New Game Progress

[Electricia 1599]

what do you think the new game is going to be?

[Cory]

a water game :rolleyes:

[EricH]

Cory read my mind.:rolleyes:

Or better: jello game.:rolleyes:

[Andrew141WOBOT]

it wouldn't totally shock me if this year was the dreaded water game. i personally think that we're still a long ways off from that (i know that's kind of contradictory :) if i had to say, following a pattern, this year probably won't be a ball game, that is every other year. other than that, i don't really know.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

what do you think the new game is going to be?

Red Herrings :cool:

[Leav]

I have said it once, and i'll say it again and again until one year it will finally be true:

This year's game piece will be pool noodles.

-Leav

(when this happens I want scores of people linking to this post and asking me to predict next year's game piece as well. ;) :P )

[Cory]

it wouldn't totally shock me if this year was the dreaded water game. i personally think that we're still a long ways off from that (i know that's kind of contradictory :) if i had to say, following a pattern, this year probably won't be a ball game, that is every other year. other than that, i don't really know.

I will print this post out and eat it if we see a water game this year. I would make this bet EVERY year, but particularly this year with the new controller. Not a snowball's chance in hell.

[Cow Bell Solo]

I will print this post out and eat it if we see a water game this year. I would make this bet EVERY year, but particularly this year with the new controller. Not a snowball's chance in hell.

I don't think FIRST would do water game because of the ability to some teams to be able to test robots with water.

Will we ever know what the game is until kickoff. Me no like this torture we get every year.

[Jonathan Norris]

I will print this post out and eat it if we see a water game this year. I would make this bet EVERY year, but particularly this year with the new controller. Not a snowball's chance in hell.

Now I just want to see Cory literally eat this thread.

My bet is that the new game will be an interesting design challenge, that challenges us to use the full abilities of the new controller. How about that for a general answer.

[Travis Hoffman]

The 2009 game piece will be - Zack Morris cell phones.

I've never seen "Degrassi" but Karthik's post about 1114 being on that TV show made me think of "Saved by the Bell".....

[gorrilla]

maybe they changes the control system so they could do a water game?CRIO waterproof?:D

[Travis Hoffman]

maybe they changes the control system so they could do a water game?CRIO waterproof?:D

No, but it is *somewhat* fireproof:

See the "cRIO - Like a Rock?" video linked on this page:

http://sites.google.com/a/neofra.com/2009controlsystem/2009-frc-info/published-content/videos-and-media

[DarkFlame145]

maybe they changes the control system so they could do a water game?CRIO waterproof?:D

Sorry................ but IFI wouldn't upgrade stuff like FIRST wanted (so i have been told)

Water games are far away, it's too risky imo. But i would like to see plastic cubes that we have to lift onto some sort of platform that has a trap door that is connected to a lever that can be pulled/rammed into by another bot.

[Mr. Freeman]

As much as we'd all like to see one, FIRST will never have a water game. There are always going to be rookie teams that have no experience making robots, let alone making them waterproof.

I really want to see projectiles again though, like they did in '06. If not that, then pool noodles.

[gorrilla]

what about or soccer or water polo that'd be fun

[qwertyuiop[]\]

better yet, projectile pool noodles.i see maybe some kind of irregular object. maybe utilizing noneuclidean geometry.

[sportzkrazzy]

how about a game on ice?

[Leav]

\;769115']better yet, projectile pool noodles.i see maybe some kind of irregular object. maybe utilizing noneuclidean geometry.



Klein Bottles!

p.s.
This is Perhaps the first and last time you will ever see the term "Klein Bottle" followed by an exclamation point.

[ATannahill]

what about some small cylendrical game piece?

[DarkFlame145]

what about some small cylendrical game piece?

Dear god no more balls/tubes. I think we have killed round objects for a couple years. I want bins or something square.

[gorrilla]

ice would be awsome :D

[ttldomination]

I think that water would be too complicated. Given that this would stretch teams' limits, water would be hard to build, and also hard to create at regionals and etc.

Personally, I believe the game will resemble something along the lines of the FTC game. Look forward to terrain and having to maneuver your robot around the field. I also believe that FIRST will implement the use of more ramps this year, and possible even a 2nd level?!?!?!?!

As scary and exciting a water game might sound, I think it is a tad bit unrealistic.

[BJT]

tennis balls, a ten foot high goal, and monkeys trained to play defense on us.

[gorrilla]

i say 700 bonus points for climbing a 83 degree treadmill

[IKE]

CONES!!!!!

[Leav]

I was about to say:

Doughnuts!!

and was thinking to myself:

Ah! that is so clever! they can never do dou.. oh wait.

-Leav

[Scott L.]

My guess is the game will have some connection to us returning to the moon to build a lunar base. Maybe some sort of moving and assembly of building materials.:D

[dodar]

i think an obsticacle course in a tag team motion would be pretty sweet for this year :yikes:

[Daniel_LaFleur]

what about some small cylendrical game piece?

Marbles?

[s_forbes]

I wanna play "Aim High" again!

...or at least a game that is similarly structured. A bunch of gamepieces, open field, lots of robot interaction... fun!

[EricH]

what about some small cylendrical game piece?Batons (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/22847).

Note to self: Next time a thread like this happens, find EVERY "hint" that Dave or others have "released" for every game and put them into the thread.

And just last night, I looked at a spotlight from Dave where he talked about an impromptu water competition--with FIRST robots--outside--with no electrical issues. Yes, a water game is possible, or was with the IFI system and its predecessor. Let's hope the cRIO takes more "abuse", including water-related.

[Lydia_1739]

I for one would like to balance something. Maybe a cards. but large ones. we should make card houses. that would be satisfying

[AndyB]

The 2009 game piece will be - Zack Morris cell phones.

I've never seen "Degrassi" but Karthik's post about 1114 being on that TV show made me think of "Saved by the Bell".....

And you thought trackballs were big...

[R.C.]

I was kinda hoping for the vlc media cone =)

[Sunbun]

It would be cool to see another "Co-Opertition" game. I bet it would throw my team a little out of whack (in a good way).

[AndyB]

It would be cool to see another "Co-Opertition" game. I bet it would throw my team a little out of whack (in a good way).

I wasn't a huge fan of coopertition. I'm gonna be so happy to be able to travel in whatever direction I want again this year (Hopefully). I'm so happy G22's reign is over.

[R.C.]

I wasn't a huge fan of coopertition. I'm gonna be so happy to be able to travel in whatever direction I want again this year (Hopefully). I'm so happy G22's reign is over.

You never know, Dave might be thinking of something totally crazy.

[Cow Bell Solo]

How about a game that involves every single previous game pieces and objectives, combine them all into one game.

[R.C.]

How about a game that involves every single previous game pieces and objectives, combine them all into one game.

Not a bad idea.

[EricH]

How about a game that involves every single previous game pieces and objectives, combine them all into one game.
Oh, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

Floppies+puck+rotating tree+rack+overpass+balls of various sizes+corn on the floor+platforms+ramps+hanging bars+shooting the game pieces+boxes+tetras+mobile goals+zones+inner tubes= "How on earth do we fit it all in?"

Never mind "How on earth are we supposed to play this?" and the <G22> penalties, loading zone violations, and other miscellaneous penalties (and exceptions).

Never mind that (in the early years) tipping was legal, and the "no wedges" rule was only enacted in 2005... Oh, and which parts limitation do we use?

On the other hand, teams already have a plethora of designs to choose from. Oh wait...:D

[mtaman02]

what about or soccer or water polo that'd be fun

Soccer was done in '06 :p... then again basketball was done in '06...

Hmm maybe a baseball themed game or hockey or football :eek:

Come to think of it pool noodles in a baseball themed game :D


Great I think we just started waking up the lav monster... *invests in stock of Tylenol cause me thinks I'm going to need it this year*

[Andrew Schreiber]

I don't think FIRST would do water game because of the ability to some teams to be able to test robots with water.


Well, in most northern states the water game would turn into an ice game. :P Course that would be interesting to me.

Optimally next years game would allow multiple ways of scoring that are scored appropriately to their difficulty. Autonomous mode will probably make a come back as opposed to hybrid. Hybrid was an interesting twist but with the increased processing power it seems foolish not to use it. Dont be surprised to see a twist on the game piece. I am tempted to agree with Leav that pool noodles would be an awesome game piece. Inter-robot communications would be pretty fun to do as well as very relevant to real life.

Ok now for some randomness:
at every regional we will have a webserver our robots will have to open a tcp/ip connection to. Will have to traverse the file structure and find a file. Open the file and it will contain the location to drive to (randomly generated on a per robot basis) at that location we have to place an object and repeat the process. And thats just auton. :D

Ok that was a fun joke.

[dlavery]

And so it begins....

http://redherringsociety.org/redherring.jpg

-dave



.

[Wetzel]

And so it begins....

http://redherringsociety.org/redherring.jpg

-dave



.
Is that an Atlantic or Pacific red herring?

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Red Herrings :cool:

And so it begins....

http://redherringsociety.org/redherring.jpg

-dave



.

Oh Noes!~!!!

What have I done :p

[EricH]

I would assume Atlantic because it's closer to Dave... Is that an Atlantic or Pacific red herring?

[AndyB]

Ok now for some randomness:
at every regional we will have a webserver our robots will have to open a tcp/ip connection to. Will have to traverse the file structure and find a file. Open the file and it will contain the location to drive to (randomly generated on a per robot basis) at that location we have to place an object and repeat the process. And thats just auton. :D

And everyone would watch in intense... boredom.

[Rich Kressly]

It has been reported that there were several late summer sightings of Mr. Lavery working on two rather large shark fin replicas in his garage late into the Virginia evening. Coincidence? I think not.

Hey Cory, ever see that episode of Bugs Bunny?
"How you makeum snowball in summer?"

[Taylor]

You do understand that members of the GDC do patrol the CD fora, check out game design ideas, and are rather careful not to use an exact idea already posted here.
That being said....
FLL and FTC have done a science/technology theme for a while now. I haven't seen this from FRC yet - at least not the whole game (I know the hybrid mode was supposed to allude to the Mars expedition). I think FRC will be thematic and topical. Perhaps highlighting environmental concerns (game pieces could be aluminum cans, plastic bottles, magazines, etc), perhaps incorporating more obstacles a la the FTC game.
Personally, I'd like to see a politically themed game - we'd call our robot Hanging Chad.

[AndyB]

This'll be what, the 18th year of FIRST? I could see a second coming of FIRST Frenzy coming in a few years. (Combining the ideas of previous games). But probably not this year. They'd do it for the 20th.

Personally, I had a blast with Triple Play and Rack n' Roll. Overdrive really didn't hold as strategy as high as games like these. (Especially triple play). I love games that force alliance cooperation. Overdrive didn't have much of that after the first 20 seconds of the game. I loved in 2007 when teams had to coordinate the usage of ring robots and ramp robots.

[yodameister]

I took this picture, zoomed in on various parts and discovered some very interesting things. If you carefully look at the white patch behind the eye, you will see what looks like a torch. Now I have no idea what that means, maybe an Olympics style pentathalon or something like that. Then, If you look at the dorsal fin, about 1/3 the way back, there is a faint image of a meatball in a bowl of spaghetti. I'm guessing that FIRST will be providing lunch to all teams during the Thursday lunch time since the image is located on the first third of the fin, and since competitions are over 3 days, it makes sense that the meal will be provided on Thursday. The last thing I noticed is that I have far too much time on my hands typing this fantasy up, and I will just have to wait for kickoff to see what this year's game actually is.

Cheers

And so it begins....

http://redherringsociety.org/redherring.jpg

-dave



.

[IKE]

Personally, I had a blast with Triple Play and Rack n' Roll. Overdrive really didn't hold as strategy as high as games like these. (Especially triple play). I love games that force alliance cooperation. Overdrive didn't have much of that after the first 20 seconds of the game. I loved in 2007 when teams had to coordinate the usage of ring robots and ramp robots.

Here Here. Those two were definitely my favorites. I would especially like Triple play now that the camera stuff has been figured out better. If the Vision Tetras had green lights on them, that could be truly spectacular.

[Libby K]

I took this picture, zoomed in on various parts and discovered some very interesting things. If you carefully look at the white patch behind the eye, you will see what looks like a torch. Now I have no idea what that means, maybe an Olympics style pentathalon or something like that. Then, If you look at the dorsal fin, about 1/3 the way back, there is a faint image of a meatball in a bowl of spaghetti. I'm guessing that FIRST will be providing lunch to all teams during the Thursday lunch time since the image is located on the first third of the fin, and since competitions are over 3 days, it makes sense that the meal will be provided on Thursday. The last thing I noticed is that I have far too much time on my hands typing this fantasy up, and I will just have to wait for kickoff to see what this year's game actually is.

Cheers

WAIT WAIT, I GOT IT!!!!

What if....

it's just a picture of a fish.

[JaneYoung]

I took this picture, zoomed in on various parts and discovered some very interesting things. If you carefully look at the white patch behind the eye, you will see what looks like a torch. Now I have no idea what that means, maybe an Olympics style pentathalon or something like that. Then, If you look at the dorsal fin, about 1/3 the way back, there is a faint image of a meatball in a bowl of spaghetti. I'm guessing that FIRST will be providing lunch to all teams during the Thursday lunch time since the image is located on the first third of the fin, and since competitions are over 3 days, it makes sense that the meal will be provided on Thursday. The last thing I noticed is that I have far too much time on my hands typing this fantasy up, and I will just have to wait for kickoff to see what this year's game actually is.

Cheers

I think the truth is that this fish carries a torch for great songs:

On top of spaghetti,
All covered with cheese,
I lost my poor meatball,
When somebody sneezed.

It rolled off the table,
And on to the floor,
And then my poor meatball,
Rolled out of the door.

It rolled in the garden,
And under a bush,
And then my poor meatball,
Was nothing but mush.

The mush was as tasty
As tasty could be,
And then the next summer,
It grew into a tree.

The tree was all covered,
All covered with moss,
And on it grew meatballs,
And tomato sauce.

So if you eat spaghetti,
All covered with cheese,
Hold on to your meatball,
Whenever you sneeze.

Man, I love that song. Rock on red herring.

[The Lucas]

Ok now for some randomness:
at every regional we will have a webserver our robots will have to open a tcp/ip connection to. Will have to traverse the file structure and find a file. Open the file and it will contain the location to drive to (randomly generated on a per robot basis) at that location we have to place an object and repeat the process. And thats just auton. :D

Ok that was a fun joke.

Now if you gave the same location to opposing robots (3 total locations unless you are thinking 4v4), and they had to autonomously play king of the hill in that spot then we might have something exciting.


Personally, I'd like to see a politically themed game - we'd call our robot Hanging Chad.
The name has been done before. In 2004, Team 1218, The CHAbots, named their robot the Hanging CHA. All it did was hang, but with big tri-wheels for climbing it was hard to stop (they literally rolled over bots). They were Einstein Finalist that year with Las Guerillas.

[jgannon]

I'm predicting that, for the first time since 2005, there won't be any penalties based solely on where your robot is or where it's going. The GDC finally realized that these rules have had a disproportionately negative impact on teams with less skilled drivers and malfunction-prone robots... no one benefits when a team feels like they'd have been a better help to their alliance by not showing up at all.

(I can dream, right?)

[ttldomination]

Uh, I think this picture can mean 3 things.

1. Nothing. It could be trick. Just Dave messing with up while the hype is up. :D.

2. Getting your swimming trunks out, cause we're going underwater.

3. The gaming element could be a replica of a fish, or something slimy. Just thought of that right now. :D.

[seanwitte]

The picture that Dave posted is linked from the Red Herring Society web site. A WHOIS search reveals that the domain is registered to an individual in Toroto, Canada and the registrar is Tucows. Toronto is home to the Maple Leafs NHL team. Maple leafs are red and maple trees produce maple syrup. Tucows is a rough approximation of the phrase "two cows". Cows produce milk. The "Two Cows" could be interpreted to mean 2% milk, which has a blue label. Clearly the game will have a breakfast theme. There will be large glasses and waffles scattered around the playing field. In the center will be a large table with four chairs. The red team will attempt to apply syrup to the waffles while the blue team pours generous servings of tasty 2% milk. At the same time, members of either team can hand the waffles or glasses of milk to their human players, removing those points from the total score when consumed. Robots will receive points based on the number of waffles/glasses of milk on the table at the end of the match, plus a bonus for robots seated at the table.

[DarkFlame145]

I took this picture, zoomed in on various parts and discovered some very interesting things. If you carefully look at the white patch behind the eye, you will see what looks like a torch. Now I have no idea what that means, maybe an Olympics style pentathalon or something like that. Then, If you look at the dorsal fin, about 1/3 the way back, there is a faint image of a meatball in a bowl of spaghetti. I'm guessing that FIRST will be providing lunch to all teams during the Thursday lunch time since the image is located on the first third of the fin, and since competitions are over 3 days, it makes sense that the meal will be provided on Thursday. The last thing I noticed is that I have far too much time on my hands typing this fantasy up, and I will just have to wait for kickoff to see what this year's game actually is.

Cheers

The first thing that caught my eye was the diamond plat like pattern on the fish so maybe there is a piece of diamond plat in the middle of the field. Always remember to read into Dave's clues they are never what they seam to be.

[dlavery]

Is that an Atlantic or Pacific red herring?

Isn't that sort of like asking "is that an African or European swallow?"

-dave



.

[Manoel]

Isn't that sort of like asking "is that an African or European swallow?"

-dave



.

Wafer-thin game objects? :ahh:

[JohnBoucher]

"Now is that a real poncho or is that a Sears poncho, heh?" FZ

[MiniNerd24]

I kinda hope me have a little more room to move in this year's game. last year was fine and dandy, but (as experience from last year's game) when we fell over we blocked the whole path. If they have it more like 06 with most of the field free and have the target in the center I think that'd be helpful. And my guess is that they're going to raise the weight limits to 125 or something because of that new control system. Maybe the game itself should be capture the flag or for those here who love the concept of a water game. Water Polo. :rolleyes:

[DarkFlame145]

Having the end of round bonus points be from having to pick up and suspend another bot in the air (only a few inches) would be cool.

[Booksy]

...water would be hard to build...

I totally just set that as my new signature!:] lol.

[dlavery]

Wafer-thin game objects? :ahh:

That would be The Logical Conclusion to a Night of Bingeing (thank you Mr. Creosote!)

-dave


.

[ttldomination]

Boosky: Aw, you caught my typo. :D. Oh well. :D.

[Trueliez]

I'm predicting that, for the first time since 2005, there won't be any penalties based solely on where your robot is or where it's going. The GDC finally realized that these rules have had a disproportionately negative impact on teams with less skilled drivers and malfunction-prone robots... no one benefits when a team feels like they'd have been a better help to their alliance by not showing up at all.

(I can dream, right?)

Being in a rookie team this year, I'm all for it!

Capture the flag also sounds great, though I think a game where we had to assemble a structure (maybe leading on from the blocks of the VEX elevation?) would be a good challenge also.

[gorrilla]

water polo on a 54ft carpeted field?


wait i've got it you have to throw other robots into the goal thats 12ft off the ground!:yikes:

[sayso_411]

I think the Magic of FIRST comes from thinking up crazy ideas for next year's game...anyways i m against water games because of the tremendous effort GDC and regional personal will have to put in it, but i m also against balls and that stuff. i want something that is truly creative as this is my last year as student on my FIRST Team...

I got a lot of rookies on my team this year...wish me luck

[Aren_Hill]

I'm really hoping they make bumpers optional and have enough game options, that robots look as unique as the robots from the era of '04 and earlier. Because the robots back then look alot more unique than most of the past robots (some exceptions lol).

[The Lucas]

though I think a game where we had to assemble a structure (maybe leading on from the blocks of the VEX elevation?) would be a good challenge also.

We tried something similar in 2003 with Stack Attack (http://www.firstwiki.net/index.php/Stack_Attack) with very (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20350) mixed (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19066) results (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47273). Some liked the excitement, some believed it was flawed but could be fixed with simple rule changes, others consider it a complete failure and cringe at the phrase "Stack Attack". Most can agree there was more emphasis on the "Attack" than the "Stack". Several Theorists out there believe the rough play (like ramming) that year was very influential in creating the rough play rules of today.

FRC hasn't really tried anything similar since (IMHO). I am interested to see how the Vex Elevation game turns out since it very similar to the 2003 and 2005 FRC games (and of course other games before them). I still don't think FRC will try anything that might be compared to Stack Attack, but you never know (especially when Dave is involved :D ).

More so than usual I hope this year's game turns out to be exceptional. Balancing the difficulty of Autonomous/Hybrid will certainly be a feat this year with no prior cRio experience. A truly great, exciting game can help make everything more successful including new endeavors like the control system, Michigan competition format, and of course our new friends in New Zealand.

Oh and I can't forget what I always say in these threads:

FRISBEES!!!!! :ahh:
'nuff said

EDIT: I guess not nuff said. I knew I had seen this Red Herring stuff before.. (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?p=605063&postcount=6).


One of these years, the game piece will be an actual red herring.


Hmmmmmm......




.

[waialua359]

Lets call the 2009 game REWIND, and play a new and improved "Aim High."
Or HYBRID, and mix 2 or more past games in one. :)

[johnr]

Foosball. Playing field runs across the short distance of field. auto would be to lock onto handles or to push other handles out to mess with other teams auto. Endgame--I have no idea.

[DarkFlame145]

Sorry................ but IFI wouldn't upgrade stuff like FIRST wanted (so i have been told)


I realized that what i said there was not the best choice of words and I apologize to IFI. What I said was my own words and do not reflect the views or opinions of team 1902.

[AdamHeard]

One thing some of the more recent games have lacked (05, 07, 08, most of the vex games) is shared scoring objects. Shared scoring objects (the shared balls in 04, 06, shared goals in 02, and so on) had top offensive robots competing for them, something I really miss with the alliance orientated scoring objects.

Imagine how much different this year would have been if there were just 4 trackballs.

I really hope it returns.

[DarkFlame145]

Yes the games haven't been as strategy oriented as past games. But what I have noticed is that the games are so that making a super bot that can do everything is getting harder and harder. So you have to pick one or two aspects of the game. I mean in 07 you didn't see a majority of bots that could pick up the tubes effectively and had great ramps. Now some bots could, but not a tone. You gotta pick which parts of the game you think will score the most points and what is due able by your team. Some bots had great ramp or lifting systems and had less effective grabbers or the other way around. Then with Overdrive, some teams made a killer lap-bot, or a great hurdler. While some teams had an effective hybrid mod.

I hope that FIRST keeps the games where you have to pick which aspects you think will score the most points and which ones you think arn't as critical. I hope that the 09 game is the most exciting and challenging game yet.

[gorrilla]

two words fris-bee

[DarkFlame145]

two words fris-bee

that would be awesome

[Katie_UPS]

Ok, so I got to the fish and then just skipped to the end;

Capture the Flag.


THAT would be a fun game.

[Arthur S]

pshhh its going to be the robo Olympics. we going to have to do the sprint, the swim, the jump, all of it. WOW i just thought of how cool that would be.

[GRST]

Seriously, a water game wouldn't work- here in California there's a drought.:rolleyes:


I would personally love to see another game with lots of robot interaction and alliance strategy. Like Aim High, but maybe with an extra element or two to the game...


Another random thought occurred to me: since the robots will use Wi-Fi to communicate with the Driver's Station this year, what will happen when the people in the audience inevitably try to create about 20 different ad-hoc networks? I know there's 11 channels for 802.11, but they can overlap slightly in terms of interference, so there might be communication issues if things fall the wrong way...

[gorrilla]

i think they have figured that out they wouldn't just do something that dosent work

[ttldomination]

Hm...1 Game element eh..that sounds intriguing.

Because then the defensive robots can't exactly guard all of the playing elements. I think that would be more interesting than what we've had in the past.

[gorrilla]

Hm...1 Game element eh..that sounds intriguing.

Because then the defensive robots can't exactly guard all of the playing elements. I think that would be more interesting than what we've had in the past.


actually in the past defense hasent been that hard to do but it was always about where you were defending and who you were defending

[Daniel_LaFleur]

actually in the past defense hasent been that hard to do but it was always about where you were defending and who you were defending

You are right, defense isn't that difficult.

However, effective defense against a powerful, efficient, offensive robot takes an understanding of what the offensive bot wants to do. And you need to know this during the build season, not learn it on the field.

A great defensive robot is designed from the ground up, just like a great offensive robot is.

[Jonathan Norris]

Another random thought occurred to me: since the robots will use Wi-Fi to communicate with the Driver's Station this year, what will happen when the people in the audience inevitably try to create about 20 different ad-hoc networks? I know there's 11 channels for 802.11, but they can overlap slightly in terms of interference, so there might be communication issues if things fall the wrong way...

I think i remember them saying we are going to use 802.11 N which has far more channels. But just like every year, wireless networks will most likely not be allowed in the pits or stands.

[Devon27]

I just watched some of the old matches posted here (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=69520) and realized that 1997 is very similar to 2007 (there is a center rack with multiple levels and inner tubes are used) and 1998 looks similar to 2008 (overpasses and balls are used) so maybe we will see floppies and pucks this year?

[EricH]

I just watched some of the old matches posted here (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=69520) and realized that 1997 is very similar to 2007 (there is a center rack with multiple levels and inner tubes are used) and 1998 looks similar to 2008 (overpasses and balls are used) so maybe we will see floppies and pucks this year?Frisbees maybe. I think FIRST said they wouldn't use floppies again due to the filling breaking up (foam peanuts). Then again, you never know. I don't think 2006 was similar to 1996 (and on up back the line).

[gorrilla]

whats the difference between 802.11 and 802.11n?

anyways its going to be a good suprise plan on using the new control system to its full potential

[GBIT]

If the current trend holds true it will be Squares of some kind

2008 - Trackball (Ball)
2007 - Ringer (Circle)
2006 - poof (Ball)
2005 - Tetra (Triangle)
2004 - Kick Ball (Ball)
2003 - Stackables (Square)
2002 - Soccer Ball (Ball)

So that is what it will be......

[EricH]

If the current trend holds true it will be Squares of some kind

2008 - Trackball (Ball)
2007 - Ringer (Circle)
2006 - poof (Ball)
2005 - Tetra (Triangle)
2004 - Kick Ball (Ball)
2003 - Stackables (Square)
2002 - Soccer Ball (Ball)

So that is what it will be......The old "FIRST Logo Trend" has long been debunked. Odd object, likely. Square of some kind, not so much. Look before 2002. The previous non-ball game element was a circle, and there wasn't one before that.

I'm still holding out for a traffic cone, and I'm sure some people still want footballs.

[gorrilla]

playing football would be so much fun

[DarkFlame145]

I think it's too early for football cause the bots would have launchers like the ones in 06. So i think it will be a couple more years till we will have a chance to see a football. I'm guessing squares or triangles this year. I dont see how they could do something new with a ball/circle this year, that hasn't been done in the past 3 years. But we wont know till Jan.

[gorrilla]

yeah but footballs would have to be lunched differently i think having to lift other robots would be cool!

[DarkFlame145]

yeah but footballs would have to be lunched differently i think having to lift other robots would be cool!

I have seen football launchers (not the loading system) where it's just 2 wheels that shoot the ball out, like a baseball pitcher, but on it's side.

[gorrilla]

we should do something with fire like having to put out or start a fire like one alliance has to put it out and the other alliance has to start it or something

[Wetzel]

yeah but footballs would have to be lunched differently i think having to lift other robots would be cool!

Lifting other robots has been done, in 2007. I'm still waiting for rugby balls. Has wobble, but not the problematic laces of a football.

Wetzel

[Nate Smith]

I think i remember them saying we are going to use 802.11 N which has far more channels. But just like every year, wireless networks will most likely not be allowed in the pits or stands.

With the FIRST forums still being down, I can't verify this(any of the beta teams are welcome to add in the info though), but I do remember someone involved with the testing(someone from FIRST, I believe) saying that they could successfully run multiple machines on a single channel without any problems.

Something I wonder is if the wireless hardware the beta teams received was still in the original boxes, or in a "white box" that may mean FIRST had tweaked the settings on the system - possible settings I see as helping with the new system's security are some form of WEP/WPA, as well as turning on "n-only" mode(I don't know if such a thing exists, but I know that my 11g router lets me choose between "mixed-mode (b+g)" or "g-only".) There's still a lot of hardware that doesn't come with 11n support, since it still hasn't been officially ratified as a standard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/802.11n). Letting the hardware only talk to 11n devices could greatly limit the potential devices that could interfere.

[NickE]

Something I wonder is if the wireless hardware the beta teams received was still in the original boxes, or in a "white box" that may mean FIRST had tweaked the settings on the system.
The wireless network equipment was in its original boxes. However, it was neccesary to use a computer to configure the devices to connect to each other.

[Team2339]

Perhaps a soccer/Basketball combo with at least two balls. Teams have to pass before scoring. Scoring could be low for a few points, high for more points. Autonomous could require capturing and scoring with the right colored ball.

Of course, if we are using cubes, maybe we build a platform out of the correct color cubes, then climb up on it to score more. The higher, the more points. Autonomous would be putting the right cubes in the right areas.

We should look for a game piece with a low cost per piece. We will need a lot of them.:)

[ttldomination]

Well, here's what I think.

In the past years, the FTC game and the FRC game are closely linked. Not *exactly* the same but in the overall concept, the two games are very similar.

So, going along those concepts, I expect to see some terrain on the field. Possibly some ramps and platforms as well.

As far as gaming element is concerned, I'm not that worried about what the gaming element will be. But I doubt that it will be anything "new". Unless it's the fish that Dave posted. :D

[Daniel_LaFleur]

I think i remember them saying we are going to use 802.11 N which has far more channels. But just like every year, wireless networks will most likely not be allowed in the pits or stands.

whats the difference between 802.11 and 802.11n?

anyways its going to be a good suprise plan on using the new control system to its full potential

802.11 is the overall specification. 802.11n is a specific specification within the 802.11 specification family of requirements.

and 802.11n has 11 channels, just like 802.11 B/G. It just includes some specific requirements. 3 channels are non-overlapping.

All the robots and the field should be able to run on a single channel, shareing the bandwidth.

[Wayne C.]

Well, here's what I think.

In the past years, the FTC game and the FRC game are closely linked. Not *exactly* the same but in the overall concept, the two games are very similar.



So since this year's FTC game is played with hockey pucks ("Face Off" ) do you suggest a hockey type game will be the theme? Will checking be allowed?

..... well supposedly there are lots of Hockey Moms around these days.

WC :cool:

[lingomaniac88]

I think we may have to use one of the techniques demonstrated at Atlanta this past April when revealing the cRIO. I remember them showing text recognition, and I think you could do color recognition as well... Uno, anyone?

[Daniel_LaFleur]

I think we may have to use one of the techniques demonstrated at Atlanta this past April when revealing the cRIO. I remember them showing text recognition, and I think you could do color recognition as well... Uno, anyone?

The cRIO can do color recognition, shape recognition and has software for text recognition.

[Taylor]

Teams have to pass before scoring.


I love that concept. Boost offensive robot interplay, while allowing for inventive defensive strategy.

[Alan Anderson]

I think we may have to use one of the techniques demonstrated at Atlanta this past April when revealing the cRIO. I remember them showing text recognition,...

Text recognition is said to be possible, but it was not demonstrated. They pretended the robot was reading the words in that demo, but it was actually just recognizing the shape of the background that the text was written on. One piece of paper had a rectangle, and the other an ellipse.

[DarkFlame145]

I think a voice controlled system for the bot would be cool

[Daniel_LaFleur]

I think a voice controlled system for the bot would be cool

Voice control would be cool.

I'd like to see a tablet (Pocket PC or Tablet PC) that displays the game field and the location of your robot. From there you'd use a stylus to draw where you want to go and the robot would calculate how to get there and move on it's own (of course using onboard collision avoidance systems :D )

[Alan Anderson]

I'd like to see a tablet (Pocket PC or Tablet PC) that displays the game field and the location of your robot. From there you'd use a stylus to draw where you want to go and the robot would calculate how to get there and move on it's own (of course using onboard collision avoidance systems :D )

You mean like Team 111's StangPS with Wilddraw?

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20273
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19477

[AdamHeard]

You mean like Team 111's StangPS with Wilddraw?

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20273
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19477

40 had a similar system in 2006 I believe. just drew their auton routes with a stylus on a pocket pc.

[Mark Pendergast]

I would like to see a Pirate theme - Arrrrrrrr
(Blue carpet - just to get you in the mood.)
With triangular ramps all over the place - waves.)

The robots would be like pirate ships - out to find burried treasure.
There would be written clues to where the treasure was burried.
Lots of pirate chests (Square or course) - probably numbered or named.

In auto mode - you sail out and read text clues on the field that indicate which number/name of chest has the booty. Grab the correct chest(s) and get it/them back to home base. (If you get the booty, you get 10 points, if you grab the wrong one it is minus 20).

The robots will all have a hopper/box mounted in front to catch cannon balls - circles.
There will be dozens of cannon balls thrown onto the field by human players. The robots pick these up and fire them into the box/hopper of the opposing alliance. You get 20 points for everyone that you can get to stay in the box.

At the end the robots can release teathered landing boats and the score is the length times the width in yards of the final configuration for each robot.

We have grog at the social - whatever that be...

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[Daniel_LaFleur]

You mean like Team 111's StangPS with Wilddraw?

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20273
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19477

Wow. Very nice.

And yes like that except instead of correcting after a collision (through recalculating the angle to the next waypoint) you'd use collision avoidance (possibly SONAR returns?) and recalculate a path around the obstacle.

[ATannahill]

Thats what Team Krunch did this year, a mentor from 1902 came up at Mission Mayhem and asked if a turn was done by robocoach, and I told him "No, we have three sonars mounted on our robot."

[The Lucas]

Text recognition is said to be possible, but it was not demonstrated. They pretended the robot was reading the words in that demo, but it was actually just recognizing the shape of the background that the text was written on. One piece of paper had a rectangle, and the other an ellipse.

What I heard was that text recognition (OCR) is possible, just not in real time. Color, and shape recognition is real time.

[comphappy]

I have said it once, and i'll say it again and again until one year it will finally be true:

This year's game piece will be pool noodles.

-Leav

(when this happens I want scores of people linking to this post and asking me to predict next year's game piece as well. ;) :P )

Well you see we did have them this year... remember trying to get pool noodles in the winter for the bumpers....

[NickE]

802.11n has 11 channels, just like 802.11 B/G. It just includes some specific requirements. 3 channels are non-overlapping.
This is not neccesarily correct. 802.11 B/G runs on the 2.4ghz band, and 802.11 A runs on the 5ghz band.
802.11 on 2.4ghz only has 11 channels (3 non-overlapping) and 12 channels (no overlapping) on 5ghz.

802.11 N can run on either band, but I believe that the beta teams were instructed to use the 5ghz band.

[glennzo]

Suppose at least one robot from each alliance is autonomous for the duration of the match. Scoring would include multipliers for additional robots in autonomous mode. :D A robot in autonomous mode could still receive data from other robots. :cool:

A playing field with elevations like a ramp or puck would add many challenges.

Dodecahedrons anyone?

[artdutra04]

And so it begins....

http://redherringsociety.org/redherring.jpg

-dave



.So the 2009 game was based around going fishing in New Jersey (http://flickr.com/photos/mbgrigby/2455407938/)? :p

Nice.



// My apologies to those (including quite a few of my friends) who hail from Jersey. ;-)

[gorrilla]

well if it is an Atlantic red haring it could be indicating any other state on the eastern seaboard








i think theres a pink floyd cover like that picture of new jersey what was it animals? dont seem to remember a fish song though!



based on that im going to assume the game will include some sort of flying pig balloon! or a laser light system!

[Greg McKaskle]

What I heard was that text recognition (OCR) is possible, just not in real time. Color, and shape recognition is real time.

To define if something can be done in real time, you have to define what that time limit is.

IMAQ does support OCR, shape, pattern, and color matching along with binary morphology and convolutions. OCR was demonstrated early on, but in Atlanta, there were a limited number of signs, and shape recognition was selected to avoid having to train an entire font to read two words. Using OCR would have been overkill, and probably less accurate as well.

Greg McKaskle

[Spartan151]

Oooh! I have an idea!!!! We're gonna play foosball this year!!!

Eh, but in reality, I don't have any serious thoughts on what it will be.

[Aidan F. Browne]

Perhaps this entry in today's NI News is somehow relevant...http://sine.ni.com/cs/app/doc/p/id/cs-11420?metc=mtqgm2.

[EricH]

Aidan, you do realize that you're going to have to ref the water game at some point, right? And due to the visibility issues, you're probably going to need to be IN the water to make the right call. Are you sure you want to be in the water with a bunch of robots?

[Wetzel]

High-definition video cameras with crisp, movie-like video imagesThis is what I see as having a chance of being relevant. Then again, water is cool so long as I am not working at the event. :D


Wetzel

[ttldomination]

Although it's been mentioned before, I'll say it again, I think water is extremely unlikely.

1. Water is hard to build, yes, water is hard to build. :D. At regionals, if you're looking at a robot playing field with the 2-D layout of this year, and then you think about going about roughly 6 feet high. That' is a LARGE field. Also a lot of water. FIRST makes challenges, but I don't think they are cruel.

2. About Dave's fish, I have hypothesis about that. it could be that he's just trying to get the hype up about the feared water game or that the field this year will be "bumpy". The fish has scales and is generally bumpy. Expect terrain this year.

With the FTC game having some soft of terrain this year, I wouldn't be surprised to see the FRC game have some sort of terrain as well.

[Travis Hoffman]

2. About Dave's fish, I have hypothesis about that. it could be that he's just trying to get the hype up about the feared water game or that the field this year will be "bumpy". The fish has scales and is generally bumpy. Expect terrain this year.



Maybe the terrain will BE fish. Sushi, anyone? :D

[gorrilla]

or well call it super sushi saturday

or maybe mega mackeral movers? having to proccess fish would be interesting

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Maybe the terrain will BE fish. Sushi, anyone? :D

Eeewwwww ... I hope not.

Consider the stench after a 3 day event under those lights :eek:

[gorrilla]

well they could be frozen and every one would have to wear jackets?

[DarkFlame145]

2. About Dave's fish, I have hypothesis about that. it could be that he's just trying to get the hype up about the feared water game or that the field this year will be "bumpy". The fish has scales and is generally bumpy. Expect terrain this year.



I agree that it could be Dave playing some sort of a mind game with us. I wouldn't be surprised. We still love you though Dave, keep em clues coming.

[Libby K]

it could be Dave playing some sort of a mind game with us.


Could be?! Try 'most definitely is'. I've learned to stop listening to Dave between April and January. It makes my life a whole lot less stressful.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Could be?! Try 'most definitely is'. I've learned to stop listening to Dave between April and January. It makes my life a whole lot less stressful.

I don't go quite that far, I listen to dave and then assume anything that contains the words 'game', 'hint', 'water', or 'jello' are jokes. Other times mr. Lavery can be quite funny and informative. Plus, it is nice to read posts that are usually free from grammatical and spelling errors. (I cant say always, I haven't read all of his posts)

And about the frozen fish, try keeping fish frozen in Hawaii, or Brazil. Yeah though, frozen fish would work GREAT in Michigan, just open the window a crack.

Im still holding out for construction barrels, just cuz I want to see robots do what I want to do whenever I see them. :D

[gorrilla]

whats a construction barrel? is that like a 55 gallon drum

[Wetzel]

whats a construction barrel? is that like a 55 gallon drum
http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/1014834/2/istockphoto_1014834_road_construction_barrel.jpg

[Branden Ghena]

Construction Barrels aka Michigan's State Tree ;)

[gorrilla]

http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/1014834/2/istockphoto_1014834_road_construction_barrel.jpg

oh i call those stationary targets :D

[Sunbun]

You know, if a water game's out of the question...

...what about Robo-Quidditch?

[ttldomination]

Robot Quidditch and water game is now out of the question. :D.

It's just that.

1. It's hard enough to make regular robots, much less a flying robot. :D.

2. Assuming ur on the ground, the whole passing aspect of the game is totally wack. One robot would hold the ball the entire time.

[AustinSchuh]

It would be a bit tough if your robot was disabled 10 feet off the ground...

[Andrew141WOBOT]

i always epicly fail when guessing the game. also, i just wanted the 141st post;)

[DarkFlame145]

i always epicly fail when guessing the game. also, i just wanted the 141st post;)

Sorry dude someone beat ya, you where 142

[EricH]

oh i call those stationary targets :D
We can fix that... Albert (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/31673)! Now they're moving targets.:p

[gorrilla]

We can fix that... Albert (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/31673)! Now they're moving targets.:p

ha! i want to go next year but it costs to much:mad:

[Andrew Schreiber]

ha! i want to go next year but it costs to much:mad:

I second this notion, except I can't go because Kettering has classes then. And its like the first week of classes so I shouldnt skip... go figure.

But yes, If there are any doubts that the Construction Barrel is our state tree I can go out and grab a picture of one of our state parks, (I-75) and the forest on it. :(

[GaryVoshol]

And so it begins....

http://redherringsociety.org/redherring.jpg

-dave



.

http://www.worldwidewords.org/articles/herring.htm

[gorrilla]

so we are smoking fish... awsome

[Daniel_LaFleur]

So we'll be fishing for plastic red herrings?

[IKE]

You know, if a water game's out of the question...

...what about Robo-Quidditch?

I should have read this before before last nights design challenge. Thought we better teach the kids about buoyancy.

These are boats made of modeling clay and then loaded until they sink with BBs.

[ebarker]

Somewhere in North America a water game is being examined.....

http://www.kellmarine.org/my_images/DSC_00.JPG



more information might be found here: a lot more photos (http://www.kellmarine.org/zenphoto/index.php?album=waterbot&image=DSC_00.JPG)

[T3H_K3YM45T3R]

I think that we will have to cut down a tree with a herring...

you get terrain in a forest, and there are trees in forests. trees are generally cylindrical shaped.

there are streams and creeks that run through forests, streams and creeks have fish in them...and water, trees need water

so that means that we could have like 55gallon drums full of water stacked on top of each other in some sort of random order and the two alliances will have to separate them and stack them in the correct order, all while trying to keep from knocking them over on other robots and trying not to bust them as to spill water. then have to move the stacked barrels to certain locations on the playing field as marked by blue circles in the playing field carpet.
bonus points could then be awarded during the autonomous period for correctly moving to a stack of barrels with a certain shape on the bottom barrel such as a square, circle, or triangle...or a picture of a shrubbery

then again this could idea could be formulated from Monty Python and the Holy Grail and be completely wrong...but it's worth a shot :cool:

[hipsterjr]

Whatever the game is, I think it will be a big change from past games. It will be like "Triple Play" when alliences grew from 2 to 3 teams. I expect that kinda of change to acompany the new controllers this year.

[jax1488]

i just hope it has to do with climbing something, im tired of all this ground floor games lol

we need something like 04 or 03 again.

bring back the struggle on king of the hill, nothing made the crowd and game harder than yelling at your robot to push harder to get all four wheels on top in time.

also climbing on top of things is hard, brings a new level of thinking out a drive train and design.

i wouldnt mind a game where we have to climb over rubble, or something that moves, it would really put drivers to the test :)

[Dr Theta]

I think that they are really going to try and test the new system by increasing the number of robots on an alliance to 4, aiding this by decreasing the robot size limit. They will also probably try to put a premium on mobility by using multiple stationary field elements. I also think that they will continue with alliance game-pieces, band I think that they will use a similar scoring system to 2007 where multiple scores in a specific area had an exponential increase in score. It brought out an interesting strategic wrinkle when it came to offense as far as using your own pieces to maximize offensive output or use them to defensively limit your opponent. I am also personally leaning toward cubic game pieces. As far as the end game, who knows? :confused:

[dodar]

OMG! i just saw the video of th IRI people unveiling the control system and i just got a AMAZING IDEA!

since they really want to bring the camera back and their robot had LED's on all sides tha they might want us to drive in the dark using jut the camera and th crowd would use the robot LED lights to see the robots :yikes:

[team1203 4life]

WAIT WAIT, I GOT IT!!!!

What if....

it's just a picture of a fish.

Agreed u guys read way to much into this i mean i can hardly wait the 1 month 21 days 15 hours 19 min 37 sec until the game is announced but honestly we are never going to guess what first is going to give us thats the point

[Enigma's puzzle]

3 robots per alliance, two on your own side of a 2 foot wall and one on your opponents side, the other alliance has the the opposite, two on thier side and one on yours. There is a bucket of some sort on each end.
There are 10 to 20 nerf balls around the arena. you have to put the balls in the bucket on your opponets side and or just on there side. you score 3 for each ball in the bucket, and 1 for each one just on the opponents side.

[jax1488]

3 robots per alliance, two on your own side of a 2 foot wall and one on your opponents side, the other alliance has the the opposite, two on thier side and one on yours. There is a bucket of some sort on each end.
There are 10 to 20 nerf balls around the arena. you have to put the balls in the bucket on your opponets side and or just on there side. you score 3 for each ball in the bucket, and 1 for each one just on the opponents side.

i LOVE you idea... dont know why.. just seems like it would work =D lol

[spc295]

What are the chances they would do something like changing the robot deminsions, or the robot weight, or like taking away the cims and giving us some other motor?

[EricH]

What are the chances they would do something like changing the robot deminsions, or the robot weight, or like taking away the cims and giving us some other motor?
Fairly low on the motor question. Then again, this is the FRC GDC we're talking about.

As for the others: the last changes were in 2005. 2007 had the height/weight classes, which were pretty good. 2005 went from 30" x 36" x 5' to 28" x 38" x 5'. I don't remember when/what the previous change was, or the one before that. We're probably about due for another, but there's just no telling.

[Andrew Schreiber]

As for the others: the last changes were in 2005. 2007 had the height/weight classes, which were pretty good. 2005 went from 30" x 36" x 5' to 28" x 38" x 5'. I don't remember when/what the previous change was, or the one before that. We're probably about due for another, but there's just no telling.

I enjoyed the height/weight classes. But I know there is an OSHA rule about weight(Which I can't find at the moment) so I wouldn't count on an increase in bot weight. Also, height and width are limited by doors. I don't see us getting a major change in size or weight anytime soon.

Instead of the mentioned OSHA rule I suggest another set of guidelines for teens, http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/youth/restaurant/poster_lifting.html and for general http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/electricalcontractors/materials/heavy.html#Weight of Objects

[EricH]

I enjoyed the height/weight classes. But I know there is an OSHA rule about weight(Which I can't find at the moment) so I wouldn't count on an increase in bot weight. Also, height and width are limited by doors. I don't see us getting a major change in size or weight anytime soon.
I seem to remember 75#/person on a 2-person lift having been cited on occasion. With battery and bumpers (15# each), robots are right at 150#, and a 2-person lift means that each is lifting 75#.

Door limitations is correct; I now recall that the previous size was 36" x 36" base, which won't fit through a lot of doors. So they lost 6" on one side. Then they changed it within that. You never know what they'll change next...

[spc295]

I hope they dont change the size on us, because I have put way to much time into designing a universal chassis, and come Jan 3 I dont want to have to start over, or make any changes.

[Wetzel]

I hope they dont change the size on us, because I have put way to much time into designing a universal chassis, and come Jan 3 I dont want to have to start over, or make any changes.
This is the type of thing that puts an evil glint in Dave's eye and a smile on his face...

[dlavery]

I hope they dont change the size on us, because I have put way to much time into designing a universal chassis, and come Jan 3 I dont want to have to start over, or make any changes.

So you mean you spent a lot of time doing the thing that FIRST asks teams not to do? Hmmmm. :rolleyes:

Yeah, Jeff is right....

-dave


.

[Sam2197]

Somewhere in North America a water game is being examined.....

http://www.kellmarine.org/my_images/DSC_00.JPG



more information might be found here: a lot more photos (http://www.kellmarine.org/zenphoto/index.php?album=waterbot&image=DSC_00.JPG)



would that be considered rack and row...

[Daniel_LaFleur]

So you mean you spent a lot of time doing the thing that FIRST asks teams not to do? Hmmmm. :rolleyes:

Yeah, Jeff is right....

-dave


.

Oh No.
Dave is smiling.
**Shudders**

[mtaman02]

I sense a disturbance in the force. A presence I felt since........

[synth3tk]

Oh No.
Dave is smiling.
**Shudders**
Let's try not to scare any new CDers

He shudders, because he's thinking about all the evil hints and red herrings, the ones that the WONDERFUL Dave keeps from us, making us feel safe. SAFE. DAVE IS SAFE....

[spc295]

So you mean you spent a lot of time doing the thing that FIRST asks teams not to do? Hmmmm. :rolleyes:

Yeah, Jeff is right....

-dave


.

there is no rule that says we cant draw chassis in CAD Programs, we just cant start milling any of the drawings, or building anything yet.:rolleyes:

[synth3tk]

there is no rule that says we cant draw chassis in CAD Programs, we just cant start milling any of the drawings, or building anything yet.:rolleyes:
Dave, that's what we, in the video game world, call getting "pwned".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pwned

[EricH]

there is no rule that says we cant draw chassis in CAD Programs, we just cant start milling any of the drawings, or building anything yet.:rolleyes:
Yes... and no. From the 2008 rules (the most current available in this case), R27 reads:
<R27> Prior to the Kick-off: Before the formal start of the Robot Build Season, teams are encouraged to think as much as they please about their ROBOTS. They may develop prototypes, create proof-of-concept models, and conduct design exercises. Teams may gather all the raw stock materials and COTS COMPONENTS they want. But absolutely no fabrication or assembly of any elements intended for the final ROBOT is permitted prior to the Kick-off presentation and would now be in effect. You are correct, design is not prohibited, especially at vague levels. You could even build the designs, provided that anything you build does not make it onto the final robot.

HOWEVER: Bill's Blog (http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2008/10/im-back-with-some-advice.html)advises against this. Moreover (and more to the point), there is an explanatory note right before <R27> that reads in part:Teams can not be prevented from thinking about their hardware and software designs, and it is not our intention to do so. However, the timeline permitted for the development of the actual competition version of the ROBOT is severely, and intentionally, restricted. [...] But completing detailed dimensioned drawings of parts, and any actual fabrication of any hardware items intended to go on the actual competition ROBOT is prohibited outside of the approved fabrication periods. The removed portion is examples of acceptable activities.

So, you are borderline right now. You may or may not have those drawings, but if you don't, you might want to consider not proceeding further. Of course, a proof-of-concept of something like a universal chassis might be worth building as a proof-of-concept, whether or not it was used in competition. While these quotes are not rules, they are from official sources, and should be treated as such.

This is one of those areas that could change a bit, especially with Dave having noticed.

[dlavery]

there is no rule that says we cant draw chassis in CAD Programs, we just cant start milling any of the drawings, or building anything yet.:rolleyes:

FIRST has been pretty clear in stating that you should not be preparing any final, detailed, dimensioned designs (or fabricating final parts, etc) before the start of the build season. Both the referenced portion of Section 8.3.4 of the previous rules, and the entry in Bill's Blog (http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2008/10/im-back-with-some-advice.html) give information regarding this intent. But when you state, as you did in your original post, that "I have put way to much time into designing a universal chassis, and come Jan 3 I dont want to have to start over, or make any changes" then you make it unambiguous that is exactly what you are doing. FIRST's intent and those actions are obviously in conflict. Based on the advice from Bill's Blog, you might want to think carefully about just how much time you want to invest in developing a detailed final design that you may not be able to use.

Dave, that's what we, in the video game world, call getting "pwned".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pwned
and that's what we, in the engineering world, call a completely unnecessary statement.

-dave



.

[Vikesrock]

I believe Dave has just successfully executed the often elusive pwn-back (I would link to Urban Dictionary here, but that site is definitely on, if not over, the line of things I am comfortable linking to on CD).

[JaneYoung]

The last little bit of exchanges in this thread are a great example of what I sometimes think of as the Dave phenomenon and although cool, I sometimes wonder if his points are getting across to our young and future engineering minds. Dave is well-known in CD for his humor, his hints, and his wit. For many who take the time to read his posts very carefully, he is also known for his intelligent wisdom, his guidance, and his wealth of knowledge. The concern I have in this last exchange is that some folks will get caught up in the pwn/pwn-back and potentially miss the information that he shared in his post regarding design aspects of the robot as well as providing an opportunity to think beyond the gaming world and into the engineering world. Different perspectives, different expectations - if one thinks about it. Dave is very cool and also very fun, but he is also a respected source of knowledge and experience. It an amazing opportunity for the young students involved in FRC to experience.

Sorry, I've been wanting to say this for several years and finally did. I'll stop now. :)

[Vikesrock]

The last little bit of exchanges in this thread are a great example of what I sometimes think of as the Dave phenomenon and although cool, I sometimes wonder if his points are getting across to our young and future engineering minds. Dave is well-known in CD for his humor, his hints, and his wit. For many who take the time to read his posts very carefully, he is also known for his intelligent wisdom, his guidance, and his wealth of knowledge. The concern I have in this last exchange is that some folks will get caught up in the pwn/pwn-back and potentially miss the information that he shared in his post regarding design aspects of the robot as well as providing an opportunity to think beyond the gaming world and into the engineering world. Different perspectives, different expectations - if one thinks about it. Dave is very cool and also very fun, but he is also a respected source of knowledge and experience. It an amazing opportunity for the young students involved in FRC to experience.

Sorry, I've been wanting to say this for several years and finally did. I'll stop now. :)

Thank you Jane, you are right on as always. My post was in no way meant to take anything away from the informative and insightful post Dave made and if even one person gets "caught up in it" and misses what Dave or you wrote then I am sorry.

If you are reading this and you didn't read both Dave and Jane's post, please go back now and do so.

[JaneYoung]

Kevin, thank you for your kind words.
Actually, you created an amazing example for me to point to with the elusive pwn-back - in asking young students to please take the time to think past the thought they have in their head, when reading Dave's posts, that they are a hint or they are funny. Dave's posts can be all or some of that, for sure, but they are often much much more as well. That's all I was asking for folks to think about. We are limited by our own preconceived notions sometimes, missing great opportunities to see great beauty or to learn from the best.

Thank you again. :)
Jane

[Burmeister #279]

[edit] Not to interrupt.....
Eventually the GDC's gonna have a game piece called Red Herring just to mess with all of us on behalf of Dave lol >.<

[spc295]

FIRST has been pretty clear in stating that you should not be preparing any final, detailed, dimensioned designs (or fabricating final parts, etc) before the start of the build season. Both the referenced portion of Section 8.3.4 of the previous rules, and the entry in Bill's Blog (http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2008/10/im-back-with-some-advice.html) give information regarding this intent. But when you state, as you did in your original post, that "I have put way to much time into designing a universal chassis, and come Jan 3 I dont want to have to start over, or make any changes" then you make it unambiguous that is exactly what you are doing. FIRST's intent and those actions are obviously in conflict. Based on the advice from Bill's Blog, you might want to think carefully about just how much time you want to invest in developing a detailed final design that you may not be able to use.


and that's what we, in the engineering world, call a completely unnecessary statement.

-dave



.

I agree with what you are saying. what i meant was that it would be nice if the game really fit with our chassis, but by no means were we trying to gain an unfair advantage.

[jax1488]

well im going to go off the topic of the last few posts and would like to see something in new games, two ideas.

a crossbreed between past games. 03/06 perhaps? points such as the nerf balls being shot or dumped into goals, and king of the hill in the middle ramp. maybe a 02/04 combo, gather balls into a movable goal, and the further your robot is able to bring it up a set amount of steps the more points are gathered, the steps being progressively harder and higher to climb as you go up. maybe even a 05/01.. how many tetra's u stack can outweigh the other teams to cause more points (which are based on a seesaw obviously).

idea number two- 3 alliances of 2 teams. would be interesting what kind of "party" games would be made out of that combo lol

[ttldomination]

hehehe. Luckily my team decided to hold off building a universal chassis due to the information on Bill's blog. :D.

[EricH]

idea number two- 3 alliances of 2 teams. would be interesting what kind of "party" games would be made out of that combo lol4v2.

Back in the dark ages before alliances, the game was 1v1v1. One minor detail, though--the two "weaker" teams would gang up on the "stronger" team most of the time, forcing the "stronger" team to lose. While FIRST couldn't prove collaboration, they decided to require it, and now we have the alliance system. A 2v2v2 would bring that back.

[lenny8]

Ok this is what my guess is on the new game this year...

First i predict that we go from 3 teams to 4 teams also, the human players will have a more important role as was proven last year because the ability to control the bot in autonomous. in autonomous mode we will have to recognize a certain color and shape to pick something up and set it somewhere. the game will be a heavy terrain based field (ramps and speed bumps). the game will inculed more than one game piece and will be two different sizes and ( the curve ball) DIFFERENT SHAPES *gasp* :cool:


man dosent that sound cool....:D

[synth3tk]

I know it's a bit off-topic, but regarding that pwn/pwn-back bit.

Yeah, we have GP. Yes, there are people of all ages on here. But I'm not going to be a completely different person entirely on CD. I'll keep the foul language and reference to rough-stuff out of here, but a small joke shouldn't be taken that far out of context.

It was my way of [trying] to bring humor into it. Guess I'll keep my mouth shut next time. Or my keyboard unplugged.

Yes, that was humor...

[jax1488]

4v2.

Back in the dark ages before alliances, the game was 1v1v1. One minor detail, though--the two "weaker" teams would gang up on the "stronger" team most of the time, forcing the "stronger" team to lose. While FIRST couldn't prove collaboration, they decided to require it, and now we have the alliance system. A 2v2v2 would bring that back.

i know that the game used to be 1v1v1. im just saying i think it would be exciting to watch it, and if the so called "weaker teams" do gang up on "stronger teams" then people are being ungraciously unprofessional.

but having 2v2v2 and that happening shouldnt be looked as a negative, it should be part of the game too, revolve a game around that, and see what happens.

we should all have learned by now that they can create any game for any situation and shock us to death. so you never know what will happen.

don't assume i didn't know about previous games and what happened at them.

[EricH]

[...]and if the so called "weaker teams" do gang up on "stronger teams" then people are being ungraciously unprofessional. On the contrary, I would argue that it is highly professional. If you know that someone else is better than you in a 1-on-1, you get a partner so it is now a 1-on-2 and you have a chance. Nothing prevents your opponent from doing the same thing. (Unless, of course, doing so is against the rules.) This happens in the professional world all the time, does it not?

Whether or not it is gracious is, however, up to interpretation.

[ChrisH]

On the contrary, I would argue that it is highly professional. If you know that someone else is better than you in a 1-on-1, you get a partner so it is now a 1-on-2 and you have a chance. Nothing prevents your opponent from doing the same thing. (Unless, of course, doing so is against the rules.) This happens in the professional world all the time, does it not?

Whether or not it is gracious is, however, up to interpretation.

Actually in the last 1v1v1 game, it was not ncessary for the two "weaker" or lower ranked teams to gang up on a stronger or higher ranked opponent. It was enough for them to decide - independently - that there was no way they were going to leave one of "that team's" balls on the rails. Since it was possible for any team to knock off any ball in any position, and it was time consuming to get the ball up in the first place, the highest ranked team just had a bigger target on their back. Going after the balls of the highest ranked team was just good strategy, especially if you couldn't put up balls on your own.

Defending against such action by two robots with a single robot was nigh impossible. While you were keeping one away from your balls, the other would come from the back and take them down, because it was in their best interest to do so. Not necessarily because there was any agreement between any of the teams. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" and all that.

[Dr Theta]

How's this for an idea? Have different robot placements that allow for varying difficulty as far as autonomous scoring goes and the value of the scores in autonomous are contingent upon robot placement at the beginning. Such as a position that only allows the robot to enter the field during the second half of autonomous period but your score multiplier is based on the roll of a d6 dice where 2 sides are 1, two are 2, and the other two are 3. after the robots are placed. It would be an interesting balance of risk, reward, and alliance strategy.

[Steven Sigley]

If i had to guess i'm going to say an uneven playing field with walls (to make you use the camera) and pool noodles as the playing object. Probably ramp in the middle for bonus at the end.

[Electricia 1599]

Wow, Guys these are some pretty awesome game plans. i personally think water is down the drain for the game this year or any year coming soon but some of the other ideas would be sweet to do. Ice in particular would be interesting to see.