Electric Vehicles, in favor of? or disapprove?

[Generalx5]

My question to the public is, would you buy an electric vehicle on your next purchase if it were widely available?


This electric vehicle runs on battery power only, no hybrids or synergy drive system.

If the price were just under $50,000 and has a range of 60km per charge.

Please reply saying either you would make the purchase or not. This vehicle is standard size, doesnt look like its electric, lets say that it looks like a regular gas car, or even better. Metalic Paint comes in silver, white, red, black and navy blue. The car type is a sedan, comes with a lifetime warrantee and all the charger accessories etc too.

if you have the money, or is able to take out a lease, would you go for it?

Oh and top speeds of 120km/h is achievable. This is a vehicle that you would mostlikely drive to and from work. AC, Entertainment pakage, and nagivation pakage included.

Im just courious....since, electric vehicles have been showing up, but didnt sell very nicely. Some say that they were made to look bad so they dont sell well. Others say that the oil industry puressures the car manufactures to halt research on electrics...

[Andrew Schreiber]

I would like to buy an electric car.

Now, I would have to say it would go further than 60 km on a charge. Id like at least 300 miles (~480 km) and reasonably accelerate to speeds of about 70 mph (112 km/hr) I would also like to see it in the $30,000 range.

I wouldn't object to it looking different. Im just sick of paying nearly $4 for a gallon of gas.

Also, take a look at Tesla Motors. Might be something that interests you.

[Elgin Clock]

If the price were just under $50,000 and has a range of 60km per charge.

Just under 50 grand CAD (or ~$49,700 USD), and only 60km (or 37 miles?) :yikes:

No.

The reason pure electric cars are not widely available are exactly those two reasons.
High prices & low range (in mileage).
Gas, or better yet, gas/electric hybrids just make more sense at this point in time.

The best pure electric cars (that have been marketed to the public - ie: from the Solectria Company, & others) can get at least 50 miles per charge cycle btw.
They use regenerative braking systems to help bump them into that range.

Until brand new or better battery technology comes out to make a 100 mile range possible, I can & will not see one in my immediate future. Especially at the 50,000 Dollar mark. That is just ridiculous at this day & age.

[OScubed]

Not I said the pig.

30 mile range for a $50k car with the top speed of a snowmobile (and probably not nearly as much accelleration)? I'm betting the cost per mile (or KM) isn't THAT much cheaper than gas by the time you pay your electric bill. And guess what - all that electric doesn't come cheap either. If we were to overnight make all cars electric we wouldn't have nearly the electric capacity to accomodate that kind of vehicle battery recharge load on a daily basis. So that means building more electrical plants. With Solar and Wind being rough to make work economically or environmentally for various reasons that means water, coal or nuclear. Coal and Nuclear not being so much better for the environment than gas is, that means really water. So who's going to build the hydro dams, move people out of their houses on the lake so that the water can rise? Look what an environmental disaster that's been in Yangtse China.

I'd work on cheap clean electric power before I'd work on gas -> electric conversions. We need sustainable fusion then this whole thing just goes away. Gas would have to be a WHOLE lot more expensive before it becomes a significant portion of anyone average wage earner's budget. Until it does - it really has no impact on Joe or Jane Q Average. If it did would they be buying SUVs to tool around the city?

[Generalx5]

I forgot to mention about regenerative braking. Yes thats also included. I stated that 60km being the minumum, not ideal conditions. Something like 80kmm is more likely with RBS, the hood, trunk top, and roof have high density solar panels built into them too. The $50,000 is the introductory price, the initial price to help with production funding. It will easilly drop into the 30 range when demand for them is high.

I just need to know who would be interest at the moment.

The electrics have the most torque from 0, so acceleration is far better than gas cars.

[Jeff Rodriguez]

If I had the money, I would buy one. Mainly, I would want to help get projects and ideas like that off the ground.

[Tristan Lall]

No way.

The main factor is the price point: it's nice to be nice to the environment, but not at a premium of tens of thousands of dollars. I could have a bicycle (a moderately-nice one), an efficient-but-tiny subcompact (like a Hyundai Accent) and an efficient-but-full-sized sedan (maybe a base-model Nissan Altima) for that price, all bought new. That way, I could balance environmental impact versus practical needs. Or, if I felt especially philanthropic, I could put the spare tens of thousands to something more useful toward environmental protection.

Also, you haven't specified how much energy it consumes. If I get my energy from a coal-fired generating station, 200 km away, are the emissions and transmission losses on par with the efficiencies and emissions associated with operating a conventional engine? If not, then it's very difficult to make the case that the vehicle is environmentally-friendly at all.

And how long does it take to charge it? If it's a 30-minute deal when supplied from a special high-current charging station, then the range may be marginally acceptable for short trips between charge points. (Hopefully I would get one of these charge points installed for free, with electrical service upgrades as necessary, upon purchasing the car.) But if it needs to stay overnight, plugged into the wall, that range is unacceptable. Many people drive 20 km or more to work: if you use a third of the range on the way to work, and another third on the way back, are you going to be happy about not being able to get to and from robotics in the evening?

How will the battery will perform over its lifetime? What is the battery's lifetime? I don't want to pay replacement costs, unless it's very cheap. And I don't want to find myself with 25% less range in three years.

And is the top speed a governed speed that it can reach easily, or is it a drag- or powertrain-limited speed that it can barely manage? Traffic often travels at 130 km/h on major highways in Southern Ontario. 100 km/h must be reachable within about 20 s, for it to be safely driveable on the highway, given the length of most acceleration lanes.

All of these things can be compromised to some degree in the design of the vehicle, but when most, or all of them are sub-par, it's not going to be acceptable to anyone.

Fortunately, none of the electric vehicles currently marketed suffer from so many deficiencies. If a 60 km range is advertised, you'll get a subcompact city car, or perhaps a souped-up golf cart ("NEV"). It won't cost $50 000.

By the way, the solar angle is a dead end, at least for a car that needs to be used as a daily driver. What do you do when there's a centimetre of ice and snow on the car? Scrape the precious solar cells? Use more energy to defrost them? What happens when it's cloudy, or it's night? Purpose-built solar racecars exist that can reach 120 km/h, and sustain that speed in continuous sunshine. But they're worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, and seat one (small) person in a reclining position with virtually no visibility, no cargo capacity, no amenities and minimal crash protection. (The driver of the University of Toronto's solar car team was killed in a road accident a few years ago: he stood no chance against the two-tonne minivan that destroyed the solar car.)

[Mark Rozitis]

My question to the public is, would you buy an electric vehicle on your next purchase if it were widely available?


This electric vehicle runs on battery power only, no hybrids or synergy drive system.

If the price were just under $50,000 and has a range of 60km per charge.

Please reply saying either you would make the purchase or not. This vehicle is standard size, doesnt look like its electric, lets say that it looks like a regular gas car, or even better. Metalic Paint comes in silver, white, red, black and navy blue. The car type is a sedan, comes with a lifetime warrantee and all the charger accessories etc too.

if you have the money, or is able to take out a lease, would you go for it?

Oh and top speeds of 120km/h is achievable. This is a vehicle that you would mostlikely drive to and from work. AC, Entertainment pakage, and nagivation pakage included.

Im just courious....since, electric vehicles have been showing up, but didnt sell very nicely. Some say that they were made to look bad so they dont sell well. Others say that the oil industry puressures the car manufactures to halt research on electrics...

No I would not, not at that price and range even with a lease or finance option, if it was just for running around downtown locally then I would get an electric bike or very small car but for that money if better go 800km on a charge and well...cost less, alot less for the masses to adopt it and how long would the charge take? thats the other issue, for those like me who drive for a living I need something affordable and that charges up fast.

Bottom line is these oil and gas prices are not comming down, we are one massive hurricane or disaster away from a real fuel price crisis in Canada and the USA and even where oil has gone to now at $125/barrel has dumbfounded all the so-called experts.

Our way of life is going to change big time when gas is $6-10/gallon/litre etc.

For some yes public transit is an option and our GO trains in Ontario are standing room only now and bike repair shops can't keep up but for many including those who's business is on the road they sure better come up with a small light electric car and truck soon....not three years from now.

Whatever they come up with also has to be in line price-wise with whats on the market now as well.

All I know is the big car companies are delivering large gas guzzleing vehicles here to car lots and there is no space to dump them becauase last year's models are still sitting here unsold.

If they cant come up with a long range fast charging battery then perhaps the way to go is battery exchange, you have a car what can maybe do 500km on a battery and you would exchange batteries at the gas station instead of recharging them.....it would have to be plug and play design but thats not the difficult part I would think.

Instead of filling up would would change batteries and pay accordingly, just like alot of the gas stations up here do with the BBQ propane tanks.

Bottom line is $200 oil is not that far away

[Mark Rozitis]

No way.

The main factor is the price point: it's nice to be nice to the environment, but not at a premium of tens of thousands of dollars. I could have a bicycle (a moderately-nice one), an efficient-but-tiny subcompact (like a Hyundai Accent) and an efficient-but-full-sized sedan (maybe a base-model Nissan Altima) for that price, all bought new. That way, I could balance environmental impact versus practical needs. Or, if I felt especially philanthropic, I could put the spare tens of thousands to something more useful toward environmental protection.

Also, you haven't specified how much energy it consumes. If I get my energy from a coal-fired generating station, 200 km away, are the emissions and transmission losses on par with the efficiencies and emissions associated with operating a conventional engine? If not, then it's very difficult to make the case that the vehicle is environmentally-friendly at all.

And how long does it take to charge it? If it's a 30-minute deal when supplied from a special high-current charging station, then the range may be marginally acceptable for short trips between charge points. (Hopefully I would get one of these charge points installed for free, with electrical service upgrades as necessary, upon purchasing the car.) But if it needs to stay overnight, plugged into the wall, that range is unacceptable. Many people drive 20 km or more to work: if you use a third of the range on the way to work, and another third on the way back, are you going to be happy about not being able to get to and from robotics in the evening?

How will the battery will perform over its lifetime? What is the battery's lifetime? I don't want to pay replacement costs, unless it's very cheap. And I don't want to find myself with 25% less range in three years.

And is the top speed a governed speed that it can reach easily, or is it a drag- or powertrain-limited speed that it can barely manage? Traffic often travels at 130 km/h on major highways in Southern Ontario. 100 km/h must be reachable within about 20 s, for it to be safely driveable on the highway, given the length of most acceleration lanes.

All of these things can be compromised to some degree in the design of the vehicle, but when most, or all of them are sub-par, it's not going to be acceptable to anyone.

Fortunately, none of the electric vehicles currently marketed suffer from so many deficiencies. If a 60 km range is advertised, you'll get a subcompact city car, or perhaps a souped-up golf cart ("NEV"). It won't cost $50 000.

By the way, the solar angle is a dead end, at least for a car that needs to be used as a daily driver. What do you do when there's a centimetre of ice and snow on the car? Scrape the precious solar cells? Use more energy to defrost them? What happens when it's cloudy, or it's night? Purpose-built solar racecars exist that can reach 120 km/h, and sustain that speed in continuous sunshine. But they're worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, and seat one (small) person in a reclining position with virtually no visibility, no cargo capacity, no amenities and minimal crash protection. (The driver of the University of Toronto's solar car team was killed in a road accident a few years ago: he stood no chance against the two-tonne minivan that destroyed the solar car.)

The costs and red tape of getting a car certified by transport canada by the way make it nearly impossible to get any car produced by a small company certified, I can't remember the name of the company but it's in don mills and they have a little green battery powered car, that's quite nice actually but they have been stuck for at least 3 years as it's not legal for the road...

[Mark Rozitis]

No way.

The main factor is the price point: it's nice to be nice to the environment, but not at a premium of tens of thousands of dollars. I could have a bicycle (a moderately-nice one), an efficient-but-tiny subcompact (like a Hyundai Accent) and an efficient-but-full-sized sedan (maybe a base-model Nissan Altima) for that price, all bought new. That way, I could balance environmental impact versus practical needs. Or, if I felt especially philanthropic, I could put the spare tens of thousands to something more useful toward environmental protection.

Also, you haven't specified how much energy it consumes. If I get my energy from a coal-fired generating station, 200 km away, are the emissions and transmission losses on par with the efficiencies and emissions associated with operating a conventional engine? If not, then it's very difficult to make the case that the vehicle is environmentally-friendly at all.

And how long does it take to charge it? If it's a 30-minute deal when supplied from a special high-current charging station, then the range may be marginally acceptable for short trips between charge points. (Hopefully I would get one of these charge points installed for free, with electrical service upgrades as necessary, upon purchasing the car.) But if it needs to stay overnight, plugged into the wall, that range is unacceptable. Many people drive 20 km or more to work: if you use a third of the range on the way to work, and another third on the way back, are you going to be happy about not being able to get to and from robotics in the evening?

How will the battery will perform over its lifetime? What is the battery's lifetime? I don't want to pay replacement costs, unless it's very cheap. And I don't want to find myself with 25% less range in three years.

And is the top speed a governed speed that it can reach easily, or is it a drag- or powertrain-limited speed that it can barely manage? Traffic often travels at 130 km/h on major highways in Southern Ontario. 100 km/h must be reachable within about 20 s, for it to be safely driveable on the highway, given the length of most acceleration lanes.

All of these things can be compromised to some degree in the design of the vehicle, but when most, or all of them are sub-par, it's not going to be acceptable to anyone.

Fortunately, none of the electric vehicles currently marketed suffer from so many deficiencies. If a 60 km range is advertised, you'll get a subcompact city car, or perhaps a souped-up golf cart ("NEV"). It won't cost $50 000.

By the way, the solar angle is a dead end, at least for a car that needs to be used as a daily driver. What do you do when there's a centimetre of ice and snow on the car? Scrape the precious solar cells? Use more energy to defrost them? What happens when it's cloudy, or it's night? Purpose-built solar racecars exist that can reach 120 km/h, and sustain that speed in continuous sunshine. But they're worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, and seat one (small) person in a reclining position with virtually no visibility, no cargo capacity, no amenities and minimal crash protection. (The driver of the University of Toronto's solar car team was killed in a road accident a few years ago: he stood no chance against the two-tonne minivan that destroyed the solar car.)

here is the link to the electric car company in Toronto, I was the camera guy on one of the stories and I actually liked this little car.....it's still not on the road.....
http://www.zenncars.com/

http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/story.html?id=c4544f6a-be67-4073-9042-4203b1820b18&p=2

http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/story.html?id=c4544f6a-be67-4073-9042-4203b1820b18

http://www.canada.com/coquitlamnow/news/artsandentertainment/story.html?id=8ab19541-a06b-45d0-8a54-32da8fe3ceeb&k=91135

[usbcd36]

No.

True, I'd save a lot of money on fuel, but there are better ways stop buying gasoline altogether. For example, the Honda Civic GX runs on natural gas, the range is more than five times of your proposed electric car, and the cost is just over half as much (including the refueling station). I don't think people don't buy electric cars because they're electric; I think people don't buy electric cars because the switch to an electric car makes some things difficult and other things (like long trips) impossible.

[sanddrag]

60km range, 120kph top speed, and $50,000?. Absolutely not. Quadruple the range, bump the top speed to 135 kph, and chop the price in 3, then maybe I'd consider buying it. These are the very reasons electric cars have not yet succeeded. For the amount of energy you get out of it, gasoline is still relatively cheap. You can go buy a brand new car for <$20,000, that will get 30 mpg. You can get a used one for half. Why would you drop $50,000 on a car with very limited range, uncertainty of getting places (if it is dead), and can't cruise with some of the faster traffic around here? Not gonna happen.

Personally, I drive 75 miles per day, four days per week, in a vehicle that gets 14.5 mpg. Smart? Not exactly, but look at the alternative. Yes, I'm spending $400 per month on gas, but it would cost me over 1.5x that to live closer to school. Say I got a vehicle that got twice the gas mileage, so I saved $200 per month. There's no way a person can pay for and insure a vehicle for only $200 per month. What's a person to do? It would take a VERY long time to get your money back to drop $50,000, or even $30,000 on a car, when you already have a car. Until gas is $10 per gallon or electric cars drop sub-$20k, the electric car will hardly get a second look.

I'm not terribly confident in the near future of hybrid technology either. GM next year will be releasing a hybrid (wait for it.....) Yukon. I mean seriously, what are they thinking? It costs like another $15,000+ over a regular Yukon, has a gigantic 6L engine still, and only gets another 5mpg. The point is? :confused:

At this point, there are only three options as I see it. 1. Eat the cost (bad for saving for retirement). 2. Don't drive. Yeah right. 3. Buy an old diesel Mercedes and visit the back door of your favorite restaurant when your tank gets low.

I like option 3. :) But, most of us will be on option 1 for quite some time, because our lifestyles and locations, require us to drive, and we currently haven't the money to change our lifestyles or locations. I'd conjecture that most of the country has a fair amount of debt, and simply cannot move their home or purchase a different vehicle, because either of those still costs more than the rising price of gas.

On a related note, I'm finding it more and more difficult for people to start a career and make significant progress toward owning a home and retiring at a decent age in the US. Saving in this day and age is downright difficult when you have to spend over half of your yearly income just to put a roof over your head, and then you need to eat, and drive, and maybe pay for a kid too. What's left?

[artdutra04]

I would not get the car table (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quHzOK9chx8) you described.

But if you changed the specs to 200+ mile range, 135 mph max speed, and 0-60 acceleration in under 4 seconds, then I'd get one if I had that kind of cash (http://www.teslamotors.com/). But I don't, so until they come out with a more affordable model in the coming decade, the closest I'll get to an electric car is my i180 Segway. ;)

Edit:
I'm not terribly confident in the near future of hybrid technology either. GM next year will be releasing a hybrid (wait for it.....) Yukon. I mean seriously, what are they thinking? It costs like another $15,000+ over a regular Yukon, has a gigantic 6L engine still, and only gets another 5mpg. The point is?It's the same point as the people who order super-size value means at fast food chains with a Diet Coke.

It's just to artificially give them the warm and fuzzies that they did something good.

(By no means am I against hybrid or electric cars, it's just that a hybrid Yukon seems pointless. You can get a smaller (and cheaper) car and get the same improvement in gas mileage).

[Tristan Lall]

This GM documentary video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3345478756207191901) from c. 1969 has some pretty interesting descriptions of all sorts of alternative power sources under consideration at the time. You'll notice that some of these designs have been in continuous development for the last 40 years, and still aren't ready for prime time.

[Mark Rozitis]

60km range, 120kph top speed, and $50,000?. Absolutely not. Quadruple the range, bump the top speed to 135 kph, and chop the price in 3, then maybe I'd consider buying it. These are the very reasons electric cars have not yet succeeded. For the amount of energy you get out of it, gasoline is still relatively cheap. You can go buy a brand new car for <$20,000, that will get 30 mpg. You can get a used one for half. Why would you drop $50,000 on a car with very limited range, uncertainty of getting places (if it is dead), and can't cruise with some of the faster traffic around here? Not gonna happen.

Personally, I drive 75 miles per day, four days per week, in a vehicle that gets 14.5 mpg. Smart? Not exactly, but look at the alternative. Yes, I'm spending $400 per month on gas, but it would cost me over 1.5x that to live closer to school. Say I got a vehicle that got twice the gas mileage, so I saved $200 per month. There's no way a person can pay for and insure a vehicle for only $200 per month. What's a person to do? It would take a VERY long time to get your money back to drop $50,000, or even $30,000 on a car, when you already have a car. Until gas is $10 per gallon or electric cars drop sub-$20k, the electric car will hardly get a second look.

I'm not terribly confident in the near future of hybrid technology either. GM next year will be releasing a hybrid (wait for it.....) Yukon. I mean seriously, what are they thinking? It costs like another $15,000+ over a regular Yukon, has a gigantic 6L engine still, and only gets another 5mpg. The point is? :confused:

At this point, there are only three options as I see it. 1. Eat the cost (bad for saving for retirement). 2. Don't drive. Yeah right. 3. Buy an old diesel Mercedes and visit the back door of your favorite restaurant when your tank gets low.

I like option 3. :) But, most of us will be on option 1 for quite some time, because our lifestyles and locations, require us to drive, and we currently haven't the money to change our lifestyles or locations. I'd conjecture that most of the country has a fair amount of debt, and simply cannot move their home or purchase a different vehicle, because either of those still costs more than the rising price of gas.

On a related note, I'm finding it more and more difficult for people to start a career and make significant progress toward owning a home and retiring at a decent age in the US. Saving in this day and age is downright difficult when you have to spend over half of your yearly income just to put a roof over your head, and then you need to eat, and drive, and maybe pay for a kid too. What's left?

There was just a report in a local newspaper here that the Toronto Tranist commission (TTC) is only saving 5-10% on diesel with all those new hydrbid electric buses, I have a feeling that with the larger vehicles the hybrid doesnt really help much, with the small/light car light the prius it seems to have more chance to actually save on gas.

[Cory]

Absolutely not, if it only went 60 km on a charge.

You could buy a cheap compact car for ~$20,000 and spend $30,000 on it's gas for the next ~10+ years

[Mark Rozitis]

This GM documentary video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3345478756207191901) from c. 1969 has some pretty interesting descriptions of all sorts of alternative power sources under consideration at the time. You'll notice that some of these designs have been in continuous development for the last 40 years, and still aren't ready for prime time.

Wow! isn't that interesting?, wonder what the gas price was back then in 1969?

One thing for sure is once it goes above $1.50/litre towards $2.00/litre which will be soon at the rate oil is rising our lives will change big time, we will all be driving scooters, I'd go get that class M upgrade now to you're licence. It's not just how high but how fast the prices are rising, wages just can't keep up.

I just got rid of my big 8 cyl truck and got a 2.8L chev colorado and my fuel bill is 50% less but once we are at $1.50 or higher it will once again be unaffordable and I use the vehicle for business.

I'd say we are ina full blown state of emergency when it comes to energy costs in north america and even all the so-called experts have been wrong and know have no clue what they are talking about as even they admit we are in uncharted waters.

One only has to look at this victoria day long weekend, I have worked in news doe 12 years and sure the weather is a bit cool this weekend but honestly I have never seen this few cars on the road and boats on the water, I still have a hard time believing it's the holiday weekend.

People are obviously just using the car for whats really necessary.

I was at the OPP safety blitz on the 400 all day Friday and the cops with 30 years on the force where telling me they have never seen anything like this....even in pouring rain there was more traffic than this weekend.

My only question is how bad is it going to get? if gas/oil is staying this high during a recession what will it rise to once our economy picks up again?

[artdutra04]

My only question is how bad is it going to get? if gas/oil is staying this high during a recession what will it rise to once our economy picks up again?It's not just the Western economy that will dictate the price of gas in the future, it's the entire world economy. India and China - both with over a billion people each - are surging out of third world status, and that means millions and millions of more cars on their roads.

Unless there is a miraculous discovery of an enormous (and I mean like Saudi Arabia huge) oil reserve, the supply of oil just won't be able to keep up with the demand to get the price of gas cheap again. And even if we did find such a huge reserve, the environmental implications of adding all that carbon dioxide to the atmosphere certainly wouldn't help the global warming situation.

The solution(s) for the twenty-first century certainly won't be as easy as the "just drill more wells!" philosophy of the twentieth.

[Generalx5]

Electrical energy is clean and produces no carbon dioxide, yes the power plants may be using coal, but if the automobile company devoted money into solar and wind energy to undo the carbon dioxide production at another power plant, would this be fair to say that the energy on these vehicles are from a clean source?

[GaryVoshol]

I'd say we are ina full blown state of emergency when it comes to energy costs in north america Which Europe has coped with for how many years now, with their high taxes?

Back on topic, our electricity went out unexpectedly this week for about 12 hours. Yesterday and last night thousands in SE Mich lost power due to high winds. How are you going to charge your car when the electricity grid fails?

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Im just courious....since, electric vehicles have been showing up, but didnt sell very nicely. Some say that they were made to look bad so they dont sell well. Others say that the oil industry puressures the car manufactures to halt research on electrics...

I am thinking that with the current cost of gas, $4.00/gal in Chicago suburbs, the oil industry would be losing their hold on car production. I might look into an electric car for work. There are a lot of factors to consider since I live in a cold climate and have a 50 mile round trip to work. I think we are all going to have to look into alternative vehicles very soon.

[acdcfan259]

I'm in favor of pushing the technology forward and going forward with electric cars. But with how they operate right now, they're not worth it.

[Billfred]

I'm not terribly confident in the near future of hybrid technology either. GM next year will be releasing a hybrid (wait for it.....) Yukon. I mean seriously, what are they thinking? It costs like another $15,000+ over a regular Yukon, has a gigantic 6L engine still, and only gets another 5mpg. The point is? :confused:

(Full disclosure: I now work for the GMC dealership whose vehicles are linked below.)

Actually, the Yukon Hybrid is available right now; there were two on our lot when I left on Friday. Further, the EPA figures show the hybrid getting 21 city/22 highway, while a standard Yukon gets 14/19. That's an appreciable swing.

Also, since the $15,000 figure seemed high, I dug a little deeper. There's one at work for $53,955 (http://jim-hudson-pontiac-gmc-saab.ebizautos.com/detail-2008-gmc-yukon-hybrid-2651499.html), while a Yukon with roughly similar equipment is $45,981 (http://jim-hudson-pontiac-gmc-saab.ebizautos.com/detail-2008-gmc-yukon-slt-2696683.html)--that's a gap of roughly $8,000.

Now, does my CR-V get better mileage than a Yukon Hybrid? In most cases, yes. Will a Yukon Hybrid haul more cargo than my CR-V? Absolutely. If I had an appreciable need for a full-size SUV, I'd consider it. Since I don't have a need for a full-size SUV, I'm content just photographing it.

As for the original topic, 60 km is not enough range for my needs. (My present daily round-trip commute is closer to 45 or 50 miles, about 50% more than this EV can put out.) $50,000 is also priced out of my reach, especially when the Chevy Volt is currently targeted to hit around $30,000 when it goes on sale in 2010 and the Prius starts around $21,100. I'd pass.

[kramarczyk]

60 km/ charge = 37.5 mi/charge... Nope, it won't do round trip to the shop. And even if it did, the charge time would probably get me during build season.

Of course, there could be an upside to the forced time at home... ;)

[Gdeaver]

When looking at all electric vehicles, most tend to not look at the over all system. If you include the losses at the power plant, electric transmission, and charging losses, electric vehicles are not very attractive from an over all perspective. Their environmental impact is very good at the localized level, but their over all environmental impact is not as attractive.
The internal combustion engine is the prime mover of our society. Hybrids try to increase the efficiency of the internal combustion engine. The internal combustion engine has terrible thermal efficiency. BMW has developed a 2 stage sterling engine add on that greatly improves the thermal efficiency of the internal combustion engine. Now if you could rap up a sterling, hybrid into a small light weight cost effective package you might have something. Yes the future engineers have plenty of problems to solve. The impending energy and enviromental crisis makes the mission of FIRST all that more important.

[thefro526]

The only way the vehicle described in the original post would be effective is if it were used for city or local driving only. And even if that was all of the driving you did you'd still need to be bringing in a decent bit of money to afford it. In reality the range isn't bad for most of my family and friends that drive if they were to get one but, the price would alienate a lot of people.

Something else that needs to be factored in is recharge time. I own a 91 Nissan 240sx and it takes about 3 or 4 minutes to fill it's 15 gallon tank. Considering most cars have between a 12-20 gallon tank their refill time should be less than 5 minutes on average. Your electric car would take substantially longer to my knowledge. If you could find a way to charge the battery fully in less than maybe 10 minutes it would become practical. But to my knowledge most electric cars take a few hours or more to fully recharge.

If you had a short range car like the one described that could be recharged quickly <10 minutes then some people who drive less than ~40 miles to work everyday could use them and charge the car at work or at a recharge station. But if you were to have a car with a 200 mile + range you could get away with having a longer recharge time. I know a lot of electric car owners let their cars "sleep" or plug them in to charge at night.

[Koko Ed]

I'd say we are ina full blown state of emergency when it comes to energy costs in north america and even all the so-called experts have been wrong and know have no clue what they are talking about as even they admit we are in uncharted waters.



I saw a story on the CBS news last night where they speculated how the future would be with rising gas prices. How we could have a world where travel becomes far too expensive to drive or fly cross country. Where NASCAR can no longer afford to operate and where people will move back to the cites to save on travel expenses.
That people would have to give up what they do today because it costs too much to live that way. It made me think of what it would be like for FIRST. It would cost way too much for certain teams to travel and the championships would simply be out of the question. It certainly would change my travel schedule to numerous events.

[Billfred]

When looking at all electric vehicles, most tend to not look at the over all system. If you include the losses at the power plant, electric transmission, and charging losses, electric vehicles are not very attractive from an over all perspective. Their environmental impact is very good at the localized level, but their over all environmental impact is not as attractive.Perhaps not, but we can make electricity that uses fewer non-renewable resources than 87 octane does (consider solar, hydroelectric, and wind). If we lose X percent of electricity from a solar farm due to losses in the system, I can live with that--as they once sang on Broadway, the sun'll come out tomorrow. If we lose Y percent of oil, we're out that amount for a few million years.

With time, the systems that get electricity to the outlet will be optimized when it's cheaper for the producers of power to do so than just to generate more raw electricity. What that magic number is will vary from area to area and by method of production.

[Generalx5]

Actually, Im wrong in the first post, the 60Km range is actually from the onboard backup battery system that isnt interchangable, this battery is the one that you actually plug in to charge at night. The main batteries are actually individual modules that you can exchange at power stations.

The theory is that instead of having gas stations, there will be a charge station, batteries stored on charging racks ready to go. You may just one day pull into a charging station and exchange a battery or two in about two minuts and be on your way. Ofcourse there will be ways to make these batteries safe, and fraud proof. These are public batteries and will be constantly replaced by the Manufacture. Well assuming that the life of the tipical battery is 2100 charges(is really way more but kept low to provide a minimum kilowatt output), and each battery is just under lets say $1800at the time of introduction to the market. You would be paying something like a dollar per charge for each battery module, the extra money would be associated to the cost of the battery and energy cost for charging. The vehicle range is dependant on Load and how many battery modules the vehicle can carry. So It seems that this is a better solution than filling tanks full for at costs much higher/litre.

[Billfred]

Actually, Im wrong in the first post, the 60Km range is actually from the onboard backup battery system that isnt interchangable, this battery is the one that you actually plug in to charge at night. The main batteries are actually individual modules that you can exchange at power stations.

The theory is that instead of having gas stations, there will be a charge station, batteries stored on charging racks ready to go. You may just one day pull into a charging station and exchange a battery or two in about two minuts and be on your way. Ofcourse there will be ways to make these batteries safe, and fraud proof. These are public batteries and will be constantly replaced by the Manufacture. Well assuming that the life of the tipical battery is 2100 charges(is really way more but kept low to provide a minimum kilowatt output), and each battery is just under lets say $1800at the time of introduction to the market. You would be paying something like a dollar per charge for each battery module, the extra money would be associated to the cost of the battery and energy cost for charging. The vehicle range is dependant on Load and how many battery modules the vehicle can carry. So It seems that this is a better solution than filling tanks full for at costs much higher/litre.
Unless these swappable batteries have far greater range, I still wouldn't be sold. Sure, I can extend my range to make a jaunt down to Florida, but I would be stopping nearly ten times as often. While I enjoy a good stretch break as much as the next guy, stopping every half-hour or so is excessive.

Further, the gas station issue is a paradox. Consumers won't buy the car unless the batteries are readily (and I mean readily) available, but gas stations won't stock the batteries unless there's a solid business case for them (which generally implies a measure of demand from consumers).

[Protronie]

Short answer... no f'ing way. $50 grand thats a lot of money for a toy car which is just what these electric cars are. Toys for tree huggers that buy into all this global warming propaganda.

My question for all these folks that think they keep the environment clean by buying these electric toys....

1. whats gonna happen to the batteries when they need replacing?
2. where you think the electric comes from that charges your battery over night?

No way out of it... mankind will have a impact and will leave some sort of mess behind. For me... I'll try not to leave too much rubber on the road when my V-8 stretches its muscles. ;)

[Tristan Lall]

The theory is that instead of having gas stations, there will be a charge station, batteries stored on charging racks ready to go. You may just one day pull into a charging station and exchange a battery or two in about two minuts and be on your way. Ofcourse there will be ways to make these batteries safe, and fraud proof. These are public batteries and will be constantly replaced by the Manufacture. Well assuming that the life of the tipical battery is 2100 charges(is really way more but kept low to provide a minimum kilowatt output), and each battery is just under lets say $1800at the time of introduction to the market. You would be paying something like a dollar per charge for each battery module, the extra money would be associated to the cost of the battery and energy cost for charging. The vehicle range is dependant on Load and how many battery modules the vehicle can carry. So It seems that this is a better solution than filling tanks full for at costs much higher/litre.How much does it cost the "gas" station to keep inventory? Since the energy density within the battery is worse than that of gasoline, it stands to reason that the batteries are going to take up more space, and be harder to deliver to the station, than an equivalent quantity of fuel.

What happens if I pay for the battery, and don't return it? Do I need to put down a deposit, or something like that? What happens if I damage the pack, but subtly, so that you don't know that anything was wrong (until someone's car dies)? (Basically, it's like letting some random person decide whether or not to taint all the fuel that goes into your car with something that will ruin it, like nitromethane or corn syrup.) I know you said "fraud proof", but I'm wondering how you would pull it off. Some protection against tampering is necessary in order for that business model to succeed, and it's equally important that that protection is cost-effective.

Are you sure about the number of charges? That sounds pretty high, especially assuming that it will be probably be fully discharged, and fully recharged every time.

[Jay H 237]

60 km/ charge = 37.5 mi/charge... Nope, it won't do round trip to the shop. And even if it did, the charge time would probably get me during build season.


Bingo! I wouldn't be interested in it either. I drive 60 miles atleast a day and that car is only good for that or maybe a little more. Even with that range there's no way for me to plug it in at work to even recharge it if I wanted.

Currently vehicles that are strictly electric powered are limited to small distances so even those that buy them aren't making much of an impact to help the enviroment at all.


(I should mention my commuter car is a 4 cyl (2.2) Camry that now costs me $60 or so to fill the tank. Overall not bad as when you factor all the costs in besides the gas like the low personal property tax and having only liability on it as it's 11 years old (1997 model) all paid for and has been for a few years now. If the car was new then I'd get hit on the property tax and be also required to have collision and comprehensive on it too if leased or making payments. You have to weigh everything when deciding if it's worth it or not to switch to another vehicle, same as to what Sanddrag was referring too.)

[artdutra04]

The theory is that instead of having gas stations, there will be a charge station, batteries stored on charging racks ready to go. You may just one day pull into a charging station and exchange a battery or two in about two minuts and be on your way.I don't think you can just "exchange a battery or two" capable of powering a car for quite a distance without first eating an enormous amount of spinach (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popeye). Even if they were lithium-based, batteries capable of powering a car will most likely weigh on the order of a few hundred pounds.

The only way in which electric cars will be successful and gain a sizable market share is when they cost less than $30,000 and have a 200+ mile range per charge cycle. A lot of people own more than one car, and I'm sure these would be the kind of people who would buy an electric car as their second/commuting car.

Now if we want the electric car to be able to take over the primary car role, we need to get super-capacitor technology cheap enough for mass production in cars. (Batteries don't have high enough energy density, and the whole idea of using hydrogen fuel cells to power cars is a boondoggle). But with super-capacitors, we can have electric cars that can recharge in only a few minutes - literally just as fast as refilling the tank.

The technology for this already exists. In Shanghai, China, there are two bus routes which use electric super-capacitor buses. The buses are electric, and at every bus stop an "electric umbrella" recharges the super-capacitors on the bus. Now there is still a lot of progress to be made in the area of super-capacitors, but the trends so far are promising.

As long as there are sufficient recharging facilities available, using an electric super-capacitor car would be no different than driving an internal combustion one. With the price of gas forever stuck on the upward spiral, renewable energy sources slowly becoming more widespread, and with environmental sustainability increasing in importance, super-capacitor technology is one way which we can have fully electric cars without sacrificing features we've grown accustomed to having.

[Generalx5]

Electrics arent easy to start with, but once it gets on a roll, it is easy to say that these technologies are readily available. Gasoline has has a long history, it isnt easy to make either, it requires the process of refining and trucking from the plant to stations abroad. So with a little time, I dont think batteries are going to be a pain. There are ways to recycle batteries such as li_ion batts. We just have to get it started.

[kE7JLM]

... has a range of 60km per charge. ...
You are right about most facts but you you cut the range short. Eletric Cars today call go up to 300 miles.
Here is a quote from the tesla site -
"It's light, durable, recyclable, and it is capable of delivering enough power to accelerate the Tesla Roadster from 0 to 60 mph in under 4 seconds. Meanwhile, the battery stores enough energy for the vehicle to travel about 220 miles without recharging, something no other production electric vehicle in history can claim."


Here is the site - http://www.teslamotors.com/

Truely is ground breaking, altouth this one may break the 50k, the same company will be relesing a sedan sytle car that is cheaper and will have the same range just a slower acceleration.

On a side note, if you bought an eletric car for 50k and it only goes 60km, you got ripped off.

[Chris_Elston]

Now, does my CR-V get better mileage than a Yukon Hybrid? In most cases, yes. Will a Yukon Hybrid haul more cargo than my CR-V? Absolutely. If I had an appreciable need for a full-size SUV, I'd consider it. Since I don't have a need for a full-size SUV, I'm content just photographing it.

Several people already hit on this, but I believe the same. Our way of living will more than likely change. SUV's and "recreational" life will cease to exist at the current climb of gas prices. If you look at oil futures.....

"some link I found using google"
http://www.wtrg.com/daily/crudeoilprice.html

We are buying gas at the pump when oil was $100-$110 a barrel prices. Oil futures show $126, that means gas prices WILL GO UP.

I can't justify a truck anymore or SUV for that matter. I won't be owning an RV, boat, or anything like that. Pretty soon if I need anything hauled like "cargo" I'll be farming it out to some new businesses in town "We Haul Your Cargo, Inc."

PS, don't forget about.
http://www.aptera.com/

On a side note, why on earth do electric cars have to be butt ugly? Now Telsa Motors got it right, but geez, $100K??? wow... not in my price range.

I'll buy a Toyota Prius, but not for the LOOKS. My family and friends call it the "clown" car. I have to agree, but I'll give up styling to save some money at the pump. Every other electric car I've seen looks "funny" to me....including "Smart Car" http://www.smartusa.com/

I'm looking into motorcycles now to get back and forth to work. Some Honda bikes get 140 MPG for a 250 cc.

[falconmaster]

Just want to add more info the the knowledge base.
There is a lot of misinformation out there due to the auto and oil industry. GM bought all the new battery technology. they even got rid of their car they made that worked too well. You need to see Who Killed The Electric Car
http://www.sonyclassics.com/whokilledtheelectriccar/
We used to convert full sized internal combustion cars to electric for $5000.00 dollars and they would go 70 to 90 miles at 55mph on golf cart batteries! Nothing like they have now. It cost about 1 to 2 cents per mile. These were cars that were never meant to be electric in the first place. This is first hand experience, electric cars work and they are not expensive. They just need to have even footing in the auto industry.
http://www.phxhs.k12.az.us/education/components/scrapbook/default.php?sectiondetailid=27984
We eventually had cars that could go 100mph!
Here is a video of one of our cars
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4002689431436364669

Here is another video of our cars
http://www.phxhs.k12.az.us/education/components/scrapbook/default.php?sectiondetailid=41964
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7296513119287131358

Ford told the dealers in AZ no to help any schools make any more cars because we were making them look bad.
Here are two companies that are developing modern electric cars and the price could drop if they were mass produced. This would make the price of the vehicles comparable to current vehicles.
AC Propulsion
http://www.acpropulsion.com/
http://www.acpropulsion.com/ebox/pricing.htm
http://www.acpropulsion.com/ebox/media.htm
http://www.stefanoparis.com/piaev/acpropulsion/eBox/2006.08.18eBox/eBoxFirstPeekMov.html
The sports car version
http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero/
Video gallery
http://www.acpropulsion.com/vehicles/gallery.htm

Tesla Motors
http://www.teslamotors.com/

Remember these are not mass produced in any numbers even approaching a fraction of any car built by the big auto companies. If they were the price would be much much less. They new electric car companies also picked a battery platform that the auto industry could not buy out. Lithium Polymer like they use in portable electronic devices, like cell phones and lap tops.

Hope this info helps out the argument. Electric cars are more than capable to replace 90 percent of all driving needs and at a cost that is no more than traditional automobiles.

[Protronie]

The day someone builds a electric car that looks like a real car, can travel at least 400 miles @ 70 MPH while running a/c, lights, stereo, and all the rest of the toys my gas burner has and can be recharged as easy and quick as pulling up to a pump and filling the tank then come talk to me... otherwise get out of my way or I blow your electric whinny-wagon off the road.

When we run out of gas I'll start making moonshine and burn that in my gas burner.

-p :cool: (proud owner of the fastest Duster in NC)

[Mark Rozitis]

Several people already hit on this, but I believe the same. Our way of living will more than likely change. SUV's and "recreational" life will cease to exist at the current climb of gas prices. If you look at oil futures.....

"some link I found using google"
http://www.wtrg.com/daily/crudeoilprice.html

We are buying gas at the pump when oil was $100-$110 a barrel prices. Oil futures show $126, that means gas prices WILL GO UP.

I can't justify a truck anymore or SUV for that matter. I won't be owning an RV, boat, or anything like that. Pretty soon if I need anything hauled like "cargo" I'll be farming it out to some new businesses in town "We Haul Your Cargo, Inc."

PS, don't forget about.
http://www.aptera.com/

On a side note, why on earth do electric cars have to be butt ugly? Now Telsa Motors got it right, but geez, $100K??? wow... not in my price range.

I'll buy a Toyota Prius, but not for the LOOKS. My family and friends call it the "clown" car. I have to agree, but I'll give up styling to save some money at the pump. Every other electric car I've seen looks "funny" to me....including "Smart Car" http://www.smartusa.com/

I'm looking into motorcycles now to get back and forth to work. Some Honda bikes get 140 MPG for a 250 cc.

here is another scary but rather realistic look ahead:
http://seekingalpha.com/article/58567-fundamentals-suggest-oil-s-headed-much-higher

You're comments about giving up certain things like recreation involving a motorized vehicle I think are going to become a reality and rather soon for many, I think this is the last year we can carry on business almost as usual...even with small trucks and cars, I just downgraded to a nice small 4 cly truck but already the cost to fill it is getting up there.

Ironicly I was just watching a clip with David Suzuki on the weather network up here and he was saying exactly the same things that within the next five years we will be living, working, playing all within walking distance and that will also help solve the obeseity problem as well in north america.

As for electric cars I think what needs to happen right away is the "oil companies" who run the "gas stations" to get into the battery business as well as sell gas, then the major auto makers need to make electric cars and these gas stations would be swapping out charged batteries for dead ones, instead of buying gas you would by power in the the form of a battery. Just like you exchange near empty propane tanks for full ones.


Keep in mind only the major automakers can get cars certified for the road by the transportation safety board easily so they are going to have to do this.

The oil or energy companies have to come on board as well and once they realize there is big money in it they will.

What scares me is how high prices will go before something happens, keep inm mind new electric cars have to be in all price ranges and available as do the batteries, this won't happen overnight but oil is going only one place and thats up so someone better bet moving on this before we end up in a depression.

[Mark Rozitis]

Just want to add more info the the knowledge base.
There is a lot of misinformation out there due to the auto and oil industry. GM bought all the new battery technology. they even got rid of their car they made that worked too well. You need to see Who Killed The Electric Car
http://www.sonyclassics.com/whokilledtheelectriccar/
We used to convert full sized internal combustion cars to electric for $5000.00 dollars and they would go 70 to 90 miles at 55mph on golf cart batteries! Nothing like they have now. It cost about 1 to 2 cents per mile. These were cars that were never meant to be electric in the first place. This is first hand experience, electric cars work and they are not expensive. They just need to have even footing in the auto industry.
http://www.phxhs.k12.az.us/education/components/scrapbook/default.php?sectiondetailid=27984
We eventually had cars that could go 100mph!
Here is a video of one of our cars
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4002689431436364669

Here is another video of our cars
http://www.phxhs.k12.az.us/education/components/scrapbook/default.php?sectiondetailid=41964
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7296513119287131358

Ford told the dealers in AZ no to help any schools make any more cars because we were making them look bad.
Here are two companies that are developing modern electric cars and the price could drop if they were mass produced. This would make the price of the vehicles comparable to current vehicles.
AC Propulsion
http://www.acpropulsion.com/
http://www.acpropulsion.com/ebox/pricing.htm
http://www.acpropulsion.com/ebox/media.htm
http://www.stefanoparis.com/piaev/acpropulsion/eBox/2006.08.18eBox/eBoxFirstPeekMov.html
The sports car version
http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero/
Video gallery
http://www.acpropulsion.com/vehicles/gallery.htm

Tesla Motors
http://www.teslamotors.com/

Remember these are not mass produced in any numbers even approaching a fraction of any car built by the big auto companies. If they were the price would be much much less. They new electric car companies also picked a battery platform that the auto industry could not buy out. Lithium Polymer like they use in portable electronic devices, like cell phones and lap tops.

Hope this info helps out the argument. Electric cars are more than capable to replace 90 percent of all driving needs and at a cost that is no more than traditional automobiles.

What I am wondering is why the big guys like GM then don't jump on the big money that is there to be made in going electric if they have the technology....only problem I see is how fast they could make them as people would line up to buy them, of course the oil companies would have to also sell batteries etc for fast recharge/go type of setup and like propane or natural gas....good luck finding it at the local gas station, not that many have it so you can't rely on it.

$127+/barrel right now....easy $150 by august, electric cars and trucks better come soon...before we all go under.

[falconmaster]

What I am wondering is why the big guys like GM then don't jump on the big money that is there to be made in going electric if they have the technology....only problem I see is how fast they could make them as people would line up to buy them, of course the oil companies would have to also sell batteries etc for fast recharge/go type of setup and like propane or natural gas....good luck finding it at the local gas station, not that many have it so you can't rely on it.

$127+/barrel right now....easy $150 by august, electric cars and trucks better come soon...before we all go under.

one thing people have to get over is "filling" an electric car with electricity. How long are you parked daily? I'll bet there is an outlet no too far from where you park and the infrastructure is very easy to modify to accommodate this. Here is a picture of some such chargers at LAX when pilots who used GMs EV1 would use the opportunity chargers at the airport. Unlike conventional automobiles, electric cars can charge when parked. You will never have to go to a gas station again!

[falconmaster]

Several people already hit on this, but I believe the same. Our way of living will more than likely change. SUV's and "recreational" life will cease to exist at the current climb of gas prices. If you look at oil futures.....

"some link I found using google"
http://www.wtrg.com/daily/crudeoilprice.html

We are buying gas at the pump when oil was $100-$110 a barrel prices. Oil futures show $126, that means gas prices WILL GO UP.

I can't justify a truck anymore or SUV for that matter. I won't be owning an RV, boat, or anything like that. Pretty soon if I need anything hauled like "cargo" I'll be farming it out to some new businesses in town "We Haul Your Cargo, Inc."

PS, don't forget about.
http://www.aptera.com/

On a side note, why on earth do electric cars have to be butt ugly? Now Telsa Motors got it right, but geez, $100K??? wow... not in my price range.

I'll buy a Toyota Prius, but not for the LOOKS. My family and friends call it the "clown" car. I have to agree, but I'll give up styling to save some money at the pump. Every other electric car I've seen looks "funny" to me....including "Smart Car" http://www.smartusa.com/

I'm looking into motorcycles now to get back and forth to work. Some Honda bikes get 140 MPG for a 250 cc.

Mass production will drop the cost from 100k to 50k and lower. This is the key to all the other cars out there. They make 50,000 of each model, that is how they get the price down. This has never happened with electric cars to date.

[Generalx5]

So here are some things that the people are looking for in an electric car.

-Long range per charge
-Super fast charging
-Has to look like a car, not a golf cart.
-Needs good acceleration
-Needs to be within budget Under $50,000.
-Needs a battery recycling program
-Requires little or less than traditional Vehicles

Please let me know if I've missed anything.

At the moment. I dont think a vehicle with all these factors above can give you something under $50,000.

Gasoline vehicles are very problematic, we were lucky to have 100 years to perfect all its problems, and build addequit infrastructure for them. Electric vehicles dont have 100 years to evolve, so dont be expecting a smooth transition between gas to electric.

From what I already know, if we were dealing with Li-Ion batteries, there wouldnt be much of an environmental issue, its the lead acid batteries that require proper disposal. And im sure, there will be more and more solar and wind as well as hydro electricity power plants instead of coal plants in the near future. The reason for owning an electric is not only because of fuel costs, but also because of our increase production of carbon dioxide.

Planes would need a solution too......Planes are a huge producer of CO2.

[GaryVoshol]

Gas prices in Europe have been high for decades, and they don't have a huge electric car population or supporting infrastructure. I realize there are differences between Europe and North America - for example distances are much shorter in Europe and there is better public transportation. But the European makers haven't gone into electric on a large scale. Maybe even at the prices of their fuel - until recently at least $5.00 per gallon, higher in many countries - electric vehicles still don't make economic sense.

Cars that can burn E85 ethanol have been available from major American manufacturers for at least 15 years. Before a year ago, where could you find a gas station that had an E85 pump? I don't think the stations will be in a hurry to install swap-n-charge battery systems.

Massive replacement of gasoline vehicles with electrics would cause huge burdens on the existing electric grid. People claim the primary charging would be done overnight. In reality, you'd come home from work and plug in the car - at the same time everyone else is coming home and turning on appliances and lights, and air conditioning load is peaking. You wouldn't wait until bedtime to plug in the car - at least not after the first time you woke up at 3:00 am and had to go out because you forgot to plug in earlier. Or even worse, forgot completely and had to call the boss and explain why you'd be late.

[JoeXIII'007]

Electric Vehicles:
not in favor nor in complete disapproval.
I am more in favor of a massive implementation of a more fuel efficient/electric(efficient?) vehicle per traveler. (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?p=749723#post749723)

2 cents...
-Joe

[Rick TYler]

I'm not terribly confident in the near future of hybrid technology either. GM next year will be releasing a hybrid (wait for it.....) Yukon. I mean seriously, what are they thinking? It costs like another $15,000+ over a regular Yukon, has a gigantic 6L engine still, and only gets another 5mpg. The point is? :confused:

There is so much misinformation about electric and hybrid vehicles floating around I almost feel guilty about this. The Yukon is built on GM's full-size truck chassis, which also gets hybrid power in 2009. Working people need trucks, and the market for a pickup with great mileage is probably two to four times larger than that of big SUVs. The Yukon gets the hybrid powerplant because it's the cousin of the pickup, and was a big-bucks luxury-SUV platform to launch the new powertrain.

I spent five minutes Googling on this, and found real-world mileage tests (as opposed to the artificial EPA measures) of around 21 MPG for the hybrid and 14 for the gas engine. That's a 50% improvement -- for a vehicle that can still hold eight people and tow a 6,000 pound trailer. Try that in a Prius.

The price differential between a hybrid Yukon and a similarly-equipped gas Yukon is about $4,000. With gas at $4 a gallon, the Yukon might be one of the rarest of all vehicles -- a hybrid that makes economic sense. With a one-third reduction in fuel costs, a Yukon could pay for the "hybrid penalty" in 40,000 miles.

[Chris_Elston]

"some link I found using google"
http://www.wtrg.com/daily/crudeoilprice.html

We are buying gas at the pump when oil was $100-$110 a barrel prices. Oil futures show $126, that means gas prices WILL GO UP.

Oil Futures up to $133 a barrel for July oil deliveries....sigh...

Wednesday, May 21, 2008: NYMEX West Texas Intermediate Crude Oil for July delivery closed up $4.19 at $133.17 per barrel.

Sign me up for that electric car.

[Protronie]

Wow... that hybrid Yukon is one I would be interested in.
Another vehicle that I'm really interested in is the Ford Escape hybrid. In fact I've been pushing for my employer to buy a few hundred of them. Or at least buy my division a few dozen. Last month gas bill was $39,870 :eek:

I believe the hybrids make more sense than the pure electric vehicles.
I have yet to hear what people would do about the demands to the power grid if electric vehicles became mainstream. All them batteries being charged up got to get their power from somewhere.
If they started building today (fat chance) it would be 10 years before a new nuclear power plant came on the grid.

Slightly off topic but interesting still is the Green Goat project (http://www.railindustry.com/coverage/2002/2002g02a.html) A small company in BC is converting old diesel switch engines to hybrids. UP & BSNF both have orders for more of them. :)

-p :cool:

[Generalx5]

I just got back from a trip to Shanghai. Ive never been so fast in my entire life, that is on the ground at least. The object I am talking about is not a car, but a maglev. I was sitting on a train at 430km/h, never have I been so fast, so close to the ground. I like the idea of electric powered everything...:yikes:

[Adam Y.]

Just want to add more info the the knowledge base.
There is a lot of misinformation out there due to the auto and oil industry. GM bought all the new battery technology. they even got rid of their car they made that worked too well. You need to see Who Killed The Electric Car
http://www.sonyclassics.com/whokilledtheelectriccar/
We used to convert full sized internal combustion cars to electric for $5000.00 dollars and they would go 70 to 90 miles at 55mph on golf cart batteries! Nothing like they have now. It cost about 1 to 2 cents per mile. These were cars that were never meant to be electric in the first place. This is first hand experience, electric cars work and they are not expensive. They just need to have even footing in the auto industry.
http://www.phxhs.k12.az.us/education/components/scrapbook/default.php?sectiondetailid=27984
We eventually had cars that could go 100mph!
Here is a video of one of our cars
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4002689431436364669

Here is another video of our cars
http://www.phxhs.k12.az.us/education/components/scrapbook/default.php?sectiondetailid=41964
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7296513119287131358

Ford told the dealers in AZ no to help any schools make any more cars because we were making them look bad.
Here are two companies that are developing modern electric cars and the price could drop if they were mass produced. This would make the price of the vehicles comparable to current vehicles.
AC Propulsion
http://www.acpropulsion.com/
http://www.acpropulsion.com/ebox/pricing.htm
http://www.acpropulsion.com/ebox/media.htm
http://www.stefanoparis.com/piaev/acpropulsion/eBox/2006.08.18eBox/eBoxFirstPeekMov.html
The sports car version
http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero/
Video gallery
http://www.acpropulsion.com/vehicles/gallery.htm

Tesla Motors
http://www.teslamotors.com/

Remember these are not mass produced in any numbers even approaching a fraction of any car built by the big auto companies. If they were the price would be much much less. They new electric car companies also picked a battery platform that the auto industry could not buy out. Lithium Polymer like they use in portable electronic devices, like cell phones and lap tops.

Hope this info helps out the argument. Electric cars are more than capable to replace 90 percent of all driving needs and at a cost that is no more than traditional automobiles.
I don't think I've ever read something so factually wrong in my life. What you call "works" is what most sane engineers would call horrible. There are still way too many problems that makes what your saying a pipe dream.
They new electric car companies also picked a battery platform that the auto industry could not buy out. Lithium Polymer like they use in portable electronic devices, like cell phones and lap tops.
That's not the reason why. Lithium Ion battery packs would be the right choice even if the auto industry owned the patents to them. They are more suitable for the application minus the whole blowing up part. Though NIMH batteries and Lithium Ion batteries still are not the ideal battery because most people don't want to sit around waiting for their car to recharge.

[Mark Rozitis]

Electrical energy is clean and produces no carbon dioxide, yes the power plants may be using coal, but if the automobile company devoted money into solar and wind energy to undo the carbon dioxide production at another power plant, would this be fair to say that the energy on these vehicles are from a clean source?

http://www.chevrolet.com/electriccar/articles/index.jsp?id=1

GM just announced it is closing four plants including the truck plant in Oshawa ontario that makes the big trucks that no one can afford to drive even if given one for free but this Chev Volt might just be the next big thing and beat hybrid right out of business, this sounds really good, run on battery and when the battery runs down the engine drives the car and charges the battery and when at home just plug it in to charge.....that is going to be the next big thing I'm sure.

I was just covering an event in Toronto, some green tree hugging event and the City of Toronto had one of these cars on display.

Now if GM and others use the same technology to make small/medium trucks as well that would be even better.

I just got lucky, I was able to find a Chev Colorado 4 cyl 2.8 4x4 and get rid of my big GMC 2500 and at today's fuel prices and the driving I do in the business I would be into $145/day in fuel.

I am still working at trying to make everything fit and need to figure out how to build and design some better compartments, cable reels and stuff all in the little truck ( I am a news camera guy), but I love this truck...and the lower gas bills.

If gas goes to $1.50 or $2.00/litre I will be in trouble again.

m

[Mark Rozitis]

Actually, Im wrong in the first post, the 60Km range is actually from the onboard backup battery system that isnt interchangable, this battery is the one that you actually plug in to charge at night. The main batteries are actually individual modules that you can exchange at power stations.

The theory is that instead of having gas stations, there will be a charge station, batteries stored on charging racks ready to go. You may just one day pull into a charging station and exchange a battery or two in about two minuts and be on your way. Ofcourse there will be ways to make these batteries safe, and fraud proof. These are public batteries and will be constantly replaced by the Manufacture. Well assuming that the life of the tipical battery is 2100 charges(is really way more but kept low to provide a minimum kilowatt output), and each battery is just under lets say $1800at the time of introduction to the market. You would be paying something like a dollar per charge for each battery module, the extra money would be associated to the cost of the battery and energy cost for charging. The vehicle range is dependant on Load and how many battery modules the vehicle can carry. So It seems that this is a better solution than filling tanks full for at costs much higher/litre.

That was my idea! I remember posting somewhere that the one way electric would work is if "gas" or future "energy" stations had swappable batteries just like they have BBQ propane tanks here, you bring the empty tank, toss it in the cage, grab a full one, pay and go.....that's one good idea but now that I have read about the Chevy Volt I am thinking that's an even better idea.

[Mark Rozitis]

So here are some things that the people are looking for in an electric car.

-Long range per charge
-Super fast charging
-Has to look like a car, not a golf cart.
-Needs good acceleration
-Needs to be within budget Under $50,000.
-Needs a battery recycling program
-Requires little or less than traditional Vehicles

Please let me know if I've missed anything.

At the moment. I dont think a vehicle with all these factors above can give you something under $50,000.

Gasoline vehicles are very problematic, we were lucky to have 100 years to perfect all its problems, and build addequit infrastructure for them. Electric vehicles dont have 100 years to evolve, so dont be expecting a smooth transition between gas to electric.

From what I already know, if we were dealing with Li-Ion batteries, there wouldnt be much of an environmental issue, its the lead acid batteries that require proper disposal. And im sure, there will be more and more solar and wind as well as hydro electricity power plants instead of coal plants in the near future. The reason for owning an electric is not only because of fuel costs, but also because of our increase production of carbon dioxide.

Planes would need a solution too......Planes are a huge producer of CO2.

Problem is the price, at $50,000 only the rich can afford and they can probably pay the high gas prices, just like when Hummer came out, if they can afford the Hummer they can afford the gas.

To get mass sales whatever the newer more fuel friendly car and TRUCK is it must be under $30,000 and I mean under $30,000, whether it's the Chevy Volt or something else. If all I can afford is $12,000 or $15,000 I guess I am going to have to drive a fully gas powered car and pay the high gas prices.

[Mark Rozitis]

I saw a story on the CBS news last night where they speculated how the future would be with rising gas prices. How we could have a world where travel becomes far too expensive to drive or fly cross country. Where NASCAR can no longer afford to operate and where people will move back to the cites to save on travel expenses.
That people would have to give up what they do today because it costs too much to live that way. It made me think of what it would be like for FIRST. It would cost way too much for certain teams to travel and the championships would simply be out of the question. It certainly would change my travel schedule to numerous events.

I didn't see that story but I have sure read alot about what life will be like when we have $200 oil and higher, I shoot for two stations in Toronto and we had an interview clip on with David Suzuki and he mentioned that in the not to distant future we will all live, work and play within walking or biking distance.

It's hard to imagine just how big the changes will be and for someone like me who lives to drive it is severely depressing, If I go more than a day without driving around and seeing some of the beautiful ontario countryside I get depressed. That's why I've always said I could never work in an office, but yea how much fuel/oil are we using up flying alone? I think eventually and sooner like perhaps after the recession is over and oil goes for another massive run life is going to change and this is going to happen in our lifetime.

Just like climate change, it's "happening now".

David Suzuki also mentioned that it would indirectly solve the obiesity crisis as most people would be doing more walking and biking instead of using a car for everything like we do now.

Going to be interesting times, I'm not too happy about it though.

m

[DonRotolo]

Keep in mind only the major automakers can get cars certified for the road by the transportation safety board easilyTrust me, it's no easire for them than for you and me, except they have the knowledge (they've done it before) and the resources(engineering staff, lawyers, etc). They still have to work pretty hard at it though.
What I am wondering is why the big guys like GM then don't jump on the big money that is there to be made in going electric if they have the technology
Simple: There is no big money to be made, EVs are still a losing proposition, gas is still cheaper and loads more convenient, even at $4 a gallon.

$10 a gallon, though...:ahh:

MY vote is for a diesel hybrid, the (small) engine runs a generator at constant (and hyper-efficient) speed to charge the batteries, only electric motors drive the wheels and accessories. That diesel will run on vegetable oil too, and today's new BlueTec diesels are cleaner than any gasoline engine by quite a lot.

Don

[Mark Rozitis]

Trust me, it's no easire for them than for you and me, except they have the knowledge (they've done it before) and the resources(engineering staff, lawyers, etc). They still have to work pretty hard at it though.

Simple: There is no big money to be made, EVs are still a losing proposition, gas is still cheaper and loads more convenient, even at $4 a gallon.

$10 a gallon, though...:ahh:

MY vote is for a diesel hybrid, the (small) engine runs a generator at constant (and hyper-efficient) speed to charge the batteries, only electric motors drive the wheels and accessories. That diesel will run on vegetable oil too, and today's new BlueTec diesels are cleaner than any gasoline engine by quite a lot.

Don

yea maybe, you would think if there was big money in mass produced electric along the technology of the Chevy Volt they would have done it by now, then again maybe they too are gambling that this is just an oil bubble that will burst but 9 out of 10 analysts are saying that's not the case this time around.

Something has to happen soon, $150 oil looms next week....

Sure our lives and work will change but there will be one heck of a lot of people out of work because of this.

GM just signed a contract with it's workers and promised to keep the truck plant in Oshawa ontario open and that changed last week, the union is furious but other than the people that need it for absolute necessity for the business...who can afford the fuel for those trucks? No wonder GM had to make a tough business decision.

I just hope they start making more small trucks, we had the S10, now the colorado/canyon but we neen more because not everyone can fit into a tiny car.

Things are sure looking rather bleak thats for sure and one can only hope the automakers and goverment regulators will work to get electric and other stuff onto the market....NOW! not 3-5 years from now when fuel is $10/gallon.

Just think how high it will go this fall if we get a Katrina style storm or two even remotely threatening the gulf.

m

[acdcfan259]

Theres plenty of ways to help meet the demands that electric vehicles would put on our power grid. Wind farms, geothermal energy, solar energy, and nuclear.

[Protronie]

Theres plenty of ways to help meet the demands that electric vehicles would put on our power grid. Wind farms, geothermal energy, solar energy, and nuclear.

Wind farms are more hot air than electricity. They are not practical in most areas of the US. Neighbors often call them noisy and an eye sore.

Geothermal is another purely experimental source with limited locations.

Solar... is an excellent source of private energy generation ... when the sun shines. The cost of photocells has been dropping and their reliability has been increasing.

Nuclear... other counties (expect for the Ukraine) have an excellent safety record as well as a proved track record of providing a steady flow of power.
Its silly that the US has given into a bunch of wacky tree hugging environ nuts by banning a new construction.
With oil prices going through the roof perhaps its time to start building them again and maybe the enviros will be able to afford the gas in their SUV's.

Electric vehicles will not be the magic bullet needed to reverse global warming or make this nation energy independent.
However IMO they will be a part of the bigger picture. They will have a place, and they will be a part of the solution
Someday they may play a larger roll in our transport usage but that day is still far in the future and will cost billions in R&D money before they will replace the fossil fuel vehicles.

[Tom Saxton]

I just found this thread. I've been researching this subject for the past 18 months and have some information to add to the discussion.

Range

GM and Toyota both produced EVs with ranges above 100 miles to charge, so the 60 mile range is lower than what the big car companies were able to produce when forced to do so by the California Air Resources Board in the last 1990's. These vehicles were based on NiMH technology, lithium ion has been density. The Tesla Roadster has a range of 220 miles, so much more than 100 miles is possible.

http://www.sonyclassics.com/whokilledtheelectriccar/

Cost

Of course EVs are more expensive than the mass-produced gas vehicles built by giant corporations that have been perfecting the technology and manufacturing process for 100 years. That cost gas vehicles is also artificially low because the buyers don't have to pay for the damage done to the atmosphere, it's great to not have to pay for dumping your trash!

The Tesla Roadster is expensive, but cost competitive when compared to similar high-end low-production sports cars. Lots of companies are working to get EVs into lower priced sedans. I'm sure that will happen, but not overnight.

Charge Time

People worry about how long it takes to charge an EV, but they totally ignore how inconvenient it is to make a trip to the gas station because we're all used to that annoyance. No one complains about how long it takes to charge a cell phone -- you just plug it in at night and it's full in the morning. As long as an EV has enough range for your daily commute, and charges overnight, it doesn't matter how long it takes. Imagine a world where waiting in line to breath in carcinogenic fumes and end up smelling like gas isn't normal. Imagine never having to go to a gas station again.

Given sufficient range and reasonable charge times, the charge time is only an issue for road trips. There are other solutions to the road trip problem - like owning a second car or renting a gas/electric hybrid for the few times you really need unlimited range.

Charge time is mainly limited by how much current you can pull through your outlet. For example, the Tesla Roadster's battery pack takes 4.5 hours to charge from fully drained with a 220V/90A circuit but it can be charged in less than an hour at a dedicated charging station. So, plug into the dedicated charger in the restaurant's parking lot and have a full battery after you finish a leisurely meal.

Well-to-Wheel Efficiency

The internal combustion engine (ICE) used to power vehicles is inherently inefficient with a narrow gap where they can generate significant torque and operate efficiently. That's why ICE vehicles have transmissions. Electric motors, especially AC induction motors, can be far more efficient and deliver torque over a much broader RPM range, and all without the complexity and maintenance issues of a transmission.

Both power plants and electric motors are more efficient than ICE technology, both in terms of miles per unit energy and miles per unit CO2 production.

http://www.teslamotors.com/efficiency/well_to_wheel.php

The Electric Grid

Our electric grid is designed to accommodate the highest peak load which typically occurs on hot summer days when air conditioning puts high demands on the grid. A recent study funded by the DOE found that the grid has enough unused capacity to charge 70 million EVs during off-peak hours. It we can figure out how to get the coffee maker to come on before we wake up in the morning, we can get our EVs to charge at night without having to manage it by running to the garage and plugging it at bed time.

http://www.pnl.gov/news/release.asp?id=204

EVs could actually help the grid by charging at night at low electric rates then selling their excess charge back to the grid during peak hours. Just tell your car it's OK to sell back to the grid as long as the battery is kept charged enough to satisfy your expected range needs.

EVs also have the advantage of being as green as the grid. It's easier to take care of CO2 production at a power plant than it is to change the technology of the thousands of vehicles that could be charged by that plant.

Recycling Batteries

I apologize for making yet another Tesla reference, but they are farther along in producing EVs than anyone else, or at least anyone else who's talking. Here's the story on recycling their batteries.

http://www.teslamotors.com/blog4/?p=66

[artdutra04]

Some interesting news coming back from Tesla Motors yesterday. They are currently looking to build a new factory in either New Mexico or California to begin manufacturing the Model S, a $60k electric sedan with a range of 225 miles.

http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/30/tesla-announces-the-model-s-a-60k-all-electric-five-passenge/

Later that day, Elon Musk - founder of PayPal and SpaceX, as well as one of the Board of Directors for Tesla - reported that he expects the electric car technology to drop to below $30k within four years. There is still a lot of work to do to get the price this low, but it is encouraging news.

http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/30/tesla-motors-elon-musk-promises-sub-30k-all-electric-car-in-le/

And in case anyone hasn't heard yet, Tesla also is working on redesigneding their transmission for the Roadster (http://www.teslamotors.com/blog4/?p=67). It's a great read for the ME or general gearheads out there. So far, they've gone to a single speed gearbox - increasing the efficiency - which added another 10 miles to the range of the car.

[Tom Saxton]

Some interesting news coming back from Tesla Motors yesterday. They are currently looking to build a new factory in either New Mexico or California to begin manufacturing the Model S, a $60k electric sedan with a range of 225 miles.

Tesla Motors hasn't announced any details about the Model S sedan except its starting price. The 225 mile range appeared in a California state press release, but no one at Tesla Motors has said anything like that. Engadget is not known for their fact-checking prowess.

I hope the range on the sedan is that high, but I'm not going to set any expectations until I hear official specs from Tesla Motors.

I was great to hear Elon say that the < 30k EV will be available "sooner than anyone is expecting" and within 4 years. It's been their plan all along to use the Roadster and the sport sedan to jumpstart their goal of producing lots of affordable EVs, so it means a lot to know they think they are still on target to deliver on that goal in the 40-year time frame.