I'm confused! (VEX VS. FTC) [Archive]

Greg Needel

05-05-2008, 09:58

hey leav,

FTC: is the official FIRST competition. it will be using a new custom kit based on the lego NXT brain, with metal and motors from Lynxmotion. Teams who competed this past year will be able to get discounted kits for about $450. And then each team will pay a ~$275 registration for each event they attend. These events will be qualifiers for the FIRST championship in atlanta.

VEX: is a competition run by Innovation FIRST which will use the vex robotics design system. All past vex components are legal and teams can buy any of the new accessories which are coming up. Each event costs $75 per team and $25 for each additional team from the same high school. There will be ~40 regional events, 4 major events with 100+ teams all leading up to the world championship next spring. Also there are new initiatives under vex including an online only challenge which will encompass middle school through college.

emmell

05-05-2008, 10:09

Shalom Leav! Happy 60th to Israel!

FTC = FIRST Tech Challenge - The official intermediate program from FIRST to handle the bridge between FLL (FIRST Lego League) and FRC (FIRST Robotics Competition).

FVC = FIRST Vex Challenge - The original name of the pilot program that FIRST ran as the intermediate program that was changed in 2007.

VEX = The Vex robotics system made by IFI (Innovation First, Inc.) and originally marketed by Radio Shack. IFI bought the rights back from Radio Shack when they decided to dump the line.

VEX in this context can also mean the VEX World Championship run by IFI that was recently held in Northridge, California, USA.

Now, the confusion can come due to the robotic platform that is being used. For the last 3-4 years, all programs used the Vex robotics system. In 2008-09, the FTC will be using a new platform (called the FTC robotics kit for now) that is made by Pitsco, HiTechnic and other vendors. It will be a complete kit of parts for teams that compete in the 2008 (and beyond) FTC competitions. The game for FTC for 2008-09 has not been designed yet.

The Vex robotics system is still viable and available and IFI is sponsoring their own robotics competition. This past year (2007-08), the Vex World Championship game was called Bridge Battle. In future years, there will be different games (probably) but still using the Vex robotics system by IFI.

I hope this helps.

Mannie Lowe

Leav

05-05-2008, 10:36

Coach Norm

05-05-2008, 10:53

Hello Leav from Austin, Texas

I am the adviser/teacher for a Rookie Team at our High School. I feel like I am in the same boat as you. We bought some VEX kits this year. We used them for prototyping and education team.

I think I am going to go with the FTC for the future for a few reasons. We are mentoring three FLL teams in our district and hope to expand that to 8 teams eventually (one at each of our feeder elementary and middle schools). The FTC platform will be an extension of the platform they use in FLL. This will require more of an investment up front from what I understand.

As of right now, no VEX tournaments or events are located in a relatively short travel distance.

I will keep VEX in mind for future. The headquarters for the company is in Texas. I will want to offer more opportunities for contest in the future for additional students to participate in.

Norman

David55

05-05-2008, 11:00

Shalom Mannie! and thanks! we are celebrating our independence this thursday!
Thanks Greg and Mannie your comments were very helpful!
does anyone have experience with both competitions and could say whether one is better than the other in some aspect?
would you choose one over the other as a low-cost project for an FRC team in the months leading up to the kickoff?
Thanks again!

-Leav

First of all, I don't think the new FTC kits are available yet and I am not sure what the ETA is.

A few tips for VEX stuff from past experience:
The VEX joysticks are not allowed in the country and were confiscated (this might be negotiable: it was probably a frequency issue but that can easily be changed with different crystals). There are usually no problems for bringing in individual kits for home use but you may want to get that cleared for official school business. If you buy the kits from Robogroup they will replace the joystick with a legal Sanwa joystick (which is actually more advanced IMO).

Second...import whatever you can by yourself if the school permits that. Robogroup (the official importer) will have no problem ripping you off and charging 2-3X the original price which is already pretty high.

Andrew Bates

05-05-2008, 11:12

Having competed in both this years FTC World Championship and this years VEX World Championship I might be able to offer some insight.

FTC World Championship:
A very well run event, people were helpful and kind. One thing that sticks out is that when problems arose, robots not acting how they were supposed to etc., the field Techs did not seem to have any satisfying answers. For the amount of problems that were encountered I find it hard to believe that all problems were the fault of the teams competing. As is somewhat typical of a FIRST event by the second day matches were almost an hour and half behind schedule, this is mostly due to the FRC opening ceremonies.

VEX World Championship:
Got off to a somewhat rough start but by the time the Qualification matches were up and running everything was going smoothly. Everything ran on time for the most part. Very few technical problems or robot control problems. Only several teams had consistent problems. After talking to these teams and listening to their conversations with IFI engineers and EasyC tech support people it seems that no one has an answer and everyone is just as baffled as the teams. It seemed like nothing would solve the problems, not new hardware or code. The refing could have been a little better. It seemed that it wasn't until the finals that the refs started really calling anything. Not to be mean to them I know they volunteered and I'm thankful for that, could have been a little more harsh. AN example: a robot drove up onto another robot and proceeded to sit there for 30sec and the refs did not call anything. Overall IFI put on a great event and plans to expand the program even more.

Costs

FTC
$275 Registration fee and then $450 kit fee. There will also be fees for Regionals and the World event. It sounds like the kit is pretty much all teams should need. There might be more add ons available. More Kit info: here (http://www.firsttechchallenge.blogspot.com/).

VEX
$75 for the first team and $25 for each team after that.(NOTE: They seemed to indicate that the $25 fee for each additional team was only available for Schools) You can get by with the kit but will most likely want to purchase more in order to build a better robot. More kit info: here (http://www.vexlabs.com)

A few more thoughts:

I can say that the VEX competition seems to be more international. The VEX competition will also allow for involvement at the middle school, high school, and college level. There will also be an Executive Advisory Council made up of Teachers, Mentors, Event organizers, and Volunteers. Student Advisory Council mad up of Students from teams in all regions. Then there will also be Forums, Team Surveys and Team Polls. IFI wants the students who participate in the competition to be happy.

The FTC doesn't seem quite as international and has had trouble getting started in certain places inside of the US. The switch to the new kit has confused many teams as to what FIRST is up to.

Here is all that I can think of. I might add more later if I feel it's needed/relevant.

Greg Needel

05-05-2008, 11:22

A few tips for VEX stuff from past experience:
The VEX joysticks are not allowed in the country and were confiscated (this might be negotiable: it was probably a frequency issue but that can easily be changed with different crystals). There are usually no problems for bringing in individual kits for home use but you may want to get that cleared for official school business. If you buy the kits from Robogroup they will replace the joystick with a legal Sanwa joystick (which is actually more advanced IMO).

While this may be true of the current vex system, it is the crystals which are the illegal things in Israel as the frequencies are restricted there. IFI announced new wi-fi controls for vex a few months ago which would be legal in israel. http://www.vexrobotics.com/docs/VEX-Mini-and-802.11.pdf

I can tell you now that for my new team and western TN, I will be supporting vex and not FTC. As far as I am concerned, having seen that new FTC kit in atlanta it is going to be easier for my kids to design using vex then that new platform. Also the costs and my previous investment in vex hardware seal the deal.

David55

05-05-2008, 11:47

While this may be true of the current vex system, it is the crystals which are the illegal things in Israel as the frequencies are restricted there. IFI announced new wi-fi controls for vex a few months ago which would be legal in israel. http://www.vexrobotics.com/docs/VEX-Mini-and-802.11.pdf

That is what I tried to say. Our team had all the VEX joysticks confiscated which I found very weird since the crystals can be replaced with legal frequencies (and there are a lot of legal hobby-RC frequencies). It might have just been a misunderstanding.
Also...the new wifi controls may not be an option depending on when the team wants to get started since it may be a while before the new controls are available.

Rich Kressly

05-05-2008, 14:38

Just to clarify on the fees:

FTC:
- $450 kit ($900 without discount or rookie grant)
- $275 Team Fee to FIRST (this is last year's number). This gets paid once to HQ
- ???? Event Fee for every event. This vaires by event, but most are in the $250 range.

Total to budget (without travel, game pieces, or extra parts) for one team going to one FTC event for 2008-09: $975 with the discounted kit, $1425 with full priced kit.

Vex:
$450 minimum for equipment (one starter kit, battery, programming kit)
$75 Vex team fee
??? event fee - decided locally I believe and no word on this range yet.

Total to budget (without travel, game pieces, or extra parts) for one team. Right now, I'd say a total of $725 is more than enough and could be as low as $600 or so, depending on that event fee.

Now, if you already have Vex equipment and have multiple teams, then Vex becomes very economical

Lowfategg

05-05-2008, 14:52

Its going to be hard for FTC teams to decide if they will do FTC next year or switch over to IFI's VEX competition.

Basically: FTC = more expensive and a new kit, VEX = less expensive and the VEX kit.

Also to really do vex right you need to spend $900+ on parts. Just for an example I would estimate that our robot was around $2000 this year (thats just the parts on the robot).

Now it might be the case that new FTC kit will include a lot of parts so less needs to be bought which would make the prices a little more even.

Andrew Bates

05-05-2008, 15:41

It is my understanding that IFI/VEX will try and keep local/regional event fees low. I have no idea if FIRST plans to do anything to standardize or keep event fees low.

rfolea

05-05-2008, 16:42

Its going to be hard for FTC teams to decide if they will do FTC next year or switch over to VEX.

"Switch ove to VEX?" They are already doing the vex platform - the question is should they make switch to the new FTC platform ...

Lowfategg

05-05-2008, 16:48

"Switch ove to VEX?" They are already doing the vex platform - the question is should they make switch to the new FTC platform ...

I meant switch over to the IFI's VEX competition and leave FTC. I did not mean the VEX platform.

waialua359

05-05-2008, 17:14

Lowfategg

05-05-2008, 17:23

waialua359

05-05-2008, 17:42

The FTC world championships and the IFI world championships that happened this weekend are not connected in anyway. Also Vex is not sponsored by IFI, IFI makes the VEX kit and parts. They are the same company.

I realized that.
Thus, the FTC vs FVC in the past. I was referring to how they are now two separate competitions now.

Lowfategg

05-05-2008, 17:52

I realized that.
Thus, the FTC vs FVC in the past. I was referring to how they are now two separate competitions now.

I think the separation more has to do with FIRST getting away from IFI then there being to many teams. From what I see NI and Lego is FIRST future.

Andrew Bates

05-05-2008, 18:01

From what I was told, there was too much of a demand to accomodate many teams that wanted to come to CMP in Atlanta. Thus, VEX sponsored by Innovation FIRST eventually "broke away" and hosted their own tournament this past weekend in California for the World Championship. **correct me if I'm wrong. Just what I heard.**
However, there is another "World" Festival being hosted in Hawaii from December 4-6, 2008 which will feature many international teams also.
My assumption is that it gives flexibility for teams that could not make this past weekends one and that it allows more teams to compete at an international level.
As an FRC team that plans on doing FRC for years to come, if we considered to do VEX, we would probably choose the fall schedule so that the build seasons dont overlap. Plus, its in Hawaii!;)

As far as I can tell you are mostly wrong... Sorry...

IFI hosted the VEX World Championship because there was interest throughout the world in the Bridge Battle game. Thus they decided to open BB up to everyone. Many local tournaments were held and teams competed there for spots to the VEX World Championship. Teams who competed in other games and tournaments also received invitations to the VEX World Championship.

The event being held in Hawaii is the Pan-Pacific Championship(December 2008), a tournament on the scale of the of the recent World Championship. There will also be The Asian Robotics Championship(November 2008) and the Championship of the Americas(March 2009) both on the same scale as the Pan-Pacific Championship. These will all feed into the World Championship which is of unknown scale.

bellpride

05-05-2008, 18:22

Also to really do vex right you need to spend $900+ on parts. Just for an example I would estimate that our robot was around $2000 this year (thats just the parts on the robot).
We must keep in mind that Overdrive (Lowfategg's team) had two functioning robots for FTC at the same time. Also keep in mind that parts can be reused, and as to what Overdrive bought with $2000 worth of parts plus past kits, I can only wonder.

Can FTC kits be reused from year to year, or will it be like FRC, where a new kit needs to be bought each year?

Lowfategg

05-05-2008, 18:51

We must keep in mind that Overdrive (Lowfategg's team) had two functioning robots for FTC at the same time. Also keep in mind that parts can be reused, and as to what Overdrive bought with $2000 worth of parts plus past kits, I can only wonder.

Can FTC kits be reused from year to year, or will it be like FRC, where a new kit needs to be bought each year?

No that was only our newest robot MAX 4 (we used almost 4 boxes of aluminum, 1 vex kit, wheel kits, gear kits, and etc). This year we have spend somewhere in the range of $4000 in new parts. We spend around $5000 last year. Please note that right now we have 3 robots (MAX 2,3,4) and two smaller practice bots. Now we are insane (like any other insane FRC team) and I do not recommend using that price range as a comparison to any other FTC teams.

We also have a TON of spare vex parts.

Just as a note I don't really keep track of our finances so these are ballpark estimates.

But for price ranges for any FTC team in order to be quite competitive you need to spend $900+.

waialua359

05-05-2008, 19:04

I think the separation more has to do with FIRST getting away from IFI then there being to many teams. From what I see NI and Lego is FIRST future.
Thus, the reason for the separation.

waialua359

05-05-2008, 19:07

As far as I can tell you are mostly wrong... Sorry...

IFI hosted the VEX World Championship because there was interest throughout the world in the Bridge Battle game. Thus they decided to open BB up to everyone. Many local tournaments were held and teams competed there for spots to the VEX World Championship. Teams who competed in other games and tournaments also received invitations to the VEX World Championship.

The event being held in Hawaii is the Pan-Pacific Championship(December 2008), a tournament on the scale of the of the recent World Championship. There will also be The Asian Robotics Championship(November 2008) and the Championship of the Americas(March 2009) both on the same scale as the Pan-Pacific Championship. These will all feed into the World Championship which is of unknown scale.

I believe we are saying the same thing. The magnitude and demand to send teams to some kind of world championship tournament, has created these "other" tournaments to allow teams internationally to compete.

Lowfategg

05-05-2008, 19:11

I believe we are saying the same thing. The magnitude and demand to send teams to some kind of world championship tournament, has created these "other" tournaments to allow teams internationally to compete.

I guess you could say that but since I think IFI saw a demand for a competition since FIRST will be dropping most vex stuff next year. They were trying to pull as many teams as they can into there new competition since most teams don't want to spend $950 or $450 dollars on a new kit.

I know we don't mind spending that as long as FIRST gives us a good game and a good amount of parts comparable to VEX.

Oh little off topic but what you think we should use to cut the new aluminum parts?

Jeff K.

05-05-2008, 19:41

FIRST is going in a different direction, going with the new FTC Platform with Lego. It may bring more profit...but is less of a learning experience for the students. Building both a showcase FTC Robot and Vex bot in 72 hours with some teammates, we spent twice as long working on the showcase just because it was a pain. The overall system although looks cool...is not as user friendly as VEX was.
As a platform that bridges the gap between middle school FLL and FRC robots, it is a big step. Vex was the perfect intermediate, and a great learning platform. Not only that, but being cost effective made it an easy tool to put into the classroom or in workshops.
It is a shame to see an amazing learning tool be put aside, but I look forward to getting a Vex Mini for my dorm room.

Being both an FTC Pilot team and FVC Pilot team, we were able to compare both kits from the beginning-the FTC Pilot had a lot left to yearn for. The metal was less than satisfactory for usefulness. The parts had to be mounted in strange fashions which for some people works. The shafts were only 3-4", and left little room for creativity, although everything worked with Lego. Controlling the robot was fun, if you don't mind having to use a laptop to act as the interface between the robot and controller and all the bluetooth blips that randomly occured. Bluetooth is good for headsets...not so much controlling robots. We needed to purchase a lot of extra hardware due to the limited quantities in the kit, just enough for a chassis, and with all the excess bracing because of how much flex the metal had with the weight of the motors.
For the final kit, there will most likely be upgrades and additions to the hardware to make it a more complete kit, but for first impressions, Vex won us over and will still continue to.
My $0.02.

PS: For cutting metal, dremels suffice, but a band saw or miter saw are nice.

Lowfategg

05-05-2008, 19:48

For cutting metal, dremels suffice, but a band saw or miter saw are nice.

We used a angle grinder with a cut off wheel to cut vex parts but it always melted the aluminum vex metal. I like the idea of a miter saw.

Anyway back on topic.

Andrew Bates

05-05-2008, 20:03

I believe we are saying the same thing. The magnitude and demand to send teams to some kind of world championship tournament, has created these "other" tournaments to allow teams internationally to compete.

I think we both aren't understanding each other correctly. It seems to me that you are saying that IFI had the VEX World Championship because FIRST changed the rules on who could go to the FTC Championship. I'm saying that I don't think FIRST changing the rules had anything to do with IFI holding the VEX World Championship. IFI held the VEX World Championship because they were interested in continuing the use of VEX in a competitive event. They saw the success of Bridge Battle in the Asian Robotics League. They also saw how local groups around the world and in the US were holding Bridge Battle Tournaments. They then decided to start a series of World events by holding the first VEX World Championship.

KathieK

05-05-2008, 20:15

And then each team will pay a ~$275 registration for each event they attend.It is my understanding that IFI/VEX will try and keep local/regional event fees low. I have no idea if FIRST plans to do anything to standardize or keep event fees low.
Each FTC team pays a team registration fee to FIRST of $275 (which is not expected to increase in the coming season). Competition fees are separate from this team registration fee. The FIRST Tech Challenge Affiliate Partners are volunteers who sign a legal contract agreeing to host an FTC Championship Tournament which abides by certain standards set forth by FIRST. Depending on the levels of sponsorship that the FTC APs acquire for their event, and the costs they incur for hosting the tournament, the tournament fee can range from $0-300 per team.

First of all, I don't think the new FTC kits are available yet and I am not sure what the ETA is. The last we've heard FTC team registration for next season is set to open sometime this month; kits ordered now will be shipping in August.

Gdeaver

05-05-2008, 21:09

fredliu168

05-05-2008, 22:27

I think IFI has been pretty clear about their program. There is no way to tell what the cost and location of regional events right now because that is still being established. IMO everything else is crystal clear.

ManicMechanic

05-05-2008, 23:11

Also to really do vex right you need to spend $900+ on parts. Just for an example I would estimate that our robot was around $2000 this year (thats just the parts on the robot).

It depends on at what you mean by "do vex right". If you mean win awards at nationals, yes. But if you just want to perform respectably and have a shot at regional awards, you can do it for a lot less. Our team is pretty content to be "solid, not spectacular" and our robots are not expensive.

Our first year, the robot was quite simple and was worth about $550 ($100 programming platform, $50 battery, $400 parts). Admittedly, we actually had 2 starter kits, but once the challenge was released, we didn't use the second transmitter, so we essentially cannibalized second kit for the equivalent of 1 gear kit, 1 metal & hardware kit, and 2 wheels, worth a little over $100. It placed second in the qualifying matches at the Norcal Championship, and the team won the Inspire Award.

This year's robot added about $150 in parts and won the Finalist Award at NorCal. We've seen teams that have basically a beefed-up Squarebot that do respectably at regionals (one even captained an alliance).

We're a pretty low-budget team overall. Our tools are tin snips, file, and pliers for all metal except axles, which we ship off to the teammate with a hacksaw and vise at home. Beyond our first-year expenditure, our total annual budget is under $500/year, which only allows for $100 -$200 in additional parts/year. But every year we add parts, the collection becomes bigger. Almost everything we've purchased is still usable (except for a few broken gears). Some parts look really worn, but still work to our satisfaction.

This year's low Vex registration is a gift!

Lowfategg

05-05-2008, 23:18

It depends on at what you mean by "do vex right". If you mean win awards at nationals, yes. But if you just want to perform respectably and have a shot at regional awards, you can do it for a lot less. Our team is pretty content to be "solid, not spectacular" and our robots are not expensive.

Our first year, the robot was quite simple and was worth about $550 ($100 programming platform, $50 battery, $400 parts). Admittedly, we actually had 2 starter kits, but once the challenge was released, we didn't use the second transmitter, so we essentially cannibalized second kit for the equivalent of 1 gear kit, 1 metal & hardware kit, and 2 wheels, worth a little over $100. It placed second in the qualifying matches at the Norcal Championship, and the team won the Inspire Award.

This year's robot added about $150 in parts and won the Finalist Award at NorCal. We've seen teams that have basically a beefed-up Squarebot that do respectably at regionals (one even captained an alliance).

We're a pretty low-budget team overall. Our tools are tin snips, file, and pliers for all metal except axles, which we ship off to the teammate with a hacksaw and vise at home. Beyond our first-year expenditure, our total annual budget is under $500/year, which only allows for $100 -$200 in additional parts/year. But every year we add parts, the collection becomes bigger. Almost everything we've purchased is still usable (except for a few broken gears). Some parts look really worn, but still work to our satisfaction.

This year's low Vex registration is a gift!

Yup, I understand that. I will say that it is more fun when you get to play with more stuff and I am very glad that we are so well off. Thats why we helped fund another team this year.

Hopefully over the summer my team will be working on sharing what we have learned so others can also grow and be inspired to do great things.

I always felt that an FTC team should work as hard as it can to be more like an FRC team.

And please don't build a beefed up square bot there annoying! :D

KathieK

06-05-2008, 06:21

I've gone over the dribble of info from both IFI and First for FTC and right now there just doesn't seam to be enough info to do a fair comparison of the 2 programs. I wish IFI and First could get it together and release all the details as far as costs, location, and fees. It would help school sponsored teams to get their plans in front of administrations before the school year end insanity hits. The next year budget battles are being waged now and the lack of details can hurt proposed programs.What sort of details are you looking for?
FTC has released costs for team registration and the new kit of parts. Tournaments will be between $0-300 each. The current Affiliate Partners are listed on the FIRST website; if you have a question about a particular tournament, contact the AP in charge of that area and ask. I would venture to say that some of them may know details already about next year's tournaments and others will not. If there isn't an AP listed for your area, contact FIRST at ftcteams@usfirst.org and ask if there are plans to get an AP on board in your area.

waialua359

06-05-2008, 07:16

I think we both aren't understanding each other correctly. It seems to me that you are saying that IFI had the VEX World Championship because FIRST changed the rules on who could go to the FTC Championship. I'm saying that I don't think FIRST changing the rules had anything to do with IFI holding the VEX World Championship. IFI held the VEX World Championship because they were interested in continuing the use of VEX in a competitive event. They saw the success of Bridge Battle in the Asian Robotics League. They also saw how local groups around the world and in the US were holding Bridge Battle Tournaments. They then decided to start a series of World events by holding the first VEX World Championship.

Yes,
Now that FTC is the new platform for FIRST and no longer VEX (hence FVC), and given the success of VEX internationally and nationally, its a great idea to have a world tournament. Hearing already that there may be over 100 teams coming to Hawaii this December for an international tournament is a testiment to the demand still for VEX, especially since VEX is no longer at CMP. That is what I implied about my original post. No pun intended.
Whether a FTC or VEX fan, I'm sure both offer great learning opportunities for students. And by having tournaments in the fall, its "convenient" for FRC teams to do both FRC and VEX since they dont interlap build seasons. Whether FIRST was still behind VEX or not, we still like it as a great learning tool.

teachsail

07-05-2008, 10:54

We have spoken to a large number of teams in Southern California and Indiana and they are all unanimous in their opinions, stick with VEX and IFI and forget about FTC. We have all made small to large investments in VEX. We like VEX’s versatility, teach ability, and expandability. Why should we pay the extra price because FIRST is being ungracious and unprofessional to IFI, and we told them that at the FTC LA Regional back in December. Did you notice IFI was missing from the sponsor banners at the championship, and was replaced by Pitsco?

In both California and Indiana organizers who used to help put on FTC competitions are now organizing VEX competitions. There may be no FTC’s in So Cal. I am interested to know if that is the case in other parts of the country. It is already clear that the Chinese and the Brazilians are going to keep using VEX as they were very successful at the VEX Worlds. What will FIRST do if an FTC registration plummets? Will they realize that they made a mistake?

IFI really knows how to put on a competition, the VEX Worlds were the coolest looking robotics competition I have ever seen. If FIRST is going for a sporting event look I guess the VEX Worlds looked a little like a rock concert.

VEX is not perfect, there are some control issues that can be frustrating and impossible to diagnosis. Robots that restart in autonomous in the middle of a match, and robots that become unresponsive or act on their own, etc. I feel that IFI will do what they can to fix these.

Andrew Bates

07-05-2008, 11:55

What will FIRST do if an FTC registration plummets? Will they realize that they made a mistake?

The thing is we don't know whether FIRST made a mistake or whether they had no choice. I doubt we will ever know what went on behind closed doors between IFI and FIRST.

Lowfategg

07-05-2008, 12:05

The thing is we don't know whether FIRST made a mistake or whether they had no choice. I doubt we will ever know what went on behind closed doors between IFI and FIRST.

I think that the number of teams will fall but not by much since I think a lot of FLL team will be upgrading next year. I really feel that FIRST wanted to get more people to move up to FTC for FLL and thats why the brought Lego into the new kit.

Madison

07-05-2008, 12:18

It boggles my mind that y'all spend more on Vex parts than we do on our FRC robots -- even if we were to consider the costs of things provided in the KoP.

$4,000? Really?

DaveF

07-05-2008, 12:19

KathieK,

One question that I have not seen answered, that, if answered, I think would be helpful to many - FIRST needs to define the term "complete kit". The words "complete kit" can have different meanings:

1) Teams may add nothing in order to have more materials and options. They must build only from what they are provided.

2) The kit is sufficient to build a robot to participate, but teams may add more materials identical to what is supplied in the official kit.

3) The kit is sufficient to build a robot to participate, but teams may add more materials identical to what was provided as well as other materials from other pre-approved sources.

4) The kit is sufficient to build a robot to participate, but teams may add materials from any source (probably with some cost limitations and specifically prohibited items, like in FRC).

I realize FIRST may feel this is a game rule issue that will be addressed when the next game is released. But for many, it is more about what the kit contains, and whether they will be significantly limited in making a competitive robot with it. I was involved with one of the showcase teams, and I found the "complete kit" to be insufficient for allowing a great deal of creativity. So I would argue for option 4, above.

For what its worth, my team has decided to participate in both FTC and Vex for this next year. With many unknowns, it is the best way to learn more about both and make a good choice for the long term.

JaneYoung

07-05-2008, 12:21

The professional relationship that IFI and FIRST have enjoyed in the recent past as business partners, leads me to believe that IFI understands and has supported the FIRST mission and goals.

As teams and individuals make decisions regarding the VEX program and FTC program, it is good to remember and reflect the FIRST philosophy regarding Gracious Professionalism. Many threads and posts have accumulated over the years, encouraging members of FIRST to remember that they reflect themselves, their teams, schools, their mentors, their parents, and their sponsors when they post. They help create reputations by how they conduct themselves as individuals and as teams. Because of IFI's history with FIRST, the supporters of the VEX program can easily transition that philosophy over to the growth and development of VEX.

Rumors and negative remarks towards FIRST when discussing VEX, reflects on the VEX program and on IFI and those affiliated with the program/company. Gracious Professionalism is part of the basis of the FIRST philosophy. How businesses and their clientele conduct themselves is a reflection of their understanding of an important philosophy and mission.

Something to think about.

Lowfategg

07-05-2008, 12:35

It boggles my mind that y'all spend more on Vex parts than we do on our FRC robots -- even if we were to consider the costs of things provided in the KoP.

$4,000? Really?

You can spend almost ($6000? or $4000? KoP and $3500 extra stuff) $7500 on your FRC bot and thats just for one year. The amount I listed is over the two years we have been doing FTC.

Also remember your reg and regional cost are far more then FTC.

You need to spend $5000 to enter into Atlanta while we only need to spend $1000.

Rick TYler

07-05-2008, 12:39

It boggles my mind that y'all spend more on Vex parts than we do on our FRC robots -- even if we were to consider the costs of things provided in the KoP. $4,000? Really?

Since you didn't quote another post it's hard for me to see where the $4,000 came from, but I think I can 'splain part of it for you.

Some FTC teams are classroom educational programs enhanced by the competition. Equipping a classroom with Vex components and the accompanying educational materials can easily exceed $4,000. For a teacher to adopt another platform for competition than the Vex parts they use in the classroom may not make sense when the students already have experience with the platform and the parts are ready to hand. To synchronize the classroom and the competition might mean, to some teachers, that they would have to buy 5-10 FTC kits for $900, and to buy those every year. That would be VERY expensive for the average classroom.

Exothermic Robotics built four competitive robots this year (come see them at the FTC Robofest in Monroe this Saturday), and competed with three of them in the Washington Regional. Including program registration fees but not other costs like travel and t-shirts, we easily spent more than $6,000 over the last two years on our program. A really competitive Vex FTC robot includes between $800 and $1,200 in registration fees, Vex parts, and associated "stuff" (like SDKs and batteries).

One of the previous attractions to FTC was that we could use that stockpile of Vex parts year after year, allowing us to spend money on expanding our program rather than "re-buying" basic components. One of the few weaknesses in the FRC program, I think, is that you are forced to buy replacements every year for perfectly serviceable components you bought the year before. Vex solved this problem in the mid-size robot world. This is probably the biggest frustration for the Vex FTC pioneers -- they bought into a system that was a very cost-effective way to accomplish the FIRST mission, and the rules seemed to change mid-course.

FIRST is doing what it can to ease the economic pain of converting, but I really see why some teams won't be returning to FTC next year.

I can see that this is OK, too. If some of The Mission gets accomplished by an organization other than FIRST, the world is still changed, and that's a big win for FIRST, for Woodie, for Dean, and for all of us.

artdutra04

07-05-2008, 13:23

It boggles my mind that y'all spend more on Vex parts than we do on our FRC robots -- even if we were to consider the costs of things provided in the KoP.

$4,000? Really?Well, it's really easy to spend a few thousand on Vex parts. :)

I know FRC 228 now has four Vex kits, and a ton of other Vex parts and add-on kits. And they'll most likely get even more when the new Vex sensors come out. With all these parts, the students on our team can build four separate Vex robots with all different kinds of manipulators and sensors.

The Vex robots serve as a great learning tool for our new students, a fast prototyping option for their ideas during the FRC build season, and for the most part they are 95% reusable every year. (Except for those few students who love to bend and cut all the metal parts into the weirdest shapes...)

So it may sound like a steep investment at first glance, but we've found it to be a very worthwhile investment which has benefited the team for the past three years, with many more to come.

Madison

07-05-2008, 13:24

Since you didn't quote another post it's hard for me to see where the $4,000 came from, but I think I can 'splain part of it for you.

I misread Lowfategg's earlier post about what they spent on parts. Their robot was $2,000 worth of parts, not $4,000, but that still approaches what we spend to build our bigger machines.

You can spend almost ($6000? or $4000? KoP and $3500 extra stuff) $7500 on your FRC bot and thats just for one year. The amount I listed is over the two years we have been doing FTC.

Also remember your reg and regional cost are far more then FTC.

You need to spend $5000 to enter into Atlanta while we only need to spend $1000.

I understand that our overall costs are significantly higher, but the $6,000 registration fee does not represent the value of the Kit of Parts -- and since we do not use everything in the kit, it doesn't represent the value of our robot components. Also, while we're allowed to spend $3,500 on parts, we typically spend somewhere around 1/4 or 1/3 of that.

Ignoring the controller, since that drives the cost of the FRC robot up tremendously, you all spent considerably more money on raw materials than we did. That's interesting, I think, if not particularly meaningful.

Lowfategg

07-05-2008, 14:59

Just wondering would you or anyone else mind telling what you run your FRC team on. Cost of parts and so on.

EricH

07-05-2008, 15:04

Just wondering would you or anyone else mind telling what you run your FRC team on. Cost of parts and so on.We're limited to $3500 of parts and materials not in the KOP. I have yet to see a team who used all of that in one year. I'd say on average, maybe $1000-$1500 per robot. (Some only get nuts and bolts, others get lots of stuff, etc.) Oh, and if you have team members/sponsors do the machining and building, material is the only cost you pay.

This does not include registration, extra event registration, spares, travel, T-shirts, and other things like that. Parts only.

Madison

07-05-2008, 15:09

Just wondering would you or anyone else mind telling what you run your FRC team on. Cost of parts and so on.

Annually, our budget sits somewhere between $60,000-$80,000. This includes expenses that most teams do not consider part of their budget as some of their funding comes from the students themselves.

In a given year, we'll spend about $5,000 on parts and materials, though our competition robot typically has only about $1,500 worth of parts used.

Lowfategg

07-05-2008, 15:25

Annually, our budget sits somewhere between $60,000-$80,000. This includes expenses that most teams do not consider part of their budget as some of their funding comes from the students themselves.

Eeck! that is a lot of money. What you guys use that all on? I am guessing you cover a lot of team member expenses. How many do you have on your team?

Lowfategg

07-05-2008, 15:27

We're limited to $3500 of parts and materials not in the KOP. I have yet to see a team who used all of that in one year. I'd say on average, maybe $1000-$1500 per robot. (Some only get nuts and bolts, others get lots of stuff, etc.) Oh, and if you have team members/sponsors do the machining and building, material is the only cost you pay.

This does not include registration, extra event registration, spares, travel, T-shirts, and other things like that. Parts only.

I look at a lot of robots and wonder how they stay under $3,500 (233, 1114, 25, and etc). How they do it? Is it because they only pay material costs and sponsors carry machining costs?

EricH

07-05-2008, 15:31

I look at a lot of robots and wonder how they stay under $3,500 (233, 1114, 25, and etc). How they do it? Is it because they only pay material costs and sponsors carry machining costs?Pretty much. The rules are simple (sort of). If a team member (including sponsors) does the work, the team only pays materials. If a non-team member does the work, the team pays labor as well. Note that this is for cost determination; the sponsors may also pick up the tab on materials. It still comes under the team budget.

waialua359

07-05-2008, 15:33

Based on the last few posts that I've read.
I dont think there will be any substantial dropoffs (lower than anticipated registrations) for either FTC or VEX. With the amount of teams growing outside the US, if anything, I think there will be more teams wanting to get in, then slots that will be made available, regardless of who "transfers" from one program to another.
Despite the fact that some teams have spent more on VEX than they did on some team's FRC bot/program, most teams dont. It really is a more economical alternative to FRC that can provide an equal amount of learning opportunities for students.
Cool if you can do all three! :D :D :D

Lowfategg

07-05-2008, 15:40

Pretty much. The rules are simple (sort of). If a team member (including sponsors) does the work, the team only pays materials. If a non-team member does the work, the team pays labor as well. Note that this is for cost determination; the sponsors may also pick up the tab on materials. It still comes under the team budget.

Thats really that is the only thing that bugs me about FRC. If its a sponsor its free but if its is donated it is not. How in the world are you going to tell the difference between a sponsor or a donation?

EricH

07-05-2008, 15:46

Thats really that is the only thing that bugs me about FRC. If its a sponsor its free but if its is donated it is not. How in the world are you going to tell the difference between a sponsor or a donation?What do you mean?

Cost accounting: If it's a sponsor/team member, you count materials only. Otherwise, you count materials and labor. It's not that you don't get it for free, it's that you can't put it in the cost accounting as free. The easy way, of course, is to count the donator as a sponsor/team member. Many teams do.

Lowfategg

07-05-2008, 15:51

What do you mean?

Cost accounting: If it's a sponsor/team member, you count materials only. Otherwise, you count materials and labor. It's not that you don't get it for free, it's that you can't put it in the cost accounting as free. The easy way, of course, is to count the donator as a sponsor/team member. Many teams do.

What I mean is that if you count labor it hacks away at your $3,500 limit meaning you have less to spend on materials. I think its sort of weird that sponsors work can be counted as free but donated work is not. I guess FIRST wants you to get sponsors more then donated work.

You basically answered my question of how team get around this when you said,

The easy way, of course, is to count the donator as a sponsor/team member. Many teams do.

My last question would be what is a sponsor defined as and what is a donation defined as.

Maybe some one could point me to a thread talking about this so I don't run to off topic.

Andrew Bates

07-05-2008, 15:54

As far as cost is concerned I think you do need to remember the registration fee.

With the FRC registration fee you get a whole lot of parts.

With the FTC registration fee you get a number.

Therefor it would appear that an FTC might spend more on parts because they have to purchase everything. Keep in mind that the minimum cost for parts used to be around $450, that got you a starter kit, rechargable batteries, and programming kit.

Rick TYler

07-05-2008, 15:57

Despite the fact that some teams have spent more on VEX than they did on some team's FRC bot/program, most teams don't. It really is a more economical alternative to FRC that can provide an equal amount of learning opportunities for students.

We have about 20 students on three FTC teams, and spent around $10,000 this year, including registration fees and travel to Atlanta. That's $500 per student. Without Atlanta, our cost per student was $200. It looks like Madison's team spends more than $1,000 per student. That's the economic attraction of FTC.

Madison

07-05-2008, 15:58

Eeck! that is a lot of money. What you guys use that all on? I am guessing you cover a lot of team member expenses. How many do you have on your team?

$20,000 in FIRST entry fees, $5,000 on parts, $20,000 on hotel rooms, $15,000 on travel -- and a lot of incidental costs that I can't begin to quantify like food, marketing materials, entry fees for non-FIRST events, insurance, etc.

We have about 20 students on three FTC teams, and spent around $10,000 this year, including registration fees and travel to Atlanta. That's $500 per student. Without Atlanta, our cost per student was $200. It looks like Madison's team spends more than $1,000 per student. That's the economic attraction of FTC.

We absorb a lot of costs that are typically passed along to students on most FRC teams. We have to provide transportation to and from meetings for every student and heavily subsidize the travel of both students and mentors. We also have a team that ranges in size from about 30 to 60 students from year to year, so we're quite a bit bigger than an FTC team. If y'all had participated in FRC instead, I think your budget would end up in the same ballpark as ours with the additional expense of FRC entry fees and the travel expenses associated with competing in Portland.

FTC/Vex is definitely a more economical alternative to FRC when you consider that most expenses associated with running the team are static -- or at least, fixed on a per person basis. Airfare and lodging are the same price irrespective of how big your robot is, so entry fees will comprise the significantly larger budgetary requirements, for better or for worse.

I was just surprised to see that some FTC teams spend more than we do on their robots. It's interesting to consider, then, that even the development of the robot can be looked upon as a fixed cost per student in much the same way as you might consider travel -- and you start to wonder how much FRC registration fees are subsidizing other FIRST programs.

Lowfategg

07-05-2008, 16:02

$20,000 in FIRST entry fees, $5,000 on parts, $20,000 on hotel rooms, $15,000 on travel -- and a lot of incidental costs that I can't begin to quantify like food, marketing materials, entry fees for non-FIRST events, insurance, etc.

Ok, that is what I figured. My team is very small so a lot of those costs would not exist.

bellpride

07-05-2008, 16:15

I look at a lot of robots and wonder how they stay under $3,500 (233, 1114, 25, and etc). How they do it? Is it because they only pay material costs and sponsors carry machining costs?
233, 1114, and 25 spend way more than $3,500 on parts! 233's students fundraise about $100,000 each year, starting in the summer (this doesn't include NASA money).

Lowfategg

07-05-2008, 16:22

233, 1114, and 25 spend way more than $3,500 on parts! 233's students fundraise about $100,000 each year, starting in the summer (this doesn't include NASA money).

If this is true then there robots are illegal or you are saying that they spend more then $3,500 on parts but only put $3,500 of parts on the robot itself.

bellpride

07-05-2008, 16:26

If this is true then there robots are illegal or you are saying that they spend more then $3,500 on parts but only put $3,500 of parts on the robot itself.
My bad, most of that money is for expenses (flights, hotels, etc.).

Billfred

07-05-2008, 16:31

If this is true then there robots are illegal or you are saying that they spend more then $3,500 on parts but only put $3,500 of parts on the robot itself.I inspected 233 at Florida in 2006; if they put more than $3,500 in materials on that robot, I'd be shocked. Now, how much they spent in prototyping, travel, etc., etc., etc. could go sky high--but that's also not my (or the rules') concern.

Bob Steele

07-05-2008, 17:14

One of the previous attractions to FTC was that we could use that stockpile of Vex parts year after year, allowing us to spend money on expanding our program rather than "re-buying" basic components. One of the few weaknesses in the FRC program, I think, is that you are forced to buy replacements every year for perfectly serviceable components you bought the year before. Vex solved this problem in the mid-size robot world. This is probably the biggest frustration for the Vex FTC pioneers -- they bought into a system that was a very cost-effective way to accomplish the FIRST mission, and the rules seemed to change mid-course.

FIRST is doing what it can to ease the economic pain of converting, but I really see why some teams won't be returning to FTC next year.

I really agree with you on this point Rick... FRC could really learn something from this approach. If we are going to have to re-cycle our controller in coming years .... why can't we re-cycle off-the shelf components that we purchased for FRC robots we designed and constructed in the past.

This is part of the waste of FRC... given the thrust for obtaining a smaller environmental footprint and wasting less energy, FRC should be encouraging the re-use of components. Now we would still be constricted by only being able to use the motors from the kit but why not allow teams to recycle off-the shelf components? I believe the way the rule has been to this point is that if a component was used on a competition robot, it is not allowed to be used again.

I am not talking about designed components here.... so an arm designed for one season could not just be taken off the old and put on the new.... but a gearbox that was purchased could be reused...

Given that we are faced with taking the control system off the robot, why not allow us to use these team purchased components over?

Bob Steele

07-05-2008, 17:22

We have about 20 students on three FTC teams, and spent around $10,000 this year, including registration fees and travel to Atlanta. That's $500 per student. Without Atlanta, our cost per student was $200. It looks like Madison's team spends more than $1,000 per student. That's the economic attraction of FTC.

Rick I have to ask this question... How did you go to Atlanta from Seattle and only spend $300 a student? The airfare alone is close to $500.

If you can tell me how to do that I would appreciate it...
We spent about $450 on airfare and another $250 each for hotel...
We took 24 students.... students paid their own airfare and we fundraised the hotel...

How did you do it for $10,000 total? I need to get ahold of your travel person.

thanks!!

EricH

07-05-2008, 18:02

My last question would be what is a sponsor defined as and what is a donation defined as.

Maybe some one could point me to a thread talking about this so I don't run to off topic.How about the FRC Manual, Section 8.3.3, which is found at http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles/Community/FRC/FRC_Documents_and_Updates/2008_Assets/Manual/8%20-The%20Robot-RevG.pdf

...or you are saying that they spend more then $3,500 on parts but only put $3,500 of parts on the robot itself.That's what they're saying. Remember, teams also prototype, which takes a lot of money. Some build a complete second robot.

Mr. Van

07-05-2008, 20:16

I am not talking about designed components here.... so an arm designed for one season could not just be taken off the old and put on the new.... but a gearbox that was purchased could be reused...

Given that we are faced with taking the control system off the robot, why not allow us to use these team purchased components over?

This IS allowed. If the item is in its original COTS condition, you can use it again. If it has been modified, then it can't be reused. Nothing wrong with re-using a sprocket from last year that is IDENTICAL to an off the shelf one you could purchase.

Of course, you must account for the cost of the item in your BOM.

-Mr. Van

PS. Sorry, I know this is a thread about VEX & FTC - back to topic now...

Joe Ross

07-05-2008, 20:22

I really agree with you on this point Rick... FRC could really learn something from this approach. If we are going to have to re-cycle our controller in coming years .... why can't we re-cycle off-the shelf components that we purchased for FRC robots we designed and constructed in the past.

This is part of the waste of FRC... given the thrust for obtaining a smaller environmental footprint and wasting less energy, FRC should be encouraging the re-use of components. Now we would still be constricted by only being able to use the motors from the kit but why not allow teams to recycle off-the shelf components? I believe the way the rule has been to this point is that if a component was used on a competition robot, it is not allowed to be used again.

I am not talking about designed components here.... so an arm designed for one season could not just be taken off the old and put on the new.... but a gearbox that was purchased could be reused...

Given that we are faced with taking the control system off the robot, why not allow us to use these team purchased components over?

There is no rule keeping you from reusing COTS components (in FRC this year). There was a rule in a previous year, but even that was removed in an update. If you modify the COTS component (for example by making a gear box lighter) you would not be able to reuse it because it is fabricated.

waialua359

07-05-2008, 21:29

Andrew Bates

07-05-2008, 21:32

Ok let's try and get this thread back on topic.

Leav did you get the answer/s that you were looking for?

waialua359

07-05-2008, 21:40

EricH

07-05-2008, 21:41

Here's what I dont get.
Why did our FRC OI have to be the 2008 version? We bought extras in 2006 and 07 and wanted to use them as a backup. Sure enough, our 2008 one went bad and couldnt pass inspection at the next regional since the UPC code sticker on the top said 2007.
I realize that the rule is about not having an unfair advantage over a rookie team who did not have access to it, but that's pretty ridiculous.
Why should we have to purchase another one that says '08 on it.You shouldn't have had to. The rule was that you could use previous controllers (up to a point) as replacements. If an inspector made you change, you should have talked to the head inspector--with a rulebook in hand.

Rick TYler

07-05-2008, 21:54

Rick I have to ask this question... How did you go to Atlanta from Seattle and only spend $300 a student? The airfare alone is close to $500.

It's new math!

Actually, since we had to pay our own travel, only eight of our 20 students made the trip to Atlanta. We spent about the same as you traveling to Atlanta, but I was able to report spreading that "average cost" across more team members.

Once you get on an airplane, the cost advantage of FTC sure does get smaller.

Lowfategg

07-05-2008, 21:57

It's new math!

Actually, since we had to pay our own travel, only eight of our 20 students made the trip to Atlanta. We spent about the same as you traveling to Atlanta, but I was able to report spreading that "average cost" across more team members.

Once you get on an airplane, the cost advantage of FTC sure does get smaller.

Our if your like my team you drive! But it might be a bit of a long drive for you. :D

chaoticprout

07-05-2008, 22:00

I've been reading a lot on other indirect costs. Its got me a little confused. Travel costs should be the same regardless of what program you are doing, FTC or FRC.
We raise 100,000 per year for FRC. I'm sure it would be pretty close to that figure if we did FTC and had to travel to the same/similar destinations.
I see the advantage of doing FTC (cost standpoint) if your doing a local tournament.

I agree 100% on the travel side of things, but take into account that you pay $19,000 or so in registration for 3 regionals and the championship whereas (obviously depending on region) an equivalent amount of FTC regionals could have been played for around $2000.

Lowfategg

07-05-2008, 22:04

Is there really anyway of doing FRC relatively cheaply but still be competitive? Then add being a rookie team that knows what they are doing into the mix. Can they still be competitive?

Rick TYler

07-05-2008, 22:32

Is there really anyway of doing FRC relatively cheaply but still be competitive? Then add being a rookie team that knows what they are doing into the mix. Can they still be competitive?

I'm sure this is going to be a wildly unpopular answer, but it is incredibly unlikely that an underfunded, inexperienced rookie team will be competitive.

Lowfategg

07-05-2008, 22:57

I'm sure this is going to be a wildly unpopular answer, but it is incredibly unlikely that an underfunded, inexperienced rookie team will be competitive.

Well I guess that is up to some rookie team out there to disprove.

EricH

07-05-2008, 23:24

Is there really anyway of doing FRC relatively cheaply but still be competitive? Then add being a rookie team that knows what they are doing into the mix. Can they still be competitive?Rookie that knows what they're doing can certainly be competitive.

Cheaply and competitive is a little harder. The new control system may help, but... The key is to get parents and sponsors, lots of sponsors. Donated materials, too.

And if the Kitbot is the same next year, then use that as a drive base. And of course, KISS.

[EDIT]Rick, there are rookie teams that do really well. FRC 2056 is the ultimate one, of course--they STILL haven't lost a regional they've entered, to my knowledge. 1717 did pretty well, 1902, and I think there are others like 2272 in L.A.

Akash Rastogi

07-05-2008, 23:27

Well I guess that is up to some rookie team out there to disprove.

Go for it. And its not like you'd be working alone. There are so many teams out there who love to mentor and do a great job of it.

Lowfategg

07-05-2008, 23:37

Go for it. And its not like you'd be working alone. There are so many teams out there who love to mentor and do a great job of it.

I never said we would be that rookie team. :)

Really I am the one that wants to do FRC but I am collecting as much information as I can before our team makes and decisions. I am sure there are a bunch of teams that would be willing to help us (three that I know of).

Akash Rastogi

07-05-2008, 23:40

I never said we would be that rookie team. :)

I think you guys should be that team. Its time you guys transitioned into FRC after being successful in FTC. I know that you've been thinking about it too.:)

Lowfategg

07-05-2008, 23:47

I think you guys should be that team. Its time you guys transitioned into FRC after being successful in FTC. I know that you've been thinking about it too.:)

Hey you never know Overdrive might yet go FRC but that is yet to be seen and still under heavy discussion. So for now I will keep everyone guessing.

And if we go FRC I don't know if I could ever convince people that WE DID NOT NAME OUR TEAM AFTER THE 2008 Game, FIRST named it after us! :p

Ok we are really off topic now maybe some one should start a thread called compete randomness.

waialua359

08-05-2008, 04:29

Team 330 could certainly give a few pointers about mastering the art of KISS and using a relatively lower than average cost of materials to build some of the best performing robots ever. They do their homework, that's for sure!

teachsail

09-05-2008, 12:14

It boggles my mind that y'all spend more on Vex parts than we do on our FRC robots -- even if we were to consider the costs of things provided in the KoP.

$4,000? Really?

Remember some teachers like myself have bought VEX kits for entire classes, with one kit per 2-4 students. Some teachers have done this for multiple classes. I know one teacher who teaches 5 classes of robotics with VEX kits. Yes that is a huge investment in VEX and Robotics. Now imagine how much work it would be to try to phase out the VEX and replace it with a more expensive FTC kit, and replace all the VEX oriented curriculum.

dtengineering

09-05-2008, 12:34

I'm sure this is going to be a wildly unpopular answer, but it is incredibly unlikely that an underfunded, inexperienced rookie team will be competitive.

I'll agree with the underfunded aspect making things difficult, but having had our butts thoroughly kicked by "inexperienced rookies", I can confidently answer that while experience gives you an undeniable edge, it hardly gives you an insurmountable edge.

Especially in a competition such as VEX, where you have a chance to re-build your entire machine. In FRC you pretty much only have one shot to get it right, but the improvements I have seen in teams during a VEX/FTC season as they go from competition to competition... the "inexperienced rookies" that I actually had to show how to program a simple auto mode in EasyC at the BC FTC tournament managed to make it all the way to their divisional quarter finals in Atlanta.

Jason