**FIRST EMAIL**/Invitation to Beta test the New Control System [Archive]

Mark McLeod

18-07-2008, 16:03

Greetings Teams:

With the launch of our new FRC Control System just around the corner, we are seeking a limited number of teams interested in beta testing the new control system.

FIRST BETA TEST PROGRAM GOALS

* Give as many teams as possible early hands-on exposure to the 2009 control system;
* Use beta team feedback to refine/develop supporting documentation and training materials;
* Test the features and functions of the new control system to uncover problems and provide solution suggestions;
* Develop a supporting network/knowledge database to ease the transition to the new system;
* Allow teams to become “Control System Experts” and serve as area leaders to mentor other teams;
* Share information to minimize strategic advantages; and
* Understand the difficulties and issues that teams may encounter with the new control system.

In order to be eligible for the FIRST beta testing program, FRC teams must exhibit attributes consistent with a Chairman’s Award winning team and have participated in FIRST programs for at least three recent years. Teams will be selected based on their location and their FIRST experiences. The specific beta testing criteria for the FRC teams is outlined below:

TEAM SELECTION CRITERIA

* COMMUNITY

o Teams who have consistently demonstrated involvement within their FIRST community will best fit this beta program. A team’s communication network should be in place and will be utilized in this project.

* VISION

o Teams who have proven they ‘get’ the bigger picture and vision of FIRST and who want to work together for the betterment of the FRC program are preferred.

* GEOGRAPHICAL AREAS

o Team location is key to the beta test. FIRST will distribute the control systems geographically in an effort to gather more diverse feedback and also to create “Control System Experts” in as many locations as possible for future mentoring.

REQUIRED BETA TEST TASKS
Beta test teams must perform the following tasks:

* Submit and execute a test schedule and plan;
* Transplant the new control system into an existing FRC competition robot with the understanding that they will not take this opportunity to test new mechanisms;
* Designate one lead student and one technical mentor to serve as the communicators of test results;
* Post their findings on the FIRST Forums on a bi-weekly basis;
* Be available to answer questions from teams in their region, and from the broader FRC community;
* Release every piece of code developed;
* Open their facility to regional teams to observe or assist in the test program;
* Agree to serve as “Control Systems Experts” and provide support to teams in their surrounding areas for the 2009 season;
* Hold at least one Saturday controls training seminar open to all neighboring teams prior to the 2009 kickoff. This schedule is to be posted on the FIRST Forums; and
* Agree to return this 2009 Control System to FIRST upon request.

FIRST is asking interested, eligible FRC teams to submit a written proposal via this application form <http://www.usfirst.org/forms.aspx?ekfrm=9446> by August 15th, 2008 on why they would be a good candidate, how they intend to collaborate and work with their neighboring teams, and what they intend to do if they receive the new control system.

Teams are asked to identify the specific robotic features that will be integrated as part of the team's beta testing efforts. By being specific, teams will increase their chances for being selected. For example, teams might consider including one or more of the following robotic features in their proposed development plan:

* Image-based control to track the position of a target such as the 2006 Aim High cold cathode light;
* Closed loop PI control of a rotating robotic arm using a potentiometer;
* Control of the end of travel of a mechanical component through the use of limit switches, light sensors, and/or potentiometers;
* Navigation using wheel encoders and a gyro;
* Implementation of a blown circuit breaker detection algorithm;
* Implementation of a transmission shifting algorithm; and/or
* Implementation of an autonomous routine.

Applications for beta test teams will be reviewed by a panel of Championship Woodie Flowers Award Winners.

Selected teams will be notified by September 1st, 2008 and control systems will be shipped starting September 15th, 2008 after FIRST receives the test schedule and plan from the beta tester. Please direct questions regarding submissions to FRCbetatest@usfirst.org.

While FIRST would like to provide every team with a control system for evaluation in the beta test, FIRST must limit the scope of this test program due to the number of control systems available at this early date.

Our beta test team selection criteria, out of necessity, narrows the list of potential participants but is not intended to favor or disfavor any specific teams. One goal of the beta test program is to strengthen local communication and support networks, so FIRST will select the teams that will do the best job of disseminating the knowledge accumulated through testing.

As noted above, the intent of this program is to test and improve the 2009 FRC Control System, give as many teams as possible early hands-on exposure, and reduce the learning curve for teams. This approach to beta testing is not perfect, but it brings us closer to the goal of creating the best control system possible for the 2009 season and beyond. Thank you all for your support in helping successfully launch FIRST’s new control system!

Go Teams!

Leav

19-07-2008, 17:17

Hi guys,
My team is very interested in helping out, so I tried to register...

but all I get is a blank page... could this be due to my ubuntu+firefox combination?

anyone else getting a blank page at:
http://www.usfirst.org/forms.aspx?ekfrm=9446

I'm getting the same blank page when I randomly enter numbers instead of 9446 so i'm guessing it's either a typo or the page isn't up yet...

either way... anyone get any further with this than a blank page?

Thanks!

-Leav

p.s.
just emailed them about it...

R.C.

19-07-2008, 17:23

Dude, I'm getting a blank page also???

Brandon Holley

19-07-2008, 20:15

ditto on the blank page

Mark McLeod

19-07-2008, 21:11

That's the link and it was up and working when the email originally arrived.
Maybe 1500 applications brought it down...

basicxman

19-07-2008, 21:37

wow thanks FIRST for that FTC beta application :rolleyes:
wish i had an FRC team to test this with :D

Leav

20-07-2008, 12:48

so what, we don't get to submit an application? the kids gave it a good hard day's work.... :(

-Leav

Mark McLeod

20-07-2008, 13:10

I'm sure the FIRST web crew will fix it after they get back from their weekend off.

Leav

20-07-2008, 17:38

oops! forgot Sunday isn't a workday in the states :p sorry!

Micah Siegel

22-07-2008, 10:56

Some of you maybe have seen the email about the beta test program for the 2009 FRC control system. If not, you can find the text here (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=68521). In summary, FIRST is looking for a few good teams to start using the control system; incorporating such maneuvers as image-based control, navigation using wheel encoders and a gyro, and implementation of a transmission shifting algorithm.
But, in my mind the most important part of this program is the following: The teams that participate will be given a challenge, which is to teach and demonstrate the control system to EVERY other team that wants to learn. Here’s where many of you come in. You might not be applying to the beta test, but you should not let the opportunity go by without getting everything you can out of it. This means:

1. Create and maintain relationships with one or more of the beta test teams once they are announced.
2. Follow the progress of this team, read their bi-weekly posts on the FIRST forum, ask lots of questions, look at the code they publish.
3. Go visit the team at their school, attend their seminar, watch the control system in action, get the look and feel of it.
4. Take detailed notes about how you can better incorporate the new system into your design for the 2009 season.
5. Come January, call the team again, ask them more questions, keep in touch, use their support, they are there to help you.
By the way, you can ask questions about things other than the control system!!!

I see this program as a valuable way to establish contacts between teams, and as a way for rookie teams and struggling teams to develop a relationship with an experienced team that can guide them along and mentor them. In case you haven’t realized yet, the word “participate” in the title of my post does not necessarily mean apply for the test (though I would encourage all teams to discuss and consider it), but it means to get everything you possibly can out of it. Take advantage of this opportunity! :yikes:

Sincerely,
Micah

Daniel_LaFleur

22-07-2008, 12:54

I see this program as a valuable way to establish contacts between teams, and as a way for rookie teams and struggling teams to develop a relationship with an experienced team that can guide them along and mentor them. In case you haven’t realized yet, the word “participate” in the title of my post does not necessarily mean apply for the test (though I would encourage all teams to discuss and consider it), but it means to get everything you possibly can out of it. Take advantage of this opportunity! :yikes:

Sincerely,
Micah

Here I disagree with you.

There is far more to be learned by hands on training, than by asking questions. FIRST is creating an unbalanced playing field be allowing those that are already established (3+ years in FIRST, "chairmans award winning" attributes) to get direct hands on experiance while the rest of the teams get to watch blogs.

I believe that, with this system, those that need the experiance the most (rookies) will be given the least amount of help.

Lets face it, the veteran teams that they want are the teams with already established software teams and this will give them a head start as to the nuances of the controller.

Don't get me wrong, I understand why they are asking for beta testers. I just wish that they wouldn't favor the teams that already have enough advantages.

As usual, this is JMHO.

Cory

22-07-2008, 13:07

Here I disagree with you.

There is far more to be learned by hands on training, than by asking questions. FIRST is creating an unbalanced playing field be allowing those that are already established (3+ years in FIRST, "chairmans award winning" attributes) to get direct hands on experiance while the rest of the teams get to watch blogs.

I believe that, with this system, those that need the experiance the most (rookies) will be given the least amount of help.

Lets face it, the veteran teams that they want are the teams with already established software teams and this will give them a head start as to the nuances of the controller.

Don't get me wrong, I understand why they are asking for beta testers. I just wish that they wouldn't favor the teams that already have enough advantages.

As usual, this is JMHO.

To be blunt, the reason they want those teams (In my opinion, obviously) is because those are the teams poised to do the most good. If you send a unit to a rookie team, they're not going to be able to do all the things FIRST wants them to do, and they won't be able to help the community via workshops, etc. You need a team to be well established, have lots of resources and know how to do a thing like this. Yes, it's going to be an advantage for the teams who get one, but how much of a disadvantage will we all be in if nobody gets one, and the bugs never get worked out of the system?

IndySam

22-07-2008, 13:09

Here I disagree with you.

There is far more to be learned by hands on training, than by asking questions. FIRST is creating an unbalanced playing field be allowing those that are already established (3+ years in FIRST, "chairmans award winning" attributes) to get direct hands on experiance while the rest of the teams get to watch blogs.

I believe that, with this system, those that need the experiance the most (rookies) will be given the least amount of help.

Lets face it, the veteran teams that they want are the teams with already established software teams and this will give them a head start as to the nuances of the controller.

Don't get me wrong, I understand why they are asking for beta testers. I just wish that they wouldn't favor the teams that already have enough advantages.

As usual, this is JMHO.

I couldn't disagree more. These strong veteran teams will be developing code we can all use. Rookies most of all will benefit from the work of these teams.

These team will be laying the ground work for teams without the programming knowledge and ability. They will make it possible for other teams to build competitive robots.

Billfred

22-07-2008, 18:28

There is far more to be learned by hands on training, than by asking questions. FIRST is creating an unbalanced playing field be allowing those that are already established (3+ years in FIRST, "chairmans award winning" attributes) to get direct hands on experiance while the rest of the teams get to watch blogs. Not just blogs, mind you--teams are being required to open up their shops to other teams (where one can see things up close, often by necessity if your shop's anything like mine), hold a Saturday workshop (another opportunity to see everything up close), and release all their code (which not only lets me see what they've done on my own time, but gives me a chance to turn their own firepower against them come regionals). It certainly appears that FIRST is doing everything within their power to minimize the competitive advantage these teams could receive. I don't know how one could get an edge on it, short of cheating.

Akash Rastogi

22-07-2008, 18:43

Here I disagree with you.

There is far more to be learned by hands on training, than by asking questions. FIRST is creating an unbalanced playing field be allowing those that are already established (3+ years in FIRST, "chairmans award winning" attributes) to get direct hands on experiance while the rest of the teams get to watch blogs.

I believe that, with this system, those that need the experiance the most (rookies) will be given the least amount of help.

Lets face it, the veteran teams that they want are the teams with already established software teams and this will give them a head start as to the nuances of the controller.

Don't get me wrong, I understand why they are asking for beta testers. I just wish that they wouldn't favor the teams that already have enough advantages.

As usual, this is JMHO.

I believe you made a big assumption about most veteran teams. For example, if we get picked, we will work as hard as possible to bring teams into our workshop to get as much of the same experience as we are getting. Don't assume things about other teams please.

Mr. Freeman

22-07-2008, 18:44

Paul Copioli

22-07-2008, 18:45

Remember that the judges (I happen to be one of them) will be looking for teams that are willing to actually show (aka hands on) the hardware / software in live workshops much more than the minimum requires. The challenge will be getting to those areas that are far away from the selected sites.

Depending upon the number of controllers allocated, this will be a big challenge. If the teams that are selected have the good of the entire FIRST community in mind, then organizing these workshops in various locations will help eliminate some of this problem.

I envision step by step instructions on various parts of the system (including both hardware and software) that will even help teams that don't attend any workshops at all, because I believe that the attendance rate will be quite low as will the actual submission rate.

Akash Rastogi

22-07-2008, 21:07

Just had a question, will it be up to the teams to get the word out about any workshops they will be holding in various areas or will we be able to post that on the blogs to get the word out quickly and effectively?

-thanks

Chris Fultz

22-07-2008, 22:29

I think the teams that agree to do this, and follow through with their plans, will gain a small advantage of "learning by doing", but i believe the entire community will gain an advantage by having teams working with the system, finding issues and sharing knowledge. I think this will make the official season and competition much better.

In reality, the top performing teams would probably get to a high level of performance even in just the six weeks of build season, this will let them bring lots of other teams with them this fall.

It will take a lot of work and effort and I applaud every team that is selected.

Kims Robot

22-07-2008, 23:17

I can see how the newer teams might be worried about the advantages here, but I think if the judges do their jobs correctly, teams that already have a history of working with other teams will be chosen. For example, for the last two months, we have been running labview seminars for all of the local teams every other week. It started as an idea that we were in a panic over the new control system and wanted to train our kids over the summer, but then we realized we could just as easily invite all the other teams in the area to show up too. We also post it on our forum (http://penfieldrobotics.com/forum/index.php?board=33.0) (you have to be logged in to see & download files) so that everyone can access it, especially if they miss a class.

Think about it, if you are going into your second year of FIRST and struggled to just barely program your robot last year, you may have even gotten some help from local teams... would you like to be selected and struggle your way through fighting out the bugs of the new control system? or be able to tag along with a more experienced team that might be able to move past the stages of troubleshooting bugs and actually be able to show you how to use the system? I think some people are underestimating the potential for major bugs in this system. Nothing against NI - we are VERY excited for this control system, but any engineer can tell you at the very first stages of development and Beta test, there are going to be a ton of bugs to work through. Beta teams will use the controller in ways the designers never thought of, and this is going to end up as MUCH more of a testing and troubleshooting environment than it is going to be "learning and gaining advantage over teams that dont have it". But we are thrilled that they are going to try and get as much hands on testing with this system before they actually send it out in the kit of parts... to be honest, we were scared that teams wouldnt get to touch the first model until kickoff... FIRST is doing us and themselves a HUGE service by putting out this program now... I see very little need to argue about the advantages & disadvantages. My suggestion? If you dont win it but wanted to... find your closest team that did win, or even set up online with another team to see how you can help them, to see what you can learn from them on a day to day basis rather than just sulking and reading the blogs...

I am glad to see that FIRST is going to require teams to open up all of the code that they develop, as I think it might usher in a new age of teams sharing. I know the Rochester teams have a great history of helping eachother with everything from preseason training to build season sharing of resources & mentors, I'm hoping that this will get more regions to do the same.

Kevin Sevcik

23-07-2008, 00:18

If you've read through this thread and you're still skeptical about the ultimate benefit to giving beta units to select veteran teams, I have one simple argument.

For the past several years, CD and the FRC community have benefited from the programming and electrical expertise of the likes of Kevin Watson, Alan Anderson, Don Rotolo, dcbrown, Al Skierkiewicz, and numerous others. We've had Kevin's massively useful codebase and many intro programming seminars for rookies, in addition to all the tech support on CD.

Now picture how well things are going to go if all of our expert help suddenly disappears at the exact moment we have a huge paradigm shift in our control system. Everyone getting the control system at the same time means that suddenly no one is an expert. And no one has anywhere to turn for help. The veteran teams with very talented programming help will catch on quick enough, but rookies and less experienced teams are going to be left with no clue what's going on and no where to turn for help, as our experts are going to be far too busy playing catchup themselves to be nearly as effective as they are now. They'll certainly try, but on the whole, I think it makes a lot more sense to rebuild our grassroots support that's worked so well for us in the past, in stead of deliberately shooting ourselves in the foot in the name of complete fairness and equity.

Also, did anyone else notice that the email didn't mention anything about the C++ interface or whether or not a team will be using that over Labview? If you have two teams in an area, and one's dedicated to C++ and another to Labview, I think it makes perfect sense to let both teams into the program. But I didn't see any mention of it...

Daniel_LaFleur

23-07-2008, 09:38

Not just blogs, mind you--teams are being required to open up their shops to other teams (where one can see things up close, often by necessity if your shop's anything like mine), hold a Saturday workshop (another opportunity to see everything up close), and release all their code (which not only lets me see what they've done on my own time, but gives me a chance to turn their own firepower against them come regionals). It certainly appears that FIRST is doing everything within their power to minimize the competitive advantage these teams could receive. I don't know how one could get an edge on it, short of cheating.

I know that the teams that are picked will do all they can to help other teams, but the nature of getting things first is that it's an advantage (and an unfair one at that).

Open up their shops? -- Yes they will do this, but seeing a robot/program run and getting a few questions answered vs actually programming it with the nuances of a specific controller are 2 different things. And it's the little things that those teams overcome that will be 'missed' by the teams that don't get that advantage.

Saturday workshops? -- 4 hours in a lecture/lab on a Saturday does not make up for 3+ hours Monday-Friday getting the thing running.

Release all the code? -- Does this include competition code? all the code from now til doomsay? or just until others get the RC? and when does this code have to be released by? getting code that runs on one machine does not mean that it will run on another without knowlege of why it runs (which the veteran teams are getting that knowlege, and the others aren't) and what will need to be modified.

Basically what I'm saying is that FIRST is basically telling 1st and 2nd year teams that they are not good enough to help the community, because they are new. And when you exclude some group from helping, you hurt everyone.

Again, I want to state that I know these teams will do what they can to help others ... but that doesn't change the fact that they are being given an advantage and that FIRST is deliberately excluding groups that may want to help.

tennispro9911

23-07-2008, 09:48

First of all, I think its a huge unfair advantage for Veteran teams to get to test the RC before other teams.

I don't think anyone from a veteran team would say that they would ever learn more by going to a seminar rather than programming it themselves, or looking at code rather than writing it themselves, and seeing the results of it.

Its unfair that teams that are new, or have fewer resources are not allowed the same advantages as expert teams. I really don't think that point can be argued against.

However, thats reality, and thats the best thing for FIRST as a whole, and even for rookie teams. FIRST CANNOT give every team a RC early. Its not possible. FIRST needs to give it to the teams that benefit the community the best as a whole. Also, rookie teams benefit more by having expert teams help them, than they would without the help. This program does nothing to level the playing field. In fact, it possibly makes the playing field even more uneven, but it also helps ALL teams, and it helps avert possible disaster during the season.

Zflash

23-07-2008, 10:08

The teams that were selected for the NI LabVIEW and Data Acquisition Pilot Program.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40813 http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50566
What did you learn from your experiences and is there a place that the FIRST community can go to in order to read lessons learned or helpful tips.
Some of our mentors have gone to a NI Lab View seminar at a local Marriott and have recievied some information but are eager to learn more.

Thanks in advance.

Arefin Bari

23-07-2008, 10:13

I know that the teams that are picked will do all they can to help other teams, but the nature of getting things first is that it's an advantage (and an unfair one at that).

Open up their shops? -- Yes they will do this, but seeing a robot/program run and getting a few questions answered vs actually programming it with the nuances of a specific controller are 2 different things. And it's the little things that those teams overcome that will be 'missed' by the teams that don't get that advantage.

Saturday workshops? -- 4 hours in a lecture/lab on a Saturday does not make up for 3+ hours Monday-Friday getting the thing running.

Release all the code? -- Does this include competition code? all the code from now til doomsay? or just until others get the RC? and when does this code have to be released by? getting code that runs on one machine does not mean that it will run on another without knowlege of why it runs (which the veteran teams are getting that knowlege, and the others aren't) and what will need to be modified.

Basically what I'm saying is that FIRST is basically telling 1st and 2nd year teams that they are not good enough to help the community, because they are new. And when you exclude some group from helping, you hurt everyone.

Again, I want to state that I know these teams will do what they can to help others ... but that doesn't change the fact that they are being given an advantage and that FIRST is deliberately excluding groups that may want to help.

Daniel, I understand where you are coming from and maybe it is a disadvantage because the 1st and 2nd year teams aren't getting the controller to mess around with before kickoff.

Here are few things I would like to point out...

1) We don't have single programmer on the team (Team 1345). We have had the help from Team 108's programmers and Kevin Watson's code.

2) It's just not a "lecture." FIRST teams function differently than most other organizations. If you are to ask an expert in FIRST (whether mechanical, electrical or software), they won't say no and they will explain the concept to you until you understand and I am willing to bet that teams who are chosen will have workshops for local teams which will be hands on and just not a lecture.

3) Teams who will beta test this control system will release codes. No they won't give you your robot's competition code. But we will at least have the default code. FIRST has already suggested programmers to look at specific programming language. If the default code is given to you and if your programmer has been training him/herself, he/she should be able to write the rest of the code. If not, take your robot out to the local team and ask them for help. They will help you with the code just as Team 108 did for Team 1345 this past season.

4) All the knowledge that I have gained from this FIRST program is from usually researching about different things. For example, I didn't have an actual transmission to play with when I designed my first transmission. I came out here and looked at what others have done. I took their design and modified it to my needs. Isn't that how engineering works?

I am assuming that there will be very few controllers for this beta testing. How do you propose FIRST to choose these few teams out of existing 1,500 teams around the world?

GaryVoshol

23-07-2008, 11:49

Everyone needs go back and read the first goal for this program:
* Give as many teams as possible early hands-on exposure to the 2009 control system;
This will NOT be a case of one team gets the software to play with on their own, and everyone else gets to listen to seminars or read blogs. Successful team applications to get the beta-test will have to show how they are going to share it with others. I've already spoken with a mentor of a team likely to apply, and told him to include our team in their application for sharing the test, as an example of a team whose programmer has graduated. FIRST will no doubt be interested in finding out how user-friendly this system is for newbies. But they aren't going to give it to a newbie who can only test basic functions. Veteran teams are more likely to have advanced features on their robots.

In fact, I suspect several "powerhouse veteran" teams will submit joint applications. FIRST would be hard-pressed to decide which is the ONE best team to test the system in New England, or CA, or MI, or TX, or NY. A successful application will point out the multitude of functions that can be checked using 2 or 3 or 4 machines. Want to test standard drive, mechanum, crab? That will require more than one machine. Want to test more than one auto/hybrid mode? Want to test multiple limit switches, sensors, etc? Give the new controls to a team that will share them with as many teams as possible, and you'll get the widest test possible.

Cory

23-07-2008, 12:25

Basically what I'm saying is that FIRST is basically telling 1st and 2nd year teams that they are not good enough to help the community, because they are new. And when you exclude some group from helping, you hurt everyone.

This seems to be pretty much exactly what they are saying.

At the risk of sounding rude, or elitist, is there any indication that these teams are up to the task?

I'm sure some are, but most aren't. And even if some were, they're not going to be able to hold up on paper next to teams that have been around for 15 years, and exemplify every criteria FIRST is looking for. So ultimately the teams you mention get left out anyways, just with the appearance of the process being more "fair".

We have two options here. FIRST does what it's doing now, and gives out 15 beta units, or we get zip and everyone goes into 09 blind.

How many times has FIRST introduced new components, scoring systems, etc without them having properly tested? Can't we all just be happy and thank our lucky stars that for once they actually want input from the community, and are attempting to make what is sure to be a difficult transition a little bit smoother?

There's no way to have the cake and eat it too, here. Will beta test teams get an advantage? Yes, but it is necessary for the greater good of the program.

tennispro9911

23-07-2008, 12:46

This seems to be pretty much exactly what they are saying.

At the risk of sounding rude, or elitist, is there any indication that these teams are up to the task?

I'm sure some are, but most aren't. And even if some were, they're not going to be able to hold up on paper next to teams that have been around for 15 years, and exemplify every criteria FIRST is looking for. So ultimately the teams you mention get left out anyways, just with the appearance of the process being more "fair".

We have two options here. FIRST does what it's doing now, and gives out 15 beta units, or we get zip and everyone goes into 09 blind.

How many times has FIRST introduced new components, scoring systems, etc without them having properly tested? Can't we all just be happy and thank our lucky stars that for once they actually want input from the community, and are attempting to make what is sure to be a difficult transition a little bit smoother?

There's no way to have the cake and eat it too, here. Will beta test teams get an advantage? Yes, but it is necessary for the greater good of the program.

I Agree. Of course, the Poofs are quite possibly going to be a team getting a beta unit, and TigerTronics (my team) are definitely not getting one. I wish we were, but reality dictates that FIRST needs to do what is best for all, and not what is necessarily "fair."

Thats life.

Dmentor

23-07-2008, 13:00

I am a mentor on a 2nd year team and FIRST seems to be taking a prudent course of action. Step back and treat this as an optimization problem. The goal is to obtain the best possible control system for 2009 with a limited set of resources. Technical know how, geographic location, track record, and yes fairness are all variables (add your own). How would you go about solving it? I can think of many alternatives but the advertised program seems pretty good.

Personally I'm excited about the potential to work closely with more experienced teams. I would love it if locally 116 or 612 were able to be part of the program but if not then are there any options to be able to coordinate with teams virtually? Just being able to review designs, code along with asking questions is valuable in my opinion.

Daniel_LaFleur

23-07-2008, 13:19

Daniel, I understand where you are coming from and maybe it is a disadvantage because the 1st and 2nd year teams aren't getting the controller to mess around with before kickoff.

Here are few things I would like to point out...

1) We don't have single programmer on the team (Team 1345). We have had the help from Team 108's programmers and Kevin Watson's code.

I'm not too concerned about my teams ability to program. We have 8 students that can and will be programming. Imbedded systems are different than most as they tend to have their own way of handling and addressing I/O. It's these nuances that will not (unless they are specifically mentored) be conveyed well to the newer teams.

2) It's just not a "lecture." FIRST teams function differently than most other organizations. If you are to ask an expert in FIRST (whether mechanical, electrical or software), they won't say no and they will explain the concept to you until you understand and I am willing to bet that teams who are chosen will have workshops for local teams which will be hands on and just not a lecture.

Again, the issue is not whether or not teams will answer questions ... of course they will.

The issue is that the teams without knowlege of how the controller responds (to things like PID controls) won't know the proper questions to ask.

3) Teams who will beta test this control system will release codes. No they won't give you your robot's competition code. But we will at least have the default code. FIRST has already suggested programmers to look at specific programming language. If the default code is given to you and if your programmer has been training him/herself, he/she should be able to write the rest of the code. If not, take your robot out to the local team and ask them for help. They will help you with the code just as Team 108 did for Team 1345 this past season.

I wasn't asking about my teams robots code ... I was asking about their competition code. Billfred said something about using their own firepower against them.

4) All the knowledge that I have gained from this FIRST program is from usually researching about different things. For example, I didn't have an actual transmission to play with when I designed my first transmission. I came out here and looked at what others have done. I took their design and modified it to my needs. Isn't that how engineering works?

Sometimes. If you want to learn how something works, taking apart one is a good start.

Most of the time, however, engineering is about problem solving. Generally you are not given a working object ... instead you are given a list of specifications and you need to make a device that matches all of those specs.

I am assuming that there will be very few controllers for this beta testing. How do you propose FIRST to choose these few teams out of existing 1,500 teams around the world?

Teams should submit test plans for what they are going to do. They should be required to only have the beta units for a fixed length of time to ensure that their competitive advantage is minimalized. All code should be accessable (read only) to all teams at all times. All beta testers should be required to keep and publish (on a official FIRST site) an engineering notebook (possibly an engineering diary as well) on their findings.

Before kickoff All teams should recieve their controller, with the beta teams recieving theirs 1/2 their testing time later.

The above would limit the advantage, not exclude any group (as it's only based on the test plan), and would still give beta testing reports to all.

JM(NS)HO

tennispro9911

23-07-2008, 13:24

I agree. Working with experienced teams in our general area, 365, 341, 20, 191 and others would be a fabulous experience. Also, I honestly cannot think of a better way to do this than the proposed one. (Unless, of course, you gave one to my team AND did this, :D ) Joking aside, this is a great way to do it, and although its not perfect, nothing is. For example, take this quote "Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried." ~ Winston Churchill. I would say something similar about this program.

Arefin Bari

23-07-2008, 13:51

JaneYoung

23-07-2008, 14:12

I think this initiative was developed to help bridge the gaps that rookies and young teams have in some areas. I also like the posts in this thread that 'get' the purpose of this. I view the purpose as better preparation, hands-on experience, training, and sharing of knowledge gained. Building stronger community: strengthening teams and teams working together.

We also have to have a level of trust in this, trusting those involved such as people like our WFA go-to guy, Paul Copioli.

Elgin Clock

23-07-2008, 14:40

If anyone really wants to complain about not being able to test these suckers out, I would consider the fact that the base model of the new system goes for at least 3 grand ($2100 with a discount if you buy a quantity of 100 course.).

For FIRST to even consider trusting teams ahead of time with some of these, let alone a quantity of 15 for "pre-release" for the 2009 season... is awesome.

But if you still want to complain a team will have an unfair advantage over you, go ahead & buy one.
Oh, btw, that 3 grand price tag doesn't include modules or additional components as shown on the demo bots in Atlanta, & other places such as IRI.

http://sine.ni.com/nips/cds/view/p/lang/en/nid/203964

Daniel_LaFleur

23-07-2008, 14:42

Daniel,

Targeting every single one of my views won't get you anywhere. Perhaps, you should write a letter to FIRST if you are that concerned. Other than that, I shall direct you to Cory's post above. I don't think I can put it in better words. If you would like to have further conversations, feel free to pm me. Rather than sitting here going at it, I would like to be thankful that FIRST is even getting 15 systems out to teams for beta testing. I don't know about you, but I know I will have enough documents to work with for next season as far as these controllers go.

p.s. - I understand that you are not liking the fact that the 1st and 2nd year teams aren't getting a chance. The only way to take initiation about this is to convince FIRST.

Arefin,

I apologize if it appeared that I was 'Targeting your views'. That was not my intent. My intent was to air my concerns about the way things re being handled in a constructive manner and to get a dialog started. It appears as if my constructive criticism was not taken as constructive, and for that I apologise.

It would be interesting to chart how well the teams that get the beta units against those who didn't and see if it actually gave them a distinct advantage or not.

tennispro9911

23-07-2008, 15:20

Arefin,

I apologize if it appeared that I was 'Targeting your views'. That was not my intent. My intent was to air my concerns about the way things re being handled in a constructive manner and to get a dialog started. It appears as if my constructive criticism was not taken as constructive, and for that I apologise.

It would be interesting to chart how well the teams that get the beta units against those who didn't and see if it actually gave them a distinct advantage or not.

Of course the teams that get the units will do better on average. But thats not because they got the units. It may or may not help, but think about it. Lets say you give units to 1114 and 254, just to use teams that a lot of people know, and that probably will do very well next year regardless. If they do better than a rookie team, do you really think thats because of a slight advantage of seeing the RC first?

The teams that get these will do awesome if they do or do not get them. What would be more interesting is if the teams that go to the seminars that these teams put on do better. Thats truly a test if this program works as intended.

JesseK

23-07-2008, 15:50

Do we know if/when the schedule of area workshops will be sent around to teams? It seems like a logical "yes" but I'd like to know the workshop schedule as soon as possible, if possible. Advance scheduling is key to coordinating other FRC auxiliary projects, FTC season kickoff between a few different schools, SEAPerch, and a myriad of things that come up in the Fall at work.

If a team gets it in the DC/NoVa/Baltimore/Richmond area, I'd also like to offer help either in the "ways to run it in" planning or the building of the test platforms one weekend. While I know our team currently does not have the capacity to do the full beta test (SEAPerch is really taking off...), at least two of our veteran students are interested in getting more design/build experience preseason. Cheers!

R.C.

23-07-2008, 19:07

I don't want to be rude, but the veteran teams should get the rc first. We, 1323, are probably not going to get the rc to beta test and we are 6th year team. You can learn a lot from just reading and seeing pics. So Rookie teams don't worry about not getting the rc as early as the veteran teams.

Good Luck everyone for the 09 Season.

Greg Needel

23-07-2008, 20:53

The main reason I agree with FIRST in this case is mainly because of time frame. While as someone who is starting a rookie team this year I would love to get my hands on a controller the right decision has been made.

If teams chosen will be getting the controller September 15th and will be doing work for a couple months. The issues I see is the time frame for fixing problems before kickoff. If a team discovers a hardware or interface bug there will be little or no time to fix it before they need to be in the kits. Putting it in the hands of teams that may have the ability to fix those problems will be crucial.

For example it was veterans who came up with the new match pairing algorithm. Back in the Hatch days I remember watching some of my peers debugging the Hatch software on the fly week one so the other regonals could go off. I am not saying that young teams don't have the expertise to do this, but I would rather put my money on someone who has a track record of success.

As for the arguments about giving veteran teams a huge advantage let me put it bluntly. The teams in question constantly have that advantage over everyone else. While it may not be as obvious as this situation when it comes down to it those teams have the experience, the resources, the people, and ultimately the right combination that can only come from years of hard work. If you honestly think that getting your controller a few months early will magically boost your performance to that of 1114, 330, 245, and others you are sadly mistaken. If you are a good team then the shared experiences of the other veterans will make you stronger, and if you are struggling rookie team don't worry other people will have your back.

Ken Patton

23-07-2008, 21:27

One thing that teams who are submitting Beta-test proposals could do - and I promise I will look for it in evaluating proposals - is to clearly show how they are going to make it better for the new teams to get running without the major efforts that the Beta-test teams will be devoting to this. That would help to address the concerns of people who think there might be some advantage. If new teams can go through the Beta-test primers and get up in running in less time than it took the Beta-testers themselves (after all, the inital problems ideally would be solved in Beta-test), that will be an advantage to the new teams.

Beta-test teams need to think of the valuable pieces of the puzzle - solutions and instructive steps that will be needed by all teams - and then put together a proposal that will address those puzzle pieces. Think of the features needed in our robots. There are a lot of areas where good solutions will be of value to many teams.

There are going to be areas where proposals might overlap, and it seems to me that if teams did a great job of documenting solutions, we could get away with less overlap.

Ken

AdamHeard

23-07-2008, 21:46

It makes perfect sense for them to target the teams they are; They only have 15 units to give out, and they want teams overall to get most out of this program.

Even the most amazing 2nd year team can't hold a candle to what 365 and other similar teams can do to benefit the community if they were to be selected as part of the beta program. If they removed the stipulations I think the 15 units would go to the same teams anyway.

Kims Robot

23-07-2008, 21:50

Silly question... where did the number of 15 units come from? Best I can tell Cory was just throwing a number out there, as I dont see it officially anywhere... and before people get too bent up about it, I was wondering if I missed it somewhere...

Cory

23-07-2008, 21:55

tennispro9911

23-07-2008, 22:54

As for the arguments about giving veteran teams a huge advantage let me put it bluntly. The teams in question constantly have that advantage over everyone else. While it may not be as obvious as this situation when it comes down to it those teams have the experience, the resources, the people, and ultimately the right combination that can only come from years of hard work. If you honestly think that getting your controller a few months early will magically boost your performance to that of 1114, 330, 245, and others you are sadly mistaken. If you are a good team then the shared experiences of the other veterans will make you stronger, and if you are struggling rookie team don't worry other people will have your back.

Exactly. There is a reason that 1114 has won 5 regionals and the championship in the last 2 years and it isn't luck. Teams do not have the same resources, and teams are not on a level playing field. This will help rookies and newer teams as much if not more than the teams that are consistantly great.

marccenter

25-07-2008, 15:23

Would it be possible for teams to combine resources in a local geographical region to beta-test the FRC 2009 controller? What would the mechanism be for organizing this? I for one would be willing to assist a team of folks willing to tackle the FRC 2009 in the Detroit area, but may not able to commit to implementing a full blown solution as proposed without additional resources.
Thoughts?

Shadow503

12-08-2008, 12:52

People should remember that this is a BETA test.

"Betaware is a nickname for software which has passed the alpha testing stage of development and has been released to a limited amount of users for software testing before its official release. Beta testing allows the software to undergo usability testing with users who provide feedback, so that any malfunctions these users find in the software can be reported to the developers and fixed."
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_test#Beta]

The intention of this is so that NI and WPI can work out any bugs before the season. Everyone in FIRST benefits from a functional, stable control system. Rookie teams may have a hard time setting up and using the controller. NI and WPI need teams that will be able to delve into the low levels of this controller's capabilities.

And as mentioned before, FIRST is doing an excellent job of ensuring that teams that don't beta test the controller will still get a fair chance. And I don't foresee these 4 hour seminars being dry lectures. I know I would rather help a rookie programmer by giving them hands on experience than by babbling on about setting up I/O functions for 4 hours.

Andy Baker

12-08-2008, 14:50

Greetings Teams:

....

FIRST is asking interested, eligible FRC teams to submit a written proposal via this application form <http://www.usfirst.org/forms.aspx?ekfrm=9446> by August 15th, 2008 on why they would be a good candidate, how they intend to collaborate and work with their neighboring teams, and what they intend to do if they receive the new control system.

...

Applications for beta test teams will be reviewed by a panel of Championship Woodie Flowers Award Winners.

Selected teams will be notified by September 1st, 2008 and control systems will be shipped starting September 15th, 2008 after FIRST receives the test schedule and plan from the beta tester. Please direct questions regarding submissions to FRCbetatest@usfirst.org.

...

Go Teams!

This is a reminder that the applications for beta testing are due to this Friday, August 15th.

Sincerely,
Andy Baker

Richard McClellan

12-08-2008, 21:59

Giving the new system to the new teams early might be a better idea. The way it is now, the veteran teams selected for this program aren't going to run into problems because they've been given the system early. Rookie teams are going to have to learn the system as well as go through every other problem rookie teams face programming-wise (such as how to program).

I'm not sure how many bugs veteran teams are going to find in this system anyway. Isn't this just a small version of what NASA used on the mars rovers? (If not then someone correct me) I think NASA and NI would have already found any big problems with this system.

The veteran teams are going to help other teams learn how to use this system, but aren't they still put at an advantage?
This is the same hardware, but the software libraries for both LabVIEW and C++ are totally new, so they will need to be debugged.

Silly question... where did the number of 15 units come from? Best I can tell Cory was just throwing a number out there, as I dont see it officially anywhere... and before people get too bent up about it, I was wondering if I missed it somewhere...

According to an NI employee over at the booth by the demo robot at NI Week, they will be shipping 20 systems out to beta teams. Of course, this is not official, this is just what I heard.

Mr. Freeman

13-08-2008, 13:39

Only 20 systems are being distributed? I know that the majority of teams are not going to be making 8 hour(or more) road trips to go visit a team across a state, or in another state to attend Saturday lectures and labs. I think more than 20 systems need to be distributed for most teams to have any hands-on experience with the controller.

whytheheckme

13-08-2008, 14:05

I believe that only 12 systems are being distributed.

Jacob

JaneYoung

13-08-2008, 14:37

Taken from the initial email:
While FIRST would like to provide every team with a control system for evaluation in the beta test, FIRST must limit the scope of this test program due to the number of control systems available at this early date.

Our beta test team selection criteria, out of necessity, narrows the list of potential participants but is not intended to favor or disfavor any specific teams. One goal of the beta test program is to strengthen local communication and support networks, so FIRST will select the teams that will do the best job of disseminating the knowledge accumulated through testing.

Based on the email, it is clear there will be a limited # of teams that will do the testing and provide the information required, as stated in that same email.

I am not a fan of guessing, posting guesses, or hinting at information - esp. if it doesn't really contribute in a beneficial manner.

JaneYoung

13-08-2008, 15:33

This is a reminder that the applications for beta testing are due to this Friday, August 15th.

I was re-reading the thread and noticed Andy's reminder. This is a time when that innovative notion kicks in that some or many of us can feel antsy about and I'd like to take a moment to commend the teams that have taken the initiative to put forth a proposal, stepping up to be leaders in their communities. I'd also like to encourage teams who are interested but have not submitted a proposal, to do so by Friday. My thinking is: the more submissions, the better the selection for the beta testing. Good luck all.

Jane

Kims Robot

13-08-2008, 17:17

ttldomination

13-08-2008, 17:40

Anyone else having trouble coming up with a good essay under 2500 characters? Including Spaces?

We're having a hard time and its getting harder and harder to post it.

Kims, the system won't accept over 2500. Trust me, i've tried.

Paul Copioli

13-08-2008, 18:42

DonRotolo

13-08-2008, 19:09

The teams that were selected for the NI LabVIEW and Data Acquisition Pilot Program.
1676 is one of those teams; we did post a bunch of info somewhere buy I can't remember where (nor can I find it); I will research it see what I can find. IIRC we learned a lot about LabView, and it helped us refine some of the code on the robot by measuring accelerations and temperatures and stuff.

Anyway, about the 2500 word limit: There is a quote attributed to Mark Twain and to Blaise Pascal (I suspect Twain is the one), to the effect I apologize for the long letter, I did not have the time to write a short one

What this means is that it is more difficult to make your point in a short essay than in a long one. You need to be a good writer to shorten an essay.

I wonder if spaces count towards the 2500? I would think so.

Don

Rosiebotboss

13-08-2008, 21:14

I wonder if spaces count towards the 2500? I would think so.

Don

Yes. 2500 characters. Periods, commas, spaces, quotation marks, etc. etc...

Ours came in at 2499.:D

whytheheckme

13-08-2008, 23:34

Anyone else notice that they posed a 2500 character limit but didnt give a count in the application? Im hoping they will be a few characters lenient for teams that try to push right to the 2500 characters using word or excel or some other character count method... :)

Looking at the HTML code:

<td><textarea id="Why" onblur="design_validate_js('this.text.length <= 2500',this,'Allow maximum of 2500 characters');"
title="Why" name="Why" rows="5" cols="40" ektdesignns_validation="max1000Chars"
ektdesignns_basetype="textbox" ektdesignns_validate="js:this.text.length <= 2500"
ektdesignns_invalidmsg="Allow maximum of 2500 characters"
ektdesignns_name="Why" ektdesignns_caption="Why"
ektdesignns_nodetype="element" max="2500"></textarea>
</td>

we can see that the text field will only permit 2500 characters.

Just a heads up.

Jacob

BrianT103

14-08-2008, 10:17

Could someone who knows for certain as to what the 2,500 character limit pertains to reply to this post. It was previously stated that the 2,500 limit included spaces, could someone on the judging panel verify this statement.

Kims Robot

14-08-2008, 10:24

Here is a warning for those of you thinking of posting over 2500 characters (becasue the system will let you): don't do it. Your entire essay will not even be looked at. Please follow this simple rule. Be concise and be clear as everyone has this limit.

But how do we know what the 2,500 characters is? We did our Chairmans Essay in word and it came to 9,998 characters, and when we put it into the chairmans form, the CA form told us we had 10,012!! So if there is no feedback to the submitter and they are cutting it close, how are they to know that the count that they used in Word isnt the same as the count in the website script? We buffered ours by several characters to hope to make sure, but cant tell if there is any real way to know if we are under the scripts version of 2500...

David Doerr

14-08-2008, 11:17

I'm not on the judging panel, but I have had the experience of submitting an application.

When I did our team's submittal yesterday August 13th, a red-dashed-line box appeared around the submitter-box and a popup window appeared indicating that I had tried to submit more than 2500 characters.

Prior to that, when I checked our application with MS Word, it appeared as though we had under 2500 characters -- including spaces, periods, etc. I suspect that the submitter box checks end-of-line characters in addition to those that MS Word counts. I removed about 40-some characters and our application submitted correctly.

You could check all characters, including end-of-lines, if you have access to unix with the "wc -c" command.

Hope this helps...

Dave D

Shadow503

14-08-2008, 14:59

Eugene Fang

14-08-2008, 15:05

whytheheckme

14-08-2008, 15:16

Does anyone know if the character limit is just a front end thing or is the php code going to re validate the essay before submitting. If there is no server side code enforcing this, maybe some inline javascript could buy us a few more characters. . .

That wouldn't be graciously professional.

Regardless, I don't think it'd work. Whatever database this is going into probably has a filter on the incoming data, and by bypassing the javascript on the page, you could even corrupt your own entry, if there is nothing checking the data coming in.

And it wouldn't be GP.
Jacob

Shadow503

14-08-2008, 15:57

=Martin=Taylor=

14-08-2008, 16:11

I have a pretty obvious question. (someone might already have answered it)

What happens if no team from our area gets the chance to beta test the new system? After all, there are only 15 of them... Do we just get to read about it online?

I wouldn't count on 254 getting the system. They aren't exactly famous for their autonomous programming capabilities...

To quote a great man:
What's an autonomous mode?

Alan Anderson

14-08-2008, 16:21

I'm not sure I buy the GP argument. Would anyone really care if it was a few characters over?

The answer to that would be yes. Specifically, the people who care are the ones who will be reading the application:

Here is a warning for those of you thinking of posting over 2500 characters (becasue the system will let you): don't do it. Your entire essay will not even be looked at. Please follow this simple rule. Be concise and be clear as everyone has this limit.

Greg Needel

14-08-2008, 16:39

I'm not sure I buy the GP argument. Would anyone really care if it was a few characters over? Their character counter includes line breaks, so arguably we could use the additional characters for formatting to improve the readability of the essay, thus making the job of the person reviewing the essay easier. ;) I do agree that it probably wouldn't work, as they likely already have code in place to trim quotation marks & ect. so they probably threw in a filter too.

Either way, we're under 2500 characters, so I'm not trying anything funny. Good luck to all who are applying! :D

This is one of those instances that I really think GP does apply (although people tend to use it as a scapegoat for things they don't like around here) The rules of the beta test application are the same for everyone and while you "may only be adding a few characters" you are intentionally trying to circumvent rules that are in place.

Also in a similar note since this beta test has said that they want chairman's teams what kind of role model team does things like this. Now I am not trying to make a big deal about this but every once in a while people need to stop and think about what they say or do from those perspectives.

I read and article reciently that talked about the current generation of technical savvy people and how many feel entitled to whatever is technically possible. For example borrowing photos from google images on the easy side or from a harder perspective leaching data from a site for your own uses. While these are both technically possible there are ethics around doing so. Basically just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you should and being savvy enough doesn't entitle you to being above the law. < enough ranting now back to your regular scheduled thread.>

Travis Hoffman

14-08-2008, 16:40

I have a pretty obvious question. (someone might already have answered it)

What happens if no team from our area gets the chance to beta test the new system? After all, there are only 15 of them... Do we just get to read about it online?

Divide the total geographic area populated by FIRST teams worldwide by 15 or whatever the heck the actual number is, and you still get......a really freaking big area. I imagine most teams will have to LEARN (don't say "read" - we want audiovisual documentation too!) about it online as they will be too far distant from their closest beta tester to actually visit them and see the hardware in person.

I hope whichever teams are given this burden and responsibility to the FIRST community, they leverage whatever technology they have at their disposal to effectively demonstrate their findings to all of us. Written documentation alone simply isn't enough. The community needs pictures, videos, online tutorials - perhaps even teleconferences where remote teams can see and speak with beta testers in realtime. If you arrange seminars for in-person demonstrations, plan for an online component as well, via webcasting and other means.

Whoever is chosen for this privilege - be creative and thorough in how you share with the rest of the community. We're all depending on you!

Aside from all beta test teams learning the control system basics early on, which is a given (and hopefully beta testers will conspire early and often to decide who is going to document what and when and how such that we end up with the most diverse body of documentation possible following this testing phase, instead of 15 "This is how you turn the thing on" videos :P), will there be any mechanism in place to ensure that teams will specialize in enough "custom" development areas that there isn't too much overlap? I don't think we need 12 teams focusing on vision development, for instance. Who will manage the overall program coordination?

JaneYoung

14-08-2008, 17:16

I'm not sure I buy the GP argument. Would anyone really care if it was a few characters over?

Just to add one more thought to this.
Applications for beta test teams will be reviewed by a panel of Championship Woodie Flowers Award Winners.

This is the panel who will review your submission. They became WFAs because of their integrity, their contributions to FIRST, and their own understanding and demonstrations of Gracious Professionalism. I think it is very very cool that the WFAs are a part of this effort in such a wonderful way. It's one of the things that makes FIRST so unique and so special and we should never lose sight of why we have the Woodie Flowers Award in the first place and how that impacts our community. :)

I read the rest of your post stating that you are under the character limit, I just wanted to take an opportunity to talk about our WFAs and their value.

Dowjonesbotics

14-08-2008, 17:19

I'm not sure I buy the GP argument. Would anyone really care if it was a few characters over?

I'm sorry but even considering doing something like this is pathetic and I hope that you don't do anything stupid like this. :mad:

Please note that this person does not reflect the views of team 141...he's just making himself look bad. That team would never even consider such a thing.

DonRotolo

14-08-2008, 20:52

will there be any mechanism in place to ensure that teams will specialize in enough "custom" development areas that there isn't too much overlap? I don't think we need 12 teams focusing on vision development, for instance. Who will manage the overall program coordination?
We cover that in our submission - the selected teams need to understand the burden and disadvantage they are subjecting themselves to.

Disadvantage? Yup. All the time we'll be spending fiddling with the controller will be time we cannot cover other subjects in Pi-Tech Academy, so while we might get good at the controller, we'll have a LOT to make up for every other thing it takes to build a FIRST Robot.

Burden? Yes. You think this is a cakewalk? Not only do you need a very intense program - we are thinking it will be almost like build season for 3 extra months - you have the additional burden of documenting everything. And not just "post a note on CD every few weeks" - I mean, you need to make teams from anywhere really, really understand this beastie, from afar - you need papers, code, video, drawings...a LOT of extra work, compared to just the Academy or even build season.

I'm not sure my family will be as understanding as they are in January. Heck, it might not even be fun. But Professionals do what they have to do, consistently and reliably. The gracious part comes from not grumbling or slacking.

The reward? Like last year at GTR, when some kid who lived a thousand miles from home, who I'd only conversed with by e-mail, found me and thanked me for teaching him how to do PID. Priceless.

Don

Andrew Schuetze

14-08-2008, 21:48

Team 499, Toltechs, up-loaded our application yesterday. I am more than curious as to how many teams have done so and from what geographical areas? San Antonio, Texas

Do we need a new thread for this or can we keep adding to this one?

APS

Akash Rastogi

14-08-2008, 23:45

We cover that in our submission - the selected teams need to understand the burden and disadvantage they are subjecting themselves to.

Disadvantage? Yup. All the time we'll be spending fiddling with the controller will be time we cannot cover other subjects in Pi-Tech Academy, so while we might get good at the controller, we'll have a LOT to make up for every other thing it takes to build a FIRST Robot.

That's probably the same thing that I would be worried about disrupting if we get the chance to beta test. MORT U would be hurt but then I remember how much the entire FIRST community in our area would benefit. If you guys get the system to test and learn about then maybe the members that you are not able to teach, you can send over to our high school for MORT U. It could work out if we really need it to.:]

Karthik

15-08-2008, 02:09

Team 1114 just submitted our application. Hopefully we'll be selected, as we're very excited to possibly develop some code that can be used by the entire community in 2009. As Don said, the teams selected will have to do a lot of work, but it will definitely be worth it.

Shadow503

15-08-2008, 08:53

I'm assuming the fanatical response to my posts is only a result of humor not transferring well over the interwebs. . .
Oh well, I do have to say this is somewhat entertaining.

Once again, good luck to all the teams that submitted apps. Hopefully enough documentation will be made available on the web for teams that don't have a beta test site in their area.

Edit: Just to clear things up further, I never had any serious intention to actually circumvent the character limit. Shoulda' made that clearer ;)

IndySam

15-08-2008, 09:31

Big thanks to all the teams willing to do this beta test. It will be a huge amount of work and immensely valuable to the FIRST community.

dachickindapit

15-08-2008, 09:42

HOT has submitted an application for the beta test. Like Dave said, we had issues with the 2500 character limit, but we got it down under the limit for submission.

Alan Anderson

15-08-2008, 11:58

TechnoKats are in the stack! or something.

I submitted Team 45's application this morning. The comments about character limits confuse me -- I was at 2481 after saying everything I needed to.

Madison

15-08-2008, 12:26

This is the most poorly designed application form I've ever seen.

Akash Rastogi

15-08-2008, 12:54

This is the most poorly designed application form I've ever seen.

How so?

We submitted a while ago and we're eager to hear from FIRST and finally show NJ teams what we've got :)

Manoel

15-08-2008, 13:17

This is the most poorly designed application form I've ever seen.

And you're only saying that because you didn't have to input a Brazilian phone number - it just doesn't work! ;)

Other than that, we're happy with our submission and hope for the best to be selected.

PS - 2500 characters isn't even a full page! :ahh:

Cory

15-08-2008, 13:57

Teams 100, 254, and 668 have submitted joint applications, and look forward to a chance at being selected for the beta test.

Madison

15-08-2008, 14:03

How so?

We submitted a while ago and we're eager to hear from FIRST and finally show NJ teams what we've got :)

The fields for awards information are clunky and they're certainly not doing any favors for someone trying to submit awards information for more than one team.

It seems like the entire thing could've been better integrated into TIMS to poll for that sort of information and then presented it to the judging panel in a more organized manner.

TKM.368

15-08-2008, 14:51

This is the most poorly designed application form I've ever seen.

VIMS ranks up there...

ttldomination

15-08-2008, 14:59

Team 1261 submitted three days ago. :D.

We, and 3 other FTC teams, await eagerly. :D.

Madison

15-08-2008, 15:15

Okay, I just submitted an application on behalf of most of western Washington. I'm not even going to try naming everyone.

Brandon Holley

15-08-2008, 18:20

Teams 125 and 246 have submitted together.

JB987

15-08-2008, 23:21

Team 987 also submitted an application and look forward to a chance to learn and share...

BornaE

17-08-2008, 17:01

Teams 39 and 842 have submitted a joint application as well. Looking forward to it.

Kims Robot

18-08-2008, 10:32

1511 Submitted with 191, 378, 1126, 1405, 1507, 1551, 2228 & 2340 (anyone recognize the Ruckus committee & our labview teams?? - lol). We are acting as the leaders, so we just submitted our award info and the essay is based mostly off our team experience since it just seemed easier for the form and to keep the characters short.

Good luck to all the teams that get a system... its going to be a crazy preseason!

Leav

19-08-2008, 04:04

Andrew Schuetze

19-08-2008, 08:39

Upon reading here that several teams submitted joint applications, I became curious as to how many applications have more than one team listed. I started a poll in another forum since I couldn't add a poll to this thread. Please post your number in the poll and then comment on how that came to be. Please vote even if you are a single team application such as is the Toltech application.

Poll (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68891)

Kims Robot

19-08-2008, 19:26

Hi Kim (and anyone else who submitted for more than 3 teams)
just wondering: what your rational was in submitting for so many teams?
do you plan on moving the controller between those teams evenly?
or perhaps all those teams are the one's who are in your area and will benefit from your team having a controller and giving classes on it?

In Rochester, a lot of the teams work together on several different things, everything from Ruckus planning to local demos to helping the Rookie/younger teams. While our team probably has the strongest labview base, there are other teams that were very interested but just didnt feel they could handle running the whole Beta test themselves. We took the lead and asked them to join us because we feel they will have expertise and time that could help us as well, and want more than just our team to have hands on with this system.

We will likely be the center team, hosting the controller, but we had plans of having saturdays where other teams could bring their robot in, demos at Ruckus, webcast trainings and phone conferences to involve teams further out, and a lot of documentation on our wiki & forums. We will be inviting all of the teams that want to drive out here to be involved in any/all of the process, but these were just the teams that we have been interacting with for Ruckus planning and the teams that have been attending our Labview training all summer.

I think for us, it just made sense, we can run the Beta testing, but bring in expertise from all the other teams in the area to help out and assist in problems as welll as taking time to teach as many teams as we can.

The Lucas

20-08-2008, 23:58

We will likely be the center team, hosting the controller, but we had plans of having saturdays where other teams could bring their robot in, demos at Ruckus, webcast trainings and phone conferences to involve teams further out, and a lot of documentation on our wiki & forums. We will be inviting all of the teams that want to drive out here to be involved in any/all of the process, but these were just the teams that we have been interacting with for Ruckus planning and the teams that have been attending our Labview training all summer.

I think for us, it just made sense, we can run the Beta testing, but bring in expertise from all the other teams in the area to help out and assist in problems as welll as taking time to teach as many teams as we can.

With that many teams it would be interesting if some of the teams programmed in Labview and others programmed in C++. It would be very difficult for a single team to program the robot in both languages (the dashboard is a different story). Especially when one is a visual language so find & replace can't help. Also, it would also be far too confusing for the students who need to focus on a language to learn for that year. However, with more teams, each team can focus on their language of choice and share the robot. You can even have different programmers reprogram the robot between Labview and C++ without switching cables :cool:

Labview is obviously Rolling Thunder's forte. I've gotten to know SparX programmers enough to know they are C gurus, even diving into the adc library to modify it. They sound like perfect candidates to help develop the open source C++ libraries as a C++ lead team. Your collaboration has the potential to do more "Beta Testing" than any of the other recipients by developing thoroughly in both languages and comparing first hand.

Obviously, the choice between Labview and C++ is the most important decision programming teams face this year. I am not trying to make that decision for anyone, or give anyone more work/confusion. Just a idea I would like all the Beta Testing collaborations to consider.

Good Luck to all teams as we break new ground,
Brian

<SIDE RANT> I don't see the major advantage to installing the cRIO controls system on multiple bots. Without multiple power distro blocks, digital sidecars, etc... it is an intense electrical task to move the cRIO between robots. Even if you build a modular panel, it still is time consuming to switch. IMHO, no matter how many teams you have:
-Use 1 testbed bot
-Load it with sensors and mechanisms
-Maximize precious uptime for your programmers
</SIDE RANT>

hallk

21-08-2008, 00:06

Several of the Milwaukee teams plan to work together (if one of us gets it) but submitted seperately to try to increase our odds.

Akash Rastogi

21-08-2008, 00:07

Speaking of programming in various languages and diversifying the results, is anyone planning on having students programming in Python? Just curious.

Kims Robot

21-08-2008, 08:07

Labview is obviously Rolling Thunder's forte. I've gotten to know SparX programmers enough to know they are C gurus, even diving into the adc library to modify it.

Actually our Labview Guru is a Lead Test Engineer here at Harris, and is typically our our Drivetrain Mentor and leads the Strategy Subteam. Our two lead programmers work entirely in C and had their six students writing in C last year. All the work that they have done through the past four years has all been in C, including our Camera work and all of our PIDs. They also helped half our alliance partners program auto modes in Philly, and did some similar work in Atlanta last year. So we have a fair amount of background in C ourselves, but havent yet had the experience of trying to use Labview to program the robot. I expect we would start the port with C code, and then try and figure out how to redo a bunch of it in Labview so we could instruct teams that want to go that route. But yes we are looking forward to working with SparX, XCats and the other teams for their wealth of knowledge as well!

Nate Smith

21-08-2008, 09:09

Update through the FRC Blog this morning...

Did you apply to be a Beta Test Team for the 2009 FRC Control System? 159 teams did. Their applications were sorted by state, the duplicate entries were removed and everything is now in the hands of the panel of Woodie Flowers Award Winners who will be making the final selections over the next week. Teams should hear by September 2nd if they’ve been chosen and we expect to start shipping supplies to Beta Test teams by September 15th. We are encouraging Beta Test Teams to share their experience with the entire FIRST community so watch for more details after that date. Good luck. I’m looking forward to your feedback.

134 days until Kickoff! See you then.

ATannahill

21-08-2008, 09:40

we were suppose to hear by september 1st :(

Madison

21-08-2008, 10:14

we were suppose to hear by september 1st :(

September 1 is Labor Day.

ATannahill

21-08-2008, 10:25

do volunteers benefit from Labor Day?

Cory

21-08-2008, 14:50

do volunteers benefit from Labor Day?

FIRST has employees which are paid, and as such, will not be at work on a holiday to be sending out email blasts.

What difference does a day make?

IndySam

21-08-2008, 14:56

I do believe there is a little kidding involved.

Joe Ross

21-08-2008, 16:13

I think all the evaluators deserve a tremendous thank you. I can't imagine trying to evaluate 159 essays in 15 days or less. That's 10 a day, as a volunteer. I have a feeling that at least some of them will be giving up part of their holiday to work on this.

I'm very glad I'm not in their position.

Alan Anderson

02-09-2008, 11:23

Teams should hear by September 2nd if they’ve been chosen...
I hope that teams will also hear if they have not been chosen. Silence is ambiguous. I wonder if FIRST plans to post an official list of the beta test teams.

Rosiebotboss

02-09-2008, 12:19

I hope that teams will also hear if they have not been chosen. Silence is ambiguous. I wonder if FIRST plans to post an official list of the beta test teams.

It's 12:19 (or there abouts) and I have not seen anything from FIRST. Has anyone else?

BornaE

02-09-2008, 13:07

Still nothing! 10:10am Arizona

ATannahill

02-09-2008, 13:08

1:08 i see nothing, i was hoping for something before school got out

IndySam

02-09-2008, 13:21

This is like waiting for Obama's VP text.

Jon236

02-09-2008, 13:35

Maybe CNN will leak it!

NickE

02-09-2008, 14:10

I wonder if FIRST plans to post an official list of the beta test teams.
Due to the intended community nature of the beta test, it would make sense for FIRST to post a public list of the chosen teams.

Akash Rastogi

02-09-2008, 15:24

Cory

02-09-2008, 16:04

I heard today that there are actually only 15 systems that will be spread around from my mentor who heard it from the regional director. Don't know how accurate it is but its a reliable source. This makes chances of getting the system very very low.

That's not unexpected though. The numbers people have been tossing around are 12, 15, and 20. There's not much of a difference between 15 and 20.

Zflash

02-09-2008, 16:17

E-mails have been sent out and only 18 kits were provided who were the lucky ones?

Alan Anderson

02-09-2008, 16:18

I just received the official notice from FIRST. There are 18 systems to send out to the beta test participants.

The TechnoKats aren't getting one of them.

Tom Bishop

02-09-2008, 16:18

Just got our turn down email, but no list of accepted teams. Came here to see if there was a list!

Mr MOE

02-09-2008, 16:22

MOE 365 just got our letter also. We are not getting a system either.

Here is the letter we received...

=================
Greetings,
Thank you for applying for the 2009 New Control System Beta Test. Unfortunately we were not able to include you as a Beta Test team. We were only able to supply 18 teams with test kits and the final decision by the Woodie Flowers Award winners selection panel was based on a combination of strength of application, experience and geography.
We appreciate your willingness to assist us in this project and wish you the best of luck in the 2009 season.
--
FIRST Robotics Competition

(p) 1-800-871-8326 x 0
(f) 603-666-3907
frcteams@usfirst.org
www.usfirst.org

Richard Wallace

02-09-2008, 16:26

As of a minute ago, Bill Miller was logged onto the FIRST Forum and his activity was shown as:

Last Activity: Today 03:18 PM
Current Activity: Replying to Thread Bill's Place Main Page

I expect we will see an update from Bill shortly.

Re: Beta Test Teams 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Good Afternoon Teams,

Please join me in congratulating the 2009 New Control System Beta Test teams. Let me tell you, it was a real challenge to choose only 18 teams from all of the well qualified applicants. I have already contacted these teams to share the good news and will ship them their supplies as soon as the beta test kits are complete. The beta test teams will begin to share their results with everyone shortly after receiving their kits. Stay tuned, I’ll let you know where to find their comments.

16 Bomb Squad, Mountain Home, AR
39 39th Aero Squadron, Falcon Robotics, Gilbert, Phoenix, AZ
67 HOT – Heroes of Tomorrow, Milford, MI
79 Team Krunch, Palm Harbor, FL
103 Cybersonics Technology Team, Kintnersville, PA
330 BeachBot, Hermosa Beach, CA
340 Greater Rochester Robotics, Churchville, NY
476 Wildcats, Ponca City, OK
499 Toltechs, San Antonio, TX
668 The Apes of Wrath, San Jose, CA
1114 Simbotics, St. Catharines, Ontario
1425 Error Code Xero, Wilsonville, OR
1577 SteamPunk, Raanana, Israel
1583 Rambotics, Watkins, CO
1629 GaCo (Garrett Coalition), Oakland, MD
1714 More Robotics, Milwaukee, WI
1816 The Green Machine, Edina, MN
1848 SOUP, Atlanta, GA

122 days until Kickoff! See you then.

Tottanka

02-09-2008, 16:27

WOW.
moe and technokats don't get once?
i wanna here from 1114, 111, 330 and 25 now...they are my bet =]

IndySam

02-09-2008, 16:27

Good Afternoon Teams,

Please join me in congratulating the 2009 New Control System Beta Test teams. Let me tell you, it was a real challenge to choose only 18 teams from all of the well qualified applicants. I have already contacted these teams to share the good news and will ship them their supplies as soon as the beta test kits are complete. The beta test teams will begin to share their results with everyone shortly after receiving their kits. Stay tuned, I’ll let you know where to find their comments.

16 Bomb Squad, Mountain Home, AR
39 39th Aero Squadron, Falcon Robotics, Gilbert, Phoenix, AZ
67 HOT – Heroes of Tomorrow, Milford, MI
79 Team Krunch, Palm Harbor, FL
103 Cybersonics Technology Team, Kintnersville, PA
330 BeachBot, Hermosa Beach, CA
340 Greater Rochester Robotics, Churchville, NY
476 Wildcats, Ponca City, OK
499 Toltechs, San Antonio, TX
668 The Apes of Wrath, San Jose, CA
1114 Simbotics, St. Catharines, Ontario
1425 Error Code Xero, Wilsonville, OR
1577 SteamPunk, Raanana, Israel
1583 Rambotics, Watkins, CO
1629 GaCo (Garrett Coalition), Oakland, MD
1714 More Robotics, Milwaukee, WI
1816 The Green Machine, Edina, MN
1848 SOUP, Atlanta, GA

122 days until Kickoff! See you then.

charrisTTI

02-09-2008, 16:27

Same letter here.

Tottanka

02-09-2008, 16:28

the list:
Good Afternoon Teams,

Please join me in congratulating the 2009 New Control System Beta Test teams. Let me tell you, it was a real challenge to choose only 18 teams from all of the well qualified applicants. I have already contacted these teams to share the good news and will ship them their supplies as soon as the beta test kits are complete. The beta test teams will begin to share their results with everyone shortly after receiving their kits. Stay tuned, I’ll let you know where to find their comments.

16 Bomb Squad, Mountain Home, AR
39 39th Aero Squadron, Falcon Robotics, Gilbert, Phoenix, AZ
67 HOT – Heroes of Tomorrow, Milford, MI
79 Team Krunch, Palm Harbor, FL
103 Cybersonics Technology Team, Kintnersville, PA
330 BeachBot, Hermosa Beach, CA
340 Greater Rochester Robotics, Churchville, NY
476 Wildcats, Ponca City, OK
499 Toltechs, San Antonio, TX
668 The Apes of Wrath, San Jose, CA
1114 Simbotics, St. Catharines, Ontario
1425 Error Code Xero, Wilsonville, OR
1577 SteamPunk, Raanana, Israel
1583 Rambotics, Watkins, CO
1629 GaCo (Garrett Coalition), Oakland, MD
1714 More Robotics, Milwaukee, WI
1816 The Green Machine, Edina, MN
1848 SOUP, Atlanta, GA

122 days until Kickoff! See you then.

EricH

02-09-2008, 16:31

330 getting it means most of SoCal will, too. Coalition application, with about half a dozen teams.

AcesPease

02-09-2008, 16:34

Odd

No teams in New England at all. No teams even close geographically.

IndySam

02-09-2008, 16:34

Who's farthest away?

Our closest is 300 miles. Doesn't make me real happy but I know there has to teams further away than that.

rwood359

02-09-2008, 16:34

Now, how about posting all of the documentation for the rest of us?

BrianT103

02-09-2008, 16:38

EricH

02-09-2008, 16:38

Now, how about posting all of the documentation for the rest of us?They're supposed to. Closest team with one: 330 and friends. Info distribution is already planned.

rwood359

02-09-2008, 16:39

Who's farthest away?

Our closest is 300 miles. Doesn't make me real happy but I know there has to teams further away than that.
All the Hawaii teams are about 2500 miles away from a beta. International teams are probably even worse off.

Akash Rastogi

02-09-2008, 16:42

woot woot 103!:D

I so can't wait to hear what these guys have in store for all of us PA and NJ teams. Should be seeing some pretty sick ideas.

Even if your team didn't receive a new system, would teams care to share some innovative ideas they have and sent in with their application? I for one want to see the ideas some teams have of what they will try with the new system.

These are some ideas that my friends and I had that we will be implementing during the season hopefully. All student ideas and we have planned how they would work. Please post up any ideas you have.

Greg Needel

02-09-2008, 16:43

Odd

No teams in New England at all. No teams even close geographically.

WPI has at least one since they are doing the libraries, maybe they are the hub for NE

AcesPease

02-09-2008, 16:44

WPI has at least one since they are doing the libraries, maybe they are the hub for NE

Oh. I was not aware of that. They would be pretty close for most of NE. Thanks.

Travis Hoffman

02-09-2008, 16:47

Perhaps someone should consider starting a new thread soon, starting with the list of beta test teams and ideas for coordination of testing and documentation communication efforts?

Akash Rastogi

02-09-2008, 16:53

I suggest thread titles from teams heading up their areas. IE:

"Beta Testing with team 103- NJ, PA, NY"

whoever creates the threads, please try to keep them in the same format so its easier for teams to find what they're looking for.

+0.02

Jon236

02-09-2008, 16:59

Since the Beta Test Teams will have a copy of the beta template including sub-vi's, I hope this will be posted so that all of us can become familiar with the code.

Joe Ross

02-09-2008, 17:06

I put together a quick map (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF&msa=0&msid=105245687741583698394.000455efc4db5a0572547)o f all the beta test teams.

I think the closest teams geographically are 340 and 1114, but there is that pesky thing called a border between them. Other then that, there seems to be at least around 300 miles between beta test teams.

ATannahill

02-09-2008, 17:11

YEAH TEAM KRUNCH!!!

sorry for the teams that didnt get them

Arefin Bari

02-09-2008, 17:13

I am glad to see that at least one team from Florida will be receiving this beta system. I hope team 79 can give us a demo at Mission Mayhem and TNT.

ATannahill

02-09-2008, 17:21

we plan to demo at TNT, Mission Mayhem and Robot Rodeo

weinbergmath

02-09-2008, 18:03

Congratulations to all the teams selected!

I want to make a request of those teams selected. Testing the system at the sophisticated end of applications will certainly help work the bugs out of the system (which is the point of a beta test.) Our proposal was based on creating a scripting language similar to what Robolab provides teams in FLL so that the less experienced teams would have less of a curve, and could piece together an autonomous program as FLL teams currently do.

While there are a number of reasons I feel this is necessary, one was to dissolve some of the mystery surrounding an effective autonomous that seems to limit many NYC teams from even attempting it.

I know that the selected teams have a lot of work ahead of them. I also don't know if teams have already planned to do what I propose (in which case, would certainly explain why they were selected!) If this is the case, I apologize for being redundant.

If teams have not proposed this, I ask that in the course of creating a detailed test plan for the 15th, the selected teams also include a plan for development of some additional tool that will directly benefit rookies, along with documentation that will help them use it during the 2009 season.

Just a suggestion - I can't wait to hear about how the playing is going!

Congrats again,

Evan

garyk

02-09-2008, 18:37

we plan to demo at TNT, Mission Mayhem and Robot Rodeo

We (668, Apes of Wrath) will be showing the beta system at CalGames (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67985), Oct. 25, 2008 at Archbishop Mitty High School, San Jose Calif.

The West Coast got three Beta Test systems:

330 BeachBot, Hermosa Beach, CA (Los Angeles area)
1425 Error Code Xero, Wilsonville, OR (Portland area)
668 The Apes of Wrath, San Jose, CA (Silicon Valley), about halfway between 330 and 1425.

Thanks to Joe at 330 for the quick map (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF&msa=0&msid=105245687741583698394.000455efc4db5a0572547)!

Gary

ttldomination

02-09-2008, 19:11

Uh, yeah, 1848 in our area, SOUP!.

Does anyone have their website?

ATannahill

02-09-2008, 19:24

Uh, yeah, 1848 in our area, SOUP!.

Does anyone have their website?
i do not have SOUP's website, Team 79's website is Krunch79.com, although we have no info on there about the Beta yet.

Akash Rastogi

02-09-2008, 19:28

i do not have SOAP's website, Team 79's website is Krunch79.com, although we have no info on there about the Beta yet.

SOUP not SOAP:p

SOUP does not have a website on TBA.

ATannahill

02-09-2008, 19:32

SOUP not SOAP:p

SOUP does not have a website on TBA.
fixed

garyk

02-09-2008, 20:08

We (668, Apes of Wrath) will be showing the beta system at CalGames (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67985), Oct. 25, 2008 at Archbishop Mitty High School, San Jose Calif.

The West Coast got three Beta Test systems:

330 BeachBot, Hermosa Beach, CA (Los Angeles area)
1425 Error Code Xero, Wilsonville, OR (Portland area)
668 The Apes of Wrath, San Jose, CA (Silicon Valley), about halfway between 330 and 1425.

Thanks to Joe at 330 for the quick map (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF&msa=0&msid=105245687741583698394.000455efc4db5a0572547)!

Gary

And I was remiss in not naming our partners, 100 (Woodside) and 254 (Bellarmine), both award-winning teams; my apologies. We've got plenty of work for all three of us!

Travis Hoffman

02-09-2008, 20:17

Other then that, there seems to be at least around 300 miles between beta test teams.

we plan to demo at TNT, Mission Mayhem and Robot Rodeo

We (668, Apes of Wrath) will be showing the beta system at CalGames (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67985), Oct. 25, 2008 at Archbishop Mitty High School, San Jose Calif.

I mentioned this before, but now that the teams have been announced, I think it bears repeating.

My apologies if this is already a part of beta tester plans, but well, I don't know that yet. I expect the beta testers will soon share their plans to deploy information to the rest of us. :)

I'm sure this is obvious, but the vast majority of FRC teams will not be able to attend local offseason events or any demos or seminars beta test teams may hold at their facilities. Posting videos online, and enabling online access to your most beneficial informational sessions (via live webcast or videoconference, if resources permit; additionally, via video or voice archiving after the fact) would serve the greater community at large.

Joe's map illustrates the large gaps that exist within the beta tester net (all of Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio is one such gap). Such gaps are inevitable given the limited number of control systems available. As beta test teams are out of physical reach of most of the FRC community, I encourage you to use Internet multimedia to bring remote teams closer to you and make the online learning experience almost as good as being there.

Of course, substance is much more important than style, and time is of the essence, so I will forgive y'all if the presentation of the online resources is a bit rough around the edges, as long as the core content is meaningful. You can always "make it pretty" later. :p

Good luck, and thanks to all who are taking up this challenge for the betterment of all. :)

DonRotolo

02-09-2008, 20:42

Team 103 is honored to be selected as one of the beta testing teams. Over the coming weeks we will be posting updates, on a separate thread as to what types of meetings and seminars we will be hosting to educate the surrounding teams.
In this case, the people making the decision have chosen wisely.

From my point of view, all it means is that I'll have to drive a bit further to visit. Please be sure to post somewhere a list of when you'll be meeting, and where, as you should expect frequent visitors. Matter of fact, all the beta teams really need to do this.

Some teams won't be able to visit, so beta teams, please post videos, photos, words, whatever - let's stretch communication technology a little here! - so the rest of us can see just how good you really are...

Don

ATannahill

02-09-2008, 20:44

We will post information online, including our software (labview). Other useful information like guides and probably media will be posted. From all 18 teams most resources and topics will be covered.

Karthik

02-09-2008, 21:06

BornaE

02-09-2008, 21:46

Since the Beta Test Teams will have a copy of the beta template including sub-vi's, I hope this will be posted so that all of us can become familiar with the code.

We might not be allowed to publish the codes when we get it. But as soon as we have the permission to publish it, I would be happy to do so.

Aidan F. Browne

02-09-2008, 23:42

Thanks to the WFA committee for processing a crazy number of beta applications and narrowing it down to a great list of 18 -- it could not have been easy.

And, congrats to the 18 beta teams! If there are gremlins in the system, we, the FIRST community, will deal with them.... you just need to find them for us. Now go forth and test, test, test!

Jeremy Roberts

02-09-2008, 23:48

Uh, yeah, 1848 in our area, SOUP!.

Does anyone have their website?

SOUP and the GT RoboJackets who host the GA training sessions (Technology Enrichment Sessions) are working together and applied under the SOUP (1848) team number (as they are mentors and a sponsor). Currently information will be going out in our area via their website (www.robojackets.org). The SOUP website is under construction and if used they will update their TIMS profile and let the teams know. They are waiting to hear from FIRST HQ in regards to when information can be release and when it can be incorporated into the sessions (on campus and remotely). If you have any questions feel free to direct them my way.

Justin Montois

03-09-2008, 00:15

For Team 340, I want to say that we are extremely excited for the opportunity to test the new control system.
We have a large density of teams in our immediate area and we will work closely with those teams yet at the same time we recognize the scarcity of this opportunity and will try our best to supply all teams with the very best information possible.

2009 has begun and we can't wait to start doing some Beta testing!

Dancin103

03-09-2008, 13:21

Team 103 is honored to be selected as one of the beta testing teams. Over the coming weeks we will be posting updates, on a seperate thread as to what types of meetings and seminars we will be hosting to educate the surrounding teams.

I could not have said it better myself. We are truly more than honored to have been selected. Being the only team in the entire northeast. This is amazing. And yes we will be hosting seminars and such for any one who would like to attend, and I am sure that Brian or I will be making some posts. Congratulations to all the other teams that have received the system and good luck to everyone. If you have any questions feel free to PM me.

Cass :)

ttldomination

03-09-2008, 15:22

SOUP and the GT RoboJackets who host the GA training sessions (Technology Enrichment Sessions) are working together and applied under the SOUP (1848) team number (as they are mentors and a sponsor). Currently information will be going out in our area via their website (www.robojackets.org). The SOUP website is under construction and if used they will update their TIMS profile and let the teams know. They are waiting to hear from FIRST HQ in regards to when information can be release and when it can be incorporated into the sessions (on campus and remotely). If you have any questions feel free to direct them my way.

So, just to make sure, are the open sessions going to be held at GA Tech? or are they going to be held at SOUP's official location?

Libby K

03-09-2008, 15:56

Just a reminder to all Beta Test teams. In order to get your controller you must sign the FIRST disclosure agreement. This form "indicates your team agrees to disclose information on the new control system when FIRST gives permission to do so during the beta testing process and not before." (Bolding added for emphasis). So before you start making plans on when and where you plan on holding seminars, remember that we have to wait until FIRST authorizes us to release information. I just don't want anyone putting their cart in front of their horse.

Karthik's post needs repeating. FIRST is very serious about disclosures, and the beta teams should remember not to put any information out before they're allowed to- or they could lose their test system. That doesn't benefit ANY of us here.

So, remember...
disclose information on the new control system when FIRST gives permission to do so during the beta testing process and not before.

Greg Needel

03-09-2008, 16:06

I thought I would just post a reminder out there about being respectful and understanding of the teams who were selected for this beta test. I am sure that all the teams chosen will do their best to bring the information to the community.

That being said please remember a few things.

each team was selected for a reason, and why that may not be clear trust the people who did the picking
While suggestions for things you would like to see are always good, don't get upset if it doesn't happen. Each team will have their own test plan and you should respect that.
If you are on a team who was not selected for the beta test it doesn't mean you aren't capable, it just means you didn't fit this time. It might have been location, skill set, or a bunch of other variable that are unknown. Whatever the reason don't take your frustrations out on the teams that did get selected.
FIRST is having teams selected sign a Non-disclosure agreement, which has the ability to limit the flow of information from beta teams to the public. Be aware that even if a beta team wants to tell you something they may be legally bound not to.

I am sure there are a few other things that teams should think about but ultimately it comes down to this. FIRST is doing us a favor by even allowing this beta test to happen, don't turn it into a bad thing. Lets try to avoid the saying: "no good deed goes unpunished" and leave the teams who are putting the hard work in for all of us with a good feeling at the end of this by not criticizing them.

Madison

03-09-2008, 16:11

FIRST is having teams selected sign a Non-disclosure agreement, which has the ability to limit the flow of information from beta teams to the public. Be aware that even if a beta team wants to tell you something they may be legally bound not to.

I understand that, at some level, having some access to the system at all early is a good thing, but the notion of limiting the information that's made available to other teams is completely absurd and seems counter intuitive to the criteria team applications were judged upon.

OZ_341

03-09-2008, 16:39

I could not have said it better myself. We are truly more than honored to have been selected. Being the only team in the entire northeast. This is amazing. And yes we will be hosting seminars and such for any one who would like to attend, and I am sure that Brian or I will be making some posts. Congratulations to all the other teams that have received the system and good luck to everyone. If you have any questions feel free to PM me.

Cass :)

Team 103 certainly has the technical know-how, the facilities, the ability to help and the organizational skills needed to make this a success.

FIRST made an excellent choice in selecting Team 103.

Congratulations!

=Martin=Taylor=

03-09-2008, 17:12

Greg Needel

03-09-2008, 17:17

I understand that, at some level, having some access to the system at all early is a good thing, but the notion of limiting the information that's made available to other teams is completely absurd and seems counter intuitive to the criteria team applications were judged upon.

Possibly, but l will play devils advocate for a second. I am team X who is in the beta test and we hit a snag when downloading our labview code to the crio. Immediately we go to our blog and post about the error. Team Y from another state who is not in the beta test reads this and gets really panicked, and then they come post it on delphi and now there is a rumor that the crio has problems when you download code to it. When in actuality the team had the wrong port setting setup in labview and everything was fine. Having an intermediary such as FIRST or NI before info hits the public will be good in this situation.

Now one could say that if it hit the public someone might be able to quickly fix the problem. But as the complexity of the task increases it will be hit or miss if the problems can be solved.

From reading posts over the past year or so since the new control system was announced I have come to realized that people are very nervous about it and the last thing we need at this point is a mob mentality spreading rumors.

Cory

03-09-2008, 17:18

So how did the whole multi-team application thing work out? Did FIRST just pick one team on the application? I'm just curious.

Congratulations to team 668! And to our partner 254!

This will make for a fantastic display at CalGames, and perhaps a WRRF workshop?

We submitted 3 applications, all referencing one team (668) as our main applicant. I know a few other collaborations did as well.

rwood359

03-09-2008, 17:25

From reading posts over the past year or so since the new control system was announced I have come to realized that people are very nervous about it and the last thing we need at this point is a mob mentality spreading rumors.
I don't believe that the non-beta teams need access to the daily trials and tribulations of the beta teams, however I do believe that the remaining teams should have access to the technical documentation that is being given to the beta teams. If need be, include a disclaimer that the documentation is beta and may or may not reflect the final documents.

B.Johnston

03-09-2008, 21:47

I don't believe that the non-beta teams need access to the daily trials and tribulations of the beta teams, however I do believe that the remaining teams should have access to the technical documentation that is being given to the beta teams. If need be, include a disclaimer that the documentation is beta and may or may not reflect the final documents.

Here I would respectfully disagree with you.

In 20 some years in the field of technology based controls I have seldom learned much when every thing went right.

The best education came from experiencing the "trials and tribulations" involved in developing new knowlege and understanding.

Not that we need to see the semi-hysteria surrounding the bane bots transmission failures again, we did however, see some valid growth in how to tackle a serious problem from within the first community.

My vote is for the conservative publication of all development issues so that next january we'll have some idea of just what the questions are.

If history is an indicator, we'll always have someone who inadvertently repeats the errors of the past, but learns from it.

P.S. I'd like to just see the thing up close.

rwood359

04-09-2008, 00:14

Here I would respectfully disagree with you.

In 20 some years in the field of technology based controls I have seldom learned much when every thing went right.

The best education came from experiencing the "trials and tribulations" involved in developing new knowlege and understanding.

Not that we need to see the semi-hysteria surrounding the bane bots transmission failures again, we did however, see some valid growth in how to tackle a serious problem from within the first community.

My vote is for the conservative publication of all development issues so that next january we'll have some idea of just what the questions are.

If history is an indicator, we'll always have someone who inadvertently repeats the errors of the past, but learns from it.

P.S. I'd like to just see the thing up close.

I don't disagree with you.

The requirement of openness in the announcement and the NDA warnings seem at odds. This is only my first month mentoring, so I haven't seen the reported panics that mis/partial information have caused.

It's part pure curiosity and part self-preservation (a ton of new information and kickoff coming like a runaway train). My real concern is getting the technical documentation.

What does WPILib contain?
How do we interact with the I/O?
Is there a timed control loop?
Is it multi-threaded/multi-tasked?
What Wind River tools are we going to have?
What features will be in the FIRST specific LV that is being supplied?

If we at least know the structure of the default program and the abilities of the underlying system, we can start to consider approaches.

I realize that the beta program is probably a check of the documentation as much as of the hardware. The announcement said that shipments of the systems would start on Sept. 15th. so if it is going to be a serial process of release to the beta teams, update, and then release the remaining teams, the non-beta teams are probably not going to see the documents for 8-12 weeks.

The first rev of technical documents are usually full of ambiguities that the writers and the people close to the project don't see because the resolution is obvious to them. I would like to see all of the documentation available and a forum where we can start commenting and asking questions as soon as possible.

BornaE

04-09-2008, 01:29

Notice that the Beta teams are supposed to sign a Disclosure agreement, so they will release all their findings when authorized by FIRST. I am sure FIRST has a well thought plan to release the information.

Rumors wont do anything other than hurting the integrity of the community.

Here is a great example.
All most of the people on here know is that team are supposed to sign an NDA. and everyone is arguing about it. while they have no idea what it is actually about. and we don't even know weather FIRST plans to release the documents to everyone or not.

So just hold your breaths for a couple of weeks till we have more information and don't judge FIRST's or the Beta Testers Plans with the limited information available as of now.

Thank You

ps. We are as eager to spread accurate info as soon as possible as you are to get the info.

rwood359

04-09-2008, 02:35

Notice that the Beta teams are supposed to sign a Disclosure agreement, so they will release all their findings when authorized by FIRST. I am sure FIRST has a well thought plan to release the information.

Rumors wont do anything other than hurting the integrity of the community.

Here is a great example.
All most of the people on here know is that team are supposed to sign an NDA. and everyone is arguing about it. while they have no idea what it is actually about. and we don't even know weather FIRST plans to release the documents to everyone or not.

So just hold your breaths for a couple of weeks and don't judge FIRST's or the Beta Testers Plans with the limited information.

Thank You

ps. We are as eager to spread accurate info as soon as possible as you are to get the info.
In truth, a voice of reason. I'll keep quiet and see what is forthcoming.

ps. I grew up in your area. I graduated from Meas High in 1962 and ASU in 1967. If it's OK, I'll PM you next time I'm going to be there visiting my family. I'd like to see your operation.

ericand

04-09-2008, 17:09

I asked about when and what we get to share as soon as I got the notice that we were in the Beta program and I saw the NDA.

The response I got back was that the timeline and parameters will be listed on the Beta Team web site, which we will get access to once we complete the registration process.

I'm sure that we will make our experiences known as soon as we are allowed.

I would be curious to know how many teams are planning on using Lab View vs how many are planning on using C++ (Workbench).

Aidan F. Browne

04-09-2008, 17:16

I would be curious to know how many teams are planning on using Lab View vs how many are planning on using C++ (Workbench).
Hopefully the Beta program has half the teams use LabView and the other half Workbench in order to assure that we test it all.

BornaE

04-09-2008, 17:19

Dowjonesbotics

04-09-2008, 19:54

Congrats 1114, we can't wait. (Not like this was obvious 1114 would get it):p

Robostang 548

05-09-2008, 07:38

I realize that the beta program is probably a check of the documentation as much as of the hardware. The announcement said that shipments of the systems would start on Sept. 15th. so if it is going to be a serial process of release to the beta teams, update, and then release the remaining teams, the non-beta teams are probably not going to see the documents for 8-12 weeks.

The first rev of technical documents are usually full of ambiguities that the writers and the people close to the project don't see because the resolution is obvious to them. I would like to see all of the documentation available and a forum where we can start commenting and asking questions as soon as possible.

Is there any word yet on when WPIlib is gonna be released. I read somewhere that there would be an initial release of some code around this time and that the final release would come with the 2009 electronics kit. I know the beta teams will get a chance to use it now but will non-beta teams be able to take a look at the code?

RoboMom

05-09-2008, 12:40

A housekeeping issue:
If you are one of the selected teams, you should have received an official notification of Beta team test status and a follow-up email.

If you haven't: contact frcteams@usfirst.org

Apparently some spam filters have been working overtime for some email addresses.

Kevin Sevcik

05-09-2008, 15:11

I won't really speak to the issue of the NDA and whether it makes sense, as it's FIRST's decision and they obviously have their own opinion on whether rumor mongering and misinformation will be better or worse in an information vacuum... But I do have a suggestion for them and NI, since I haven't seen any indication that someone has already thought of it.

Obviously, they want to get info out to teams as quickly as possible once they decide it's appropriate. Presumably, they want to expedite the training process for teams by requiring the beta test teams to hold seminars and release code and etc. But they must surely know that the training and code releases are fairly meaningless to any teams that don't actually have the coding environment to work in. Trying to work with and learn from Labview code when your Labview install doesn't have the required modules and you don't have the subVIs is about as productive as trying to learn about the .NET APIs by looking at someone else's code in notepad. It's possible, but it's going to be slow, painful, and incomplete. As I recall, it's not even possible to do some of the things you need to without the Labview RT module. So teams giving seminars could be in the difficult position of having to demonstrate everything in step by step cookbook fashion thoroughly enough that the attendees will be successful when they finally have software to work with.

I know FIRST has pledged to get hardware and software to registered and paid teams as soon as feasible, but even then that doesn't help rookies and teams that can't get money right away. Given FIRST's close partnership with NI, though, there's a pretty simple and cool solution. NI has an online demo environment of Labview that's kitted out with every module available. You can't load or save external files of course. But I don't think it would be incredibly difficult for NI to set up a second, FRC only server that's running the version of Labview we'll be using and that's pre-loaded with the default code and tutorials. In fact, you could even update the environment on a regular basis to update the FRC support code, add new tutorials, post beta test teams' example code.... All sorts of things. I, personally, think this would be a brilliant way of making training extremely accessible to any team that wants it and doesn't happen to live near a beta site. Like, london, or brazil, or a rather large percentage of the US.

BornaE

05-09-2008, 16:43

Sounds like a great idea, specially with LabView
I won't really speak to the issue of the NDA and whether it makes sense, as it's FIRST's decision and they obviously have their own opinion on whether rumor mongering and misinformation will be better or worse in an information vacuum... But I do have a suggestion for them and NI, since I haven't seen any indication that someone has already thought of it.

Obviously, they want to get info out to teams as quickly as possible once they decide it's appropriate. Presumably, they want to expedite the training process for teams by requiring the beta test teams to hold seminars and release code and etc. But they must surely know that the training and code releases are fairly meaningless to any teams that don't actually have the coding environment to work in. Trying to work with and learn from Labview code when your Labview install doesn't have the required modules and you don't have the subVIs is about as productive as trying to learn about the .NET APIs by looking at someone else's code in notepad. It's possible, but it's going to be slow, painful, and incomplete. As I recall, it's not even possible to do some of the things you need to without the Labview RT module. So teams giving seminars could be in the difficult position of having to demonstrate everything in step by step cookbook fashion thoroughly enough that the attendees will be successful when they finally have software to work with.

I know FIRST has pledged to get hardware and software to registered and paid teams as soon as feasible, but even then that doesn't help rookies and teams that can't get money right away. Given FIRST's close partnership with NI, though, there's a pretty simple and cool solution. NI has an online demo environment of Labview that's kitted out with every module available. You can't load or save external files of course. But I don't think it would be incredibly difficult for NI to set up a second, FRC only server that's running the version of Labview we'll be using and that's pre-loaded with the default code and tutorials. In fact, you could even update the environment on a regular basis to update the FRC support code, add new tutorials, post beta test teams' example code.... All sorts of things. I, personally, think this would be a brilliant way of making training extremely accessible to any team that wants it and doesn't happen to live near a beta site. Like, london, or brazil, or a rather large percentage of the US.

DonRotolo

05-09-2008, 21:00

Apparently some spam filters have been working overtime for some email addresses.That's their job :yikes: Too bad they're so good at it...
NI to set up a second, FRC only server that's running the version of Labview we'll be using
I second the idea that it would be great. I'll leave it to NI to determine if it is feasible for a new site, or if some minor 'changes' to their existing site would permit the same functionality, but wow, that would be way too cool.

BTW, go and hug your local NI rep today...:D

Don

Jack Murphy

06-09-2008, 11:56

Kevin Sevcik

09-09-2008, 10:35

What an incredible Opportunity! My favorite community has been given a chance to Prove it.

Real words, txt, etc. Flying around our Earth.

I’ve had the benefit of being on the list of a few of the Beta Teams.
Holy Smokes Friends, their plans far exceed what is being discussed here.

Define, Attack and Disseminate. They are so excited.

So…
There will be many sources of information.

Will CD be one?
NDA notwithstanding, can we have posts that begin, “My guess”, and
“I read somewhere” and on and on?

I am soooo looking forward to what all/y’all come up with.

.
To borrow a meme, NDAs is serious business. If I were you, I'd caution your contacts in the beta program that even talking about their plans might be problematic. They need to carefully read and understand the NDA to know what they can and can't talk about. Beta team members hiding behind "I guess" etc simply won't stand up if FIRST were to seriously pursue the matter. The law isn't going to care if you're being coy, it's going to care if you disclosed the information. Similarly, if a beta team talks to you and you start being coy on CD, the beta team would still be in trouble. The worst part, of course, is that now that you've mentioned that you have contacts on beta teams that talk to you about things you need to be careful about what you say. Why? Because if you start being coy (and correct) now and FIRST decides to be serious about this, they could provisionally assume that one of your contacts broke NDA and start looking into the matter, etc.

So really, it's probably better all around if the beta teams don't talk much till FIRST lifts the NDA and we don't pester them with questions and idle speculation.

PS. Yes, I realize just how silly it is to call for CDers to not idly speculate about something like this.

Waynep

10-09-2008, 16:39

Possibly, but l will play devils advocate for a second. I am team X who is in the beta test and we hit a snag when downloading our labview code to the crio. Immediately we go to our blog and post about the error. Team Y from another state who is not in the beta test reads this and gets really panicked, and then they come post it on delphi and now there is a rumor that the crio has problems when you download code to it. When in actuality the team had the wrong port setting setup in labview and everything was fine. Having an intermediary such as FIRST or NI before info hits the public will be good in this situation.

Now one could say that if it hit the public someone might be able to quickly fix the problem. But as the complexity of the task increases it will be hit or miss if the problems can be solved.

From reading posts over the past year or so since the new control system was announced I have come to realized that people are very nervous about it and the last thing we need at this point is a mob mentality spreading rumors.

First off I'd like to congratulate and thank the 18 Beta Test Teams. You have undertaken a great task on building our communal knowledge foundation on the new control system. With that said, Beta Teams be warned I'm sending all the non-Beta teams after you guys.

With regards to the flow of information, we need to keep in mind that FIRST has asked the teams to sign a DISCLOSURE agreement, not an all encompassing non-disclosure agreement (NDA). FIRST is providing guidelines as to how it would like the information to be disseminated, their intent, as they've increasingly demonstrated recently, is to have as much open sharing of appropriate information as possible. Greg nailed it in his earlier post a lot of it is trying to prevent a mob mentality and provide a safety check for posts. Keeping the discussion focused and appropriate will be more productive and allow teams to quickly pick up what's relevant and necessary without reading through all the idle chatter.

I want to point out that the disclosure agreement also serves the practical purpose of requiring teams not to disclose the contact information of FIRST staff/Beta Test Support members. The staff supporting the beta test will have their hands full in supporting their efforts as well as getting ready for the '09 Control system launch. Being inundated with requests would diminish their abilities to serve the Beta test teams and complete their tasks for the entire FIRST community.

FIRST is venturing into uncharted waters in this new era of information sharing and FIRST community involvement to which I think they should be commended. I've been assured that there will be a healthy number of Beta Support personnel, and the Forum Moderators will be actively working to get productive discussion approved and posted as quickly as possible. Let's give them a chance and play by the rules they specified and try it out.

Teams, FIRST has not restricted your interactions with Beta test teams, so do get involved, send e-mails, offer to help, make arrangements to get over there to observe and participate. I'd be lying if I told you that I wasn't nervous :ahh: about the transition to the new control system, but knowing that we have a lot of FIRST teams working together provides some SOLID comfort that we'll get over any bumps together and things will be alright.

FIRST has also not restricted Beta Test teams on showing the control system at public events, so be prepared to see it at off-seasons and other demos and have questions ready for those teams.

Alright Beta Test GAME ON

Kims Robot

11-09-2008, 11:35

Definitely a big Congrats & Good Luck to the Beta Test Teams... you have A LOT of work ahead of you!!

I have to say Im sort of suprised/sad to see how quiet this has all gotten all of a sudden, for something that so many teams (well at least 159) were excited about, it all seems on lockdown. I havent read the actual document that the teams had to sign Disclosure or Non-Disclosure, however it reads, but I guess I sort of expected the Beta test teams to be looking for input for their test plans. I know a few threads (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68634) were generated, and perhaps some of the teams are discussing on their own forums or lock down forums or via email with local teams, but I would guess that the formation of the test plans could use input from any teams with ideas, and other than the quietness on CD, I havent seen much of anything on the FIRST forums (am I missing something?), and no real Beta test discussion on the NI forums.

I was thinking of maybe looking up all the websites of the beta test teams and checking their forums... I'll post that later if I find anything useful. We are fortunate to have a team within an hours drive of us, but I have to imagine this is painful for the teams that arent within weekly driving distance.

EricH

11-09-2008, 11:51

I'm thinking that part of the quietness has to do with the beta test teams not having their units yet. The other part, of course, is the disclosure/NDA.

ATannahill

11-09-2008, 13:49

can brandon set up a forum or subforum for the beta teams to release info, when they have permission

Brandon Martus

11-09-2008, 13:53

can brandon set up a forum or subforum for the beta teams to release info, when they have permission
There already is a subforum (Technical -> Control System -> FRC Control System (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=176) ) for discussion of the new control system. That is probably the most appropriate place to put things ..

BornaE

11-09-2008, 14:20

I'm thinking that part of the quietness has to do with the beta test teams not having their units yet. The other part, of course, is the disclosure/NDA.

We dont have any more info about anything yet. we are waiting for FIRST too.

Karthik

11-09-2008, 14:58

Definitely a big Congrats & Good Luck to the Beta Test Teams... you have A LOT of work ahead of you!!

I thought 1511 was a Beta Test team? Didn't you submit a joint application with all the Rochester teams?

DonRotolo

11-09-2008, 17:14

I have to say Im sort of suprised/sad to see how quiet this has all gotten all of a sudden
Heh. The quiet before the storm....
beta test teams not having their units yet. The other part, of course, is the disclosure/NDA.In contact with a beta team - in which nothing was disclosed, I assure everyone - it was stated "We had to to sign an disclosure affidivavit that does not allow us to talk to teams until FIRST gives us permission." The rest of the message was basically saying 'we'd like to make plans, but we just can't at the moment, please be patient'.

So, to me, the teams still need to get some direction from FIRST, and then I predict the floodgates will open....

Don

prashil27

11-09-2008, 21:30

Hi guys, my name is Prashil Patel from Team 1727 REX, I just had a question that..how can we buy a new control system(beta Testing)...because we did apply for beta testing but they didnt choose us..so we decided to buy one..but we r not sure where to buy it..can anyone please guide through??

whytheheckme

11-09-2008, 22:00

EricH

11-09-2008, 22:28

The quickest way to get one is to register and pay promptly.

http://forums.usfirst.org/showpost.php?p=16965&postcount=4

Travis Hoffman

12-09-2008, 06:50

Heh. The quiet before the storm....

One expects the storm itself will not be quiet (I've already dealt with one "Quiet Storm" - former #1 Browns pick Courtney Brown from Penn State, and I was less than enthused), and that the "winds" blowing in from beta tester land will be fierce. :p

prashil27

12-09-2008, 22:43

thank you very much guys!!

Travis Hoffman

13-09-2008, 01:43

I was thinking of maybe looking up all the websites of the beta test teams and checking their forums... I'll post that later if I find anything useful.

Perhaps this might be of use?

http://sites.google.com/a/neofra.com/2009controlsystem/

This is a Google Site I have put together to try and organize 2009 control system related information for the local teams in my area. I expect it to change and evolve greatly in the coming weeks. We'll see where it goes.

Collectively, I haven't seen much activity on the beta tester websites I could locate, but I didn't expect to find much of anything....yet. Beta Test Teams/Groups - as this project continues, feel free to point out links to new information that doesn't yet appear. I'll update the NEOFRA site links accordingly.

Team 39's group appears to intend to share information online with the rest of us, via their forums. They've already posted a link to a LabVIEW training video. Thanks to them for taking the early initiative!

Beta Testers - No one is more in tune with your operations than you are. If I make any mistakes or omissions in what I post to the Google Site, you are welcome to contact me via the NEOFRA email address and provide better link information for the benefit of all. :)

For now, I'm just being proactive in setting this up during the "calm before the storm", as Don put it. I've got the patience to wait until the teams actually RECEIVE their systems before expecting information to flow.

Anyone in the community is welcome to suggest new content links for the site above should they discover something useful that the NEOFRA site hasn't caught. This includes some "Web Gems" - videos, NI demo software links, online tutorial links, etc. that aren't a part of any BT-published content. I expect to further categorize site links once specialized information begins to appear.

Finally, this site is not meant to supplant any centralized online repository of information FIRST might release in the future. It is primarily a resource for my local NEOFRA teams in Northeast Ohio, and I'll continue to update it to serve the best interests of that group. I provide the link to the community at large it in the hope that it might also become beneficial to even more FRC teams. However, neither I nor NEOFRA provide any guarantees to that effect. Everyone is welcome to browse the site at your own risk. :)

We are fortunate to have a team within an hours drive of us, but I have to imagine this is painful for the teams that arent within weekly driving distance.

Yes, quite. The Internet is our friend...only if FIRST and Beta Test Teams choose to utilize it as a means to reach the teams that cannot be present in person.

JaneYoung

14-09-2008, 23:02

I've been wondering if it would it be helpful to suggest that teams put 'Beta Test Team' under their username and/or in their signature along with link information they wish to provide.

BornaE

15-09-2008, 00:24

I've been wondering if it would it be helpful to suggest that teams put 'Beta Test Team' under their username and/or in their signature along with link information they wish to provide.

Sounds good
Done

GaryVoshol

15-09-2008, 12:25

Madison

15-09-2008, 12:30

Once there's something to discuss, don't you all think that FIRST will provide a medium for that discussion/exposition to take place? Perhaps a moderated section of their forum, or maybe they'll set up a new blog.

I hope that FIRST will recognize that the teams themselves know the best way of communicating with those around them and that limiting a beta test team's avenues of discussion to only official, censored channels will impede discussion among teams that do not have a significant presence on the internet.

ATannahill

15-09-2008, 14:16

yes there will be a forum as mentioned on bills blog, also there will be demos and open meetings at the team's locationfor anyone that wants to visit. this is blanket across all beta teams.

Daniel_LaFleur

15-09-2008, 14:29

I hope that FIRST will recognize that the teams themselves know the best way of communicating with those around them and that limiting a beta test team's avenues of discussion to only official, censored channels will impede discussion among teams that do not have a significant presence on the internet.

And having blogs (or other such undocumented medium) on team websites would be better for those without a significant presence on the internet? or for those that are newer and have little information as it is?

Madison

15-09-2008, 14:37

And having blogs (or other such undocumented medium) on team websites would be better for those without a significant presence on the internet? or for those that are newer and have little information as it is?

Teams can best choose how to disseminate information to those in their area -- whether that be blogs, mailing lists, or face-to-face meetings.

There are teams in this area that we can communicate with via mailing list very quickly, but they are not plugged-in to this community or to communications from FIRST the same way that we are.

Beyond that -- even for folks who're tuned in to everything FIRST does -- I think there are significantly better ways of sharing and indexing information than in a blog.

I just think this is an instance where freedom to address the concerns and needs of the community you're serving outweigh the need for uniformity or control. Maybe that freedom will be available to teams. I'm just sayin' -- I hope FIRST agrees. They usually don't, though; at least not with me. :)

RoboMom

15-09-2008, 14:43

Teams can best choose how to disseminate information to those in their area -- whether that be blogs, mailing lists, or face-to-face meetings.

Can someone help define what is meant by "area"?
Thanks.

Madison

15-09-2008, 14:52

Can someone help define what is meant by "area"?
Thanks.

Well, given the number of teams with access to the control system, in this case I think "area" might be defined as "your own state and each one bordering it." :)

JaneYoung

15-09-2008, 15:06

It’s very clear that there are a very limited number of control systems available to beta test and that this isn’t the perfect solution to this particular problem. However, there will be teams kicking the tires - testing this system, and sharing what they discover/learn. That's a good thing.

I choose to trust the committee that chose the teams who made the decision to go through the selection process and who are ready to deal with this challenge. I have also found it very interesting and exciting that some teams in some of these areas are working together and that all of the teams are committed to getting helpful information out to the FRC community in the best way possible.

Alan Anderson

15-09-2008, 15:07

Can someone help define what is meant by "area"?

I suggest that the definition of a team's "area" is up to that team.

By the way, I'm thinking more of the teams that are not part of the beta. They're the ones who would decide where to travel if necessary in order to attend a beta test team presentation.

BornaE

15-09-2008, 15:08

This is from Bill's Blog,
Apparently there is going to be a private and a public Beta Testing Forum sections.

Beta Testing

Good Afternoon Teams,

As I'm sure you're aware, the Beta Test Team Kits start shipping today. Beta Teams will be receiving:

1 FIRST specific cRIO
2 analog modules
2 analog bumpers
2 digital I/O modules
2 pneumatic bumpers
1 digital output sourcing module
1 power distribution board

1 driver station
1 wireless adapter set
1 camera
2 joysticks
assorted cables and connectors
a DVD of software that will be shipped by NI
We're short a few items (we special ordered early editions of parts that are currently in production and one or two were damaged in transit) so we'll ship to the most distant teams first, and keep sending out kits as replacement parts arrive.

Digital Side Cars will be shipped separately the minute we receive them.

In the mean time, Beta Teams will have more than enough to get started with because they'll receive their invitations to join the Beta Test team private forum today.

The public Beta Test forum where everyone else can ask questions and Beta Teams can share updates will go live soon. I'll let you know the minute it's ready.

109 days to Kickoff. I'll see you there!

GaryVoshol

15-09-2008, 18:23

Well, given the number of teams with access to the control system, in this case I think "area" might be defined as "your own state and each one bordering it." :)So why would I want to know what HOT Team is doing, and not know what GRR or BeachBots are doing? (I think those are all beta-test teams). Having a central repository - as it appears FIRST is planning to do - would let me learn about discoveries made by teams in all areas of the country.

Madison

15-09-2008, 19:48

So why would I want to know what HOT Team is doing, and not know what GRR or BeachBots are doing? (I think those are all beta-test teams). Having a central repository - as it appears FIRST is planning to do - would let me learn about discoveries made by teams in all areas of the country.

Yep -- but having only a central repository and limiting the teams' discussions to that repository is less useful. That's all.

Cory

15-09-2008, 20:05

Yep -- but having only a central repository and limiting the teams' discussions to that repository is less useful. That's all.

The beta teams received an email today detailing how things will work. We can all post information in any location we please, we just have to post it on the central FIRST repository as well.

Andy Baker

16-09-2008, 00:03

The beta teams received an email today detailing how things will work. We can all post information in any location we please, we just have to post it on the central FIRST repository as well.

This is excellent news.

Today we are living in the information age. If we want an answer, we just Google it, text ChaCha, or go to ChiefDelphi. It's a hard habit to break.

FIRST has time to do this correctly, the best way they can. We just need to have some patience in this case, and wait a few days (or a week or so) until we get some answers. I am not only excited to see what these Beta Test teams come up with, but also how they communicate to the masses.

Have fun,
Andy B.

BornaE

16-09-2008, 01:27

If you go to http://forums.usfirst.org/ then click on "FIRST Programs" then click on "2009 FRC Control System Beta Test Public Forum" you get to here

http://forums.usfirst.org/forumdisplay.php?f=743

which would be the "2009 FRC Control System Beta Test Public Forum"

seanwitte

16-09-2008, 08:56

Yep -- but having only a central repository and limiting the teams' discussions to that repository is less useful. That's all.

How is having all of the information in one place less useful than having it spread across multiple web sites in disparate formats? They're doing the right thing by putting together a central portal.

Madison

16-09-2008, 11:38

How is having all of the information in one place less useful than having it spread across multiple web sites in disparate formats? They're doing the right thing by putting together a central portal.

I meant to say only that limiting teams to only a central, censored location might be a bad idea that doesn't serve teams as well as other methods. Nothing more, nothing less.

OZ_341

21-09-2008, 00:00

If you are within Driving Distance of Ambler, PA on November 8th, Team 103 will be holding seminars and demonstrations for the new controller at Ramp Riot 2008.

Ramp Riot is sold out but every interested team is welcome to stop by and learn about the control system on that day. You do not have to be a registered team to participate.

Thanks to Team 103 for making this possible!

More details will follow in the Ramp Riot thread. If you want to access general information about Ramp Riot (directions etc.) you can go to our CD thread or visit www.team341.com and click on the Ramp Riot link.

Hope to see you there.

Daniel_LaFleur

22-09-2008, 12:38

Teams can best choose how to disseminate information to those in their area -- whether that be blogs, mailing lists, or face-to-face meetings.

All of this does not help a rookie team that has no idea where these resources are located.

There are teams in this area that we can communicate with via mailing list very quickly, but they are not plugged-in to this community or to communications from FIRST the same way that we are.

Even to rookie teams that they do not yet know about?

Beyond that -- even for folks who're tuned in to everything FIRST does -- I think there are significantly better ways of sharing and indexing information than in a blog.

Agreed. But at least an official central repository can be e-mailed to any team that signs up for FIRST.

I just think this is an instance where freedom to address the concerns and needs of the community you're serving outweigh the need for uniformity or control. Maybe that freedom will be available to teams. I'm just sayin' -- I hope FIRST agrees. They usually don't, though; at least not with me. :)

Ensuring that all teams get all the same information is critical. Teams should not need to be plugged into the good ole' boys network to get the information that they need, it should be provided to everyone on an equal basis.

FIRST has done right by creating a central repository for work and requiring all teams to post their findings there first.

JM $.02

Travis Hoffman

22-09-2008, 13:47

Ensuring that all teams get all the same information is critical. Teams should not need to be plugged into the good ole' boys network to get the information that they need, it should be provided to everyone on an equal basis.

FIRST has done right by creating a central repository for work and requiring all teams to post their findings there first.

I agree. But as of Monday 9/22, the cupboard is still bare (http://forums.usfirst.org/forumdisplay.php?f=743).

At the very least, I'd think notifications of local beta tester demos at offseason events and such would start showing up in this particular subforum (http://forums.usfirst.org/forumdisplay.php?f=751) of the FIRST control system forums. As you said re: rookies - not all of them are hooked into the (I'll rephrase) "in the know" network, of which Chief Delphi certainly a part. I think it would be best if people would announce their demos on the FIRST-provided site, and then by all means extend their notifications elsewhere online by providing a link to the forums post.

I've seen notices for NI/LabVIEW/control system demo events posted to numerous subforums on CD. Even for veterans - it is very confusing to keep track of all of them. I ask everyone to consider following a unified method of announcing control system-related events online.

By posting only links to the central site, if any information is updated on the FIRST forums, it will be automatically captured everywhere else the link was posted. It won't have to be re-edited in multiple places, saving time and avoiding the risk of orphaned, conflicting information appearing online.

I know this is Common Sense and Organization 101, but I don't think it hurts to provide such gentle reminders of streamlined methods.

Conditioning all teams, vet and rookie, to visit central, common, consistent repositories of info and then reinforcing that knowledge with resources provided by local vet teams in the region seems like a logical course of action.

All this comes at one big caveat, though - how frequently will information be posted and updated to the central repository?

Per Bill Miller's blog, control systems were to ship 9/15 - a week ago. Without putting too much pressure on testing groups, I would personally like to hear/see some basic beta tester observations released soon - including whether or not you've actually received the systems.