View Full Version : Galileo Division 2008
I'll be very curious to see how team 8 plans to play defense against 1114. Team 8, a premier defensive team, must be planning something. They have two awesome partners in 254 and 469! The other alliance is stacked too.
This is a must see match indeed.
I actually think that the Poofs will take this match in a very close (and high scoring) one. I think that it will come down to the superior defensive squad, which in this one is 254, 8, 469.
rsilverstein
18-04-2008, 12:54
1114 is playing poofs, I think that will decide Galileo (and the championship?)
Poofs already took a loss.
1114 has a (relatively) weak schedule.... I'm sure there will be more than one undefeated team with a higher RS than them.
330 plays 217 tomorrow in both of their last matches and I'm sure they'll both be undefeated at that point.
1075 did this at GTR on Saturday in 48's absence (we missed you guys!) and I think it was really good. The problem is that people don't pay attention and then someone accidentally runs over their toes or something... how is startling you to awareness unsafe?
There isn't an actual need for anyone except those in your way (read: people within 1-2ft of the front and sides of your cart) to actually be aware that your robot is coming through. Shouting is overkill, because there are large numbers of people in earshot who are probably trying to concentrate on sawing/drilling/programming/scouting/strategy. Particularly for those people engaged in tasks that may be dangerous if they don't pay full attention to the task at hand, it can negatively impact safety. Most teams I've been on have managed to just politely tap people on the shoulder or say "excuse me" to get through the pits. If everyone did safety wardens, then the pits would have a constant flow of people shouting "robot coming through", resulting in nobody being sure where the robots were and leaving everyone cowering in fear.
Good intentions, poor implementation.
Improved idea: use an old robot controller, a braking mechanism, and sensors to detect when you're about to run over someone's toe. Apply the brakes or simply make the person moving the cart aware with a flashing light or noticeable (but not obnoxious) noise. A simple example would be to hook an old RC to old motors on each wheel. If a toe-like obstruction is detected, switch the victors from coast to brake. It would allow the cart to get over obstacles, but would make the cart driver aware through increased resistance.
JamesBrown
18-04-2008, 13:22
Galileo has THE best play-by-play announcer.
Has it been Andy all day?
Has it been Andy all day?Nah. Sir Charles was up for a while pre-lunch.
I'm not exactly sure I like Sir Charles's style. Might just be me, though. He can sure wake up a crowd, but the enthusiasm can wane when you're overexposed to it. I think Grady does a better job overall.
Nah. Sir Charles was up for a while pre-lunch.
I'm not exactly sure I like Sir Charles's style. Might just be me, though. He can sure wake up a crowd, but the enthusiasm can wane when you're overexposed to it. I think Grady does a better job overall.
agreed, I have to say, that charles is alright for a little bit, but hes repeatative talking gets on my nerves after a while, but these matches are intense!! so I don't really care lol
Also, does anyone think 48's safety escorts is a horrible idea? They are annoying and more importantly distracting. I heard someone else say this idea, which I thought was a great point. With them walking behind and screaming robot coming through at the top of their lungs, isn't that more distracting then just having the team just walk by with their arms up saying excuse me. When I hear someone scream behind me, I get startled stop what Im doing and look. It's far less safe
I'm not saying it isn't annoying but it seems the UL safety judges obviously promote it, we have won the UL Industrial Safety award eight times in the last twelve regionals we have attended, including all three of our regionals this year.:D
Michael Corsetto
18-04-2008, 18:13
Wow, tomorrow morning is gonna make things very interesting.
176, 1114 and 330 are the only 3 undefeated teams (1983 has a tie), with 1114 and 330 tied only .4 RS points behind 176. 176 has much tougher matches tomorrow, being paired against teams such as 254, 121 and 384, and not being with any powerhouse teams besides 148, so they could very well end up 6-1 or 5-2 by lunch tomorrow. The real question is can either 330 or 1114 stay undefeated through their last two matches tomorrow to guarantee one picking the other? The match everyone is talking about with 1114 vs 254 is stacked against Simbotics, but with their high scoring and reliable auto mode they might be able to pull of a win, and their other match should be just like their first 5 have been. My guess is 330 will be the only undefeated team left by the time selections come around, although their last match is vs 217, which could stop their undefeated streak as well. It's gonna be an interesting morning tomorrow, which I will be waking up at 5:45 am pacific time to watch :p
330 plays 217 tomorrow in both of their last matches and I'm sure they'll both be undefeated at that point.Sorry, Ross. 217 played 70, 115, and 195 and lost, then 234, 1390, and 254. Not undefeated now... 330, yes, until further notice. (Like that match tomorrow.)
By the way, from the match schedules thread, here are the predicted seeding numbers:
Galileo:
Team Wins
217 7
1114 7
103 6
121 6
330 6
1816 6
2046 6
2062 6
40 5
65 5
70 5
254 5
291 5
343 5
469 5
1089 5
1540 5
1629 5
1717 5
2165 5
2340 5
2549 5
25 4
176 4
180 4
195 4
234 4
302 4
316 4
364 4
384 4
425 4
494 4
812 4
932 4
1023 4
1138 4
1366 4
1983 4
2023 4
2354 4
2437 4
2468 4
2599 4
8 3
48 3
88 3
115 3
148 3
597 3
716 3
839 3
894 3
980 3
1296 3
1319 3
1390 3
1450 3
1676 3
1885 3
2237 3
2638 3
84 2
226 2
399 2
509 2
612 2
694 2
1038 2
1212 2
1254 2
1503 2
1523 2
1595 2
1739 2
1758 2
2423 2
2487 2
2564 2
134 1
168 1
457 1
548 1
2621 1
1576 0
Looks like Tom will want to run his numbers again. 176, 1114, and 330 are currently undefeated, and 217 has two losses.
galewind
18-04-2008, 18:43
Galileo has THE best play-by-play announcer.
Andy Grady is the man. I got to cover for him in CT and had a great time. He was Emcee in CT last year too and did a great job.
And yesterday was his birthday :)
galewind
18-04-2008, 18:52
Hey wow, that algorithm is almost spot on so far for us. We ended up in 13th (predicted 16th), and we the one match we lost, we pretty much knew it from the getgo (against 330, 494, and 1138, and I have to say I thought our alliance put up a hell of a fight, though, us getting our D on and 694 hurdling like they did in NYC). We have a relatively easy schedule being that we only have to face a few of the rediculous powerhouses that I know this division has. I'm dropping my jaw seeing some of these teams play.
we were just excited that our hybrid's in full-working order now.
AdamHeard
18-04-2008, 18:55
It's interesting that 254 & 1114 are similar and 217 & 330 are similar and they each face each other in a match.
Personally, I'd like to see 1114 and 330 seed 1st and 2nd (either order) and each would pick one of 254/217. After that, hopefully they meet in division finals for some intense matches :D
It's interesting that 254 & 1114 are similar and 217 & 330 are similar and they each face each other in a match.
Personally, I'd like to see 1114 and 330 seed 1st and 2nd (either order) and each would pick one of 254/217. After that, hopefully they meet in division finals for some intense matches :D
yeah 1114 and 217 vs 330 and 254 would be awesome lol. one of each type face off against eachother. One of them will be in first by the time this is over!!
Guy Davidson
18-04-2008, 22:07
I'll be very curious to see how team 8 plans to play defense against 1114. Team 8, a premier defensive team, must be planning something.
We just finished our nightly meeting. Don't worry, we have a plan. :cool:
No, whether or not it will work, that's another question. Knowing 1114, probably not :P However, we'll give it a shot.
Alex_2487
18-04-2008, 22:29
Sorry, Ross. 217 played 70, 115, and 195 and lost, then 234, 1390, and 254. Not undefeated now... 330, yes, until further notice. (Like that match tomorrow.)
By the way, from the match schedules thread, here are the predicted seeding numbers:
Looks like Tom will want to run his numbers again. 176, 1114, and 330 are currently undefeated, and 217 has two losses.
also, we were ranked 77th on the predictions and we only have 1 loss and we are in 9th place
FoleyEngineer
18-04-2008, 22:54
There's a very slim but statistically possible way that this whole division could fall apart. Imagine this...
176 (now undefeated), loses their one match against poofs but finishes 6 and 1.
330 loses to 217 (and also end up 6 and 1)
1114 loses to 254/469 (and also end up 6 and 1) !!!
Now it's all up to qualifying points. 176 is *already* ahead by a touch. Just imagine that they stay #1. Now...
176 asks 1114 who refuses, then asks 330 and 254 who refuse, then asks 217 who has to accept. There's your first power team out. Since 1114, 330 and 254 all refused, they can't ask each other and therefore can't team up. Ouch!
Mind you, I *REALLY* don't want this to happen. I happen to have some good friends on those 4 teams above but just looking at the numbers, wouldn't that be an insane outcome?
65_Xero_Huskie
18-04-2008, 22:55
1114, 65, 234 v. 254, 469,8
Looks to be the blockbuster.
Everyone is saying that 1114 v. 254 is what to watch, BUT, 469 is in there aswell, and id have to give them credit for 4-5 atleast.
I sense a high combined score here :)
160-150? *Edit* I would like to change this to 120-110* :)
may the best alliance win.
1114, 65, 234 v. 254, 469,8
Looks to be the blockbuster.
Everyone is saying that 1114 v. 254 is what to watch, BUT, 469 is in there aswell, and id have to give them credit for 4-5 atleast.
I sense a high combined score here :)
160-150?
may the best alliance win.Don't count 234 out either. Despite their record, they have a pretty decent machine. I'm with you on the high score, but I don't quite think it'll be that high.
waialua359
18-04-2008, 23:51
I think the key is not counting out team 8. If they cant strategize and beat them successfully (1114) i.e. slow them down, trap the ball, etc. then who can? Slowing down 1114 will be significant if it can be done since the other alliance can score at will also.
To the other comment about the scenario that could break up the alliance, how ironic is it that Aces High are in the mix again similar to that of Newton 2006!
If 330 wins out, the alliance will be set with 1114 and 330. 330 picking 1114 as a #1 pick is a guarantee and 1114 accepting should be a guarantee. Accepting means its a guaranteed strong alliance versus them declining and taking whoever 330 doesn't take.
With all of the hype this year about 1114, I had to see them for myself in a match. They are the team 25 of 2006 and I am a believer now!
My last scenario would be the most interesting. What if 1114 ends up at #1 and takes 254? That would be such a strong alliance that if they should win the championship title, they would both be the two most strongest teams to have finally won a title!:D
65_Xero_Huskie
19-04-2008, 00:21
I think the key is not counting out team 8. If they cant strategize and beat them successfully (1114) i.e. slow them down, trap the ball, etc. then who can? Slowing down 1114 will be significant if it can be done since the other alliance can score at will also.
To the other comment about the scenario that could break up the alliance, how ironic is it that Aces High are in the mix again similar to that of Newton 2006!
If 330 wins out, the alliance will be set with 1114 and 330. 330 picking 1114 as a #1 pick is a guarantee and 1114 accepting should be a guarantee. Accepting means its a guaranteed strong alliance versus them declining and taking whoever 330 doesn't take.
With all of the hype this year about 1114, I had to see them for myself in a match. They are the team 25 of 2006 and I am a believer now!
My last scenario would be the most interesting. What if 1114 ends up at #1 and takes 254? That would be such a strong alliance that if they should win the championship title, they would both be the two most strongest teams to have finally won a title!:D
U have 1114 picking 254? Hm, i got that as an option, I think they would pick differently though.
rsilverstein
19-04-2008, 02:50
My last scenario would be the most interesting. What if 1114 ends up at #1 and takes 254? That would be such a strong alliance that if they should win the championship title, they would both be the two most strongest teams to have finally won a title!:D
If 1114 ends up at #1 then that means they would have beaten 254 in their match against each other. Causing 254 will have at least 2 losses, putting them low in the rankings. If 1114 picked 254, then that would give 330 (high in the rankings... maybe even #2 seed) the opportunity to pick another strong team (217, 25, 494) which would also make a strong alliance.
If 1114 picks 330, however, than the 2nd alliance would probably be captained by a weaker team, leaving them to break up the other powerhouses, leading to an almost sure win for 1114/330.
In other words, they would be better off picking the higher seeded team (even if people believe that 254 is better than 330... which, in itself, I think I would have to disagree with)
254 can shoot, now doubt about it. 330 can hurdle and has precise control at the end game. 330 has the intangible, however: experience.
No matter how the alliances shakeout, gonna be very fast with lots of scoring.
Could it come down to defense?
The 1114-254 match is over...72-46, 1114 wins. 254 was stuck under the center Lexan all match. 8 was defending pretty well... First time in a while that 1114 hasn't scored 100+.
The 1114-254 match is over...72-46, 1114 wins. 254 was stuck under the center Lexan all match. 8 was defending pretty well... First time in a while that 1114 hasn't scored 100+.
They failed to score 100 in their 2nd match (barely), but 72 is certainly much farther from 100 than they're used to. So it appears it is indeed possible to play strong defense against them, even with a dead robot. Though if 254 wasn't stuck against the divider, 1114 might have had an easier time getting around 8, and thus scored more.
Michael Corsetto
19-04-2008, 10:00
330 lost a drive motor or something because they were out of commission for all of their 6th match past hybrid mode. I hope they can get it fixed.
Looks like 1114 is going to end qualifiers undefeated. I'm going to go out and say that 1114 doesn't pick 254 or 330, but instead 217. I think out of these three teams 217 will perform the best under both high pressure and high defense. I know 330 has excellent drivers, but I think 330's overall robot design lends itself to be easier to defend. And although 254 has a powerhouse robot as well, they lack the driver experience and ability to play with heavy defense in order to be effective on Einstein.
330 lost a drive motor or something because they were out of commission for all of their 6th match past hybrid mode. I hope they can get it fixed.
Looks like 1114 is going to end qualifiers undefeated. I'm going to go out and say that 1114 doesn't pick 254 or 330, but instead 217. I think out of these three teams 217 will perform the best under both high pressure and high defense. I know 330 has excellent drivers, but I think 330's overall robot design lends itself to be easier to defend. And although 254 has a powerhouse robot as well, they lack the driver experience and ability to play with heavy defense in order to be effective on Einstein.
Our contact said it was a thrown drive chain, the first I can remember having gotten during a match this year. I can't imagine they won't have it ready to go for the next match.
Personally, I can't wait for our next match (against the Thunderchickens). It should be a great competition (not to mention it could determine whether we seed in the top 8 ;)).
Our contact said it was a thrown drive chain, the first I can remember having gotten during a match this year. I can't imagine they won't have it ready to go for the next match.
Personally, I can't wait for our next match (against the Thunderchickens). It should be a great competition (not to mention it could determine whether we seed in the top 8 ;)).Only one? I can only think of one that would virtually immobilize a full side of the drive.
I also suspected something of the sort.
Mike Ross
19-04-2008, 12:05
1114 (#1 seed) just picked 217.
Good luck everybody. Let the fun begin...
1 1114 217 148
2 1717 254 384
3 2340 1450 612
4 195 330 40
5 1983 469 2046
6 1089 103 1503
7 494 25 88
8 176 121 8
Vikesrock
19-04-2008, 12:13
1114-217-148
1717-254-384
2340-1450-612
195-330-40
1983-469-2046
1089-103-1503
494-25-88
176-121-8
Jonathan Norris
19-04-2008, 12:14
wow so the 'dream' alliance of 1114, 217, 148 happened... lets see how they do
#2, #4, #6 all look really good
Tottanka
19-04-2008, 12:14
wow!
1114,217 and 148!
what an alliance!
How could 148 go unnoticed 'till the last pick?
Scout, people, scout...
Can we call them 2008 World Champions already? :p
Tim Delles
19-04-2008, 12:18
1114-217-148
1717-254-384
2340-1450-612
195-330-40
1983-469-2046
1089-103-1503
494-25-88
176-121-8
Quarter Finals
#1 def. #8
#2 def. #7 (this could be the other way around though. its tight)
#6 def #3
#4 beats #5
Semi Finals
#1 def #4
#6 def #2
Finals
#1 def #6
And Simbots make it to Einstein for the first time.
GBilletdeaux930
19-04-2008, 12:19
How could 148 go unnoticed 'till the last pick?
Scout, people, scout...
Can we call them 2008 World Champions already? :p
I was thinking the same thing... wow this is gonna be... nice
Tottanka
19-04-2008, 12:24
1. 1114-217-148
2. 1717-254-384
3. 2340-1450-612
4. 195-330-40
5. 1983-469-2046
6. 1089-103-1503
7. 494-25-88
8. 176-121-8
Quarter Finals
#1 > #8
#2 > #7
#6 > #3
#4 > #5
Semi Finals
#1 > #4
#6 < #2
Finals
#1 > #2
XaulZan11
19-04-2008, 12:34
How could 148 go unnoticed 'till the last pick?
Scout, people, scout...
Can we call them 2008 World Champions already? :p
I think people did scout did scout them very closely after everyone here talked them up so much. I think people saw that they are probably overrated. Personally, I would have taken 70 instead. Still a super strong alliance. Should be very exciting!
JamesBrown
19-04-2008, 12:36
How could 148 go unnoticed 'till the last pick?
Scout, people, scout...
Can we call them 2008 World Champions already? :p
148 has had issues all weekend, they haven't looked as good as in the past
Tim Delles
19-04-2008, 14:25
1114 and 217 opt to go 2 on 3 while 148 tries to fix their robot! hrmmmm i still think they can do it
s_forbes
19-04-2008, 14:29
1114 and 217 opt to go 2 on 3 while 148 tries to fix their robot! hrmmmm i still think they can do it
Weird results: 217 broke, didn't hurdle. 1114 got tipped.
Tim Delles
19-04-2008, 14:34
Weird results: 217 broke, didn't hurdle. 1114 got tipped.
yeah. watching it looked like they got tipped on purpose, but that is just from what i saw.
could 1114's unlucky semi final past come back to haunt them again?
It looked to me like 217's surgical tubing on there arm broke, so they should be back in action fairly quickly.
Not sure about 1114, or 148. Any word on what's wrong with their robot?
330, 195, and 40 have certantly been giving them a run for their money though.
Tim Delles
19-04-2008, 14:41
WOW the penalties!!!!
and 1114 217 and 148 survive
yeah. watching it looked like they got tipped on purpose, but that is just from what i saw.
could 1114's unlucky semi final past come back to haunt them again?
unlucky, or unfair??
outside bumper contact to start the tip, then drive under them??
EDIT: holy penalties..... glad everything got called right!!
JamesBrown
19-04-2008, 14:42
score has been posted on the FIRST website as red: 0 blue :118
Simbotics 7th lost of the season
Don't know where that came from, 1114 and co. win due to penalties and a team 40 red card.
The red card was for "Intentional tipping with the team cheering"
Wow that was a weird match; 3vs.2 and Simbotics tips.
A grand total of 11 penalties between the alliances in that last match. I believe that the match was also decided by a DQ for intentional tipping, but correct me if I'm wrong. It is an unfortunate way to lose a match.
Don't know where that came from, 1114 and co. win due to penalties and a team 40 red card.
The red card was for "Intentional tipping with the team cheering"Team cheering... Not covered in the rules.
Tipping--Minimun 10-points, max DQ
Wow that was a weird match; 3vs.2 and Simbotics tips.
A grand total of 11 penalties between the alliances in that last match. I believe that the match was also decided by a DQ for intentional tipping, but correct me if I'm wrong. It is an unfortunate way to lose a match.Wouldn't have made a difference with penalties.
JamesBrown
19-04-2008, 14:46
Team cheering... Not covered in the rules.
Tipping--Minimun 10-points, max DQ
the quote is from Andy, as announced on the field
the quote is from Andy, as announced on the fieldI'm just pointing out that the team cheering isn't covered by the rules.
The tipping I understand.
That had to be the strangest match I have ever seen. a bunch of penalties and a tipped robot. Wow!
I suspect Galileo SF1.2 will be talked about for quite some time.
It seems to me that the red card was a little extreme, since the refs made it sound as though it was because of the team cheering. While un-GP it shouldn't be a deciding factor, as I'm fairly certain many people would cheer if their main opponent was unable to continue scoring, the fact that it was intentionally wouldn't factor in to most people in the stands.
7 more penalties on that last match, 5 being on the red alliance forcing a 3rd semi-final match. Wow!
I said this before and I'll say it again, these close matches will be decided by penalties. The alliance that is the best at avoiding them will win it all.
I said this before and I'll say it again, these close matches will be decided by penalties. The alliance that is the best at avoiding them will win it all.
I agree. Galileo seems to e especially penalty-laden
However, hopefully, by the einstien finals, this will result in penalty free, close matches.
I suspect Galileo SF1.2 will be talked about for quite some time.
It seems to me that the red card was a little extreme, since the refs made it sound as though it was because of the team cheering. While un-GP it shouldn't be a deciding factor, as I'm fairly certain many people would cheer if their main opponent was unable to continue scoring, the fact that it was intentionally wouldn't factor in to most people in the stands.
The factors I see towards a red card:
-40's drivers had a clear view of what they were doing
-1114 is built so low, it needs to be pushed FAR to tip
-there wasn't really any other traffic around (in my memory anyway, i'll have to re-watch on TBA).
-the team cheering could have soured the refs mood
Tim Delles
19-04-2008, 14:54
I suspect Galileo SF1.2 will be talked about for quite some time.
It seems to me that the red card was a little extreme, since the refs made it sound as though it was because of the team cheering. While un-GP it shouldn't be a deciding factor, as I'm fairly certain many people would cheer if their main opponent was unable to continue scoring, the fact that it was intentionally wouldn't factor in to most people in the stands.
also the Blue alliance had so many penalties it would not have changed the outcome (only the score).
The refs could possibly have given a red card to this team to warn everyone (not just the competitors on that field but everyone left playing) that they will not allow a lot of contact to go on.
also the Blue alliance had so many penalties it would not have changed the outcome (only the score).
The refs could possibly have given a red card to this team to warn everyone (not just the competitors on that field but everyone left playing) that they will not allow a lot of contact to go on.
In the event that any TEAM members in the arena are uncivil towards
competition personnel or other TEAMS, the TEAM may be disqualified from the MATCH.
Please see T05, T07, T09, and G52.
I guess my memory is different from Bongle's. I seem to remember there being at least 3 robots in the immediate area, with team 40 moving away from the driver station. In other words, I didn't get impression that the drivers had a clear view of what was going on. But obviously the red alliance would have won even without the red card being issued, so that's not really an issue.
What I'm confused about is exactly how the team cheering affected the red card. Obviously this is just my impression, but it almost seems to me that the referees used team 40 cheering as evidence that they had tipped 1114 intentionally. So if the drive team had instead appeared sober and apologetic, would they still have issued the red card? Do the referees really expect to be able to control the emotions of excitable high school students caught up in the moment?
To be clear, I don't want to sound like a sore loser. The 1114/217/148 alliance was clearly in control of the match. The blue alliance likely wouldn't have even been in a position to win in the first place had 217 and 148 been fully operational. But I would really like to understand the rationale behind this red card.
EDIT: I just read G52 as Dan said, so I can see they had legal reason to issue the red card. I guess that's all that needs to be said.
Please see T05, T07, T09, and G52.
I didn't know about G52.. now it makes more sense as to why the cheering part was important.. although I thought red card as it was right in front of the blue alliance station, and although at first it didn't look intentional (40 hit 1114 with the trackball in there gripper), but it seemed to me it went from an accident to "there tipping!! help it out!" (this may not be the case, just so people don't yell at me :yikes: this just seems like it to me)
At the same note 90 minus point decided it anyways.. so it didn't really matter
These are some intense matches!!!
Tim Delles
19-04-2008, 15:40
congrats to 1114 217 and 148!
I know that I would fear any alliance that had Karthik, Paul and John teamed together.
Just announced by Andy, Galileo will be playing Newton on Einstein
rsilverstein
19-04-2008, 15:51
Great division. There were so many quality, close matches (and controversial ones too).
Congrats to all teams, especially the winners!
I guess my memory is different from Bongle's. I seem to remember there being at least 3 robots in the immediate area, with team 40 moving away from the driver station. In other words, I didn't get impression that the drivers had a clear view of what was going on. But obviously the red alliance would have won even without the red card being issued, so that's not really an issue.
My memory is certainly fuzzy. I remember there being a big traffic jam at that end, then it kind of clearing*, then 40 hitting 1114 as they also cleared out. So I'm not entirely sure, those were just my raw thoughts soon after it occurred.
*this may not have happened. It is possible I was focusing so much on 40 and 1114 the other robots got blanked out.
I do know that the webcast caught it (as well as the early-game 1114 ram) very clearly, so once it gets posted on TBA or SOAP we'll have clarity.
In other news, congrats to 1114 for a well-deserved championship.
jayjaywalker3
20-04-2008, 09:45
How could 148 go unnoticed 'till the last pick?
Scout, people, scout...
Can we call them 2008 World Champions already? :p
I dont understand why 148 is a good pick. All I saw was 148 picking up penalties in qualifications and then picking up penalties in the eliminations. I will look at their videos from other regionals though.
EDIT
So after watching finals and semifinals from St Louis I see them having a crazy hybrid and making many many laps but at champs I saw them going backwards over two lines in hybrid (although i thought it looked like it was on purpose) and picking up other penalties with poor driving.
Team 148's robot is one crazy defensive robot. And I mean that in a good way.
Travis Hoffman
20-04-2008, 13:08
They failed to score 100 in their 2nd match (barely), but 72 is certainly much farther from 100 than they're used to. So it appears it is indeed possible to play strong defense against them, even with a dead robot. Though if 254 wasn't stuck against the divider, 1114 might have had an easier time getting around 8, and thus scored more.
8 spent a decent amount of time during this match trying to poke 254 out of its predicament.
I think a lot of the scoring depression was indeed a result of the traffic jam created by 254's unfortunate situation.
Quite a blah sequence of events considering all the hype leading into the match.
XaulZan11
20-04-2008, 13:14
[QUOTE=jayjaywalker3;739345]I dont understand why 148 is a good pick. All I saw was 148 picking up penalties in qualifications and then picking up penalties in the eliminations. I will look at their videos from other regionals though.
QUOTE]
When they picked 148, I was thinking the same thing. While I still think they should have taken 70 just to have a backup hurdler, which they could have used a few times as both 1114 and 217 tipped in matches, 148 played great defense. They don't play dominate defense by pushing opponents, but by just getting in the way and pushing balls around. I saw countless times they get inside someone's gripper and push the ball around. 148 was certainly a good pick.
Vikesrock
20-04-2008, 15:41
[QUOTE=jayjaywalker3;739345]I dont understand why 148 is a good pick. All I saw was 148 picking up penalties in qualifications and then picking up penalties in the eliminations. I will look at their videos from other regionals though.
QUOTE]
When they picked 148, I was thinking the same thing. While I still think they should have taken 70 just to have a backup hurdler, which they could have used a few times as both 1114 and 217 tipped in matches, 148 played great defense. They don't play dominate defense by pushing opponents, but by just getting in the way and pushing balls around. I saw countless times they get inside someone's gripper and push the ball around. 148 was certainly a good pick.
Also with the penalties flying the way they did during Galileo elims, there is a lot less risk for 148 to get a G37 (read: almost none) than 70 getting one.
ErikaE1717
20-04-2008, 19:20
I just wanted to thank all of the teams for their energy and passion throughout the three days! Team 1717 (D'Penguineers) has a rookie team every year of 32 seniors so we didn't know what to expect in Atlanta and though the regionals were phenomenal, the World Championship was such an eye opener into the spirit of the entire FIRST community. It was amazing to see how far people traveled to compete, and the sense of camaraderie was not only inspiring for the world of science, but it was also refreshing to know so many people share my dream to better the world in every way we can.
For those continuing on next year, keep up the innovative ideas and hard work! Keep FIRST alive and thriving!
Thanks again :)
sayso_411
20-04-2008, 19:46
Thank You Teams 1717 and 254 for picking us and I am really happy that all of us were in the Galileo Finals!!! :D
Team 384 had been an offensive bot all year, we found that we can defend as well :)
Thank You again 1717 and 254
galewind
20-04-2008, 22:11
Someone had asked why 148 hadn't been picked until last. Not to offend 148, but there are some clear reasons why. From our scouting meeting Friday night, we knew that if we were going to be in a position to pick, that we'd need two good hurdlers, because we know we're not that good at it. We figured that since we can play decent keep-away (and legally), the only way we'd do as well as to get two good hurdlers. When some kids complimented 148 at our meeting, other people made it clear that they cannot be one of our picks because we need better hurdlers, and we would be that defensive bot if we could get the hurdlers. Fortunately we did in 103 and 1503, and we had a great run with them!
That being said, I think 148 wasn't picked until the end due to some alliances needing good hurdlers (the amazing hurdling teams weren't all in the top 8), and possibly some inexperienced scouts on other teams. I had a really strong feeling that 1114 and 217 were going to pick them once it came back to their second selection. 148 was a great pick to complement their style, and I had really high hopes for Galileo once they picked them, because I truly believe that almost everyone in that arena knew what the outcome of our elimination brackets was going to be before QF1-1 even started.
jayjaywalker3
21-04-2008, 00:22
That being said, I think 148 wasn't picked until the end due to some alliances needing good hurdlers (the amazing hurdling teams weren't all in the top 8), and possibly some inexperienced scouts on other teams. .
That 3rd Alliance was painful for everyone on my team.
65_Xero_Huskie
21-04-2008, 02:08
Someone had asked why 148 hadn't been picked until last. Not to offend 148, but there are some clear reasons why. From our scouting meeting Friday night, we knew that if we were going to be in a position to pick, that we'd need two good hurdlers, because we know we're not that good at it. We figured that since we can play decent keep-away (and legally), the only way we'd do as well as to get two good hurdlers. When some kids complimented 148 at our meeting, other people made it clear that they cannot be one of our picks because we need better hurdlers, and we would be that defensive bot if we could get the hurdlers. Fortunately we did in 103 and 1503, and we had a great run with them!
I think this is why the alliance selection was so strange in my eyes.
It looked like every alliance was looking for firepower. They knew if they were gonna go up against 1114/217 they needed to try to get firepower.
BoyWithCape195
21-04-2008, 08:45
In terms of the match with the 40 DQ. They actually took all the points scored by 40 in that match off the board completely. Had there have been no DQ, the 195,330,40 alliance would have won and brought it to a third match.
In terms of the match with the 40 DQ. They actually took all the points scored by 40 in that match off the board completely. Had there have been no DQ, the 195,330,40 alliance would have won and brought it to a third match.
This is incorrect. The final score before the DQ, but after all penalty points were assessed was 50-48 for the 1114, 217, 148 alliance.
Tom Bottiglieri
21-04-2008, 13:15
Great time on Galileo. We recorded every point scored by every team and these were the results:
Team Avg Contribution
1114 87.2
195 56.4
469 56.3
25 54
121 49.2
254 49.2
330 49
103 47.6
217 46.8
40 39.6
1319 39.6
494 39.2
694 39.2
1503 38.4
2062 38.4
291 37.2
1676 37.2
234 36.8
70 33.2
1717 32.8
88 31
384 30.4
176 29.6
343 29.2
1089 29.2
1629 28.8
716 26
612 25.2
316 24.8
1983 24.5
1758 24
548 23.6
1138 23.6
364 23.2
2487 22.8
1816 22
2046 22
65 20.8
180 19.6
1038 19.6
1212 19.2
2237 18.5
1540 17.6
2437 17.2
48 16.8
115 16.8
894 16.8
1885 16.8
597 16.4
932 16.4
1450 16
2549 16
2354 15.6
2621 15.5
1023 15.2
2165 15.2
2340 14.8
2568 14.4
1523 14
8 13.6
1390 13.6
84 13.2
2423 13.2
2599 13
399 12.8
457 12.8
1296 12.8
839 12.4
980 11.6
2468 11.5
148 11.2
1739 10.8
1880 10.8
302 10.4
425 10
812 9.6
2638 9
134 8.8
1595 8.8
509 7.2
1254 6.8
2023 5.2
168 3.2
226 3.2
1366 3
1576 2.4
(We may have missed a line or two here or there, so ours may not agree 100% with every other teams scouting data. But its close enough.)
EDIT: These are for Friday's matches only.
BoyWithCape195
21-04-2008, 16:26
This is incorrect. The final score before the DQ, but after all penalty points were assessed was 50-48 for the 1114, 217, 148 alliance.
Yes, I am not disagreeing with you on that. The score, pre penalties, was altered though. With the DQ, they removed all the points that 40 had scored during that match. The 48 points was the amount scored by 195 and 330 only.
[QUOTE=Tom Bottiglieri;740213]Great time on Galileo. We recorded every point scored by every team and these were the results:
[code]
Team Avg Contribution
1114 87.2
195 56.4
469 56.3
25 54
121 49.2 254 49.2
330 49
103 47.6
217 46.8
40 39.6 1319 39.6
Being in the top 10 in avg contributiuon scores and not getting picked; shocked 1319 to some extent. This was our fifth year and we were aware that it could occur because anything can happen at these things. Does anyone have any suggegestions as to how we can prevent this from happening again.
Yes, I am not disagreeing with you on that. The score, pre penalties, was altered though. With the DQ, they removed all the points that 40 had scored during that match. The 48 points was the amount scored by 195 and 330 only.
No, the only points removed were for the penalties. The score was not altered in anyway. Nowhere in the rules does it call for the removal of points scored by the DQed team. Also, there is no way for the refs to track the individual points scored by a robot, aside from their laps. The scoring system credits all hurdles, herds and deperches to the alliance not the robot.
CzarValvador
21-04-2008, 22:16
Average contribution doesn't exactly correlate to how you will be picked for a team. Some Robots work better with others. Some features compliment other features. It's all about how people scout out different mechanics and matches.
Besides, if you played in 7 defensively absent matches, you could have easily raised your "Average Contribution" above that of 1114's if they have played in very defense heavy matches. This is why we have scouts... if everything would have been decided by Average Contributions, Scouting would be a job for one person on the team who just pulls information off of some database.
Anyway, Congratulations 1114, 217, and 148. Great defense, great offense, and I must say I honor your dedication to your team, playing 2 vs 3 without replacing 148, and letting them have some time to repair their bot. Congratulations! It was an honor to play against you guys.
Thanks to 254 and 384 for playing on our alliance.
jasper.s.jacobs
21-04-2008, 22:31
[QUOTE=Tom Bottiglieri;740213]Great time on Galileo. We recorded every point scored by every team and these were the results:
[code]
Team Avg Contribution
1114 87.2
195 56.4
469 56.3
25 54
121 49.2 254 49.2
330 49
103 47.6
217 46.8
40 39.6 1319 39.6
Being in the top 10 in avg contributiuon scores and not getting picked; shocked 1319 to some extent. This was our fifth year and we were aware that it could occur because anything can happen at these things. Does anyone have any suggegestions as to how we can prevent this from happening again.
many teams in the top 8 alliances were nowhere close to the top avg score contributors. average score is bs... so is the ranking score which promotes lack of competition by giving more to points to teams who beat teams by less. A good team can choose not to play defense to let their opponents score more so that they can achieve a higher ranking
Yes, I am not disagreeing with you on that. The score, pre penalties, was altered though. With the DQ, they removed all the points that 40 had scored during that match. The 48 points was the amount scored by 195 and 330 only.
Something similar happened to us during a quarter final match in LA. We were disqualified for lifting the overpass off the ground some four-six inches. Apparently this caused some cables to be yanked as well. They tried to e-stop us somehow us but it failed. What they did do was deduct all points we scored after the point of disqualification and this contributed to our alliance loosing the match.
I wonder, then, if this was really the case with Team 40 and the DQ was so early in the match it caused all points to be deducted because they had not scored yet?
[QUOTE=Zflash;740428]
many teams in the top 8 alliances were nowhere close to the top avg score contributors. average score is bs... so is the ranking score which promotes lack of competition by giving more to points to teams who beat teams by less. A good team can choose not to play defense to let their opponents score more so that they can achieve a higher ranking
On the other hand, with all the penalties this year and so many matches decided by penalties, a team playing too much defense may have wished for more offense after the score was posted as a buffer against penalties. Your premise is correct; however, depending on the game maybe a costly idea.
Even when a team is DQ'ed they can still score points for the alliance. As Karthik said there is no way to see who scored what at the end of the match. The score will continue to add because the DQ is called at the end of the match if at all. When the refs have discussed and agree on the DQ a red card is shown and the DQ recorded. If they decide on a yellow card or no card, then the points would have to have been counted. The only time the team can't score is when they are disabled.
[QUOTE=Zflash;740428]
many teams in the top 8 alliances were nowhere close to the top avg score contributors. average score is bs... so is the ranking score which promotes lack of competition by giving more to points to teams who beat teams by less. A good team can choose not to play defense to let their opponents score more so that they can achieve a higher ranking
Every one of our loss matches were relatively close in score. Our team never played defense because we were always asked to play offense by the alliance. I am curious as to why you would say that average contribution score is bs. What other easy way is there to judge a team by there contribution to any alliance they are paired with. I realize that if you play a good match with a team then you are likely to want to chose them. My question is how does a team that can contribute points that the top 10 teams are contributing get chosen for an alliance of teams they have not played with which is very likely in a field of 86.
65_Xero_Huskie
22-04-2008, 08:44
The issue with having your average score being high and not being picked is something you shouldnt take into consideration. The alliance selection has so many things that are determined before it happens that score doesnt mean everything. At one point our team was 0-4, but our rank score was 60.50 because we lost our matches 106-94, 96-84, etc. If they went by rank score people would find that the order of teams would have been different. Its all on the teams that are seeded in the top 8, They have won the right to choose who they want, and i say people should not question who they pick to be on their team.
Let me start out by saying that everyone who was picked in our division or any other division for that matter totally deserves to be there. As I originally stated we knew of the possibility of not getting picked. Some teams spoke with us about picking us but it just didn't happen. We still had a great season. However no one has answered my question and maybe there isn't an exact answer. How do teams expose themselves to the other 85 teams in hopes of being picked. Any suggestions on that topic would be great.
CzarValvador
22-04-2008, 09:45
[QUOTE=jasper.s.jacobs;740762]
Every one of our loss matches were relatively close in score. Our team never played defense because we were always asked to play offense by the alliance. I am curious as to why you would say that average contribution score is bs. What other easy way is there to judge a team by there contribution to any alliance they are paired with. I realize that if you play a good match with a team then you are likely to want to chose them. My question is how does a team that can contribute points that the top 10 teams are contributing get chosen for an alliance of teams they have not played with which is very likely in a field of 86.
Because, like I said already, Average contribution score does not take in consideration the little nuances that happen during the actual matches. Contribution score can be altered by another team tipping your robot, the other team completely shutting you down with defense, and many other unexpected events.
Average contribution also ignores any defensive robot that managed to "prevent" team scoring.
There are many factors that decide the quality of play, and contribution points may be one of them, but it is definitely not the main one.
I wonder, then, if this was really the case with Team 40 and the DQ was so early in the match it caused all points to be deducted because they had not scored yet?
And, it was late in the match. Maybe as many as 30 seconds left to play.
But 90 points in penalties is something you can't exactly argue with either.
And, it was late in the match. Maybe as many as 30 seconds left to play.
But 90 points in penalties is something you can't exactly argue with either.
Thanks, Eric for the timing clarification. 90 points in penalties... OUCH! Can't wait to see the video.
Videos are up on SOAP (http://video.soap108.com/2008/gal/) now.
Thanks again SOAP!
And, it was late in the match. Maybe as many as 30 seconds left to play.
But 90 points in penalties is something you can't exactly argue with either.
The match was Semi-Final 1 Match 2- when 1114 goes over, there were still 47 seconds left. The video has a pretty good shot of what actually happened-
195 was in the corner locking down 2 red trackballs. 1114 was attempting to gain access to one of the red trackballs, when 40 came around into the blue home stretch, perpendicular to 1114. 40 tried to push through the traffic jam created by 1114 and 195 battling it out for the trackballs. 1114 tilted up on to 40's chasis because of the blue trackball in 40's arm pushing high inside the bumper zone. With 1114 beached on top of 40, 40 continued to push forward without backing up, and 1114 went over.
http://video.soap108.com/2008/gal/gal_sf1m2.wmv
AdamHeard
23-04-2008, 14:07
40 also raises their arm after noticing that 1114 was tipping :rolleyes:
or because they were moving towards the overpass trying to hurdle...
Either is possible, but don't assume.
Corey Balint
23-04-2008, 14:13
40 also raises their arm after noticing that 1114 was tipping :rolleyes:
You could question that. There are a few different ways to look at it. Some people say it clearly warrants the DQ, some are on the fence, some are highly against it.
To me...when I first saw it, I saw 1114 going after the ball that 195 was blocking in (I'm not a fan of the blocking the ball in the corner strategy, but it works...sometimes), then 40 gets their ball caught under 1114's shooter as they come around the corner. They continue to lift up their shooter even though 1114 is clearly tipping, then they drive forward.
I see that as a DQ myself and I'm not one to call for DQ's.
If 40 didn't push forward/had started their hurdle earlier, I would have said it was 1114's fault and just went on scores (which still had 1114's alliance winning). However, that is what happened, and you have to deal with it. The Refs made the call they thought was right and took the time they needed to, to decide the true outcome. The Refs played this one the right way.
That was an exciting match though. A great showing by 195's alliance. I don't think anyone could have seen 195 playing ball defense the whole match if predicting what may happen. Looked like some nerves got into the drivers though...it was unlike 330 to get so many penalties in a match..their driver is one of the best in the Nation.
or because they were moving towards the overpass trying to hurdle...
Either is possible, but don't assume.
I never said they did it on purpose :o I will change the wording.. sorry
I only meant it as it helped in the knocking over process, they wouldn't of been able to ram 1114 over without the arm pushing up at the very top of the simbot
195 was in the corner locking down 2 red trackballs. 1114 was attempting to gain access to one of the red trackballs, when 40 came around into the blue home stretch, perpendicular to 1114. 40 tried to push through the traffic jam created by 1114 and 195 battling it out for the trackballs. 1114 tilted up on to 40's chasis because of the blue trackball in 40's arm pushing high inside the bumper zone. With 1114 beached on top of 40, 40 continued to push forward without backing up, and 1114 went over.
This may have been excusable/accidental if it happened on the opposite end of the field from 40's driver's station. It happened right in the blind spot for the middle and right driver's station for 1114/217/148, however it happend right in front of 40's driver's station. I think that's why they DQ'ed them, which is unfortunate for their partners.
40 was trying to score, 1114 was impeding them (I doubt it was intentional) 1114 tipped over. It seemed innocent enough to me, and I was standing about inline with the involved robots, on the side of the field closest to the stands.
I've seen teams do much worse and get away with it. Personally I thought it should have been a yellow card, but the refs clearly were not allowing any kind of contact whatsoever, and they chose to DQ 40.
Brandon Holley
23-04-2008, 15:39
40 was trying to score, 1114 was impeding them (I doubt it was intentional) 1114 tipped over. It seemed innocent enough to me, and I was standing about inline with the involved robots, on the side of the field closest to the stands.
I've seen teams do much worse and get away with it. Personally I thought it should have been a yellow card, but the refs clearly were not allowing any kind of contact whatsoever, and they chose to DQ 40.
I agree wholeheartedly with cory on this one....1114 was unintentionally impeding 40 by going after their trackball...the whole situation just seemed misfortuante
40 was trying to score, 1114 was impeding them (I doubt it was intentional) 1114 tipped over. It seemed innocent enough to me, and I was standing about inline with the involved robots, on the side of the field closest to the stands.
From what I could see, in the process or cornering off the red trackballs, 195 was blocking what otherwise would have been a clear passing lane around 1114. As per <G40>: A robot can not impede a robot of the same alliance, 195's position would have prevented 1114 from impeding.
From what I could see, in the process or cornering off the red trackballs, 195 was blocking what otherwise would have been a clear passing lane around 1114. As per <G40>: A robot can not impede a robot of the same alliance, 195's position would have prevented 1114 from impeding.But 1114 was blocking, as there wasn't a way around them. So they were impeding.
This could go in circles all day long. I say, call it like the refs called it, and let it go at that. Won't change anything now, anyway.
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