped over when they hit us at full speed and then got the pentaly for it..

[Ryan Dognaux]

Actually Nobody hit 27 they caused the tip on their own.. I was the driver and they hit me as i was stationary agasint my allaince wall and they tipped over when they hit us at full speed and then got the pentaly for it..

Wrong, that match was a 'penalty free match.' Which I have no idea how - there were flags flying everywhere. I'd like to see the replay of just how they got tipped over, I suppose they'll be up online at some point. I wasn't watching that side of the field so I won't say anything, but to say the least, it was sad to see it happen.

[nikeairmancurry]

I swear i remember hearing the penelty.. but you could be right.. Yet i am sure that 27 feel over after hitting us fully extended.. for one it was my our robot that it hit and two it was right in front of me.. sad yes, but true so..

[Elgin Clock]

In the battle between arms (341 & 365) and launchers (103 & 272), the deciding factor was a robot that was neither an effective hurdler nor lapper. For the second year in a row, Chuck (84) played canny defense and avoided penalties to deny or delay their opponents scoring opportunities.

I honestly don't know how they didn't acquire more penalties for their "canny" actions. If only I was into conspiracy theory. :rolleyes:

It truly boggles the mind though.
Their trend definitely didn't start in the finals either.
The semifinals were a large "gray area" with no penalties given for borderline shady moves for defense as well in my opinion.

[Danny McC]

I honestly don't know how they didn't acquire more penalties for their "canny" actions. If only I was into conspiracy theory. :rolleyes:

It truly boggles the mind though.
Their trend definitely didn't start in the finals either.
The semifinals were a large "gray area" with no penalties given for borderline shady moves for defense as well in my opinion.

I agree 100%

[Herodotus]

I honestly don't know how they didn't acquire more penalties for their "canny" actions. If only I was into conspiracy theory. :rolleyes:

It truly boggles the mind though.
Their trend definitely didn't start in the finals either.
The semifinals were a large "gray area" with no penalties given for borderline shady moves for defense as well in my opinion.

Could you elaborate on what these shady moves were? It has been my experience that people are far overestimating how restrictive the rules are on defense. You can herd your opponents ball as much as you want, you can pin it as much as you want, and outside of their homezone you can push your opponents themselves around as much as you want, so long as it is within the bumper zone. If a red bot were to push a blue bot all the way across the field it would be fine so long as the blue bot doesn't have a trackball and isn't in their homezone.

The only thing I would like to say about this looking back feature is that we, team 910, managed to do more than simply feed 217 balls. In our last couple matches we managed to hurdle 3 - 4 times as well. Not the same level as 217 at all, but we weren't just the little feeder bot either. It wasn't so much that 217 carried the alliance as much as it was all three members of the alliance helped to carry it. It don't think we could have gotten as far as we did without all three of us working together.

No Atlanta for us, but hopefully we'll make a good showing in the off-season. See you all then, and good luck at Atlanta.

[Elgin Clock]

Could you elaborate on what these shady moves were? It has been my experience that people are far overestimating how restrictive the rules are on defense. You can herd your opponents ball as much as you want, you can pin it as much as you want, and outside of their homezone you can push your opponents themselves around as much as you want, so long as it is within the bumper zone. If a red bot were to push a blue bot all the way across the field it would be fine so long as the blue bot doesn't have a trackball and isn't in their homezone.

I would consider those all shady moves that have been played out by teams this year.

You are not making any friends on the field (or off) when you try any of these.
Maybe to some teams this isn't what it's all about, and that trophy means more than the spirit of the game.

Accidental tipping, or something like that is different, especially when drivers come over and apologize for actions like that even after a match no matter who won or lost. GP in effect! w00t!

But the above mentioned other actions, and thus finding loopholes in rules on the field won't make you popular in the long run.

That's all I'm trying to say.

[Herodotus]

I would consider those all shady moves that have been played out by teams this year.

You are not making any friends on the field (or off) when you try any of these.
Maybe to some teams this isn't what it's all about, and that trophy means more than the spirit of the game.

Accidental tipping, or something like that is differentr, especially when drivers come over and apologize for actions like that even after a match no matter who won or lost.

Finding loopholes in rules on the field won't make you popular in the long run.

That's all I'm trying to say.

I would in no way support any behavior that results in damage to the field or robots or anything that goes against the rules, but anything else goes(ok, not explicitly anything else, but I think people know what I mean). Pinning the ball, herding it around, or pushing your opponents are all perfectly valid defensive strategies, and in many cases are not only a good way to win, but the only way to win.

Imagine this, you are on a team that has two lap bots and one launcher. You just happen to be on the field against 1114, 217, and 27. The only chance you have of winning, guaranteed, is to pin both of their balls, and to never let them hurdle, ever. It is a tenacious form of play in the face of an overwhelmingly superior offensive team, and I doubt a single one of those teams would fault you for such a strategy, and would instead congratulate you on a game well played.

Moreover it is absolutely inspiring to me to see a team do this because it shows a tenacity and willingness to compete that is essential to gracious professionalism. Being gracious means following the rules, but being a professional means attempting to win while following those rules. We in FIRST often seem to forget the professionalism part of GP. Losing a match you could have won because some people decided they didn't like your entirely legal and nondestructive strategy is downright unprofessional.

[ParkerF]

The Robowranglers perfect record could not escape Bayou either, where they suffered their first four losses of the season (three in the eliminations). 118 couldn't carry the load the same way 217 did in St. Louis, so the serpentine struck 148 hard as the #2 seed as they couldn't find enough scoring support from the 23rd pick to create a dominant offensive alliance.


With autonomous playing a dirty game of roulette, chains magically throwing, and wheels coming out of alignment, I have finally decided why we didn't perform so hot on Saturday...

Chester is AWOL! :ahh:

[Ashley Weed]

I honestly don't know how they didn't acquire more penalties for their "canny" actions. If only I was into conspiracy theory. :rolleyes:



... ouch

[Zflash]

LookingForward, once again you disappoint me. Ask anyone who attended Palmetto and they will tell you that it was the most intense final in the events history. Pit Admin. said you were there, but I guess not since you completely over looked Palmetto. Don't take this the wrong way; I know you can't watch every single regional and report every detail. Just thought it was worth mention.

Often a person can overlook great things when they are next to other great things. Week 5 had many regioinals with many exciting events. After qualifications 1319 thought they too may have been overlooked after dropping out of the top eight on Friday. Luckily there was one great team in the form of 1249 who realized our teams potential and chose to go with us. We played a total of eight elim matches without any robot on the alliance failing or breaking with some better luck we may have all gone a little further.

[mark johnson]

[
66 found their way to the #1 spot after qualifications, but were declined by 33, 27, and 67 before selecting 217 (who was outside of the top eight). This caused the break-up of the major superpowers, which made the eliminations very interesting and unpredictable. 217 carried the scoring weight of the #1 alliance, although they often used 910 to supply them with balls or protect them from defense, and managed to get their alliance to the finals.
]

When 910 was feeding 217 balls was in the quarter finals because we were having problems with our launcher. Before the semi finals we fixed our launcher in code and did four hurdles while 217 was being defended by 201. This is a bit more than just handing off balls and running interference.Meanwhile 66 was playing great defense on 33 so it took a team to make it to the finals .

[waialua359]

I would in no way support any behavior that results in damage to the field or robots or anything that goes against the rules, but anything else goes(ok, not explicitly anything else, but I think people know what I mean). Pinning the ball, herding it around, or pushing your opponents are all perfectly valid defensive strategies, and in many cases are not only a good way to win, but the only way to win.

Imagine this, you are on a team that has two lap bots and one launcher. You just happen to be on the field against 1114, 217, and 27. The only chance you have of winning, guaranteed, is to pin both of their balls, and to never let them hurdle, ever. It is a tenacious form of play in the face of an overwhelmingly superior offensive team, and I doubt a single one of those teams would fault you for such a strategy, and would instead congratulate you on a game well played.

Moreover it is absolutely inspiring to me to see a team do this because it shows a tenacity and willingness to compete that is essential to gracious professionalism. Being gracious means following the rules, but being a professional means attempting to win while following those rules. We in FIRST often seem to forget the professionalism part of GP. Losing a match you could have won because some people decided they didn't like your entirely legal and nondestructive strategy is downright unprofessional.

I agree with this to a certain extent. Following the rules in playing defense is playing the game. If another alliance is outright a better offensive team, your only strategy is to play legal defense. With the right defense put on by good teams, ANY alliance can be beaten. Its been proven in matches both seeding and elim at various regionals in various weeks.
The agreed upon "best" robot(s) dont always win. Its always the best alliance that plays as a team with great strategy, with either outstanding or good robots.

[FoleyEngineer]

In an effort to make this game more "crowd friendly", I think the game designers wanted to reduce or nearly eliminate defense as a strategy and make it look more like NASCAR where there are bots just zooming around the field racing across the finish lines. I believe this concept is flawed for several reasons...

1) Basically, if it's "the team with the most firepower/speed wins" - which is what a purely offensive game really is, then I can tell you who will win before the match starts. The score will just show the faster / more-hurdling team getting farther and farther ahead until the two minutes of "fun" is over and one team has 100+ points while the other has oh, maybe 20 or so. Yahoo. Not a lot of crowd appeal there! You would hardly need to watch any match with say 3 hurdlers against 1 or even two good ones against one good one. It's like a basketball game where two guys on one team get to shoot baskets with each having their own ball, and only one on guy on the other does - oh, and there's no defense allowed! Just grab the balls and keep pumping them in. No suspense, not much strategy, and not much fun to watch.

2) Because there are so many rookie teams who can't hurdle, they have to do something. Without doing defense what are they left with? Lapping. Okay, it takes 5 laps to equal 1 hurdle. Even a basic hurdler that does it twice forces his counterpart to make 10 laps to tie him. If he places at the end, you can forget it. Where does that leave all the rookies and teams that can't hurdle? What do you want them to do?

3) If they really wanted it to be only speed and offense, then they needed to make the hurdles worth 4 and laps worth 2. Then you'd see an entirely different game. I'm glad they didn't because it wouldnt' reward the effort of making a hurdler, but it would eliminate the need for ball pinning, or anything else - it would just be a race.

4) The crowd appreciates defense! Imagine ANY game or sport with multiple players without defense. Basketball, football, hockey, baseball, even NASCAR has defense (people don't always politely move aside and let the faster car just go by). That's what makes the offense worthwhile! Heck if there's no defense, then you just run down the field and score a touchdown every play, right? That's not football, that's track and field!

5) Defense = strategy. It's a real challenge figuring out how to "counter" an offensive superpower, or how to team up maybe 2 on 1 (like Basketball or Football) to try and win. It makes even a slow lapbot feel worthwhile. We played with a team last weekend that could not hurdle or knock, and could only do two or three laps per match! It was tough trying to make that work for us, but we had them pin a ball and they slowed down our opponents and made a real significant contribution to the alliance! Take away their ability to defend, and you might as well tell them to go home and come back next year.

Bottom line is that you need both: offense - to be appreciated for the beauty and speed of racing around the track, or grabbing the ball effortlessly and hurdling so fast they hardly have to slow down, and defense to counter the scorers and make them WORK for their points and have to dodge traffic and race or even fight for the balls. I think that's what makes the game really exciting.

[Mike Ross]

When 910 was feeding 217 balls was in the quarter finals because we were having problems with our launcher. Before the semi finals we fixed our launcher in code and did four hurdles while 217 was being defended by 201. This is a bit more than just handing off balls and running interference.Meanwhile 66 was playing great defense on 33 so it took a team to make it to the finals .

The way you guys fed 217 in the quarters was awesome, considering the #8 alliance did such a good job of keeping balls away from them. When you started getting 3 or 4 hurdles a match, I was in shock. I kept asking people "How on earth were they available as the last pick of the draft?!?" I'm not sure whether this speaks more about the importance of good scouting, or the depth of the field at GLR. Either way, you guys were great.

[vadyr]

I completely agree with what has been said about some teams not being able to hurdle, or other teams being so good at hurdling that offensively there is no way to beat them. This means defense must come into play, but it needs to be clean defense. Pinning the ball against the wall may technically be legal, but why give such a low blow and be so unsportsmanlike. Instead, chase after that offensive bot and get in their way so they can't possess, hurdle, or maneuver as well. Even better: when that team tries to possess the ball, knock the ball out of the way so they can't possess it. These are completely practical defensive strategies which are not "cheap" or "low-blows". Taking away the scoring game piece in an offensive game is really quite blasphemous.

[fuzzy1718]

so what your saying is that a slow robot from a low budget team has to keep try and keep up with the souped up motors and gear boxes of a team with A LOT of money..... I say you are dead wrong and pinning a ball in the corner s no "low blow" it is a fair and legal way to sut down a alliance. Besides would you as a team rather risk drawing a penalty for impeding, while trying to chase/block an opponent or just pack a ball in the corner and park, what sounds more logcal?

[vadyr]

so what your saying is that a slow robot from a low budget team has to keep try and keep up with the souped up motors and gear boxes of a team with A LOT of money.....


I never said that nor did I imply it. I simply suggested that there are much better defensive strategies than pinning the scoring piece against a wall and defeating the purpose of this game. I'm sure if you were to call up Dean or Woodie or anyone on the game planning committee and ask them if they designed the game to see teams pin the ball against the wall and cause the game to come to a crawl or a halt, they would say no. I can only hope to see a match where all four balls are pinned and the other two robots are just cruising around running laps -- then what would be said.

[Sunshine]

I can only hope to see a match where all four balls are pinned and the other two robots are just cruising around running laps -- then what would be said.

You just took the words right out of my mouth. This is the scenario I kept playing in my mind. Boy, would that be fun (insert sarcasm here). I don't think the fans or the competitors would enjoy this much. And I do not think the game designers wanted this.

Unfortunately, the maneuver of pinning the ball is NOT illegal. Telling people that their actions are shady and it's blasphemy is foolish. If FIRST doesn't condone these types of actions, they would change the rules or come out with updates. If judges think that your actions are unsportsmanlike, they give you a yellow card or DQ you.

And this perspective comes from a team who built a purely offensive robot. My reaction to the defensive teams and their maneuvers, "bring it on". The alliance that wins should be the one that reacts best to the ever changing strategy of the game. I saw completely different strategy in Atlanta last year than what I saw in a regional, that was cool.

Since everyone else is giving professional sports analogies I will too :-) I hate watching basketball teams slow the game by going to four corners. This IMHO this is boring, but I totally understand why they do it. I would never tell these teams that they were shady and it's blasphemy nor would I tell them that they were unprofessional.

[GaryVoshol]

I am not sure where people got the idea that this was a "no-defense" game. It is a game with a different kind of defense. In past games, robots often played defense by keeping the opponents away from the target - the Rack, the Tetra goals, etc. In this game, we've been told we can only keep robots away from their "target" of moving around the Track for 6 seconds, and cannot hinder them at all in their pursuit of the "target" of a hurdle. There has been no limitation on keeping robots away from the trackballs.

Quotes from the Q&A which show the GDC has reiterated this:

FIRST Overdrive has never been defined as an "all-offense, no-defense game." Defensive strategies, used appropriately, are perfectly acceptable.
A Robot, and any Trackball in the possession of that Robot, only receives protection from interference while it is in the process of Hurdling (as specified in Rule <G42>). Neither the Robot nor the Trackball receive any special protection at any other time.
There is no rule that would prohibit the blocking robot's action. There are also no rules that would prohibit an appropriate counter measure by your robot. This scenario would likely become a pushing match.

[tennispro9911]

Rules are written to be followed. FIRST went over the rules numerous times and I'm sure accounted for many defensive manuevers that teams would come up with. They debated this before us. Don't think we came up with a strategy they didn't. THERE ARE ONLY TWO TRACKBALLS! What does that tell you? They expect a team not to be able to or have to hurdle. What can a team do to be most effective without hurdling? Defense. Pure and simple, defense was expected and written into the rules. It is not against GP. In fact I'd argue that if a team has a strategy that can win, and they chose not to follow that perfectly legal strategy that is against GP. It is unfair to their alliance partners to not follow the most effective strategy. If FIRST didn't want defense, they would have the two alliances play on seperate fields and see which alliance scored more points at the end. It would be completely boring but it would stop these supposedly unfair practices.

[Craig Roys]

I can only hope to see a match where all four balls are pinned and the other two robots are just cruising around running laps -- then what would be said.

I cannot envision this ever happening (of course, never say never, eh?). The only reason an alliance would choose that strategy is if they were going up against 2 or 3 good hurdlers with only 1 or none on their side. Two alliances going against each other when both have 2 or 3 good hurdlers are going to send 1 'bot out for defense and the other 2 will hurdle/lap or maybe play keep away, but not pinning. I won't say it would never happen, but it would be a strange scenario. I believe that in this type of match up, the alliances would opt for the "shootout" as they are offesively minded teams - look at the finals in Detroit. They were some of the highest total scoring matches that I've seen.

As for teams with hurdling robots getting mad a teams who play a defensive/pinning type game - no way. We are a hurdling robot and had a ton of defense play on us at GLR. Did I get frustrated with it? Yes. Did I get mad at the other team for doing it? Heck, no! I congratulate them for a strategy that worked for them. It's called competition - do what you can within the rules (and without trying to harm another robot) to gain an advantage. I would say there is nothing ungracious or unprofessional about playing a defensive strategy - this coming from an offensively minded team.

[T3_1565]

I cannot envision this ever happening (of course, never say never, eh?). The only reason an alliance would choose that strategy is if they were going up against 2 or 3 good hurdlers with only 1 or none on their side. Two alliances going against each other when both have 2 or 3 good hurdlers are going to send 1 'bot out for defense and the other 2 will hurdle/lap or maybe play keep away, but not pinning. I won't say it would never happen, but it would be a strange scenario. I believe that in this type of match up, the alliances would opt for the "shootout" as they are offesively minded teams - look at the finals in Detroit. They were some of the highest total scoring matches that I've seen.

As for teams with hurdling robots getting mad a teams who play a defensive/pinning type game - no way. We are a hurdling robot and had a ton of defense play on us at GLR. Did I get frustrated with it? Yes. Did I get mad at the other team for doing it? Heck, no! I congratulate them for a strategy that worked for them. It's called competition - do what you can within the rules (and without trying to harm another robot) to gain an advantage. I would say there is nothing ungracious or unprofessional about playing a defensive strategy - this coming from an offensively minded team.

Agreed, defense is in every other sport that involves a team vs team interaction... so get use to it, it's much like a basetball team calling a foul on purpose to pause the clock, or a pitcher intentionally hitting the other teams best batter (or walking them on purpose)

[mark johnson]

The way you guys fed 217 in the quarters was awesome, considering the #8 alliance did such a good job of keeping balls away from them. When you started getting 3 or 4 hurdles a match, I was in shock. I kept asking people "How on earth were they available as the last pick of the draft?!?" I'm not sure whether this speaks more about the importance of good scouting, or the depth of the field at GLR. Either way, you guys were great.

Thank you for the complement. But your right a combination of the depth of talent at GLR, and great scouting by 66 The Flyers & 217 The Thunderchickens . SALUTE

[IKE]

I am from a very offensive team. Defense is part of teh strategy and I was very happen to see it being done well. 66 did a fantastic job at keeping the ball away from us and one of our partners 201 really worked over the thunderchikens.
My only gripe with defense was that in the eliminations there were several contact outside the bumper zone calls called on many of the hurdling teams (27, 217, 33, 67, 70, 494......). In one particular match we got 2 (yep -20 points) for a "defensive" bot hitting our arm. Let me clarify this. We were going for the ball and they drove into our arm and we got the penalty. Due to this interpretation of "incidental" contact not being "incidental", we could no longer play the game the way we had at other regionals and for that matter the rest of the weekend. It was very disheartening to go from only having a couple line penalties the first day and 1/2 to 7 (haven't reviewed the tapes yet, but this is about right) contact penalties in 6 matches. I have no problem with well driven tenacious D. I do have a problem with light touch fouls. Since this contact rule is the same as last year, I have a hard time understanding how there are so many penalties this year. Should Arm bots just pack it up?

[waialua359]

You have a pretty good point here.
We got called for that which was our only penalty called on us in Hawaii during the elim quarter finals round. We have two claws that go for the ball.
Clearly, we were trying to get it as the other team played defense (keep away). If they run into our arm, I have no gripes about it as its defense. However, how can we be called for a penalty when they are going into our arm mechanism as we are going for the ball? The same goes for autonomous. :(
Other than that, the refereeing was consistant and we love Jeff as the head ref! :D

[nikeairmancurry]

I can't say to much here, but from my stand point i feel we played a very clean defense through the elimations. One instance that i feel i hurt another robots chances were when i bumped 47 and they got stuck on the rack..sorry for not saying that ealier i just saw some video.. sorry 47 :).

But as a watcher of the matches it seemed like the robots with arms caused alot of those penetlites and probably didn't deserve them. I know both martin teams had issues and so did the hot team where they got 3 of those penentiles in a match.

Now i feel that defenvise was intended in the game, but you need to have a driver who is smart enough to know when to let up and watch the refs as they start counting down and can just drive smart. I can't say i have been perfect ( i have recieved but 4 penentiles this year) but i can say i have been smart in what kind of denesive i needed to do in order to help take that #7 alliance to the finals.

[IKE]

Looking Forward:
I got a little sidetracked and almost forgot the intent of this thread. I would really like to thank the people responsible for the Looking Forward and the Looking Back Predictions/Follow Up. As we go to nationals, I am using this as a highlight real to know who to check out. I am assuming after the divisions are posted there will be a Looking Forward Post for Nationals. Am I correct?

[waialua359]

Looking Forward:
I got a little sidetracked and almost forgot the intent of this thread. I would really like to thank the people responsible for the Looking Forward and the Looking Back Predictions/Follow Up. As we go to nationals, I am using this as a highlight real to know who to check out. I am assuming after the divisions are posted there will be a Looking Forward Post for Nationals. Am I correct?

Not sure if that was going to happen, but that would be cool! Instead of predicting every regional for the week with analysis, an analysis of each division with predicted winners and the ultimate winner on Einstein.

I would love to see an all arm alliance vs an all shooter alliance where the shooters have a slight lead, only for the arm alliance to try and win by placing balls at the end on one end. While on the other end, a full arsenal of offensive bots vs. decent scorer with excellent defensive bots that shutdown the offensive bots type of match. Ohhhhh, the suspense.

[XaulZan11]

I am not sure where people got the idea that this was a "no-defense" game. It is a game with a different kind of defense. In past games, robots often played defense by keeping the opponents away from the target - the Rack, the Tetra goals, etc. In this game, we've been told we can only keep robots away from their "target" of moving around the Track for 6 seconds, and cannot hinder them at all in their pursuit of the "target" of a hurdle. There has been no limitation on keeping robots away from the trackballs.

Quotes from the Q&A which show the GDC has reiterated this:

FIRST Overdrive has never been defined as an "all-offense, no-defense game." Defensive strategies, used appropriately, are perfectly acceptable.
A Robot, and any Trackball in the possession of that Robot, only receives protection from interference while it is in the process of Hurdling (as specified in Rule <G42>). Neither the Robot nor the Trackball receive any special protection at any other time.
There is no rule that would prohibit the blocking robot's action. There are also no rules that would prohibit an appropriate counter measure by your robot. This scenario would likely become a pushing match.


Very good post. I agree that many teams are scared to play defense due to some of these rules or don't think robot to robot defensive interaction is allowed/approved.

There are no rules that say you can't push a team (using bumper to bumper interaction), preventing them from going around the track outside of thier zone. This is one aspect that would be very effective at stopping a hurdler. Instead of trying to hit the bouncing ball away from a hurdler, why not push the hurdler (a much more predictable movement and usually slower and larger than the ball and thus an easier target)? Or once they have the ball, push them against the wall for 5 seconds? I think teams are trying to get too cute with defense and comming up clever 'ball defense' instead of playing effective defense from the past two years, pushing the opponents robot.

[meaubry]

nikeairmancurry,
Hey thanks for opening that wound back up. After the match that we were pushed onto the over pass when you rammed into us, we sent the student out to the ref to ask why there wasn't a penalty assessed. We were told "I didn't see it". Yesterday, while reviewing the video of our last 2 matches at GLR, we were able to confirm that the ref had it right. He was clearly looking into the opposite end of the quadrant when we were hit - apparently, watching the intense goings on between 2 other robots. He couldn't have seen the collision that got us stuck for half the match.

Is it just me, or did the intensity and robot interaction increase significantly during the afternoon on Saturday?

The one thing that bothered me was that it sure seemed like some teams were getting alot of robot to robot interaction penalties. I found that there was alot of inconsistancy from quadrant to quandrant. I truely wish the quadrant refs would rotate around the field, and that stats would be kept for which refs were calling which penalties on which teams.

Here is <G37>
ROBOT to ROBOT Interaction - Strategies aimed solely at the destruction, damage, tipping over, or entanglement of ROBOTS are not in the spirit of the FIRST Robotics Competition and are not allowed. In all cases involving ROBOT-to-ROBOT contact, the TEAM may receive a PENALTY and/or their ROBOT may be disqualified if the interaction is inappropriate or excessive. However, it is noted that FIRST Overdrive is a highly interactive game. Robust construction of ROBOTS will be very important in this high-speed competition. ROBOTS should be designed to withstand the high-speed contact that will occur during the MATCH. Appropriate contact is allowed under the following guidelines:
a. High speed accidental collisions are likely to occur during the MATCH, and are an expected part of the game. However, high-speed intentional ramming is not acceptable and will be penalized.
b. Contact within the BUMPER ZONE is generally acceptable.
c. Contact outside of the BUMPER ZONE is generally not acceptable, and will result in a PENALTY. The offending ROBOT may be disqualified from the MATCH if the offense is particularly egregious or if it results in substantial damage to another ROBOT. However, incidental contact outside of the BUMPER ZONE will not be penalized.

I find this to be very subjective and I believe it explains alot about why certain teams were being flagged more than others. What was incidental in one quadrant wasn't deemed the same in others.

The key word being "incidental" - just exactly how is that defined? When does "incidental" start and "intentional" begin??
Isn't that in and of itself, subjective?

Wouldn't it have been clearer to say, if the interaction results in tipping over or entangling the opponent (I wish I knew what egregious means, sadly I must admit that I can't even seem to pronounce it).

So - I guess playing offense also comes with it's own potential problems.

Anyways - this post is long enough now - hopefully, no one takes offense, or should I say "get's defensive".

Mike

[Rick TYler]

it's much like a basetball team calling a foul on purpose to pause the clock, or a pitcher intentionally hitting the other teams best batter (or walking them on purpose)

Hitting batters with the ball is done for a variety of reasons, but not just "defense." The intentional walk is a better analogy.

This approach -- taking a tactical penalty to further a strategic goal -- is one that I've only seen a couple of times so far. In particular, I saw bot commit an intentional <G22> to knock loose an alliance partner that was jammed up under the overpass. It was the right choice. I'd still like to see someone POSSESS an opponent's trackball for 115 seconds and see what the referees do. As the rules are written, it looks like all they could do is give one 10-point penalty. Six Krispy Kremes (or equivalent) to a team that tries it and lets me know what happens.

[meaubry]

Rick TYler,
Funny you should mention that, because it actually occurred in our 2nd match at GLR.
A robot on the opposing alliance was trying to herd our color ball and the drivers drove into the corner of the field getting stuck in the fence, with one of our balls in their grippers and unable to get themselves free and unable to get rid of our ball.
They were assessed a single 10 point penalty.
Because they had driven into the fence, it was clearly an accident - but there we were, 3 against 2, but - with only one ball to hurdle. Fortunately for us, we won that match, but it could have gone the other way too.
How much do you think the team stuck in the fence should have been penalized? It's a tough call, I'd hate to just keep piling on the penalties - Lord knows, theres already way too many for my liking.

Mike

[Rick TYler]

There are no rules that say you can't push a team (using bumper to bumper interaction), preventing them from going around the track outside of thier zone.

This does run the risk of violating <G38> and <G40>, the IMPEDING rules. <G40> IMPEDING Traffic – ROBOTS shall not intentionally IMPEDE the flow of traffic around the TRACK. During Teleoperated Period, a ROBOT will be considered to be IMPEDING traffic if it is preventing an opposing ROBOT from proceeding around the TRACK. A ROBOT can be found to be IMPEDING traffic if:

the ROBOT is traveling slowly relative to the approaching ROBOT, and moving to prevent the approaching ROBOT from passing, or
the ROBOT is stopped on the TRACK and there is no clear lane of passage for the opposing ROBOT, or
the ROBOT pins an opposing ROBOT against an arena element, border, or another ROBOT


This clause alone would make shoving and blocking illegal: "During Teleoperated Period, a ROBOT will be considered to be IMPEDING traffic if it is preventing an opposing ROBOT from proceeding around the TRACK."

One of the nicest examples I saw of legally slowing other robots down is the same one used in auto racing. By taking the inside line and forcing other robots to the outside, the inside 'bot effectively hampers the progress of another robot without IMPEDING it legally.

[XaulZan11]

This does run the risk of violating <G38> and <G40>, the IMPEDING rules.

This clause alone would make shoving and blocking illegal: "During Teleoperated Period, a ROBOT will be considered to be IMPEDING traffic if it is preventing an opposing ROBOT from proceeding around the TRACK."

One of the nicest examples I saw of legally slowing other robots down is the same one used in auto racing. By taking the inside line and forcing other robots to the outside, the inside 'bot effectively hampers the progress of another robot without IMPEDING it legally.

I disagree. Looking at rule <G40>, it is not impeding if there is a clear 'passing lane' around the robot. Secondly, "the (impeding) ROBOT shall have 6 seconds to move out of the way and create a “passing lane” to allow the opposing ROBOT through." Like last year, a team could pin a robot against the wall for 5 seconds, back up and let them move foward and then pin them again.

[Mike Harrison]

With autonomous playing a dirty game of roulette, chains magically throwing, and wheels coming out of alignment, I have finally decided why we didn't perform so hot on Saturday...

Chester is AWOL! :ahh:

I haven't seen any of the matches, what happened to the beautiful crab drive?

[Mike Harrison]

I'd still like to see someone POSSESS an opponent's trackball for 115 seconds and see what the referees do. As the rules are written, it looks like all they could do is give one 10-point penalty. Six Krispy Kremes (or equivalent) to a team that tries it and lets me know what happens.

I'm all for Krispy Kremes, but I'm not all for causing the GDC to have to create a new update because someone decided to get cute. :(

[waialua359]

As I read the rules in the last few posts and what is allowed/not allowed, it ultimately comes down to what refs call. I will say again, that the best thing to do is talk to the refs on practice day, try and things out and see what's being called/not called as we all play "legally" and with GP.
Personally, I think blocking robots outside the home stretch for robots not hurdling is good defense, when done with bumper-bumper contact. Trapping balls in the corner is good defense because, regardless of boringness, it is allowed and part of the game. We should not let others dictate how it should be played because of personal feelings. Rules are rules. If a team follows them trying to win matches, it falls within the realm of GP.

It was done to us many of times and we accept it because its part of the game, no penalties were called, and the only thing intentional by the opponents is trying to prevent us from getting the ball and/or scoring.

[Rick TYler]

I disagree. Looking at rule <G40>, it is not impeding if there is a clear 'passing lane' around the robot. Secondly, "the (impeding) ROBOT shall have 6 seconds to move out of the way and create a “passing lane” to allow the opposing ROBOT through." Like last year, a team could pin a robot against the wall for 5 seconds, back up and let them move foward and then pin them again.

It's not 2006 or 2007 -- you can't keep pinning. The whole text of <G41>:

<G41> Permitting To Pass - When a ROBOT has received a signal to pass (see Rule <G38>), or when the REFEREE signals that a ROBOT is pinning an opponent in place, the ROBOT shall have 6 seconds to move out of the way and create a “passing lane” to allow the opposing ROBOT through. ROBOTS that fail to do so within 6 seconds after the “signal to pass” shall receive a PENALTY. Repeated infractions will result in a YELLOW CARD being issued to the ROBOT.

You can only attempt repeated pinning as a defensive strategy if you are willing to risk being disqualified.

[BornaE]

Looking Forward:
Is there a list of top 25 teams that you can compile yet?
It would be great if you can get that out.

[DanTod97]

When 20 and 40 paired up in Boston, it was all over. Only once in qualifications was 100 broken (and Trinity was involved), but this alliance did it five times in seven elimination matches. Their sole loss involved 40 getting hung up for nearly half the match and some nice defense by 97, and was by a mere 2 points.

but it was such a sweet, sweet 2 points

and team 40 got hung up because of the defense by the way - unintentional though

[Looking Forward]

Yes, there will be Championship predictions of some form. The exact format and release time is yet to be determined.

Looking Forward:
Is there a list of top 25 teams that you can compile yet?
It would be great if you can get that out.

A Top 25 list in the works. Not sure when you can expect it, but it won't be until after the New York City regional.

[XaulZan11]

You can only attempt repeated pinning as a defensive strategy if you are willing to risk being disqualified.


Maybe I'm missing something or reading it the wrong way, but why can't you pin someone for 5 seconds, stop pinning and let them move foward (like to the next quadrent) then pin them there for 5 seconds, let them move foward and so on?

edit: does the 'repeat infractions' mean getting the penality or just pinning? I believe 'repeat infractions' means getting more than one penalties.