Sport or not? [Archive]

Jeff K.

07-08-2008, 17:29

If we put aside any other negative or positive connotations with sport and look at the definition. Other sports like baseball, football, running, cycling, or basketball may have blemished the term sport. In the past, I've done baseball, lacrosse, swimming, and cycling. Although FIRST is nowhere near as physically extreneous as these sports, there are physical aspects to it.

Some people do sport also to train, get in shape, or meet others. To this definition, FIRST applies, train for the future, get in shape with tools and mallets, and meeting others on your team and other teams.

Another definition of Sport is:
Physical activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively.
Human players do get fairly physical, and so do drivers as they get robots on and off the field and while driving. The pit crew joins them in getting physical as they work on the robot. Scouts get physical as they go around the pits. Rules, game rules we are given each year.

Another definition:
One known for the manner of one's acceptance of rules, especially of a game, or of a difficult situation.
ex: What a good sport, he shook the hands of the opposing team after the game.
Sounds like something FIRST has been trying to teach.

According to these definitions, FIRST is a sport. According to my definition of a fun recreational activity, FIRST is a sport as well. Play on!:rolleyes:

EricVanWyk

07-08-2008, 17:29

I'd imagine that Dean refers to robotics as a sport because sports is the closest analogy to FIRST that most people have.

FIRST is not a sport. Robotics is not a sport. Overdrive is not a sport. That would be degrading it. However, it depends how you define sport, because if you define sport very liberally, it might be considered a sport. I also, personally don't consider NASCAR, or things like chess sports, but this thread isn't about that.

Sir, allow me to violently agree with you for a moment.

Sport is an activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively. Sports commonly refer to activities where the physical capabilities of the competitor are the sole or primary determiner of the outcome (winning or losing), but the term is also used to include activities such as mind sports (a common name for some card games and board games with little to no element of chance) and motor sports where mental acuity or equipment quality are major factors. (--Wikipedia)

Professional Baseball/football/etc are degrading to other sports. Some folks down play the word "sport" in association with FIRST because of this popular degradation.

thehurd03

07-08-2008, 19:45

FIRST IS NOT A SPORT!

First IS an addiction, obsession, and an enslavement,

But best of all it's the way of life we all have chosen to follow.

AdamHeard

07-08-2008, 20:10

Hmmmmm,

I've always considered a sport a physical thing, and haven't really considered FIRST a sport ever.

However, it still is an exciting, competitive event. So, the title really doesn't matter to me.

Lil' Lavery

07-08-2008, 20:46

Try searching, there have been plenty of threads on this matter.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67754&highlight=SPort is one of them.

Actually no Michelle, that isn't what that thread is about. That is a different discussion weighing the pros and cons of FIRST's culture becoming sport-like. It's not a debate as to whether or not FIRST is a sport.

EricH

07-08-2008, 21:35

If ESPN shows it, it's a "sport", right? If so, poker is a sport (definition-wise, it's a game). FIRST beats poker at being a sport. (Not to mention that ESPN used to show FIRST championships, IIRC.)

Different people will see it different ways. I think it's a sport for the mind.

smurfgirl

07-08-2008, 21:47

Different people will see it different ways. I think it's a sport for the mind.

Interesting point.

As some pointed out, FIRST is being explained and marketed as a sport. There are a lot of aspects of it that are in-line with the definitions of sports (also outlined in other posts above). However, robotics is certainly not seen as a traditional sport.

My conclusion: yes, it is a sport, albeit a non-traditional one.

Qbranch

07-08-2008, 22:09

Robotics is not a sport, but then again I don't consider automobile racing a sport either.

HOWEVER, as others have stated, I'll chime in. FIRST is an awesome outlet for the competitive energies of kids who usually don't fit too well in other things, and sometimes end up barely if ever using their skills.

I only wish I'd known about FIRST my freshman year! :(

-q

thehurd03

07-08-2008, 22:32

in the end, everyone has there own opinions, even if Dean Kamen himself came out and said First is an official sport, people will still have their own thoughts, and ten years from now when First will be switched in for baseball as America's pass time, there will still be doubts as to if First is a sport.

Kyle Love

07-08-2008, 22:43

acdcfan259

07-08-2008, 22:48

JaneYoung

07-08-2008, 22:54

... ten years from now when First will be switched in for baseball as America's pass time, there will still be doubts as to if First is a sport.If this were to happen, then there will have to be a huge shift in understanding among many FIRSTers and FRC teams regarding the importance and value of engineers, technologists, scientists, inventors, and professionals as members of the teams and as mentors. There will have to be acceptance within the community in order for acceptance to be found elsewhere as a national/international sport.

That means the emphasis will continue to be placed where it has been and belongs - inspiring the educational pursuits of the students in these areas and in recruitment on every level, continuing the circle/cycle through generations. Sustaining quality FIRST teams should be an on-going long term goal.

thehurd03

07-08-2008, 23:14

I'm going to try and make a Venn diagram in text, with instead of similarities in the middle the middle is first.

Chess is considered a Game and not a Sport, it is because,
1. It involves no more physical exertion than lifting a finger.
2. It is a competition for the mind.
3. You can have John Doe walk off the street, and learn Chess and all the good techniques in one hour

Baseball is considered a sport, this is because,
1.It involves a lot of physical exertion, when your not busy being a bench-warmer.
2. Joe Shmoe can't walk off the street and be good at it.
3. It is a game of entertainment.

First takes from the aspects of a game and a sport in a couple of ways,
1. You don't have to be super fit to be in first, but you can't be all flab either, sometimes depending on the machine your using you can "feel the burn".
2. First robotics competitions can be entertaining, but I know many people that come to learn more about robotics.
3. It draws from Chess in that it is a game for the mind.
4. It draws from baseball in that it takes a lot of training.

Now this might be a silly conclusion but it's a conclusion none-the-less.

I propose a hybrid. Since it is neither sport nor game but draws from both types of competition.

It's a Gorte

Or a half sport

thehurd03

07-08-2008, 23:17

If this were to happen, then there will have to be a huge shift in understanding among many FIRSTers and FRC teams regarding the importance and value of engineers, technologists, scientists, inventors, and professionals as members of the teams and as mentors. There will have to be acceptance within the community in order for acceptance to be found elsewhere as a national/international sport.

That means the emphasis will continue to be placed where it has been and belongs - inspiring the educational pursuits of the students in these areas and in recruitment on every level, continuing the circle/cycle through generations. Sustaining quality FIRST teams should be an on-going long term goal.

I guess you didn't sense the sarcasm or the wishful thinking in my text.......

JaneYoung

07-08-2008, 23:20

I guess you didn't sense the sarcasm or the wishful thinking in my text.......

Indeed, I did.
And I saw it as more...
an opportunity. :)

Arthur S

07-08-2008, 23:52

I've always thought of sports as activities that challenge the body more than the mind. I think that robotics challenges mind over body so i wouldn't really consider it a sport.

Protronie

08-08-2008, 00:18

FIRST is NOT a sport. The most physically unfit person in the world could be awesome with FIRST.

Racing in most cases, can be considered a sport due to the extreme G forces placed on the body and the fitness required to be able to do what they have to do. Mainly, open wheeled cars require the driver to be fairly fit. NASCAR, not so much.

First students train just as hard if not harder than most football players, racers, or any other athlete your likely to find.
Their training is just more mental than physical.
Look at the intent, focused look of the drivers and operators at the matches.
Reminds me of a wrestler sizing up his opponent. Or a high stakes poker player going all in on a river card.
I don't know a sport that requires as much dedication from the athlete as a First student during build season. What other sport only gives you six weeks to get ready to compete? The lack of sleep alone ,add to it the physical building of the robot is as much pressure as any swimmer or golfer, but then you consider them sports.
Like in football, wrestling, lacrosse, and football...
There is blood,sweat, and tears in robots too.
THAT makes it a sport.

IMO yes, FIRST is indeed a sport... and I'll put the endurance of a FIRST robot driver against any basketball or baseball player you care to hand a joystick to.

-p :cool:

AdamHeard

08-08-2008, 00:51

First students train just as hard if not harder than most football players, racers, or any other athlete your likely to find.
Their training is just more mental than physical.
Look at the intent, focused look of the drivers and operators at the matches.
Reminds me of a wrestler sizing up his opponent. Or a high stakes poker player going all in on a river card.
I don't know a sport that requires as much dedication from the athlete as a First student during build season. What other sport only gives you six weeks to get ready to compete? The lack of sleep alone ,add to it the physical building of the robot is as much pressure as any swimmer or golfer, but then you consider them sports.
Like in football, wrestling, lacrosse, and football...
There is blood,sweat, and tears in robots too.
THAT makes it a sport.

IMO yes, FIRST is indeed a sport... and I'll put the endurance of a FIRST robot driver against any basketball or baseball player you care to hand a joystick to.

-p :cool:

I disagree.

I train kickboxing, wrestling, grappling, etc... (known as MMA).

I've worked hard at robotics, hell, I'd even say In many cases I'm the hardest worker on my team. The "blood, sweat, and tears" in robotics is nothing near a real sport, with real physical exhaustion.

like I said before, it's a support, but still an awesome competition.

vivek16

08-08-2008, 01:39

Another definition of Sport is:
Physical activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively.
Human players do get fairly physical, and so do drivers as they get robots on and off the field and while driving. The pit crew joins them in getting physical as they work on the robot. Scouts get physical as they go around the pits. Rules, game rules we are given each year.

I get physical while building the robot. Things often need a bit of "persuasion".

I think that although robotics is not exactly a sport, it should get all the recognition that sports get, all the privileges sporting teams get, and more.

-vivek

JohnBoucher

08-08-2008, 06:38

"Sports" are nothing more than entertainment. There is no "VALUE" created beyond the entertainment. It doesn't make our cars run cleaner, grow better crops or clean polluted water.

FIRST creates value. FIRST makes society better through this collaboration between mentors and students. The FIRST program allows both the students and mentors to see the possibilities. It gives value in both directions.

The lessons of FIRST in the short term makes you a better student. The long term value is in how you react to the challenges that you will face in life. As a student you took on an impossibly hard challenge with an impossible time constraint and made it happen. That lesson will serve you well in the future.

Not Sport

GaryVoshol

08-08-2008, 08:04

First students train just as hard if not harder than most football players, racers, or any other athlete your likely to find.
Their training is just more mental than physical.By that criteria, engineering and surgery are sports. Along with most any other profession and many hobbies.

FIRST has sport-like qualities: the competition to be sure. But how many times have you heard that the best thing about sports is the character building that goes on? FIRST has that too.

That doesn't make it a sport, any more than the teamwork, dedication and effort make playing in a symphony orchestra a sport.

Let's leave it at what it is - a great tool for inspiration and learning. With a heck of a lot of fun along the way.

IKE

08-08-2008, 09:17

Wikipedia:
"Sport is an activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively. Sports commonly refer to activities where the physical capabilities of the competitor are the sole or primary determiner of the outcome (winning or losing), but the term is also used to include activities such as mind sports (a common name for some card games and board games with little to no element of chance) and motor sports where mental acuity or equipment quality are major factors."

I have always considered FIRST Competitions a subset of Motorsports. I have always defined Motorsports as a competition where machines are doing most of the "work", but are not able to perform well without human interaction.
These would include, any motor vehicle racing (from faster lap to endurance like solarcar), motor driven freestyle competition (Drifting to Monstertruck Freestyle). All of these are competitions with powered machinery. It also fits into this model as most teams are highly involved in the preparation for an event, but the driver does most of the actual competing.

I have played many sports in High School, and have participated in many motorsports. Many motorsports can be as physically demanding as almost any traditional sport, but usually they are not. That being said I have seen some really out of shape people play many sports (even at the professional level).

So to conclude, if you put Motorsports as a subset of Sports, then yes the FIRST Competitions are Sports. If you give Motorsports it own category on the same level as "Sports" then no it is not a sport.

I make sure to site the words "FIRST Competitions" to both include FRC, FTC, and FLL as well as seperate it from the rest of FIRST (learning, GP, and all the awards for things you have done).

On a side note: Please be careful devaluing "Sports" as having no positive impact. If more people participated in more physical activity, there would be a huge benefit to national Health. While the sport is merely there for "Entertainment" these entertainers are indirectly responsible for many jobs including engineers and construction crews building stadiums, and broadcasters presenting this entertainment. All of these things have significant value to the global economy and the quality of life. This entertainment has also given many students that are economically challenged a way to get a college education.

tennispro9911

08-08-2008, 09:55

First students train just as hard if not harder than most football players, racers, or any other athlete your likely to find.
Their training is just more mental than physical.
Look at the intent, focused look of the drivers and operators at the matches.
Reminds me of a wrestler sizing up his opponent. Or a high stakes poker player going all in on a river card.
I don't know a sport that requires as much dedication from the athlete as a First student during build season. What other sport only gives you six weeks to get ready to compete? The lack of sleep alone ,add to it the physical building of the robot is as much pressure as any swimmer or golfer, but then you consider them sports.
Like in football, wrestling, lacrosse, and football...
There is blood,sweat, and tears in robots too.
THAT makes it a sport.

IMO yes, FIRST is indeed a sport... and I'll put the endurance of a FIRST robot driver against any basketball or baseball player you care to hand a joystick to.

-p :cool:

I've personally worked harder at FIRST than anything else, and harder than any other student on my team. However, the level of physical exertion is nothing compared to what my sister had to do for gymnastics.

Oh yeah, I'm the driver. I know how hard it is. There is a high level of precision needed, but the skill involved doesn't compare to how hard it is to hit a major league fastball, or to return a serve in tennis thats hit at 155 mph.

FIRST is a competition. FIRST is an obsession. FIRST is a way of life. FIRST is entertainment. FIRST is NOT a sport. FIRST is better.

sgreco

08-08-2008, 10:54

FIRST is a competition. FIRST is an obsession. FIRST is a way of life. FIRST is entertainment. FIRST is NOT a sport. FIRST is better.

You're right. FIRST is all of those things.

The way I see it FIRST is not a sport. FIRST deserves the recognition of sports, it is just as fun as sports(actually it's more fun than sports). In many cases FIRST is more useful in life than sports.

To compare FIRST to sports and to call FIRST a sport are two different things. When explaining FIRST to people that don't know about it, comparing it to a sport is a great way to do it. Often times, comparing it to a sport gets people interested.

I agree with both sides of this discussion. Everyone has good points that make me think about it. Overall I agree agree that "FIRST is better." I think FIRST isn't a sport, but if we ever decide definitively that it is, I would have no problem with that.

Either way FIRST is FIRST, sport or no sport, and it is totally awesome both ways.

Carlee10

08-08-2008, 11:24

Wow. I didn't know there were so many sides to the issue. Somehow, I just automatically assumed everyone shared the same opinion on this.......that was stupid of me. I consider FIRST to be an "alternative sport". It is similar to a sport in many ways except for, it seems in this thread, is the lack of physical exertion. which I can understand, but as we all know, we aren't all built like Shaq or Lance Armstrong. There also probably just as many rules in basketball or football as there are in FIRST. On the other hand, if we have to be recognized as a "sport" by schools to get funding and other things(like respect...), no I don't want FIRST to be considered a sport for dignity's sake. I myself don't especially care either way(which is why I didn't vote ;mine would've been in-between), but it's interesting to read everybody else's comments. I also like what Ike had to say:

"On a side note: Please be careful devaluing "Sports" as having no positive impact. If more people participated in more physical activity, there would be a huge benefit to national Health. While the sport is merely there for "Entertainment" these entertainers are indirectly responsible for many jobs including engineers and construction crews building stadiums, and broadcasters presenting this entertainment. All of these things have significant value to the global economy and the quality of life. This entertainment has also given many students that are economically challenged a way to get a college education."

That's a good point. A very good point indeed.

My point being, overall, that if we want the respect we should get, I think we should be considered a sport. If we want to nitpick, we're kind of a sport, but actually more different, with sport-like qualities.

I hope this all makes sense. I had a lot of random thoughts reading this thread. All considered things aside, I still love FIRST, so none of it really makes a difference.

smurfgirl

08-08-2008, 11:35

I propose a hybrid. Since it is neither sport nor game but draws from both types of competition.

It's a Gorte

Or a half sport

That's another really good point. Obviously it doesn't match perfectly to either category, which is why we are debating it. Why force it into an existing category when it doesn't really fit in either. Let's make it its own classification, one that really fits. It's part game, part sport, but not really either.

Jeff K.

08-08-2008, 11:43

John, this isn't a flame at you. I have great respect for you, but I'm just using some of your quotes to get my thoughts flowing.
"Sports" are nothing more than entertainment.

You might want to watch out when you say that. I'm not exactly sure olympic athletes training all their lives for the most grueling two and a half weeks of competition would like to know that they are doing nothing more than entertaining.

I don't see sports as only a thing to watch on the TV or to buy tickets to go see in a stadium or arena. Seems that's how most Americans see it as we are one of the most obese nations in the world. There's the whole participatory aspect to it as well.

There is no "VALUE" created beyond the entertainment. It doesn't make our cars run cleaner, grow better crops or clean polluted water.

I know one sport shaping the future of the global automotive industry..Formula 1. Many of the advancements in that field of motorsports are being put back into our own cars for daily use. Making cars more aerodynamic, efficient, better handling, better stopping, more reliable, and the list goes on. Next season they're going to work on implementing KERS (http://www.motorauthority.com/news/motorsport/brake-energy-regeneration-in-f1-by-2009/) in the cars to further their efficiency. It's a CVT that engages during braking to capture extra kinetic energy to put it to use. Some neat stuff that will help to make cars run cleaner.

What made the world so polluted in the first place? Industry, cars, factories. Getting away from these and using alternative forms such as maybe walking or cycling or even skateboarding from here to there will help make us less reliant on cars.

Like others mentioned, I see FIRST on the same level as motorsports. The vehicle, or car is just the means for teaching. There's a lot that can be learnt from Rally racing, Formula 1, A1GP, Baja, etc.

FIRST creates value. FIRST makes society better through this collaboration between mentors and students.

The same could be argued about the YMCA, or club teams, or soccer teams. Working with the coaches, the students build a relationship and have a rolemodel. Sports were a big one during the a|n|t|i|d|r|u|g campaign. Students were doing something better and more beneficial during their time and were building character and value. They valued themselves and their teammates.

You might not all see sports the same way as I do, and we will all still have our own little disputes about different topics. Still seems pretty evenly divided (36-27) as to whether or not FIRST falls into the categories of Sport. I see it has the positive attributes of a sport, but won't be an olympic sport anytime soon. However though, it has been featured in ESPN.

acdcfan259

08-08-2008, 12:36

"Sports" are nothing more than entertainment. There is no "VALUE" created beyond the entertainment. It doesn't make our cars run cleaner, grow better crops or clean polluted water.

Really? How many people show up to watch track meets that aren't family?

No value. I can say that I've learned more about myself from XC and Track than from robotics. While the community may not gain anything from sports, almost everyone who participates in a sport has a personal gain.

Sports weren't created for entertainment, they were created as a way to have fun, as a game. Even today you'll hear athletes say, "At the end of the day you just gotta go out there and have fun."

I have a feeling that most people on here haven't actually participated in a sport beyond little league. So we're getting a major bias. Until you actually participate in a sport in high school or wherever else, you don't really fully understand sports.

tennispro9911

08-08-2008, 13:21

Really? How many people show up to watch track meets that aren't family?

No value. I can say that I've learned more about myself from XC and Track than from robotics. While the community may not gain anything from sports, almost everyone who participates in a sport has a personal gain.

Sports weren't created for entertainment, they were created as a way to have fun, as a game. Even today you'll hear athletes say, "At the end of the day you just gotta go out there and have fun."

I have a feeling that most people on here haven't actually participated in a sport beyond little league. So we're getting a major bias. Until you actually participate in a sport in high school or wherever else, you don't really fully understand sports.

I agree. I've learned a ton from sports. I have had so many life lessons because of tennis. Robotics has taught me a ton too, but I've only been involved with FIRST for 2 years while I've been around tennis for 18 years, I played soccer starting at 4 years old, I played hockey at 4, and I played baseball for a few years.

Sports (should) teach lessons through a head fake of sorts. I played tennis when I was really young, got mad, and smashed my racket on the court. It became oddly shaped because of that, but my parents forced me to play with that racket for a year or so. Due to that, I gave much more value to my possessions. This is just one example of how someone would learn a lesson through sports. Sports are important for more than just physical activity.

However, I don't think I degrade sports when I say that I think FIRST is better. I understand (mostly) the benefits of sports. I've been a sports person my entire life, and will play Division 3 tennis.

sgreco

08-08-2008, 15:27

Really? How many people show up to watch track meets that aren't family?

No value. I can say that I've learned more about myself from XC and Track than from robotics. While the community may not gain anything from sports, almost everyone who participates in a sport has a personal gain.

Sports weren't created for entertainment, they were created as a way to have fun, as a game. Even today you'll hear athletes say, "At the end of the day you just gotta go out there and have fun."

I have a feeling that most people on here haven't actually participated in a sport beyond little league. So we're getting a major bias. Until you actually participate in a sport in high school or wherever else, you don't really fully understand sports.

I see what you are saying about the bias.

With all of the sports I play and follow, I feel like in 10 years of sports I haven't learned as much as I have in two years of FIRST. It is probably different for everyone though.

My opinion is very biased because all I think about is FIRST and I intend to go to college for engineering.

Sports are important and do teach valuable lessons, but from my position, FIRST has taught me much more than sports.

It goes beyond learning though, sports do keep me in better shape, one thing FIRST doesn't do for me is keep me in shape.(We do have poeple on our team that lose weight during the build season though.)

Beyond learning and physical ability, there is fun. Sports are very fun, but I'd be hard pressed to find something more fun than a FIRST competition. The build season is always really fun as well.

mathking

08-08-2008, 16:32

As someone who coaches both a robotics team and a cross-country team, I would argue that they can teach many of the same things. I enjoy coaching both teams. (I have also coached track, soccer and basketball.) And I have had cross-country and track athletes, soccer players, football players, golfers, tennis players, baseball players and volleyball players on my FIRST team. As with many things in life, how you do it makes all the difference. The first step is your approach. In this I am guided by the words of a good friend from quite a few years ago: "As a coach, I need to teach my athletes. If they haven't learned over the course of the season, I haven't done a good job."

As for sports not adding anything of value, please do not discount physical fitness as an important added value. Americans are particularly unfit on the average, and being on a sports team can be a big help in teaching kids how to make healthy life choices. Sports can also teach you how to respond challenges. It takes just as much hard work to be good at a sport as it does to be good at FIRST. Like FIRST, some people will be naturally better at some aspects of sports than other people, but everyone gets better by working at it. You know, the more I think about it, the benefits earned and lessons learned in FIRST and cross-country are remarkably similar.

None of this should be construed as wanting FIRST to be more like the win at all costs ideal which has permeated too much of our sporting culture in the world. But please don't fall into the trap of feeling superior just because you participate in FIRST or of denigrating other athletes because you don't like there sports. One of the reasons I like cross-country and track is the fact that you can't control how fast your opponents run. All you can do is run your fastest. And most athletes measure their success in a season by how much they improved over the course of the season. You also tend to run against the same people several times a year, sometimes as many as 7 or 8 times. This lends itself to a very friendly, almost graciously professional atmosphere at meets. Runners congratulate each other after runs.

Good sportsmanship is something that FIRST tries to foster. And most sports teams at the high school level try to as well. This is not just at the high school level. After the Olympic 1500 meter race in 2004, Hicham el-Guerrouj was kneeling on the track after winning the gold medal. Bernard Lagat, who won the silver, came over to give him a hug of congratulations. Have any of you ever seen the football (soccer) tradition of exchanging jerseys after a hard fought game?

So I guess my point is that whether you do FIRST or some other sport (I guess that answers as to my opinion on the question at hand) you can do it well or not. So choose to do it well and get as much as you can from what you do.

ComradeNikolai

08-08-2008, 16:48

3. You can have John Doe walk off the street, and learn Chess and all the good techniques in one hour

Wait, what?

You can teach me ALL the good techniques of chess in one hour? Really?

Chess takes YEARS of training to even get close to good. Most current masters (not even the grandmaster level; as low as 2200 USCF rating) have been playing since their early childhood and studying with grandmasters to get to a good level, and most people rated 1800 or above play for at least a couple of hours a day.

But I agree with the general idea here; chess is mental, not physical, and so is FIRST; not a sport.

Andy Baker

08-08-2008, 17:20

I'll vote for "not a sport".

Sport involves great things, and it also involves ugly things.

Both FIRST and organized sports teach lessons, provide opportunities, and are very enjoyable for participants. Each have benefits. I've learned many life lessons while being active in both. However, I choose now to be involved in FIRST instead of heavily involved in a sport because the impact of life changing lessons and development is significantly higher in FIRST (from my experience*).

I wish that FIRST did not try to market the robotics competitions as a sport. There are other ways to promote this wonderful program.

Andy B.

* - in my younger years, this includes many levels of competition, including college and semi-pro football

R.C.

08-08-2008, 20:20

It is a sport but for smart people. lol. The sport thing can go both ways.

Cory

08-08-2008, 20:27

It is a sport but for smart people. lol. The sport thing can go both ways.

So are regular sports for dumb people? :confused:

R.C.

08-08-2008, 20:32

So are regular sports for dumb people? :confused:

Funny Cory, no that's just the overall feel I get from people. "Dude are you in robotics. Yeah. Man your smart"

But no, robotics just celebrates science and technology a tad bit more than regular sports

m3ch4num470r

12-08-2008, 21:17

Wiktionary:
sport (countable and uncountable; plural sports)

1. (countable) Any athletic activity that uses physical skills, often competitive.

Oxford English Dictionary Online:
sport

• noun 1 an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others

Sorry, but by definition, not a sport. That's okay. We capture the best of sports and leave out the parts that aren't as good/useful/important.

Chess is considered a Game and not a Sport, it is because,
1. It involves no more physical exertion than lifting a finger.
2. It is a competition for the mind.
3. You can have John Doe walk off the street, and learn Chess and all the good techniques in one hour

If you could teach all of chess in one hour, how come the best computers can be beaten by people with a lifetime of training? The truth is, Chess requires almost as much training as baseball.

A little off topic, but I couldn't let that go unchallenged.

tennispro9911

12-08-2008, 21:55

Some chess players train more than almost any athlete

ComradeNikolai

12-08-2008, 22:21

I'm going to once again throw out my agreement with the two brilliant minds who have posted above me (as I posted earlier in disagreement with the one hour of training). I've played chess off and on for most of my life with two years of serious training and I got nowhere near "all the good techniques."

acdcfan259

12-08-2008, 23:52

If you could teach all of chess in one hour, how come the best computers can be beaten by people with a lifetime of training? The truth is, Chess requires almost as much training as baseball.

A little off topic, but I couldn't let that go unchallenged.

I think everyone blew that out of proportion. I don't think he necessarily meant they're going to be a world-class chess player, just that they would know how to play.

ComradeNikolai

13-08-2008, 00:21

I think everyone blew that out of proportion. I don't think he necessarily meant they're going to be a world-class chess player, just that they would know how to play.

You can learn how to play baseball, however, in just as little time, if not less.

jimbot

13-08-2008, 22:02

FIRST is a sport, robotics is not a sport. Robotics is a field of science. First is taking this field of science and placing a competitive twist on it.

The definition of a sport states that it is a event requiring the use of physical skills or MENTAL skills. any person who has played a sport knows its not just your physical skills. If you have no clue what to do when competing, then you will fail. All of my coaches have told me that soccer is 10% physical, 90% mental.

if you consider the level of mental power we put into First then it can equal other non-physical sports like chess or NASCAR. (You compete so they are a sport in my mind).

SlaminSwimster

14-08-2008, 21:38

i write this as i watch the olympics. I believe that a sport is something where an athlete pushes his or her body to a certain limit in order 2 accomplish a certain task. in which case FIRST is not a sport. However, in this world poker and nascar are considered sports. in that case FIRST beyond a doubt is a sport.

Andrew Schreiber

15-08-2008, 11:45

I would specify FIRST as a sport. But that is because I feel that a sport is a competition, either between you and another, your team and another, or yourself and yourself. Any competition is, in my opinion a sport.

The other part of my response is a question, why does it matter if FIRST is a sport?

acdcfan259

15-08-2008, 11:45

The other part of my response is a question, why does it matter if FIRST is a sport?

Because it's not build season.

JaneYoung

15-08-2008, 12:12

The other part of my response is a question, why does it matter if FIRST is a sport?

I don't know that it matters regarding some of the chit chat aspect of it that is in threads in CD. How it does matter is in the way FIRST is being marketed and promoted globally on all levels. Promoting science and technology with the end goal of having more scientists, technologists, and engineers available to help develop solutions to our world problems and create opportunities for our global future is a challenge. My personal views towards FIRST being a sport or not really don't matter when I am acting as a representative of FIRST in the role of mentor or volunteer. What matters in those roles is that I am mirroring the goals, mission statement, and promotional concept of FIRST that are stated in the FIRST website. If I don't, then my attempts to promote FIRST could conflict, causing confusion.

There is a saying that I'll probably mess up but it goes something like - you can't fit a square peg in a round hole. I rather think of FIRST as adding that triangular shape that fits in neither but adds/enhances/creates opportunity. We can't quite define FIRST according to past standards and traditions, because it is shaping the future and does not conform to today's model of sports. And does it need to? Do teams that play basketball or football, submit Chairman's Award or Woodie Flowers essays? FIRST is broader than sports as we know them. Not better - broader, wider, with enormous impact potential on our present and our future, globally (and beyond).

catsylve

16-08-2008, 10:42

While I would like to say that defining robotics as a sport would help to put it on a level of funding and acceptance with the sports in our schools, I don't believe that this will solve the problem. We have an activities director at our school who is supposed to be responsible for ALL activities. However, if you are not involved in soccer, basketball, or especially football, you may as well not exist.

We cannot even get permission to use the gym without a tremendous fight. We bring more good attention to the school in a week than the sports teams in a month. I have tried from the beginning to help them understand that we are a team in the true sense of the word, but we are only viewed as an after school activity.

The point is that the definition of a sport or not is probably an outdated idea that holds many teams in FIRST back. It really doesn't matter. This program benefits kids as much as any athletic program. We do not promote the criticism and winner take all attitude that most sports do. Whether we define robotics as a sport or not will not change the lives of kids as much as redefining the sports we already have. Keep the integrity of your program uppermost and the definition really won't matter.

joshsmithers

16-08-2008, 15:55

I simply read the first post and voted. NO. Robotics is a sport? No way. Hmmm, 2/3 of voters say it is a sport. Well, it is CD, so they're bound to be biased.

After reading the whole thread, I'm really upset that I had ever thought that robotics isn't a sport. Robotics, in it's general sense, is a sport. Altogether, I put more time into it than any other sport aside from running. It had better be a sport! A lot of the posts here argue whether FIRST is a sport. FIRST is just a variation of robotics. Just like other sports and games, robotics is played in a myriad of variations. One of the ways we "play" it is FIRST. Robotics is a sport, although we don't play it like we do other sports.

XXShadowXX

16-08-2008, 21:00

First is not a sport in the conventional way of thinking, sports in conventional thinking involve physical work, play, ect.

First is a sport in the new sense of the word, because in this century their are people considering video games (I'm one of them), chess, ect. sports these games involve mental work..

In the new sense of the word i consider this a sport.

Michael Hill

16-08-2008, 23:23

No. It is not a sport. Just like how marching band isn't a sport. It IS a competition, but not a sport. I can't believe this topic has even been made.

sgreco

17-08-2008, 07:30

No. It is not a sport. Just like how marching band isn't a sport. It IS a competition, but not a sport. I can't believe this topic has even been made.

I wouldn't go as far as saying the topic shouldn't have been made.

I personally think it isn't a sport, but I see both sides and think it is good discussion.

Just because I don't think FIRST is a sport, I still think comparing it to a sport is a good way to make people understand what competitions are like. And FIRST does compare to sports in many ways.

lingomaniac88

17-08-2008, 12:02

Robotics itself is not a sport. However, a robotics competition, depending on your definition, can be a sport.

Some people in this thread believe that classifying the FRC as a sport degrades it, possibly because it gives the impression that winning is the ultimate goal. We all know that this is not the case. If you want to be more precise, you should say that the FRC is a very unique sport. I do believe that the FRC is a (very unique) sport, but I will agree that it's not a sport in the "traditional" sense of the word, and it's probably not the first thing that comes to mind when one thinks of a sport.

JaneYoung

17-08-2008, 12:15

Some people in this thread believe that classifying the FRC as a sport degrades it, possibly because it gives the impression that winning is the ultimate goal. We all know that this is not the case.

I don't know that everyone knows 'this is not the case' and I would never want to assume this. If FIRST is promoted/marketed as a sports competition based on what that means in today's society, then you are looking at winning as the ultimate goal. There is no way around it. If not handled carefully, the goals/mission statement/original purpose of FIRST could get lost.

Sean Lavery started a thread (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67754) this past May that discussed some of this. His posts, in particular, provide some excellent food for thought.

Michael Hill

17-08-2008, 12:22

These types of threads ALWAYS go the same way.

Poll: Is [insert activity here] a sport?

People: It's on ESPN, it's a sport.
others: So what about poker and auto racing?
rebuttle: we train just as hard or long as a football player or baseball player
counter-rebuttle: Are you really in that much physical shape?
reply: *brings in dictionary* "A 'sport' is defined as...[insert vague definition that you can twist any activity into a sport]"
*Topic eventually dies and never gets resolved*

Using this method, I could probably define typing on a keyboard as a sport.

Andrew Schreiber

17-08-2008, 16:27

Using this method, I could probably define typing on a keyboard as a sport.

You know they have texting competitions right? So it COULD be a sport. :p

Joking aside, does classifying FIRST as a sport mean anything to any of us? To me I don't care if it is a sport or not. I enjoy it. And as long as we all enjoy it does it matter what people who aren't involved think?

ATannahill

17-08-2008, 16:40

You know they have texting competitions right? So it COULD be a sport. :p

Joking aside, does classifying FIRST as a sport mean anything to any of us? To me I don't care if it is a sport or not. I enjoy it. And as long as we all enjoy it does it matter what people who aren't involved think?
no, and i truthfully surprised that people within first do not consider it a sport but i have no opinion either way

Martinez

18-08-2008, 13:24

It's a sport. The whole selling point by FIRST is that FRC is a High School sporting competition for geeks, nerds, and would be engineers. During the six weeks you design and build the athlete. Then we compete in high adrenaline, high intensity competitions. Then there are the official sponsors, namely your corporate sponsors. Just like NASCAR, thats the point. We are activily changing our culture, the perseption of technology, and what "sporting" really means.

We are the "New Olympics" & the "Superbowl of Smarts." :ahh:

Also, all because there is much more we try to accomplish than winning, doesn't make FIRST any more or less of a sport. In fact, I would say you are being biased to your own perceptions and the public opinnion of sporting. I for one do not play soccer or go sailing just to "win". Far from it. The POINT of sports is to have fun, build team work, build self esteem, and improve yourself to the best ablity, and yes win. How are these traits any different than us? But lets face it, the most accomplished and recognized teams are not necciarly those who inspire their students but also WIN consistantly at regionals.