View Full Version : I'm back with some advice
EricVanWyk
14-10-2008, 14:24
http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2008/10/im-back-with-some-advice.html
Uh oh...
Any thoughts?
TheOtherGuy
14-10-2008, 14:35
...
water game? :rolleyes:
artdutra04
14-10-2008, 14:53
You know what would suck?
If a warning like that meant that something as fundamental as the small CIMs or Kitbot chassis wasn't in the KoP anymore...
Either that, or they shrunk the maximum dimensions by an inch or two. :ahh:
MrForbes
14-10-2008, 14:54
With 842 being the Championship Chairman's winners, this is as good a time as any to bring that up!
Seriously though, it looks like we might want to be exploring some other ways of making robots move around on dry land of various contours.
waialua359
14-10-2008, 15:01
:eek: :eek: :eek:
Any thoughts?Though Bill does not speak plainly, it appears he suggests that we shouldn't assume any particular robot design. He further hints not to make any large purchases of any particular material. There is a strong possibility that the game will be released sometime in January.... :)
In other words, it may be much ado about nothing (the "inch or two" view) or we may be thrown for a doozy of a different game (the "how can robots move" view). I'm going for the latter.
JaneYoung
14-10-2008, 15:09
:eek: :eek: :eek:
In moments such as these, I think of:
- tums
- pepcid ac
- cookies and cream ice cream
- gingerale (an old cure)
- milk and crackers (another old cure)
- a tall mountain top from which to yodel angst
- carpet to pace a large path into
- juggling - I don't know why but it's fun
- coffee, a large cup of coffee
MrForbes
14-10-2008, 15:12
It's lunch time here.....
This advice is typically given, though not officially, at some time between September and January (or before) as some teams start experimenting.
I would assume that there is something besides the control system and the game that will be changing. Probably the dimensions (2005, changed the dimensions when we got C and 3v3), though maybe some key element is going to change.
81 days to kickoff... Too long!
Or...Oh, no! The No-Metal on Robots Rule!:yikes::rolleyes:
MrForbes
14-10-2008, 15:17
We'll defintely be working on both the balancing 2 wheel robot, the 6 legged robot, and the wood chassis 8 wheel drive robot ideas this fall.
Wheels? Legs? Wood? Read the message again...
...do not assume any particular robot design... :D
MrForbes
14-10-2008, 15:27
Exactly! we're not assuming any one robot design will be right for the game, so we're developing several different ideas.
Wheels? Legs? Wood? Read the message again...
:DWhich is, of course, why they are testing three designs.
I'm surprised they aren't testing the hamster-powered robot, the "Tinfoil Freshman", and the flying robot.:p
:rolleyes:Of course, I'm certain team 71 is already done with their prototyping for about 200 different ideas, and the most recent would have been the game-figuring-out robot. Not sure if the prototype works.../:rolleyes:
Chath Maral
14-10-2008, 15:37
Nooooooooooooo! X.x there goes my programming ideas... I really hope not
TheOtherGuy
14-10-2008, 15:39
Haha, the sad part is we actually were working on [designing] a 2 wheeled balancing robot for FRC competitions and a wooden chassis (which we'll actually probably use, unless this new game forces us to change it!)...
Wait, I thought 71 had their game-figuring-out robot working for several years now? :rolleyes:
Al Skierkiewicz
14-10-2008, 16:00
Guys,
This is a standard warning for teams who are trying to get an early start. I remind teams of this every year. The KOP is not finalized yet so the exact motors and other hardware is not fixed in stone. Not even I know what might be in the kit for the electrical side, including which battery we might be getting. Make general plans but don't set your design. Can you imagine a team that dedicates itself to casters only to find a game that has a series of ramps announced in January. Remember, it was not too long ago that teams could choose a size/weight class.
billbo911
14-10-2008, 16:52
The only thing we can glean from Bill's post that we didn't know before is..........
(Hear the crickets?)
For the most part we have been flat landers the past few years. How would your current frame design do with a 3 D playing field? Ramps steps and all that challenging stuff. I would love to see them bring in 30 tons of bolders, road balast and sand for the playing surface. ( never happen ) Also, for the teams that have gone with and built off of the IFI kit frame, It appears IFI is out of the supply chain. If a kit frame is included it's bound to be different.
The 6 wheel low rider frames have become the standard. Would be nice to have a playing field that would put them at a disadvantage to shake things up.
. I would love to see them bring in 30 tons of bolders, road balast and sand for the playing surface.
Sounds like fun, but only if you agree to recruit a few hundred friends for the set-up and strike duty for the regionals...;)
:rolleyes:Of course, I'm certain team 71 is already done with their prototyping for about 200 different ideas, and the most recent would have been the game-figuring-out robot. Not sure if the prototype works.../:rolleyes:
I'm going back to Hammond for my college fall break this weekend, so maybe I'll need to have a reunion with my buddies from 71 to see what they know...:D
(Ridiculously Off-Topic Sidenote: Seriously though. I am sooo psyched to go back to Hammond this weekend!)
Daniel_LaFleur
14-10-2008, 18:01
Guys,
This is a standard warning for teams who are trying to get an early start. I remind teams of this every year. The KOP is not finalized yet so the exact motors and other hardware is not fixed in stone. Not even I know what might be in the kit for the electrical side, including which battery we might be getting. Make general plans but don't set your design. Can you imagine a team that dedicates itself to casters only to find a game that has a series of ramps announced in January. Remember, it was not too long ago that teams could choose a size/weight class.
Here's hoping to something wild and different this year.
bigbeezy
14-10-2008, 18:05
i was just talking to one of the guys on the team the other night that the field could be sand:eek:
i would think sand would be more likely than water, although still probabilly not going to happen.
maybe multi surface field, carpet with sandpit in the middle???:rolleyes:
many teams recently have gone with less than 1" ground clearance. i would be nice to see the game force these teams to redesign their frames.
i was just talking to one of the guys on the team the other night that the field could be sand:eek:
i would think sand would be more likely than water, although still probabilly not going to happen.
maybe multi surface field, carpet with sandpit in the middle???:rolleyes:
many teams recently have gone with less than 1" ground clearance. i would be nice to see the game force these teams to redesign their frames.
Too many teams would have an advantage if it was sand. All the coastal teams would have ready-made testing grounds, with tougher conditions than an FRC field, and the inland teams would have to find sand and put it in a testing area.
Oh, and a lot of the coastal teams are already doing well. (Yes, I'm counting the teams around the Great Lakes as coastal.)
Now corn, on the other hand...
AdamHeard
14-10-2008, 18:15
Too many teams would have an advantage if it was sand. All the coastal teams would have ready-made testing grounds, with tougher conditions than an FRC field, and the inland teams would have to find sand and put it in a testing area.
Oh, and a lot of the coastal teams are already doing well. (Yes, I'm counting the teams around the Great Lakes as coastal.)
Now corn, on the other hand...
Corn.... Like Indianna, Ohio, Michigan and other states I can't think of with lots of corn need the advantage?
Here's hoping to something wild and different this year.
As Grandma Lavery used to say... "be careful what you wish for."
.
Corn.... Like Indianna, Ohio, Michigan and other states I can't think of with lots of corn need the advantage?No, it's more "Like the original teams need the advantage".:rolleyes:
The reason I suggested corn is the original game (Maize Craze) was played on a corn-covered field.
Daniel_LaFleur
14-10-2008, 18:34
As Grandma Lavery used to say... "be careful what you wish for."
.
Every once in a while it's good to have all the paradigms shaken up.
So I'm looking forward to seeing what the GDC throws at us :D
JaneYoung
14-10-2008, 18:35
So I'm looking forward to seeing what the GDC throws at us :D
Daniel,
Have you ever been hit by a red herring? I have 4 letters for you: d u c k !
Here's hoping to something wild and different this year.
I hope we get something nice and simple but still exciting. I would be very disappointed if we saw a major leap into the unknown in terms of game design during the same year in which we all have to adapt to a new control system.
Daniel_LaFleur
14-10-2008, 18:39
Daniel,
Have you ever been hit by a red herring? I have 4 letters for you: d u c k !
Not yet ... but I expect to, soon, now that I've taunted the game gods :eek:
Oh, and which is it ... a herring or a duck ;)
Akash Rastogi
14-10-2008, 19:00
I hope there's no big motor changes in the KOP...
I don't think we should read too much into this. It's always brought up around this time of year that teams who want an early start shouldn't do anything expensive or definite. You never know what we'll get come January.
I'm sure it'll be unforgettable.
wilsonmw04
14-10-2008, 19:06
They change anything they want as long as we can still use four cims.
I hope there's no big motor changes in the KOP...
Why not? I doubt they would switch away from CIM's at this point. Especially with companies like Andymark and Banebots already committing to the CIM for their gearboxes-- but after that, I'm pretty much open to anything.
I would love to see them bring in 30 tons of bolders, road balast and sand for the playing surface.
As one of the guys who would be responsible for moving that stuff in and out of the venue, you're right it will never happen. Even if they put it in the game it will never happen. Because it would take a week just to get the stuff in and we don't have the venue for that long.
They change anything they want as long as we can still use four cims.We got along just fine with only 2 CIMs and 2 drills before 2005... Hey, you got a 2-speed tranny in the KOP! (OK, so it was a planetary... and a pain to mount... but still!)
=Martin=Taylor=
14-10-2008, 20:27
http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2008/10/im-back-with-some-advice.html
Uh oh...
Any thoughts?
-Battlebots (http://www.battlebots.com/Events.html) is hosting its first event in 5 years 1 week after the FIRST Championship....
-There will be a 120 lb. High School Class...
-Some of the people involved in designing the new Jaguars are battlebots builders.
-????? ;) :D
LOL water game!? HAHAHA! thats rich, I've never heard that one before :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Duncan Macdonald
14-10-2008, 21:03
As Grandma Lavery used to say... "be careful what you wish for."
.
Who can imagine the grin on Dave's face when he wrote this.
DonRotolo
14-10-2008, 21:57
For the most part we have been flat landers the past few years.
I doubt sand and boulders would be used - far too messy. But what if the playing field was somewhat hilly or bumpy or otherwise significantly non-flat, perhaps requiring an actual (gasp!) suspension for the wheels? That would shake things up, and good.
So many teams have a standard drivetrain that they buy the materials for and, 3 days after kickoff, have built already, since it's the umpteenth (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0) time they've made one like that.
In the words of Inspector Clouseau (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0075066/)"not any more". or?
As Grandma Lavery used to say... "be careful what you wish for." Point of order: I did not wish for anything, thank you very much.
Point of order: I did not wish for anything, thank you very much.Empty field, coming right up! Or was that, no FRC competition?:rolleyes:
(Favorite corruption in the "Make a wish...and have it horribly corrupted!" thread if someone forgets: Granted, you get nothing!)
lasereyes
14-10-2008, 22:28
I hope this doesn't mean we shouldn't stock up on zip ties.... :P
comphappy
14-10-2008, 23:04
Corn.... hmm that reminds me there a bunch of that all over the floor in the loft above our shop and I have no idea why.
As for the zip ties they were not so nice about them at the Seattle Regional (had to take them all off except for wires and replace them with bolts) while at the Portland one they loved them and never broke.
As for the zip ties they were not so nice about them at the Seattle Regional (had to take them all off except for wires and replace them with bolts) while at the Portland one they loved them and never broke.What were these zip ties used for? I can see if they were being used to hold the robot together, but it it's simply mounting the electronics and stuff like that, I don't remember any rule against it. (Not saying there couldn't be one in 2009, of course.)
So wait...
Why does the robot base have to move?
So wait...
Why does the robot base have to move?Extension rules, the last couple of years. Dunno if those'll be back again. (They weren't exactly the most popular ones...)
kramarczyk
15-10-2008, 07:48
So wait...
Why does the robot base have to move?
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=423887&postcount=6
Talk about answering questions before they are asked!!!
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=423887&postcount=6
Talk about answering questions before they are asked!!!
Well that is just plain creepy. Nasa has obviously perfected both time travel and mind reading....
I think its probably safe to say no sand and no water. They're not going to put the game in an environment that will be detrimental to electronics, gearboxes, and motors.
Corn would be a clear choice if an alternate playing surface was going to be used.
However, I feel this blurb is more to stop teams from beginning their builds early, which IIRC is against the rules.
/haven't been involved with FIRST in a while
//its good to be back
Dave Scheck
15-10-2008, 10:02
I hope we get something nice and simple but still exciting. I would be very disappointed if we saw a major leap into the unknown in terms of game design during the same year in which we all have to adapt to a new control system.I'm on board with this. I just hope that the GDC didn't set their sights to high and say "we're giving them all these new libraries, it'll be easy" like they did with the camera in 2004. I hope they applied some common sense and made the major change the control system and left the game to something manageable. There are going to be enough challenges with the new control system. Give us a year to figure out how to use it to its potential before throwing something insane at us.
I agree that it's the standard "don't anticipate" warning. In spite of my joking above (which I fear may have been taken too seriously), ya never know what will come out of GDC. Maybe a climbing or a hanging game, maybe ramps or floor bumps, maybe another race game like 2008. Maybe not real water, but change of surface -- your robot can be on one surface or the other. Like either you're a ramp-bot or not.
And if you think about it -- all the games have been simple (well, all the ones I've seen for the past couple of years). There have been "add-ons" that make parts of the game more difficult, as well as simpler alternates for letting everyone get to play.
They actually used corn in the "Maize Craze"? When I saw Andy Baker's old video (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=769410&postcount=1) of a match I was wondering what was all over the floor. Then it hit me -- maize -- corn. Corn?!? Wow -- how did the robots perform with all that corn in the gears?
lasereyes
15-10-2008, 11:05
Personally, I think we should look to the FTC for direction. I think we may see the addition of 'rough terrain' areas on the playing field.
Sadly, something gives me the feeling there will not be water involved. :(
Kevin Sevcik
15-10-2008, 11:12
I'm voting against the entire field being some sort of crazy, difficult to navigate surface, be it sand, bumps, water, or a mobility denial system. (http://www.coolhunting.com/archives/2004/07/mobility_denial.php) All of the really difficult mobility challenges in the past 5 years were optional. Plus FIRST has gone to a lot of trouble the past several years putting out a kit-bot that guarantees everyone should have a robot capable of at least moving around the field. I can't really picture the GDC wanting to return to the heady days of rookie bots hobbling around the field getting high-centered on 2" pipes, having wheels fall off, etc.
Pjohn1959
15-10-2008, 12:14
I hope we get something nice and simple but still exciting. I would be very disappointed if we saw a major leap into the unknown in terms of game design during the same year in which we all have to adapt to a new control system.
I echo this thought. For this introductory year of the new controller, I can't see how they could expect us to master that, and build to a complicated playing field/game.
Now the next year 2010, Katie bar the door..............:ahh:
lasereyes
15-10-2008, 13:00
If they do add something to the field, it won't be something like a Mobility Denial System. Something a lot simpler.
Personally, I think Bill is trying to scare us.
I'm voting against the entire field being some sort of crazy, difficult to navigate surface, be it sand, bumps, water, or a mobility denial system. (http://www.coolhunting.com/archives/2004/07/mobility_denial.php) All of the really difficult mobility challenges in the past 5 years were optional. Plus FIRST has gone to a lot of trouble the past several years putting out a kit-bot that guarantees everyone should have a robot capable of at least moving around the field. I can't really picture the GDC wanting to return to the heady days of rookie bots hobbling around the field getting high-centered on 2" pipes, having wheels fall off, etc.
There was a request that went around to Northern VA teams asking for help in mentoring the new rookie teams this year. Perhaps we are moving back to that realm of thought for at least a year. Rather than thinking of it as a restrictive end for rookie teams, perhaps we could think of it as a more open-ended forum for new teams with fresh ideas?
Time to dig up those old RC helicopter drawings I have stashed away...
You know what would suck?
If a warning like that meant that something as fundamental as the small CIMs or Kitbot chassis wasn't in the KoP anymore...
Either that, or they shrunk the maximum dimensions by an inch or two. :ahh:
That would suck shrinking the maximum dimensions... but at IRI they were displaying the new Kit Bot frame for this up coming year, and it was the same dimensions we are used to. I even think the representative said that Rush used the frame this year for competition so they could see how it works.
Keaton
Kevin Sevcik
15-10-2008, 13:34
Still don't buy it. Every kickoff, Woody's going on about how we've provided teams with this easy to build kit-bot, flexible programming environment, etc. This plus the new controller make the push towards more interesting programming clear. Forcing teams, any teams, to struggle to move removes the focus from programming and showing off the new control system. I'm with Cory on this. The game will be just as "simple" as years past, with added emphasis on autonomous and programming.
3 years ago, they introduced the vision system. This year, they will be unveiling a smelling system.
Mark my words.
kramarczyk
15-10-2008, 13:46
That would suck shrinking the maximum dimensions... but at IRI they were displaying the new Kit Bot frame for this up coming year, and it was the same dimensions we are used to. I even think the representative said that Rush used the frame this year for competition so they could see how it works.
Keaton
I believe what you saw was a Rush mentor starting up a business, Team 221 Robotic Systems, (http://www.team221.com/index.html)and not a pre-release chassis for the KoP.
The chassis is discussed in more detail here (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68907).
=Martin=Taylor=
15-10-2008, 14:39
I'm voting against the entire field being some sort of crazy, difficult to navigate surface, be it sand, bumps, water, or a mobility denial system. (http://www.coolhunting.com/archives/2004/07/mobility_denial.php) All of the really difficult mobility challenges in the past 5 years were optional. Plus FIRST has gone to a lot of trouble the past several years putting out a kit-bot that guarantees everyone should have a robot capable of at least moving around the field. I can't really picture the GDC wanting to return to the heady days of rookie bots hobbling around the field getting high-centered on 2" pipes, having wheels fall off, etc.
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_Voo67yWqlTg/RgqhtsSTIWI/AAAAAAAAACk/9__ZiC7LQzA/100_0453.JPG
That bin of balls is the playing field.
That kid is your robot. :D
or maybe he's the game peice? :D
dtengineering
15-10-2008, 15:03
Although I'm in the category of classifying this as a "standard disclaimer", I could also see it being a message not to spend too much on drive train components because there are going to be some really cool ones included in the KOP. After all, if you went out and bought a couple of super-shifters only to find them included in the KoP... well, that wouldn't be BAD news, but it certainly would have been money that you could have spent on something else.
Jason
Joe Ross
15-10-2008, 15:49
Although I'm in the category of classifying this as a "standard disclaimer", I could also see it being a message not to spend too much on drive train components because there are going to be some really cool ones included in the KOP. After all, if you went out and bought a couple of super-shifters only to find them included in the KoP... well, that wouldn't be BAD news, but it certainly would have been money that you could have spent on something else.
Or, being a pessimist...
In 2007 and 2008, there have been new rules to clarify the use of COTS items. For example:
However, COTS items that have been specifically designed as a solution to portion of the FIRST
Robotics Competition challenge may or may not fit within the FRC intent, and must be carefully
considered. If the item provides general functionality that can be utilized in any of several possible
configurations or applications, then it is acceptable (as the teams will still have to design their particular
application of the item). However, COTS items that provide a complete solution for a major ROBOT
function (e.g. a complete manipulator assembly, pre-built pneumatics circuit, or full mobility system) that
require no effort other than just bolting it on to the ROBOT are against the intent of the competition, and
will not be permitted.
Maybe the new rules will make many common COTS components that teams are used to buying illegal. In 2007, there was a lot of backlash, because teams had already purchased items. Now, everybody's gotten a warning...
waialua359
15-10-2008, 15:57
I find it hard for this to be a standard disclaimer. Something's up.
GaryVoshol
15-10-2008, 16:07
Maybe ... No more bumpers! :yikes: It's a coded message to the northern climes that they don't have to go out to the pool supply places before they all shut down for the winter. :P
3 years ago, they introduced the vision system. This year, they will be unveiling a smelling system.
Mark my words.I'd say too easy to jam... Think about it. (Thousands of high school students, plus food and chain grease...)
Who can imagine the grin on Dave's face when he wrote this.
I am far too familiar with this grin. When he makes it, you better be very aware of your surroundings.
Wetzel
billbo911
15-10-2008, 18:00
Still don't buy it. Every kickoff, Woody's going on about how we've provided teams with this easy to build kit-bot, flexible programming environment, etc. This plus the new controller make the push towards more interesting programming clear. Forcing teams, any teams, to struggle to move removes the focus from programming and showing off the new control system. I'm with Cory on this. The game will be just as "simple" as years past, with added emphasis on autonomous and programming.
I'm definitely on the same page with the two you on this one.
The GDC has done a great job in the last few year (emphasis on 2008) with developing games that allowed every level of team to contribute. It also encouraged and rewarded more advanced teams for doing amazing autonomous routines.
commodoredl
15-10-2008, 22:11
My team was wondering if there were any clues given at the Championship like in 07 (Stock market, hamster wheels etc.). I don't recall any, does anyone know if there were?
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