Denying Students into class

[Torboticsmember]

Our team is going into our third year in the competition and like last year we have a class to go along with the competition. Since we try to be selective in the members that are aloud in the class, we have found 2 people that we do not believe will be able to live up to the expectations that we expect the students in the class to live up to. We have had input from their teachers and other students on the team that know them. What I am asking you is what is the best way to tell them with GP that we don't think they will be right for the class. But we are inviting them to still be on the team and work on the robot during the build season, and come to the competition.

Thanks
Torboticsmember

[JohnBoucher]

I don't believe that it is your choice who can be in the class. There is no GP way to deny them if they meet the requirements for the class.

Seeing how this program brings out the best in people, I would think you would want them there.

[wilsonmw04]

I don't believe that it is your choice who can be in the class. There is no GP way to deny them if they meet the requirements for the class.

Seeing how this program brings out the best in people, I would think you would want them there.

Agreed. This program is supposed to broaden the appeal of STEM, not to be a gatekeeper of knowledge. Let them in.

[vivek16]

I would say let them in also. It's their loss if they do not put forth the effort to succeed in said class but you don't have a right to deny them the chance.

-Vivek

[RyanN]

Even though this is a class, our team has set requirements for each of its students. Does the class have requirements? Certain grades? Teacher recommendation? Although this seems un-GP, this is how most things work. They're not going to hire you to work on the space shuttle if you got a bad grade in Calculus or if you do not get along with other employees.

[JaneYoung]

I don't know that there is enough information in the OP's post to make a clear assessment of criteria required for a robotics class.

That said, it would be the teacher's/administration's call, not the students.

If part of being on the FIRST team is curriculum based and assignments, productivity, journals, tests, etc. are part of the grade then this has to be taken back to falling under the school's responsibility to the students.

Bottom line, if it is a class and the students decide who can be in the class, that sends up a red flag for me, personally.

[whytheheckme]

If the actual issue is potential behavioral problems, or lack of work ethic, or both, I can give you an example as to how our team handles this.

We have open registration for our team in October, where anyone and everyone can apply. They simply fill out an application, with tons of questions, not just about their knowledge of robotics (this isn't so important), but also as to WHY they want to join the team, and what they think they will get out of the experience. After all of the applications are in, our three co-captains (students) and lead mentor (teacher) review the applications. Typically 90-95% of the students move to the next stage of the process. The other 5-10% will not, as to the discretion of the team leaders. These students are typically picked because, according to their application, they want to be on the team to exclusively 'hang out with their friends', 'go on trips', etc. While those are fun things involved with FIRST, if students do not express interest in the important things as well, we feel that the program is not for them.

After the students are selected to move on, they are required to show up to the weekly class scheduled during a multi-purpose block. Attendance is heavily weighted at the next cut. Students are broken up into the different groups during this class (electrical, mechanical, marketing, finance, etc.) The group leaders of each of these groups (we have somewhere on the order of 12 groups in our team, with a total of between 40 and 50 students) will have recommendations for each student at the time of the next cut as well.

This next cut is about mid-way through build-season. Their performance can be weighted along with their attendance and a few other factors, such as behavior (however a separate behavioral policy is also in effect, explained below.) Typically about 80% of the students make it through this cut.

The final cut is at the end of build season, when deciding who goes on what trips. Typically there are a few different travel categories (i.e. All remaining students at this point are allowed to travel to the Connecticut Regional (as we are in the hosting city) (and except for those students on suspension or probation from the team.) and another (smaller, probably about 75% of the remaining team) group that will travel to our second regional, and yet another to go to championships (if applicable.))

Behavior is a whole other situation. Minor behavioral problems are noted by sub-team leaders, and will be brought up at cut times. More major behavioral issues might warrant the issuing of a yellow or red card (different levels of probation) to a particular team member (these again, are heavily considered at cut times, as well as may prevent a student from being able to have certain responsibilities.) For much more severe problems, a student may be put on suspension, meaning that they can't participate on the team at all for the rest of the year. The worst situation for a student is being permanently kicked off of the team, without the chance to re-apply. Fortunately this has only happened on two occasions on our team (in it's 2.5 year existence.)

While we are an inter-city school with many cultural, and behavioral problems, we have set up a system that seems to work for us. Every student that wants to participate gets a chance to do so, and if they show effort and willingness to learn, get to reap the benefits.

Hope this helps!
Jacob

[Andrew Schreiber]

Team RUSH has always had an application process. We are required to put in resumes, have an interview, and get recommendations from our parents, our teachers. We also have to write several short essays. Students have been turned down.

On the topic of denying entry in a GP way, it should be done by the teacher of the course. They should be informed why they did not meet the requirements so over the next year they can work towards meeting them if this is something they want to do. Also, keep a record of who applied and why they were turned down. If they come back next year after addressing the issue then you may want to recognize this desire to better themselves.

To all the people who said that they should be allowed on because no one should be denied the chance to learn. Ive known several students who caused problems on RUSH and had to be asked to leave the team. If a teacher has to spend time disciplining kids that is less time they can spend teaching. It is not a decision to be taken lightly and it cannot be made solely by one person. Also, regarding the student input, I believe that students should not judge other students.

[Dan Petrovic]

There are a couple students on 166 that get into trouble and don't do well in school. How would we be helping them by denying them a membership on our team?

For many of these students, FIRST is the only lever that will get them to change their ways, do better in school, and stay out of trouble.

[Akash Rastogi]

I personally think we have some kids in the classes and on the team that shouldn't be there. But it is their choice, parents' and the school's choice.

[Koko Ed]

Our team is going into our third year in the competition and like last year we have a class to go along with the competition. Since we try to be selective in the members that are aloud in the class, we have found 2 people that we do not believe will be able to live up to the expectations that we expect the students in the class to live up to. We have had input from their teachers and other students on the team that know them. What I am asking you is what is the best way to tell them with GP that we don't think they will be right for the class. But we are inviting them to still be on the team and work on the robot during the build season, and come to the competition.

Thanks
Torboticsmember

If it's driven solely by the team then you should be able dictate who gets to attend competition and who doesn't. If it's school driven I would caution you on even thinking of denying anyone. The last thing school districts want to hear is an angry parent ripping their head off because their child cannot participate in a school activity because they are percived to be a problem. The school district will crack down on the team in a heartbeat. It's easier to deal with an unruly student than an uncooperative school administration.

[JaneYoung]

I personally think we have some kids in the classes and on the team that shouldn't be there. But it is their choice, parents' and the school's choice.

Here's a story from my college days.

Everyone had to have so many English credits. There was a class called Women's Lit and a bunch of football players signed up for the class thinking it would be an easy A, easy class.

One of the books that was read/discussed/studied was I Know Why The Caged Bird Sings, by Maya Angelou.

It was an intensive class with a lot of assignments and a lot of class interaction was required. Some of the football players dropped the course but some stayed and became active participants. At the end of the course, one of the guys told me it was the best class he had taken so far and he was glad he had overcome his preconceived notions towards the subject matter and the easy A. He made the decision to go the distance, do the work, and be open to a different way of thinking.

[artdutra04]

Don't make preconceived notions about the students. All students should have equal opportunities to learn.

Let them into the class. Introduce them to robotics, teach them. It make take some extra effort to teach them, and it may take an alternative channel to reach them, but be patient. If you are looking to teach higher level robotics concepts in the main course, then you should also have an intro level course in which you can refer them to.

If they express absolutely no interest in learning - or even attempting to learn - then you can ask them to leave the class if they are disrupting the class for those students who are interested in learning.

But just be cautious of falling into the "every student should perform the same" idea of No Child Left Behind. Some students will learn faster than others, and some will learn better through some methods (lectures, reading, hands-on labs, etc.) than others. Instead of expecting all to always achieve the same level, you should instead seek to challenge all students at levels equal to their learning speed/methods.

Education is one area where "one size fits all" never applies, so try not to mistake a slower learning student who struggles with some concepts for one who expresses no interest in learning them. Also realize that while not all students in FIRST will go into engineering professions, all of them will use the knowledge and skills learned through FIRST to better their lives, no matter what their ultimate career choice is.

[Pjohn1959]

To all the people who said that they should be allowed on because no one should be denied the chance to learn. Ive known several students who caused problems on RUSH and had to be asked to leave the team. If a teacher has to spend time disciplining kids that is less time they can spend teaching. It is not a decision to be taken lightly and it cannot be made solely by one person. Also, regarding the student input, I believe that students should not judge other students.

I could not agree more. We have always had an open door policy to any students wanting to be on the team. However, this program is not for everybody, and we have had to ask a few to leave. This has been done to keep the team focused and not distracted by the wanderings of some disruptive students. These have never been easy decisions. We believe in giving each student every opportunity to succeed, however, if their actions continue to be a hinderance to the team, then the student will asked to leave by the teacher.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Here's a story from my college days.

Everyone had to have so many English credits. There was a class called Women's Lit and a bunch of football players signed up for the class thinking it would be an easy A, easy class.

One of the books that was read/discussed/studied was I Know Why The Caged Bird Sings, by Maya Angelou.

It was an intensive class with a lot of assignments and a lot of class interaction was required. Some of the football players dropped the course but some stayed and became active participants. At the end of the course, one of the guys told me it was the best class he had taken so far and he was glad he had overcome his preconceived notions towards the subject matter and the easy A. He made the decision to go the distance, do the work, and be open to a different way of thinking.

Yes, some people should be pushed. If a student demonstrates a willingness to learn they should never be denied.I admire those students. Some students have a history of discipline problems. I am merely remarking that some students, such as ones who have been suspended for insubordination (by multiple teachers) don't belong on an FRC team. Yes they may shape up but at the same time, they could cause problems and negatively impact the learning of other students.

Perhaps the correct solution would be to let the students in as probationary members. Actually this should be done with all new students. Just to see if things work or not.

[Eugenia Gabrielov]

While I commend your concern for the performance of the team and the learning opportunities of existing team members, I feel as though you are not giving these students the chance you were yourself given.

Here are a few steps you might take to make sure that all students are afforded a proper chance, and to ensure that team standards are met.

- Get in contact with your teachers. Discuss your concerns. As a student, like it or not, you probably have little control over school enrollment. Dealing negatively with the school corporation might not just result in a lack of cooperation when you need something later - it could result in the abolishment of your class, your team or the removal of rights to use the school machine shop. This in turn will shine negatively on you as a team, as well as upon your sponsors.

- If there is not already a contract or constitution in place for your team, write one. If one exists, sit down and revise it with teachers, student leaders, and lead mentors. You might consider giving special attention to sections about student participation and class admission. However you choose to manage this issue is your choice, but you should try to create a system that will be used for class admission in the future. Pick a standard, and make sure all students are judged by it.

- Most importantly - ask yourself a few really hard questions immediately. How would you feel if your ability to join an organization was determined by other students? How well do your teammmates really know these individuals, and what are their relationships? You might be allowing personal biases to seep through. What could these students do to make your team better? What do they bring to the table?

As a student leader on your team, you are at this very moment a role model. Younger students and team members are looking at your for the call to make next. The maturity with which you handle this matter may set a tremendous standard for your team, and I believe that you have the capability to set that bar high.

[Richard Wallace]

It's a strange sign of progress that this topic is being discussed.

In a bygone era when Nixon was president, I was part of a small group that kept A/V equipment running (e.g., fixed the 16mm projectors, set up microphones for school assemblies, etc.) in the back room of my high school library. Our group dreamed of future technologies, but we never dreamed of turning students away. That was the kind of thing that the un-nerdly groups did to others, often including us. The soundbite version of my thought is that I was a nerd when nerds were decidedly not cool.

I have to side with those who answer the OP's question by saying don't turn anyone away.

This discussion goes to the heart of what we are all aiming for. As wilsonmw04 points out:This program is supposed to broaden the appeal of STEM, not to be a gatekeeper of knowledge.And I agree. So, what is your aim? Do you want your school's robotics program to be a class, a club, or a clique?

[GaryVoshol]

If this is a regular school class, then the school administration (principal, counselors, etc) have the say on who gets in. It will be based on prerequisites, meeting requirements, most likely class standing, and unfortunately in a few cases it will be based on parents that complain the most.

If the class is part of the team structure, part of being in the club, then the admittance requirements may be governed by school policy. For example, our district has a policy of a minimum grade point average to be involved in any extra-curricular activity - whether that be robotics, the football team, SADD, or the forestry club. It matters not how beneficial the activity would be for a student or the community - if the student can't keep up his grades, he's not on a team or club.

The team also has had an application process, simply to ensure that all who show up have at least a minimal level of interest. It's easy to show up at a meeting and say, "I'm on the team." If the student has to write a couple of short essay answers and get a teacher recommendation, there's more commitment.

I don't know what the response would be if all the answers came out, "To hang with friends and get a few days off of school on trips." Nor if the student couldn't find any teacher willing to recommend her. I don't think that's come up.

We have had to deal with a few behavior issues on prior teams, had to put restrictions on team members when their grades slipped, or had to drop team members for non-attendance. When the last happened, it generally was a mutual thing - the student stopped coming, the team didn't expect him any more, and if he had shown up 2 days before leaving on a regional or championship trip he would have quietly been told by a mentor that he wasn't going because of his attendance.

[ttldomination]

1. If they want to be in the class, then that means that they are willing to stake their grade at the expense of learning about robots. That marks determination, Freshman don't know a lot about robots in general, but that doesn't mean that we won't let them on the team.

2. When freshman come in the fall, they have no clue what to do, I didn't, so it is up to them to take the initiative to learn and ur job to teach.

[AdamHeard]

Can you explain to us what the difference is between being on the team, and being in the class? Also, can you explain the leadership in place that allows you as a student to make this decision.

[Cory]

If they meet the minimum requirements to be on the team, you could end up in a very sticky situation with the school administration/school board if you turn them away.

That said, we've never had the luxury of having so many people want to be on the team that we've had to limit membership. If they're interested, even if you think they may not be a good fit, there's no reason not to give them a chance. If it turns out that they are disruptive or a problem, you can try to work it out, or remove them from the team at that point.

[Torboticsmember]

First off I want to thank everyone for the feed back i have gotten on this.

And I will try to clear up any miss information I had in the first post
1. It hasn't been the students decision to either let them in the class or not. The students have given their opinion on whether or not they would think the applicants would be good for the class or not. But it will be the teachers who make the final decision.

2. The teachers have taken the opinions of the other students in the class (obviously trying to decide whether the opinions are because of bias or not) and we have also asked the student's various teachers to fill out a report on the students based on the traits we think will be good for the class.(All students had to go through this process, even the already existing members)

3. We aren't basing the decision on grades because we have had students on the team who did not do so well in class, but were driven, and did extremely well in robotics, and after joining they improved their grades.

4. I can't stress this point enough we do not want to deny them from being on the team, but only the class. They would still be able to help design and build the robot.

So I can give you a picture of the team there are three sections of the team. We have the "club" part of the team. This includes people who are interested in the team but have expressed that they do not wish to actually work on the robot. This will be used for fundraising, events, awards, and other very important tasks. The second section are those who will come after school during build season and work on the robot, and when we have other attractions that we will attend. These people will also be in the club. This section is for students that apply (an open application, with an essay explaining why they want to be on the team) before the build season starts, but after the school year has begun. Finally we have the class, these students are usually at least second year students or have shown a deep interest and an understanding of the commitment needed to be in the class. As part of being in the class you also have to work at least x number of hours during the build season that is decided by the teachers of the team during the first semester of school. And also you are in the club and help with fundraising and other projects.

5. Normally the second section of the team is used as a stepping stone into the class. If they show a dedication and a strong interest during the build season, which most do, and are a freshmen, sophomore, or junior we will invite them to join the class the next year. Unfortunately the students in question were not on the team last year and have not shown an interest to one of the teachers or the leaders of the team before they signed onto the class, or the understanding of the dedication needed to be in the class.

And I did make a mistake, we haven't decided to not let them in yet the teachers are still trying to decide. The question was just a precaution

[Koko Ed]

First off I want to thank everyone for the feed back i have gotten on this.

And I will try to clear up any miss information I had in the first post
1. It hasn't been the students decision to either let them in the class or not. The students have given their opinion on whether or not they would think the applicants would be good for the class or not. But it will be the teachers who make the final decision.

2. The teachers have taken the opinions of the other students in the class (obviously trying to decide whether the opinions are because of bias or not) and we have also asked the student's various teachers to fill out a report on the students based on the traits we think will be good for the class.(All students had to go through this process, even the already existing members)

3. We aren't basing the decision on grades because we have had students on the team who did not do so well in class, but were driven, and did extremely well in robotics, and after joining they improved their grades.

4. I can't stress this point enough we do not want to deny them from being on the team, but only the class. They would still be able to help design and build the robot.

So I can give you a picture of the team there are three sections of the team. We have the "club" part of the team. This includes people who are interested in the team but have expressed that they do not wish to actually work on the robot. This will be used for fundraising, events, awards, and other very important tasks. The second section are those who will come after school during build season and work on the robot, and when we have other attractions that we will attend. These people will also be in the club. This section is for students that apply (an open application, with an essay explaining why they want to be on the team) before the build season starts, but after the school year has begun. Finally we have the class, these students are usually at least second year students or have shown a deep interest and an understanding of the commitment needed to be in the class. As part of being in the class you also have to work at least x number of hours during the build season that is decided by the teachers of the team during the first semester of school. And also you are in the club and help with fundraising and other projects.

5. Normally the second section of the team is used as a stepping stone into the class. If they show a dedication and a strong interest during the build season, which most do, and are a freshmen, sophomore, or junior we will invite them to join the class the next year. Unfortunately the students in question were not on the team last year and have not shown an interest to one of the teachers or the leaders of the team before they signed onto the class, or the understanding of the dedication needed to be in the class.

And I did make a mistake, we haven't decided to not let them in yet the teachers are still trying to decide. The question was just a precaution

Which regional do you guys attend and is it local?

[Torboticsmember]

We attended two this past year.
Bayou Regional- it's our local regional
and Peachtree Regional

[EricH]

What I do at work (a go-kart track) is, if they meet minimum height, they ride, even if it's just barely. If they get in trouble, slow them down to the next speed, if available. If they still get in trouble, they have to leave the track and ride a "smaller" one.

Let them into the class, provided they meet the minimums and the teachers choose to allow them. If something goes wrong, send them to the "second section" of the team and ask them to take the class next year, when they understand more.

Lack of "correct" interest should not be a deterrent. Back in the day, students might join teams just for a "free" trip to Disney World. They learned things along the way, though, I bet. (I think it's safe to assume that some of them still hang around FIRST, though they'd be in college or the workforce now.)

[smurfgirl]

As some people pointed out, just because it appears that someone might not be right for a team or the class, you won't really know until you've given them a chance. There are so many FIRST "success stories" from students on different teams, where being a member of a robotics team has turned their life around, whether by changing their outlook on life, their attitude, their appreciation for learning, their career path, their friendships, or many other things. Robotics can be a great constructive activity for people who might otherwise be considered "unruly" or "bad students", and I don't think it's right to deny them a chance. On my team, I have watched several students learn and grow into more mature, respectful people with a passion for engineering and talent individual areas. If our team had denied students the rights to participate before giving them the chance, they never would have had the opportunity to grow in this way. I know these "success stories" exist outside of my team, so I'd like to suggest that you give everyone the chance to join your robotics class.

If your team is absolutely positive that you want to deny people the opportunity to be in the robotics class, you are definitely going to have to go about it carefully.
- Like someone else mentioned, if your team is affiliated with your school, which it sounds like it is, upset/offended parents might go complain to the school administration, which can potentially cause a slew of negative consequences for your team.
- Make sure you have a clearly defined set of requirements for class entry, so that the decision does not seem arbitrary or subjective- you want to make it look very objective, based on definitive guidelines so that there is less room for argument and problems.
- Also, you definitely want to have your head teachers/coaches/mentors making the decisions, not your students. This will also make the decision seem more fair and less arguable, as it isn't about cliques and social standings for the adults, but it could be blamed on that if it is a student's peers making the decision not to allow him onto a team.
- Finally, make sure it is explained to the student exactly why he was denied permission to join the robotics class; what criteria didn't he meet, what could he work on for the future? Be nice about it, thank him for applying and encourage him to apply again in the future. (Don't be surprised if he doesn't, though, there might still be some hurt feelings/bruised egos left behind.)

Good luck with everything, I hope I helped!

[samir13k]

Our team is going into our third year in the competition and like last year we have a class to go along with the competition. Since we try to be selective in the members that are aloud in the class, we have found 2 people that we do not believe will be able to live up to the expectations that we expect the students in the class to live up to. We have had input from their teachers and other students on the team that know them. What I am asking you is what is the best way to tell them with GP that we don't think they will be right for the class. But we are inviting them to still be on the team and work on the robot during the build season, and come to the competition.

Thanks
Torboticsmember

The situatuion on our team may be different then yours, but we don't deny anyone. If they would like to participate, we will find something for them to do. Granted, it is nice to have people who know what they are doing right off the bat, but the only good way for them to learn is by having them see what's going on. They may not be the best to have there for the first year, but by the second season they should have plenty enough wisdom to get stuff done.:rolleyes:

[Molten]

IF they meet the criteria to join: let them join. Don't refuse entry because they might be a problem. Take them in, try to teach them, and if they do as you suspect they will boot them. Have them drop the class after the first semester. Fail them. Give the work to students that will do it and give them simple things that "even a cave man can do it". I give everyone a chance. That is the GP way. If they don't take advantage of that chance, I am not to blame. Just a suggestion.

[Zak698]

Agreed. This program is supposed to broaden the appeal of STEM, not to be a gatekeeper of knowledge. Let them in.

I completely agree with them. I was president of team 698 during the 2008 games. i have now graduated and am a mentor for the team. Our school also has a class to go along with the club, it is set up as a open to everyone, but if they were fooling off or not doing anything at all they would get transferred out of the class.

[catsylve]

To deny a student the opportunity to learn is always a mistake. My second year teaching I started keeping a folder of things that showed me that giving someone a chance had made a difference. The folder is OVERFLOWING after 15 years.

There was a point for every single one of us that we didn't know where we were going or what we would do. School is the place we hope to show them. This is why I teach in a public school and always will. Those difficult students need to be in your class and learn from you as well as the teacher. You don't have to be a teacher to make a difference in their lives. Caring role models will do the same.

[thefro526]

Give them a chance, it's that simple. After a month or so if they don't live up to your team and class standards then ask them to leave. Odds are, if they haven't left on their own then they do fit into the program.

In my opinion there are a lot of kids on my team who shouldn't be but they are also the kids who aren't involved very much so it really doesn't matter. If you look at it those who want to be there, even if it's to go on trips or to hang with friends, they will work hard for what they want. And if they get inspired along the way then it's a bonus.

[Carlee10]

I think that this is a tricky tightrope to walk. If they meet requirements, but you don't think they'll be able to go those few extra steps to really get it, then thats a hard call to make. If you see the potential, then at least let them try. If you don't want to give them a flat no, then tell them that would benefit most from waiting, unless they're going to be senoirs, in which case I would let them join.

I understand about having cooperation and communication and good feelings in a workplace. Sometimes ours gets out of whack, and a couple of things happen. First, we don't get things done. Second, somebody usually ends up getting insulted. Third, it's usually louder from all the yelling that's going on. Everybody agreeing and getting along and having a common passion and goal is just as important, to me, as meeting the "requirements". You could have the best grades, reccommendations, and be Ken Jennings, but if you don't mesh well with the others and don't have the same apparant drive and passion, I think it's right to say let's wait, or give them a trial run.

I don't really see this as denying them learing,seeing as they're still on the team, but rather as a way to keep harmony. If they really want to be in the class, they'll change or they won't. If you let them in and it works out, great! If you do and it doesn't, well, you need to be more careful. If you tell them to wait and it works out later, than fine, that was a good decision. Based on what Torboticsmember said, this is pretty much how I'd look at this.

[dtengineering]

You say that the decision of who is in the class is up to the teacher. Fair enough... there are, presumably, limited class spaces and demand for the spaces exceeds supply. In that case it makes sense to ration the spaces to those most likely to benefit from the spaces.

However if it is the teachers' decision, then it is also the teachers' responsibility to discuss this with the students in question.

NOT yours.

You can offer encouragement, support, etc. but the responsibilty to communicate the decision lies with the person who makes the decision.

Jason

[nlknauss]

I've worked with some teachers who share the motto, "Teachers have the right to teach, students have the right to learn."

I am sure that your school district would not want to deny these students the opportunity to learn, even if the class is directly related to the team. So work with these students and help them take advantage of the opportunity to be class. Inspiration can happen anywhere at anytime.