Sad day, FIRST now FIRLP

[Daviddavid]

For those who haven't seen the thread,
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66841&page=4

FIRST has been charging FTC teams higher registration fees the past few years out of an agreement with Lego/Pitsco.

Basically, FIRST is now FIRLP (at least to me)
For Increased Revenue of Lego Pitsco

I'm so mad right now. Bad decisions are one thing, corrupt decisions are another. So mad, so disappointed. Don't even know what else to say.

[Beth Sweet]

How is this thread different than the one referenced?

[Daviddavid]

I thought the one referenced was about the FIRST annual report and cash reserves, at least that seemed to be the focus of the thread. I thought FIRST and Lego having an agreement to increase school and team fees for the intermediate program is a totally different discussion. Isn't it?

I can't be the only one that thinks FIRST should be trying to get partners to lower fees and costs for teams, not making deals to sell out schools to help Lego or anyone else. I'd be pissed if they did the same to FLL to help Vex or anyone else, it's just not right.

[KathieK]

I'm not exactly sure what you are referencing, but if you are complaining about a $275 per team fee for FTC, think about it again. I doubt that comes anywhere near what it actually costs to provide the infrastructure to have the FTC program.

[Rick TYler]

Daviddavid is one of several new accounts created in the last 30 days making unsupported accusations of non-specific malfeasance on the part of FIRST officials. Since this is replicative of at least two other threads that have been infested by this anonymous posting activity I would like to ask the mods to shut down this thread and (please) look into whether or not there is an ongoing violation of the prohibition against multiple anonymous accounts. The other accounts I suspect were created just to parrot the same thing are "JeffJ," "Mary," and "Chicago1st."

(This isn't about censorship, by the way. Other non-anonymous posters have made some of the same points.)

[Brandon Martus]

Daviddavid is one of several new accounts created in the last 30 days making unsupported accusations of non-specific malfeasance on the part of FIRST officials. Since this is replicative of at least two other threads that have been infested by this anonymous posting activity I would like to ask the mods to shut down this thread and (please) look into whether or not there is an ongoing violation of the prohibition against multiple anonymous accounts. The other accounts I suspect were created just to parrot the same thing are "JeffJ," "Mary," and "Chicago1st."

(This isn't about censorship, by the way. Other non-anonymous posters have made some of the same points.)
The accounts in question are being looked into.

[Daviddavid]

Wow - shouldn't surprise you, but I take great offense to your post. So you're telling me I'm a fake account just because I disagree with you and am questioning FIRST? Is that what this site is, just a priase FIRST site, anyone who questions it should be cutoff and censored? If so, fine, I'll stop reading these forums or posting, since it doesn't seem to be a free sharing of ideas anyway. Seems more like a post here if you're a FIRST groupie and won't ever question what they do or how things can be done better for teams.

So let me get this straight Rick - Does everyone need to use their last name on here? I see hundreds of users without full names, are they annonymous and should be looked into also? Or just the ones who question FIRST or diagree with you? How am I annonymous? I use my first name, I even state where I go to school and I'm looking at starting or metnoring an FTC team (or I was, now I won't). Seems like you have no problem with all the single name users who don't disagree with you or challenge FIRST.

What do you want - my full name, my social security number, my phone number?

Let me save you the time of looking into my account - I'm sitting here at the Orchard Valley Cafe in Campbell, CA, where I normally am when back home. If you want to know I'm here, call the clerk and ask who's next to the couch on their computer. Why am I at home, because I'm going back and forth from school to home because my mother is very ill and in the hospital, so I wish my reality was fake. You hit a nerve, and I would like to call you a name right now, but I won't. I'm sorry you don't like my views and you think FIRST can do no wrong. But claiming anyone who disagrees with you or questions FIRST should be looked into and moderated? Are you serious? Is that what FIRST has taught you? Sorry, but this is a joke. I can't believe that anyone who questions FIRST is slammed on these forums.

[Racer26]

Its not that he's directly accusing you of anything, but there have been a number of users with no team affiliation, and a very low post count in the last few days all accusing FIRST of this LEGO/Pitsco conspiracy. I make no comment as to its truth or falseness. Larger post counts, a reputation behind them, and team affiliations are all things that increase believability of what someone is saying.

[Corey Balint]

Its not that he's directly accusing you of anything, but there have been a number of users with no team affiliation, and a very low post count in the last few days all accusing FIRST of this LEGO/Pitsco conspiracy. I make no comment as to its truth or falseness. Larger post counts, a reputation behind them, and team affiliations are all things that increase believability of what someone is saying.

Just to play Devil's Advocate....

They could now finally be posting stuff because... A)They have had enough and finally decided to say something in public. B)They are newer to FIRST or the "community" behind it.
Also...one can feign most of the above. Larger post count can't be driven up through the chit chat area (although thats easily trackable for all), reputation can be boosted easily by doing a "Reputation Ring" in which a group of 10+ people just constantly rep each other, you can also fake your team affiliation and make up a name.

[Allison K]

I think many of the newer accounts are because they were recently referred to the CD community from the FTC blog. I see many of the same names in comments over there.

Also, if these newer members are coming from FTC that may explain why they have vested interested in FIRST's dealings with LEGO/PITSCO/IFI/Other educational robotics platforms. We all tend to get uppity when FIRST changes things on us.

[Joe Matt]

Wow - shouldn't surprise you, but I take great offense to your post. So you're telling me I'm a fake account just because I disagree with you and am questioning FIRST? Is that what this site is, just a priase FIRST site, anyone who questions it should be cutoff and censored? If so, fine, I'll stop reading these forums or posting, since it doesn't seem to be a free sharing of ideas anyway. Seems more like a post here if you're a FIRST groupie and won't ever question what they do or how things can be done better for teams.

So let me get this straight Rick - Does everyone need to use their last name on here? I see hundreds of users without full names, are they annonymous and should be looked into also? Or just the ones who question FIRST or diagree with you? How am I annonymous? I use my first name, I even state where I go to school and I'm looking at starting or metnoring an FTC team (or I was, now I won't). Seems like you have no problem with all the single name users who don't disagree with you or challenge FIRST.

What do you want - my full name, my social security number, my phone number?

Let me save you the time of looking into my account - I'm sitting here at the Orchard Valley Cafe in Campbell, CA, where I normally am when back home. If you want to know I'm here, call the clerk and ask who's next to the couch on their computer. Why am I at home, because I'm going back and forth from school to home because my mother is very ill and in the hospital, so I wish my reality was fake. You hit a nerve, and I would like to call you a name right now, but I won't. I'm sorry you don't like my views and you think FIRST can do no wrong. But claiming anyone who disagrees with you or questions FIRST should be looked into and moderated? Are you serious? Is that what FIRST has taught you? Sorry, but this is a joke. I can't believe that anyone who questions FIRST is slammed on these forums.

Oh dear lord, there is a rash of people joining, making provacative posts, then leaving; stop putting words into other's mouths. Nobody asked for any information, they're doing normal moderation duties since we've never had a wave like this before. Don't take it personally.

Chill, relax, worry about your mom, a bloody robotics competition isn't as important as her.

FYI, I've challeneged, questioned, and called out FIRST on these forums, in public, and on podcast. Saying anyone is silenced who calls them out is as bad as saying everyone here is just a bunch of whiners; it's not true, it's a blanket statement, and is usually written out of passion of the moment.

Again, CHILL.

[Adam Y.]

I'm so mad right now. Bad decisions are one thing, corrupt decisions are another. So mad, so disappointed. Don't even know what else to say.
You are essentially trolling right now. You have no idea why it is a bad decision. If FIRST and Lego are conspiring to make a more powerful version of the NXT controller Im all for it. The NXT controller is so powerful compared to the IFI's the only problem with it is the limited IO.

[Molten]

Am I the only one that finds it suspicious that Daviddavid just jumped up 5 dots right after someone suggested that he might be taken more seriously if he had them. If this is truly 1 guy with many accounts, odds are that all of his fame came from the other new accounts that were recently made. If the admin, are seriously interested in seeing if there was any fowl play involved, then that would be a good place to start.

Also, Daviddavid... Are you saying that this is your only account? If not, do you know the owners of the other accounts that have been making similar threads? Did you read the user agreement? If you read the agreement and follow the rules, people will generally go easy on you.

[Tristan Lall]

Am I the only one that finds it suspicious that Daviddavid just jumped up 5 dots right after someone suggested that he might be taken more seriously if he had them. If this is truly 1 guy with many accounts, odds are that all of his fame came from the other new accounts that were recently made. If the admin, are seriously interested in seeing if there was any fowl play involved, then that would be a good place to start.Foul play is too difficult to pull off, in the manner you've described it, without those other accounts running into the rep limiter (i.e. 'spread the reputation around'). And yes, you're probably the only one that finds it particularly suspicious.

More likely, people sympathize with his explanation, and have accepted his stated intentions at face value, until actual evidence to the contrary becomes available.

Edit: Just to be absolutely clear, I'm talking about accepting his reasons for posting, not necessarily his allegations.

[Molten]

Foul play is too difficult to pull off, in the manner you've described it, without those other accounts running into the rep limiter (i.e. 'spread the reputation around'). And yes, you're probably the only one that finds it particularly suspicious.

More likely, people sympathize with his explanation, and have accepted his stated intentions at face value, until actual evidence to the contrary becomes available.

All I'm saying is that it takes a long time to get fame. Also, the 'spread the rep' limiter is only to ensure that you don't constantly give it to a single person. If he truly has four accounts. He could alternate the account that he gives the rep to and in turn give himself far more then the limiter would normally allow.

Go ahead and call me paranoid, I just don't see a single person getting that much that fast with the limited number of posts that he has used. Even if he does get a good deal of sympathy. Besides, I don't hear a great deal of sympathy coming from the general community. Especially, considering that a fair percentage don't even give rep. It is just very unusual which makes it suspicious.

[Brandon Martus]

The reputation given to Daviddavid since his last few posts are valid.
Ease up, guys. Please.

[dlavery]

I must admit to being very intrigued by the general response to this thread. Such an intense focus on the validity (or not) of the account assigned to the thread-starter. So little discussion about the question that the originating post raises.

As a FLL team parent, an FTC team sponsor, and FRC team participant, I must admit to cocking an eyebrow at the notion that the costs associated with participation in some programs may be influenced more by a sweetheart deal with one specific supplier than they are by the justifiable costs of running the program. If such a situation should exist, as it has been reported that FIRST has indicated, then I would be abandoning my duties to protect the pecuniary health of my team if I did not seek to fully understand the reasons why this situation may (or may not) exist.

Are we spending too much time shooting the messenger, while ignoring the message?

-dave



.

[Beth Sweet]

Folks, Brandon will take care of anonymous accounts. Please talk about the thread topic.

As to the thread topic, I have a hard time believing it is corruption. There is a difference between corruption and poor management. Unless there is proof, please call it poor management, not corruption, if it is your opinion that things are being done improperly.

I must remind you that the costs of everything are going up right now. Your food, your clothes, all prices are going up because of the oil issues (the discussion of which are for another thread). LEGO, based on these ideas, may be having to raise their prices (which are likely discounted to begin with) based on that, or to be able to supply less because of this. Gas prices are hitting everyone. I don't know if anyone has noticed, but you can't even get a candy bar for less than $.50.

Now I don't know if this is the reason or not, but I'm just saying that is a reason that prices are going up. So much as our ideals may be in a different world than the rest of society, unfortunately our pocketbooks are directly effected by the economy...

For the record, I have not gotten a chance to run the financials for this year to make an opinion on the issue

[Molten]

I must admit to being very intrigued by the general response to this thread. Such an intense focus on the validity (or not) of the account assigned to the thread-starter. So little discussion about the question that the originating post raises.

As a FLL team parent, an FTC team sponsor, and FRC team participant, I must admit to cocking an eyebrow at the notion that the costs associated with participation in some programs may be influenced more by a sweetheart deal with one specific supplier than they are by the justifiable costs of running the program. If such a situation should exist, as it has been reported that FIRST has indicated, then I would be abandoning my duties to protect the pencuniary health of my team if I did not seek to fully understand the reasons why this situation may (or may not) exist.

Are we spending too much time shooting the messenger, while ignoring the message?

-dave



.

Lavery has spoken. I do not think that the costs rising are our's to worry about. If you can't afford it, then find a different competition. If my team can't afford it... We will probably look into battlebots or one of the many other robotics competitions to choose from. I do not question the grocer over the price of milk. I buy it, or I go elsewhere. Why should this be different? FIRST is a great organization, but it is not like it does not have competitors.

[Adam Y.]

Lavery has spoken. I do not think that the costs rising are our's to worry about. If you can't afford it, then find a different competition. If my team can't afford it... We will probably look into battlebots or one of the many other robotics competitions to choose from. I do not question the grocer over the price of milk. I buy it, or I go elsewhere. Why should this be different? FIRST is a great organization, but it is not like it does not have competitors.
How is Battlebots cheaper unless you go for the smaller robots?
As a FLL team parent, an FTC team sponsor, and FRC team participant, I must admit to cocking an eyebrow at the notion that the costs associated with participation in some programs may be influenced more by a sweetheart deal with one specific supplier than they are by the justifiable costs of running the program. If such a situation should exist, as it has been reported that FIRST has indicated, then I would be abandoning my duties to protect the pencuniary health of my team if I did not seek to fully understand the reasons why this situation may (or may not) exist.
If we had more proof I would be singing a different tune but right now all we have is "non denials" and an anonyomous poster. Right now the best I can admit to is saying that there can be multiple reasons why.

[Rick TYler]

IIf such a situation should exist, as it has been reported that FIRST has indicated, then I would be abandoning my duties to protect the pencuniary health of my team if I did not seek to fully understand the reasons why this situation may (or may not) exist. Are we spending too much time shooting the messenger, while ignoring the message?

There at least two other threads where this horse has not only been beaten, it has been flensed, rendered, and the bones ground up. It's not so much a horse any more as it is glue.

In short, the discussion has been:

1. Allegation
2. Skepticism
3. Allegation
4. Request for confirmation (as in "facts")
5. Allegation
6. Repeated request for facts
7. Allegations jumping to other threads
8. Request (mea culpa) for the mods to investigate this as a trollish invasion

It remains a fact-free discussion, which I find especially troubling in a community dedicated to the rational process of science and engineering. My mind is open, but not so open that it's going to fall out of my head.

[Pavan Dave]

FYI, I've challeneged, questioned, and called out FIRST on these forums, in public, and on podcast. Saying anyone is silenced who calls them out is as bad as saying everyone here is just a bunch of whiners; it's not true, it's a blanket statement, and is usually written out of passion of the moment.

Again, CHILL.

Not to condone this kind of behaviour but to get the record straight, I have spoken out against FIRST on many occasions as I am someone who is a supporter of Robotics Education rather then a FIRST fan.

In some posts I have been very respectful and courteous and have even given support of my opinions and viewpoints. I recieved both good and bad repuatations from very 'elite' members of these forums who you are saying do not judge you for "anti-FIRST" messages but more bad then good. At the same time, I have challenged FIRST in a rude and [almost] insulting manner and recieved both repuatations from 'elite' members but more good then bad.

People should stop saying "we judge by the quailty of the post and not the pro-anti-FIRST messages" because its NOT TRUE!


Also, I know MANY people who have been members on these forums for over 5 years and have yet to post! It doesn't mean anything. Let Brandon check IPs if he wishes but don't accuse without proof (the same thing you are telling David to do.)


David, rather then bash FIRST why not hop? You can't change a company/corporation/organization by yourself. You have to go through a time consuming process usually involving lawyers.... Have you tried VEX [IFI]? Botball? BEST? among other programs? Check out the NASA Robotics Alliance Project website - http://robotics.nasa.gov/edu/matrix.php


EDIT:

Dave, when the messenger originally asks for one sort of payment but continues to raise it every other trip does it make the message "more" important because more was spent transporting? People need to realize that FIRST has its flaws! EVERYONE DOES! If you don't agree with the messenger find a new one! We have FedEx and UPS if we don't like the default USPS. If 3-days gets the job done, why overnight?

[TechieSam]

Daviddavid is one of several new accounts created in the last 30 days making unsupported accusations of non-specific malfeasance on the part of FIRST officials. Since this is replicative of at least two other threads that have been infested by this anonymous posting activity I would like to ask the mods to shut down this thread and (please) look into whether or not there is an ongoing violation of the prohibition against multiple anonymous accounts. The other accounts I suspect were created just to parrot the same thing are "JeffJ," "Mary," and "Chicago1st."


Rick, I checked the "members" listing of ChiefDelphi. There are currently 300 pages of pages of members with 30 or less posts, most of them with less than 10 posts and who are annonymous according to you. I counted 50 members on a page, that means you have about 15,000 members who should be moderated, removed, questioned or I guess just not listened to. There are thousands of members without last names, without team affiliations and so on - either they are all annonymous or they aren't, but don't be hypocritical. If you want a new rule saying everyone must use their full name, address, phone number and have a background check, fine - but don't just call out people who are voicing critical opinions you don't agree with or don't want to believe. Ever occur to you that some of the accounts on here ignoring information and praising FIRST like it's an infalible organization are "fake" and just plants trying to spin positive views of decisions people would object to?

Since I am one of those newer members who just started posting again recently, and since I agree with what David has said and think FIRST is doing some questionable things, I would like to report myself to the moderators. I guess I should be moderated or silenced also since I'm don't think FIRST is perfect and is capable of doing things we wouldn't be proud of. By the way, I didn't give David any rep points - I don't care what his rep is, and I don't care what yours is either.

But Dave Lavery said we should focus on the topic of the thread, not who posted it. And since he has lots of posts and a great reputation, it sounds like I have permission to value his comments. So I'll get on topic and share this:

This morning I called one of the planning committee members here that works with the FLL and FTC events in the Bay Area. They confirmed that Lego and FIRST did make such an agreement a couple years ago. I asked who confirmed it to them, and they said a FIRST rep named Steve Chizm. They said they asked why the Vex fees couldn't be cheaper, at least for extra teams from the same school, and they were told becuase of a deal with Lego preventing any FVC fees to be the same or lower than Lego fees. So back to the point of the thread, I will state my opinion - I think that is horrible and I think FIRST is selling out their own teams if there is any truth to that. Sorry if some don't want to hear that opinion, but it's mine. If I should stop posting on Delphi because I question FIRST, let me know and I will.

But based on what I've been told, I don't think David's FIRST vs FIRLP statement is out of line.

[Rick TYler]

This morning I called one of the planning committee members here that works with the FLL and FTC events in the Bay Area. They confirmed that Lego and FIRST did make such an agreement a couple years ago. I asked who confirmed it to them, and they said a FIRST rep named Steve Chism. They said they asked why the Vex fees couldn't be cheaper, at least for extra teams from the same school, and they were told becuase of a deal with Lego preventing any FVC fees to be the same or lower than Lego fees. So back to the point of the thread, I will state my opinion - I think that is horrible and I think FIRST is selling out their own teams if there is any truth to that. Sorry if some don't want to hear that opinion, but it's mine. If I should stop posting on Delphi because I question FIRST, let me know and I will.

Thank you. This is the sort of information I asked for originally. Now I am trying to figure out how FIRST is selling out its teams. Do you mean to say that because FTC has a higher registration fee than FLL, and that this was part of an agreement with LEGO, that this is a sell out? The FTC fee is $275 per team, and FLL is $200 per team. So, it is true that FTC costs $75 more to register than FLL. Is this the core of the claim that FIRST has sold us out?

[Chicago1st]

David,

My apologies to you and the others mentioned in this thread. I'm the only one who posted annonymously and I am very sorry that you and some others are being flamed because they agree with some of my statements or thoughts. There are many people who post on here without their names or team affiliations, if CD wants to cancel all of them, then fine. But at least be consistent - I don't think I said anything offensive or vulgar, I just posted my opnions about information that bothers me. Don't silence posts just because you don't want the information public or discussed - silence them if they are objectionable or offensive. Please people, stop being so rude to David, Jeff and others - don't make them guilty by association just because they agree with anything I said. Blame me, I posted annonymously, and explained why. To the person who mentioned rep points, I have received many rep points this week from a virtual who's who of people in FIRST, most I've never met. But I do feel better that they have seen what I have seen and they also don't think a lot of it is right, good for FIRST or good for teams.

I wasn't the messenger here, myself and others had this information disclosed to us by FIRST employees. If you want to shoot a messenger here on CD who posted annonymously, then shoot me - don't take it out on people who might be somewhat new to FIRST or ChiefDelphi, they don't deserve it.

[Zyik]

They said they asked why the Vex fees couldn't be cheaper, at least for extra teams from the same school, and they were told because of a deal with Lego preventing any FVC fees to be the same or lower than Lego fees.


Alright, do we have any idea when this deal runs out? Will it ever run out? I don't like the fact that FIRST made this deal, but we're only hearing one side of it. Maybe what FIRST got in exchange, something like significantly lower prices for Lego League teams, was thought to be worth it, at least at first. Thats speculation on my part. As an alumni of a Lego League team I would like to know.

[Rick TYler]

we're only hearing one side of it. Maybe what FIRST got in exchange, something like significantly lower prices for Lego League teams, was thought to be worth it

This is pure speculation: LEGO is going to allow FIRST to use a modified(?) version of the NXT controller for the new FTC program. LEGO doesn't normally do deals like this, and giving FIRST permission to use the NXT with non-LEGO construction pieces was a significant concession. In exchange for this, FIRST agreed to keep FTC the mid-range, mid-price program, with FLL cheaper and FRC more expensive. In exchange for keeping FTC in the middle, FIRST gets access to a fully-engineered(?) controller from a large, stable company. Not to say anything negative about IFI -- we just start by assuming that the FIRST/IFI divorce is due to irreconcilable differences and is going to happen no matter what.

Son of speculation: LEGO becomes a huge, flagship sponsor of the whole FIRST program, from JFLL to FRC. Even more huge than they already are.

Even more speculation: The FRC controller is based on the same platform.

Like I said, I am COMPLETELY making this up, but it would fit the known facts, and it also assumes that FIRST management really is trying to run a great program and not rip off the participants.

[Madison]

...why does FIRST need to get anything beyond a continued partnership with LEGO in return for such an arrangement?

The FLL program strikes me as the only of FIRST's programs that relies heavily on a single business relationship for its success. Without LEGO, there is no FLL and that gives LEGO significant leverage in any negotiation is has with FIRST. I won't speculate as to whether or not they've used that leverage.

One of FRC's strongest characteristics is the implied cooperation that occurs between its sponsors. What better way to encourage the creation of a new paradigm in what our society values and in how we conduct business than to bring together the largest corporations we can find and have them work together -- on the field while their sponsored teams compete -- and behind-the-scenes, donating volunteers and materials that create our ecclectic kit of parts.

[TechieSam]

Thank you. This is the sort of information I asked for originally. Now I am trying to figure out how FIRST is selling out its teams. Do you mean to say that because FTC has a higher registration fee than FLL, and that this was part of an agreement with LEGO, that this is a sell out? The FTC fee is $275 per team, and FLL is $200 per team. So, it is true that FTC costs $75 more to register than FLL. Is this the core of the claim that FIRST has sold us out?

Why would Lego have any say in the fees charged for Vex or FRC in the first place!?!? Isn't it FIRST's job to look out for the best interest of the teams, not the for-profit partners?

Here's what I would consider selling out - if Vex, the FTC partners and others requested that the team fees be $200 or lower for Vex to make it more affordable for more teams to join FTC and they were told the price for Vex must be higher at the request of Lego, then that is selling out. That is price fixing and that is what I consider selling out. If you think it's ok to raise the prices on FTC or FRC teams just to make Lego look more affordable to potential FTC schools, then I would disagree with you. That should be up to the schools to decide, not Lego or Vex.

[Karthik]

All I'm saying is that it takes a long time to get fame. Also, the 'spread the rep' limiter is only to ensure that you don't constantly give it to a single person. If he truly has four accounts. He could alternate the account that he gives the rep to and in turn give himself far more then the limiter would normally allow.

Go ahead and call me paranoid, I just don't see a single person getting that much that fast with the limited number of posts that he has used. Even if he does get a good deal of sympathy. Besides, I don't hear a great deal of sympathy coming from the general community. Especially, considering that a fair percentage don't even give rep. It is just very unusual which makes it suspicious.

I think you should read the Reputation FAQ (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/faq.php?faq=reputation_faq#faq_rep1) before you continue to make assumptions. A user can only give rep once they've made 50 posts. So even if your assumption that this poster is using the four accounts in question, they would be unable to increase each other's rep. Many longtime respected users of this forum can give substantial amounts of rep with one click. I can give a good 400+ points. So what this most likely means is, the fast rep accumulation is a result of a few reputation clicks from some of the top rep earners on this site.

[Rick TYler]

Why would Lego have any say in the fees charged for Vex or FRC in the first place!?!? Isn't it FIRST's job to look out for the best interest of the teams, not the for-profit partners?

Why would placing FTC in a particular market position at a price point higher than FLL necessarily be against the best interest of the teams?

Here's what I would consider selling out - if Vex, the FTC partners and others requested that the team fees be $200 or lower for Vex to make it more affordable for more teams to join FTC and they were told the price for Vex must be higher at the request of Lego, then that is selling out. That is price fixing and that is what I consider selling out. If you think it's ok to raise the prices on FTC or FRC teams just to make Lego look more affordable to potential FTC schools, then I would disagree with you. That should be up to the schools to decide, not Lego or Vex.

I would like the program to be free. FIRST isn't going to do that. I am not happy, but I choose to live with it.

Price fixing is when a group of two or more vendors gets together and agrees to have the same price for the same good or service. A single vendor can set their prices to any level they want, but that's not price fixing. It might be "dumb pricing" but it's not fixing.

What should be up to the schools? The choice of robotics program, or the registration fees charged by FIRST? I would say that schools can already choose whatever robotics program they like, and that they will not be given control over FIRST's fees.

For what it's worth, in the world of a robotics team budget, $75 is play money. On a 10-person FTC team, that's less than the cost of a movie ticket per person. If each one downloaded eight fewer songs from iTunes they could pay the extra $7.50 and still have enough left to buy a newspaper. Without the cost of going to championships, our Post spent more than $3,000 this year on our three FTC teams, and with championships added in our families and sponsors will have spent about $10,000. The "extra" $225 we spent over the cost of FLL registration just wasn't a big deal. We spent almost twice that just on t-shirts. It might be a sell-out, but not one that really costs very much.

[fredliu168]

I don't know about you, but I personally think $275 is a very reasonable price for the FTC program. Think about how they have to pay the GDC, FIRST affiliates, etc... I don't think $275,000 (rounding up the total teams), is actually enough to pay the expenses of running an operation like FTC. I personally think that without FRC, the registeration of the FTC program would increase immensely to maintain the same quality.

That being said, I don't mind FIRST striking a deal with lego as long as the registeration price remains around $275.

[Tom Bottiglieri]

Why would Lego have any say in the fees charged for Vex or FRC in the first place!?!? Isn't it FIRST's job to look out for the best interest of the teams, not the for-profit partners?

Everyone needs a bone thrown to them sometimes... It's business!
FIRST would not exist without for profit partners.

Look at most of the regionals out there. At one point almost every regional had a sponsor attached to the name. Some still do. Do you think our measly 6k registration fees could put up the cash for 41 regionals at ~150k a pop? With enough to run the every day operations of the program? And a rainy day fund? And to fund every little thing most people take for granted? The signs? Videos? Pictures? Brochures? Web site? Yes, these things all cost lots of money.

[dlavery]

I don't know about you, but I personally think $275 is a very reasonable price for the FTC program. Think about how they have to pay the GDC, FIRST affiliates, etc... I don't think $275,000 (rounding up the total teams), is actually enough to pay the expenses of running an operation like FTC. I personally think that without FRC, the registeration of the FTC program would increase immensely to maintain the same quality.

That being said, I don't mind FIRST striking a deal with lego as long as the registeration price remains around $275.

Wait a minute - the GDC and the affiliates get PAID??? FIRST has been holding out on me! I want my check!!!


(yeah, you might want to check your facts first before making posts like that)

[fredliu168]

Wait a minute - the GDC and the affiliates get PAID??? FIRST has been holding out on me! I want my check!!!


(yeah, you might want to check your facts first before making posts like that)

Wait they don't? Then I may have to reconsider my position.

I assumed FIRST regional directors, GDC, board of directors all receieved pay.

[Karthik]

Think about how they have to pay the GDC

Umm, I think I my cheque must have been lost in the mail...

/Gah, Dave beat me to the punch.

[GeorgeTheEng]

Wait they don't? Then I may have to reconsider my position.

I assumed FIRST regional directors, GDC, board of directors all receieved pay.

FIRST Regional Directors are paid. FIRST Staff in Manchester is paid. Senior Mentors and Vista volunteers are given a honorarium.

GDC members are not paid, they volunteer. (Great thanks BTW to Dave for his endless years with FRC and Karthik to FTC along with all the others on the GDCs for both programs) The affiliate partners are also volunteer positions. Some may be paid if they partner is part of a not-for-profit organization that can do that, but it does not come from FIRST.

Board members are entirely different. On most not-for-profit boards, your membership is related to what you (personally) or your company provides the organization. In other words, Board member are expected to provide a level of sponsorship to FIRST programs.

All that being said, FTC currently employees 3 people directly, a director and two program coordinators. They also account for a portion of the G&A (General and administrative) staff... Finance, Volunteer support, IT, Operations, Management. I think all THAT for $275 is a bargain.

[JaneYoung]

Wait they don't? Then I may have to reconsider my position.

I assumed FIRST regional directors, GDC, board of directors all receieved pay.

Amended:
Not everyone is paid. There are many valuable volunteers in the FIRST organization.

On many levels.

In Texas there are all sorts of populations represented - from the very poor to the very wealthy.
This is evidenced and reflected in our schools/districts.
We try to find that balance here and the variety of choices in programs works.

[Andrew Bates]

I'm not saying this is the reason that FIRST and Lego struck a deal, but with FIRST and IFI breaking up that leaves a very large hole to fill. FIRST may have looked to Lego to fill the hole the IFI was leaving. However if this deal was struck when the FVC/FTC program was being created this may not be true. This is just more speculation, something to think about.

I will hold any more judgment until we get some hard facts. Maybe they will address these issues at Championships?

[GBilletdeaux930]

Like it or not, FIRST is still a buisness. FIRST may be able to rely on volunteers for alot but volunteers arn't going to pay for everything.

Coming from a member of team that, like many others i assume, money is probably the biggest factor on what we do and FIRST is no different. FIRST needs money to hold these events.

Also, LEGO has been gracious by basicly supplying FIRST with FLL. We all know that FLL would not be the same without LEGO. And, like a buisness, they will give so much but they still expect somthing in return. And now they are providing FTC with a tool that, presumably(I say presumably because im going off another post farther up that said "modified(?)"), they havent released to the general public.

Inflation is part of our lives these days. And personaly, I'm more concerned with gas prices going up that were paying atleast $50 a tank of gas then a $75 dollar increase that you pay once a year.

[Elgin Clock]

These types of threads amuse me.

The reason is that I'm willing to bet not one of you has sat on the board of directors within this organization, and personally heard why or what the long term goals of FIRST is.

And don't look at me. I haven't either. But I do know this program exists for one reason.

To inspire youth to pursue careers in Science & Technology.

That's a pretty vague statement, this is true; but it gives FIRST whatever liberties on their end they feel is the best way to do this.

Do you want to start your own not-for-profit organization to inspire youth?
Do you want to even imagine how different that program will be & what you will have to sacrifice personally, & in the business sense to accomplish your basic goals?
Would you even know what your goals were going to be in a year? 5 years? 10 years? 15 years?
Would you have what it took to be a member of the board of this program if all you heard from down the chain was whining about everything you ever did?

It seems to me these forums, and some of the people on it are so far caught up in the HS world of robotics, and the situations that develop out of that world, that they tend to use any excuse to take the "HS drama mentality" up the chain to FIRST itself.

I've gotten annoyed at some of the things FIRST as an organization has done over the years, and I'm willing to bet you won't find anyone who hasn't.

What we need to do though, is separate the problems on the field, & the problems within management, and approach the issues you have a problem with in a good way.

A public forum in my opinion is not a good way.
Not CD anyways. Don't add to the stress of the already crazy season by making the mods here work overtime (volunteering btw) because of your whining, and complaining about everything you can in this program.

Let's leave the HS drama for the students, and as Mentors approach these things in a civilized manner.

I saw a suggestion of a "town meeting" of sorts with FIRST to discuss certain problems or changes within the organizations.

Let's all take a minute, and come up with some reasonable questions if you have any and not assume what someone told you is correct unless it comes from an official source.

Even Dave probably doesn't consider himself an official spokesperson for FIRST on these forums. He may post here about things, and partake in discussions, but we've all learned that the only official word form FIRST comes in a more official medium than a web forum - especially this one.

If you have problems with the organization, feel free to ask FIRST directly, and not start the "he said she said" game on these forums.

Most of the people partaking in those discussions I've seen are mentors.
Is this what we want our kids to learn from us?

That the HS drama & accusations mentality is a way to get answers when you aren't even in HS?

I am just truly disappointed in some people here & what they are saying.

It's not because what they are saying may be false (it very well may be true) but it's the way you are carrying out your statements that are making you look bad & reflecting poorly on the FIRST community as a whole.

I don't usually post serious things here, as some of you know, but when the maturity level of adults goes below that to most of the students in the programs we are involved in then I feel something needs to be said or done to remedy the situation.



This may be my last post till after Atlanta, so I hope this thread turns around in its overall direction it's heading in and starts to ask some good questions, and leads to some good answers.
Asking tough questions is not always a bad thing, but the way you ask them makes the difference.

I would hate to think that after a week it will lead to an even worse decline in attitudes towards the program we can all agree is achieving its main goal.

To inspire youth to pursue careers in Science & Technology.

If you feel it's not accomplishing that, then I, as well as many others will gladly show you the door.


And if you don't agree with me, send me a PM.

Or send me a quick response with some red negative rep dots...
They are only dots, and I have way too many of them anyways.
I really don't care how you choose to counter these thoughts of mine.
Agree with me.
Disagree with me.
But do it in a civilized manner and while you are at it, post in a civilized manner on the topics at hand.



Good luck to those teams going to Atlanta, and to those who can't join us, at least tune in & see what inspiration looks like.

This weekend is the culmination of all the inspiration FIRST has to offer over these past 15 or so years it has existed.
At least show some respect for that.

/steps off of soapbox.

[Molten]

I am tired of reading posts without facts. If anyone finds hard evidence as to support either side I would love to hear it, please send me a PM. Until then, I will disregard this thread as heresay.

BTW: Hard facts mean statistics. Not I heard this from a friend. The latter is about all I have seen on here.

[Rick TYler]

Wait a minute - the GDC and the affiliates get PAID??? FIRST has been holding out on me! I want my check!!!

We had all that money routed to Andy Baker's secret Swiss bank accounts. We didn't want you to OD on sugar-coated fried-dough products. It was for your own good.

[Rick TYler]

That is, if you think anyone's getting rich off this, think again.

Well, Andy Baker is now that we are routing Dave's GDC paychecks to him...

EDITED: And I would pay a quarter to be on the design committee. I have some ideas concerning the use of water in the game...

[KathieK]

Wait a minute - the GDC and the affiliates get PAID??? FIRST has been holding out on me! I want my check!!!


(yeah, you might want to check your facts first before making posts like that) ME TOO DAVE! Let's see.. how many THOUSANDS of hours have I put in to FTC over the last season??? Times minimum wage - wow, I could give up my day job! :)

[KathieK]

EDITED: And I would pay a quarter to be on the design committee. I have some ideas concerning the use of water in the game... Here's a sneak peak (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/31000) of the new FTC Showcase competition.

ONLY JOKING

[Richard Wallace]

Here's a sneak peak (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/31000) of the new FTC Showcase competition. Thanks, Kathie. I won't be in Atlanta this week for that other (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66932) sneak peek, but this makes up for it. :)

[Andrew Bates]

To think that I clicked and expected to see something... You got me excited over nothing... Oh well only 2 more days:)

[Protronie]

To quote Macho Man Randy Savage " OHHH YEAH WHEELS WITHIN WHEELS!"

Folks lets just all step back and take a chill pill for a moment. This behind closed door deal with Lego is somewhat a surprise but maybe just maybe FIRSTmade it as part of a bigger picture we have not been allowed to see yet. I've had some negative feelings of some of the back room goings on for some time which is one reason why I've held out joining or forming a team yet.
I prefer to take a wait and see approach, let the dust settle before jumping off either way. I can sense there are some strong feelings... I think what we need is some input for FIRSTHQ... maybe its time for the powers that be to lay the cards on the table and let everyone in on whats going on.
For now its all just guess work ... lets all just have a cup of coffee and give Dean or someone high up a chance to respond. :(

[dlavery]

EDITED: And I would pay a quarter to be on the design committee. I have some ideas concerning the use of water in the game...

Let the bidding begin!





.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Let the bidding begin!





.

I bid a dozen Krispy Kremes. :D

[Rich Wong]

Let the bidding begin!

-----------------------
I raise the bid to a dollar and two dozen K.Kremes !

(BTW- what is with all these serious & deep discussions?
Save it for AFTER the Championship, don’t you people have some packing to do?
Stop making me sit and read these long postings! I still have work and packing to do too.)

[galewind]

And now I'll just take a moment and say that you've all gone completely insane.

That is all.

[Andy Baker]

Well, Andy Baker is now that we are routing Dave's GDC paychecks to him...

Hey, don't drag me into this thread.

If "rich" means that I have a truck with a broken taillight and and a rusty bumper or if it means that I eat Hot Pockets for lunch, then I am guilty.

Andy

[DonRotolo]

that I eat Hot Pockets for lunch
mmmmmm.... Hot Pockets....:D (drools)

[Adam Y.]

And now I'll just take a moment and say that you've all gone completely insane.

That is all.
It's genetic.:)

[XaulZan11]

ummm...how did this thread get into discussing HotPockets, which are awesome, by the way....?

[Zyik]

And now I'll just take a moment and say that you've all gone completely insane.

That is all.

Your just now realizing this?

[Ryan Dognaux]

Hey, don't drag me into this thread.

If "rich" means that I have a truck with a broken taillight and and a rusty bumper or if it means that I eat Hot Pockets for lunch, then I am guilty.

Andy

Reminds me of Jim Gaffigan's Hot Pocket Routine (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFFTwnYXI20&feature=related)

[Rick TYler]

If "rich" means that I have a truck with a broken taillight and and a rusty bumper or if it means that I eat Hot Pockets for lunch, then I am guilty.

Well, I have a 17-year-old Chevy work truck with green slime on it (this is Washington, after all), but it's my son who really thinks you're rich. After just three years doing FIRST, he's now in college double-majoring in computer science and electrical engineering. As near as I can tell, he subsists strictly on Hot Pockets, dorm cafeteria carbohydrates, and Mountain Dew. I think you might be his hero.

[Mike Schroeder]

Hey, don't drag me into this thread.

If "rich" means that I have a truck with a broken taillight and and a rusty bumper or if it means that I eat Hot Pockets for lunch, then I am guilty.

Andy

gees Baker you can afford Hot Pockets.... All i can afford is Warm folds of bread with heavily processed meat and cheese stuck inside....

And i have been saying they need to work on their Marketing and Name for years now ...

[Rich Kressly]

I don't know about you, but I personally think $275 is a very reasonable price for the FTC program. Think about how they have to pay the GDC, FIRST affiliates, etc... I don't think $275,000 (rounding up the total teams), is actually enough to pay the expenses of running an operation like FTC. I personally think that without FRC, the registeration of the FTC program would increase immensely to maintain the same quality.

That being said, I don't mind FIRST striking a deal with lego as long as the registeration price remains around $275.

Whoa, hold on a second. The GDC gets paid? Affiliates get paid? Both of these "positions" are strictly volunteer. If you're right I've gotta go find three years worth of checks somewhere ;).

Edit ... darn I'm behind here .... Karthik, when you and Dave get your checks, we're all going out to dinner!

As for the bidding, I'm cheaper than Lavery. I'll give up my spot for a REALLY good burger.

[Rich Wong]

I just counted my payoff for this year for volunteering with the FIRST programs:
(starting in Sept. with FLL Kickoff to pre-Championship)

13 : T-shirts (volunteers and FLL & FRC team)
15 : Full meals (breakfast, lunch, dinner)
4 : CAPs from Teams
A Ton: Snacks (donuts, soda, pizza, chips, candy)
A Ton: Team Buttons and misc items
1 : "Disco Dave" Button (prizeless)