2009 Distribution Block

[=Martin=Taylor=]

Well, we've seen the new Jaguars, and the cRIO...

What about this new Power Distribution Block? If there's one thing we really need its a new distribution block... :)

Anyone know whos making it? Where it can be found? Is it already on the market?

Can I download a CAD yet? :D

[Joe G.]

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/31404

the thing in the middle, from what I hear, is much like the IFI board from 2005, combining the functions of power distribution and holding the fuses.

[Joe Ross]

Here is more info: http://first.wpi.edu/FRC/powerdistribution.html

[jtdowney]

From my understanding the new distribution block is being fabricated by Diversified Systems (DivSys) (http://www.divsys.com) out of Indianapolis. These are the same folks who provided the IR boards last season.

[pacoliketaco]

From my understanding the new distribution block is being fabricated by Diversified Systems (DivSys) (http://www.divsys.com) out of Indianapolis. These are the same folks who provided the IR boards last season.

hmmm, i guess we'll just have to hope that these boards work better than the IR ones (my team could never get them to work), though they do look very nice so far.

[Greg Marra]

I have firm reason to believe these will be the best power distribution blocks since the 2005 season.

[Cory]

I have firm reason to believe these will be the best power distribution blocks since the 2005 season.

I totally get what you're saying, but that isn't saying much, given that IFI boards were great, and the distro blocks the last 2 years sucked.

[=Martin=Taylor=]

I have firm reason to believe these will be the best power distribution blocks since the 2005 season.

Yeah, but didn't that one use push-on connectors?

This one uses screws to clamp down the leads... the same method the Rock-fail-well Distro' block used :mad: Those screws always came loose.

We shall see... At least its nice and compact and not too heavy-looking..

[EricVanWyk]

This one uses screws to clamp down the leads... the same method the Rock-fail-well Distro' block used :mad: Those screws always came loose.


Nope.

The main battery leads are ring crimped and attached to a pair of press fit shanks. A nut is then tightened down on top of this. This is similar to the old IFI breaker board and the 120A main breaker connection, but with enhanced awesome. These are the square chunks of metal on the right hand side of http://first.wpi.edu/Images/CMS/First/power_distribution_rdax_600x406.jpg

As for the fanout past the breakers, these use Wago 745-85X and 745-83X cage clamp style connectors. A piece of spring steel, not a screw, supplies the clamping force. These are the blue and white connectors on the top and bottom of http://first.wpi.edu/Images/CMS/First/power_distribution_rdax_600x406.jpg

[R.C.]

I like the New Control System, the 07-08 was really annoying.

[Cory]

I like the New Control System, the 07-08 was really annoying.

Care to elaborate?

I for one enjoy using products that work--something IFI is very good at.

FIRST has a dismal track record when it comes to introducing new vendors/products into FRC. It's going to take a lot more than fancy specs to make the new controller superior to the old--first it has to work, which is no small task.

[R.C.]

For one, on the distro block the terminals were very hard to work with. They would wiggle out. There were other small things that i do like about the new controller. The new distro block has everything included into a package. BTW, Cory what terminal connectors did you use one your batteries, they were really cool.

[Cory]

For one, on the distro block the terminals were very hard to work with. They would wiggle out. There were other small things that i do like about the new controller. The new distro block has everything included into a package. BTW, Cory what terminal connectors did you use one your batteries, they were really cool.

I think it's important to distinguish between IFI and third party manufacturers. IFI manufactured the control system. They are in no way responsible for the shortcomings of a product being used outside of it's intended application (the Rockwell Distribution Block)

As for our batteries, we just used standard ring terminals. We had 4 gauge monster wire, which was what looked different from most teams.

[R.C.]

I think it's important to distinguish between IFI and third party manufacturers. IFI manufactured the control system. They are in no way responsible for the shortcomings of a product being used outside of it's intended application (the Rockwell Distribution Block)

As for our batteries, we just used standard ring terminals. We had 4 gauge monster wire, which was what looked different from most teams.

Oh, otherwise IFI products were great. Can you give me link to the standard ring terminals. Thanks Cory

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Please note that the Rockwell block has a specification for strip length that teams chose to ignore. Without stripping to 5/8", the wire was guaranteed to push out as the screws were tightened. The new Waco blocks have a similar specification. You must strip 1/2" of insulation for the wire to be properly terminated in the 745-85X block according to the manufacturer. You must strip 1/3" of insulation for the wire to be properly terminated in the 745-38X block according to the manufacturer. Their ability to stand up to robot movement will be tested during the beta testing. Please standby...

We might as well get this discussion going early, so let everyone know what the spec is.

[IndySam]

Well said Al. We never had a single failure withe the Rockwell. Properly used they were very reliable.

Any product improperly used is subject to failure.

[jonboy]

I also agree we Al.

I think we should remember GP and realize that everyone associated with the FIRST organization is trying with all their ability to do their best and that no one is perfect. As for the IR receiver board we did not have a problem with it and appreciated the introduction of a new component. All we did was follow the directions on how to install and use. My impression was the developer and producer was trying his best and probably at a sacrifice to some other more important business or personal endeavors. It seems that anytime there is change introduced to a system especially trying to make an improvement in technology there are going to be some rough spots to be dealt with. GP goes a long way to separate FIRST from many other organizations. Let us all pull together to improve our technology, hardware, software and most importantly the culture for the students. Constructive criticism works the best! Reading and following the documentation works very well too.

[dlavery]

Although not necessarily a fan of the Rockwell distribution block because of its size, we had no complaints about its performance. We followed the manufacturers directions regarding wire prep. All inbound wires were secured with strain reliefs. We used wires of the appropriate gauge size, and left the ends loose (unsoldered). As a result, we never had a problem with wires working loose from the block during the entire season. We checked the clamp screws periodically to see if there was an issue, but found that they never worked loose and did not need to be retightened.

Although I have not had a chance to play with one yet (c'mon, when are they going to announce who is in the beta test program? :) ), I expect that the 2009 distribution block will perform just as well if reasonable care is taken to use it properly. Follow the manufacturers recommendations, use the correct wire size, tie down all wires properly (this is a VERY important step - anticipate that wire bundles will be vibrating and shaking, and apply appropriate countermeasures to minimize the transmitted forces), tighten everything to spec, and I suspect that you won't see a whole lot of problems.

-dave


.

[RyanN]

We never had any issues with the Rockwell PD Blocks. Although the screws did start to back off after a while, or maybe the wire was shifting around a little, we never did lose power, and all we did was tighten the screws more. After one tightening, all was well.

Also, I'd imagine that the smaller wire sizes will make a difference with how they're secured. I've never had any issue with smaller wires coming out of this compression type of connection. There's a right wire size for every hole. If the new PD block manufactures did their homework, then I believe everything will go well.

[Cory]

We never had an issue with the Rockell PDB other than it being massive and the fact that we loved the IFI breaker board.

One of the reasons is probably that we used 4 gauge wire instead of 6.

It seemed like too many teams who really know what they are doing *did* have trouble, though.

[artdutra04]

This one uses screws to clamp down the leads... the same method the Rock-fail-well Distro' block used :mad: Those screws always came loose.Perhaps someone who knows more about this can help me here, but is it possible to use split lock washers [between the top of the crimp connector and the bottom of the screw head - e.g. not between the main contact area of the connector and the terminal strip] on terminal strips to help prevent the screws from backing out?

EDIT: Thanks Al.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Perhaps someone who knows more about this can help me here, but is it possible to use split lock washers [between the top of the crimp connector and the bottom of the screw head - e.g. not between the main contact area of the connector and the terminal strip] on terminal strips to help prevent the screws from backing out?

Art,
I am guessing you are asking about the new PD panel. I believe the intent is to ship with a nut designed for the power studs. (I don't have time to go look up the spec sheet, but I think they are metric) As I remember, that nut has built in anti-back thread so that it won't come loose. In any installation, some method of locking the turning device is recommended. Also, plan on securing the wiring so that it won't be distrubed when changing batteries.

[=Martin=Taylor=]

Although not necessarily a fan of the Rockwell distribution block because of its size, we had no complaints about its performance. We followed the manufacturers directions regarding wire prep. All inbound wires were secured with strain reliefs. We used wires of the appropriate gauge size, and left the ends loose (unsoldered). As a result, we never had a problem with wires working loose from the block during the entire season. We checked the clamp screws periodically to see if there was an issue, but found that they never worked loose and did not need to be retightened.


This is very good advice. Thank you. I'll remind the electrical people to actually read the manual next time :rolleyes:

For the record, it never gave us any trouble either, but sometimes when we checked it we found that one of the wires was falling out :eek:

What method do teams use to secure the wires prior to entering the block?

[ATannahill]

I am a great wire maker (cutting, stripping and crimping) so i am not fond of the PD block used the past two years. But going with the team tradition of needing to bend an instrument before the screw turns, we had no problem keeping the wires in. I am also sad to see crimping being reduced so much.

[EricVanWyk]

I am also sad to see crimping being reduced so much.

Wow. I just lost a $20 bet.

[waialua359]

finally got a chance to look at Bilfred's post. Looks great!
The 07 and 08 ones were terrible. It was a couple of extra stages and space taken up we didnt need.
Looked more like car stereo ones.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Wow. I just lost a $20 bet.

Erik,
We can't let that go! Do tell?!?

Also, are the PDs shipping with hardware and are the studs metric?

[EricVanWyk]

Eric,
We can't let that go! Do tell?!?

Also, are the PDs shipping with hardware and are the studs metric?

I bet that no one would ever miss crimping, as it is one of the major sources of faults in the power system. A single poor crimp can and will take down a robot spectacularly. Personally, I've been wanting to remove failure modes since I started back in high school.

[Greg Marra]

I bet that no one would ever miss crimping, as it is one of the major sources of faults in the power system. A single poor crimp can and will take down a robot spectacularly. Personally, I've been wanting to remove failure modes since I started back in high school.

Next thing you know they'll take away radio issues and popping the main breaker!

[=Martin=Taylor=]

Next thing you know they'll take away radio issues and popping the main breaker!

I thought they were keeping the old breaker? It made a handy on/off switch :)

No more radios though! (not sure about issues...)

[Russ Beavis]

The 120A main breaker will still be used. It's too difficult (but not impossible) to implement such a "large" power switch with current sensing/shutdown using semiconductors.

Russ

[Josh Hambright]

I will say, that from what I have seen and heard from some of the people who worked on the new power distribution block, its pretty sweet. They thought of many of the things we have all griped about over the years, and they even added some features that made me say "Wow! Thats such a cool idea" when I heard about them.

Only time will tell though how well any of the new control system will perform in competition. I'm going into the next season as thinking of all of us being Beta testers, there are bound to be issues, and we are bound to find problems, but in the long run there is a whole bunch of potential in the new control system.

[Dowjonesbotics]

I'm new at all this stuff so i was wondering ...

What are the benefits of the new distro board:confused: ?

[RyanN]

EDIT: Read my post below.

[EricVanWyk]

I don't know them all. But I know there is current sensing so the controller can detect an issue before anything goes bad and trips a breaker. The 2005 controller had this, but I'm not sure how many teams actually used it as the interface was somewhat cumbersome using serial, and you only had 2 serial ports on the controller. If you attempted to use the camera, then you were down to one and had to share it with the "Program" port.

But basically, you don't have to use the features, and can use it like any other year's PD board. I do know it has current sensing, but I thought there was something else they mentioned in Atlanta.

Sorry Ryan, no current sensing on the 2009 PD. You might be confusing it with the 7 current sensing mechanisms in its power supplies.

The PD is basically a consolidation and prettification of the power distribution system. It combines the functions of the Rockwell Block, the small 20/30A fuse panels and the shiny 40A fuse panels. It is actually a bit smaller and lighter than the old system, AND has a insignificantly smaller total path resistance.

It carries 3 switching power supplies to generate the voltages necessary to power the cRIO, the camera, and the wifi.

It uses interesting connectors which do not require crimping, and has "blown breaker" blinky lights for each of its thermal breaker slots. Remember, more blinky is more better.

It can also leap tall buildings in a single bound, violate zeno's paradox of motion, cure cancer (in electrons), and (when flipped upside down) hold three slices of delicious pizza.

[R.C.]

Quick question, is 12 gauge wire still going to be used next year and does anyone know where to get the terminals that 968 used on their batteries?

Thanks everyone

-rc

[DonRotolo]

hold three slices of delicious pizza.
mmmm....Pizza....

Sorry for being late to the discussion: We also had absolutely no problems with the rockwell block. We found that tightening the screws to the recommended torque made for a far more reliable connection than just cranking down with a screwdriver. The recommended torque is actually quite low - we used a torque screwdriver - and stripped (the wire!) according to spec, and nevr had a wire come loose.

[RyanN]

Sorry Ryan, no current sensing on the 2009 PD. You might be confusing it with the 7 current sensing mechanisms in its power supplies.

The PD is basically a consolidation and prettification of the power distribution system. It combines the functions of the Rockwell Block, the small 20/30A fuse panels and the shiny 40A fuse panels. It is actually a bit smaller and lighter than the old system, AND has a insignificantly smaller total path resistance.

It carries 3 switching power supplies to generate the voltages necessary to power the cRIO, the camera, and the wifi.

It uses interesting connectors which do not require crimping, and has "blown breaker" blinky lights for each of its thermal breaker slots. Remember, more blinky is more better.

It can also leap tall buildings in a single bound, violate zeno's paradox of motion, cure cancer (in electrons), and (when flipped upside down) hold three slices of delicious pizza.

I would have bet money that they said that in Atlanta, but I must be wrong (darn, I hate it when that happens...).

That must have been what they were trying to explain to me in Atlanta, but the work being done in all the pits drowned out the voices of everyone that talked to me.

Well excuse my previous post. I've corrected it.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Ryan,
The IFI PD block had sensing to tell which breaker tripped and when. You could use it for a dashboard robot health monitor. Most teams don't know when or if their breakers are tripping. It happens more than you think.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

While I'm not a particular fan of the Rockwell distro, I have to say we only had 1 failure attributed to it and that was after a particularly violent collision during autonomous mode. Needless to say, it wasn't the Rockwells fault.