View Full Version : FRC 2009 Game Manual?
xanarchyx
20-10-2008, 17:12
anyone know when they release it. I heard it is released before kickoff and its encrypted? is this true? Like i dont want to believe the person who told me that because it seems kind stupid to give the game manual out to people. I know its encrypted but cant people like somehow get around that?
They usually release the sections that do not pertain to the game well ahead of time, non-encrypted. The rest are released, in encrypted form, a few days before kickoff. The encryption is, shall we say, secure, and I would hope that no one in FIRST makes any serious effort to get around it. Its to prevent the entire FIRST community from overloading FIRST's servers in the minutes following kickoff.
MrForbes
20-10-2008, 17:28
The past couple of years we've gone to our regional kickoff, with the downloaded, encrypted manual on a couple laptops ready to be viewed as soon as they release the key. Hint: if you do this, bring a digital camera so you can snap a picture of the key on the webcast screen, then you can look at your camera and type in the key. Being able to read the manual on the 200 mile ride home is helpful for the first rolling brainstorming session.
Daniel_LaFleur
20-10-2008, 17:37
anyone know when they release it. I heard it is released before kickoff and its encrypted? is this true? Like i dont want to believe the person who told me that because it seems kind stupid to give the game manual out to people. I know its encrypted but cant people like somehow get around that?
While they do give the manual out a few days before the kickoff, it is strongly encrypted.
And as far as someone getting around it ... Yes, it is possible that someone could hack it, however, consider the consequences for someone who did and got caught. Most likely they, and their team, would be barred from playing that year. Is that worth a day or 2 advantage? I don't think so, personally.
a friendly reminder from the CD moderator crew: please refrain from any form of discussion of cracking the manual on these forums.
AdamHeard
20-10-2008, 17:46
The past couple of years we've gone to our regional kickoff, with the downloaded, encrypted manual on a couple laptops ready to be viewed as soon as they release the key. Hint: if you do this, bring a digital camera so you can snap a picture of the key on the webcast screen, then you can look at your camera and type in the key. Being able to read the manual on the 200 mile ride home is helpful for the first rolling brainstorming session.
Why not watch the webcast and save yourself the 200 mile trip?
ttldomination
20-10-2008, 17:50
Ah, so there is a webcast of the regional?
My team has had the luxury of Motorola over the past few years, but this year we are moving to the school so we wanted to make sure that we could watch it somewhere else. But cool!!!.
MrForbes
20-10-2008, 17:53
Why not watch the webcast and save yourself the 200 mile trip?
We get to pick up the KOP too...and it's a good excuse for a road trip! plus we get to visit our FIRST friends in Phoenix.
Ah, so there is a webcast of the regional?
My team has had the luxury of Motorola over the past few years, but this year we are moving to the school so we wanted to make sure that we could watch it somewhere else. But cool!!!.
NASA webcasts and broadcasts the kickoff on NASATV. Details will be released in the near future I would imagine. The webcast is normally located at robotics.nasa.gov.
mtaman02
20-10-2008, 18:05
anyone know when they release it. I heard it is released before kickoff and its encrypted? is this true? Like i dont want to believe the person who told me that because it seems kind stupid to give the game manual out to people. I know its encrypted but cant people like somehow get around that?
It's not easily able to get around and if those who do get around it then it just spoils it for them. Trying to break the encryption is like trying to figure out dlavery's game hints on a yearly basis lol.
Vikesrock
20-10-2008, 18:36
anyone know when they release it. I heard it is released before kickoff and its encrypted? is this true? Like i dont want to believe the person who told me that because it seems kind stupid to give the game manual out to people. I know its encrypted but cant people like somehow get around that?
Last year the encrypted sections were encrypted using AES. I don't recall the strength used, but the minimum for AES is 128 bits.
The largest ever publicly known brute force attack was of an RC5-64 key. It took a distributed computing network 1,757 days to complete the attack. The 64 bit key cracked would take a maximum of 1.84*10^19 operations to brute force. The 128 bit minimum key used in AES would take 3.4*10^38 operations. Assuming you had access to a distributed network the size of the one used for the RC5-64 crack it would take almost 10^20 years to complete the crack.
In addition there are only 3 publicly known breaks of AES (all sidechannel breaks based on specific implementations) allowing for decryption faster than brute-force. One requires physical access to the machine that performed the encryption. Another only works for encrypted ZIP archives create using WinZIP. The third is only valid for OpenSSL.
All three breaks are completely irrelevant here. I trust that if the encryption is good enough for goverment documents of SECRET (min. 128 bit AES) or TOP SECRET (min. 256 bit AES) levels than it is good enough for a few days of any high school students or team mentors that want to try to crack it.
DonRotolo
20-10-2008, 18:58
What makes it even more difficult is that they use random characters, not a word. A very strong password, something like 20 or 25 characters.
I don;t know of any way to crack it aside from brute force. Assuming it was "only" 64 bits, you'd gain a -1754 (or so) day advantage as opposed to just watching the NASA webcast. In simple terms, you'd be all ready for the 2009 game in...2014 or so.:ahh:
Good luck with that.
What makes it even more difficult is that they use random characters, not a word. A very strong password, something like 20 or 25 characters.
I don;t know of any way to crack it aside from brute force. Assuming it was "only" 64 bits, you'd gain a -1754 (or so) day advantage as opposed to just watching the NASA webcast. In simple terms, you'd be all ready for the 2009 game in...2014 or so.:ahh:
While that's usually been the case, 2008's password was a phrase related to the game. I would imagine that, in some sense, that's marginally less secure -- if only because determining that phrase is contingent upon knowing the information that it's protecting. :)
While that's usually been the case, 2008's password was a phrase related to the game. I would imagine that, in some sense, that's marginally less secure -- if only because determining that phrase is contingent upon knowing the information that it's protecting. :)As was 2005's and (IIRC) 2007's.
It gets worse for any would-be hackers, because there might or might not be words, characters, and numbers, in any combination of caps and lowercase.
Actually, FIRST released the 2008 password--minus characters--in hint #3, in a scrambled form, and nobody even figured out what the real words were, let alone what else was in there. Tells you something about how strong the encryption is.
Of course, it could be possible that the 2009 encryption key has already been released.
-dave
.
Of course, it could be possible that the 2009 encryption key has already been released.
-dave
.
Oh no, guys, look what you did....
Michael Hill
20-10-2008, 20:00
Of course, it could be possible that the 2009 encryption key has already been released.
-dave
.
Let the games begin...
lingomaniac88
20-10-2008, 20:08
Of course, it could be possible that the 2009 encryption key has already been released.
-dave
.
Right on cue, Mr. Lavery, as always. *applauds*
Andy Grady
20-10-2008, 20:31
H2Ohustle2CATCHbanana2oo9
:)
H2Ohustle2CATCHbanana2oo9
:)
Almost... Replace H2O with J3LL0 and you've got it.:p
ShotgunNinja
20-10-2008, 20:43
They usually release the sections that do not pertain to the game well ahead of time, non-encrypted. The rest are released, in encrypted form, a few days before kickoff. The encryption is, shall we say, secure, and I would hope that no one in FIRST makes any serious effort to get around it. Its to prevent the entire FIRST community from overloading FIRST's servers in the minutes following kickoff.
Just because you said that, people WILL try to break it. It's the Internet, dude.
Just because you said that, people WILL try to break it. It's the Internet, dude.
This is FIRST. We teach Gracious Professionalism. Neither part of GP supports hacking the encryption. Unless, of course, you're a CIA decrypter and are trying to break a terrorist's code or something like that.
Just because you said that, people WILL try to break it. It's the Internet, dude.
Its also FIRST. And as we're constantly reminded, this is not about robots, but people.
Hiding in your basement, working to decrypt something a few days early, missing out on sleep more than is typical in FIRST, and missing out on people, only to gain information that might help build a superior robot helps the robot, not people. Engaging in a collective thought of "Oh..My..God..DAVE, WE'RE SUPPOSED TO DO WHAT AGAIN" with your team, and FIRSTers around the world, while on the same build schedule as everyone else helps people.
And it wouldn't make any grandmother I know proud.
Of course, it could be possible that the 2009 encryption key has already been released.
-dave
.
Can't we just ban him or something this time of year? :D
Graham Donaldson
20-10-2008, 21:00
Of course, it could be possible that the 2009 encryption key has already been released.
-dave
.
Oh god... here we go again.
Can't we have a year off from this madness? We never come anywhere near to what the game is...can't we just forget it and wait until kickoff?
Branden Ghena
20-10-2008, 21:06
Can't we just ban him or something this time of year?
Where's the fun in that? :D
ttldomination
20-10-2008, 21:14
True...true...excuse me while i scour the FIRST site and their information and try to find something. :D
ATannahill
20-10-2008, 21:17
How did we not see dave's post coming?
xanarchyx
20-10-2008, 22:22
OK just to clarify, i'm a rookie and i was just wondering why they release it early. I have no intentions to crack it or anything like that. I don't even know how that's possible if i wanted to.
a friendly reminder from the CD moderator crew: please refrain from any form of discussion of cracking the manual on these forums.
Why are we so worried about this? We do not need GP from the teams to keep the manual safe from being viewed early. Have you seen the size of the key? I would argue that it is simply impossible with our current technology for anyone to crack this key in 3 days.
BTW - using any Lavery clue to figure anything out could be equally impossible.
IBdrummer
20-10-2008, 23:10
OK just to clarify, i'm a rookie and i was just wondering why they release it early. I have no intentions to crack it or anything like that. I don't even know how that's possible if i wanted to.
Since I guess you missed it:
They usually release the sections that do not pertain to the game well ahead of time, non-encrypted. The rest are released, in encrypted form, a few days before kickoff. The encryption is, shall we say, secure, and I would hope that no one in FIRST makes any serious effort to get around it. Its to prevent the entire FIRST community from overloading FIRST's servers in the minutes following kickoff.
Since everyone triesto get the game right when it is released, FIRST releases it ahead of time encrypted so they can get the game out to everyone at the same time without complications of a crashed server and unhappy teams that can't look up the rules to the game.
dtengineering
20-10-2008, 23:43
It is likely a moot point given the security of the key, but I don't neccesarily agree with the concept that it is "not GP to try to break the key".... at least not in Canada... not yet.
First of all, it is clear that the GDC gives hints, however cryptic, to encourage speculation over the nature of the game. In the past, those hints have even included reference to the encryption code. If attempts to discover the nature of the game, or the encryption code, were frowned upon by the Game Design Committee, I can't see why they would choose to encourage them with relevant hints. (Well, aside from the fact that it provides them with a brief interlude of humour before the onslaught of Q&A forums questions start pouring in.)
Secondly the encrypted manuals are released openly. Cracking the manuals does not require intrusive or damaging hacking.
Thirdly, if someone were to figure out how to crack a high security code of this nature in two days, that single achievement would outweigh every other technical innovation and development ever made as a result of FRC... combined. The commercial, political and mathematical impact would be pheonomonal.
However, I do have to add that it may be illegal (and thus non-GP behaviour) in the USA to attempt to crack the code due to the provisions of the Digital Millenium Copyright Act. I'm not familiar with all the provisions of the act, but do know that there are restrictions on the attempt (even a futile attempt?) to crack a code protecting a copyrighted work or distributing software to that end.
However DMCA does not apply in Canada (although our govenment is proposing something similar, but in some ways worse) or other parts of the world... so given that it is still legal to try to break a code in Canada, and the GDC actively encourages teams to try to figure out the nature of the game in advance of kick off -- specifically integrating the password in to the hints -- I'm not sure why it would inherently be non-GP behaviour for an individual or team not covered by DMCA to attempt to break the code.
It would spoil the fun of kickoff for those who knew the game in advance, but they would be too busy publishing in Nature, and/or explaining exactly what they did and how to their national security agencies to really worry about that. The FRC kickoff would receive more mass media attention than it ever has... likely FIRST and all FRC teams would benefit greatly from this kind of media attention.
Most likely those attempting to crack the code will learn a little about encryption and a lot about futility. But I don't automatically assume that their actions would be either ungracious or unprofessional.
Jason
P.S. Ironically, perhaps, I would view an attempt to open a KOP case before kickoff in order to get a head start as non-GP behaviour... but no one encourages that, and it would require damaging part of the KOP.
Regarding Dave's post: What if the encryption key is the same as a past year's key? Anyone remember the 2004 code?
----
Even if a team was able to crack the encryption code, it would be thoroughly unfulfiling. It'd be like the preacher who played hooky from church one week to play a round of golf, and scored three consecutive aces. Sure, it's a great achievement, but who could he tell?
a friendly reminder from the CD moderator crew: please refrain from any form of discussion of cracking the manual on these forums.I have discovered a truly marvellous method to crack this, which this margin is too narrow to contain. :D With apologies to Pierre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermat%27s_Last_Theorem).
If I actually was able to crack the code (not likely), I'd probably do it -- but I'd be too polite to actually look. And if I opened up the KOP I wouldn't know what was in there. Motors are motors, that's about it. Except maybe the game piece. Well, if it was obviously a game piece. Some years they don't supply a game piece. (And how about Stack Attack? Who would have thought the box was the game piece??) The only thing in there I know is in there -- that's the software CDs. Then again, they may be preshipped with the controllers.
Here is the 2006 "PDF Manual Code": S1x240JrTBmsqf95DL06FdsTM33H
2008's was Drive!Straight?turn!LEFT!? Which was obviously :rolleyes: easy if you mixed up the letters in the third hint Vet hurdling FIRST tetra.
Have at it.
Bomberofdoom
22-10-2008, 01:27
Only problem is you didn't have the exclamation marks (!) and questions marks (?) in between. Even if you did find the words, you'd still be stuck for a month guessing the order of the words and what is missing.
And I think that what Dave's saying is that a hint's coming up next week or at the start of November.
Anyone checked his MySpace/Facebook. :P
Oh, and try to search through bill's blog.
Oh, great, now I'm stuck in it too.....THANK YOU DAVE....
Maybe before I would have said trying to crack the code is against the rules, but Dave is asking for it now. Of course, the answer to his questions is almost certainly "no", but given the success of last year's hint I suspect the GDC will try something like that again...
AustinSchuh
22-10-2008, 21:31
Have at it.
I haven't tried this to make sure, but I think this fits in your margin.
http://pdfcrack.sourceforge.net/
Do I win?
Vikesrock
22-10-2008, 21:47
I haven't tried this to make sure, but I think this fits in your margin.
http://pdfcrack.sourceforge.net/
Do I win?
Nope, I don't think so. It tries to crack the password using word lists and bruteforcing. Brute forcing a key that long would take about 10^20 years using a network of ~35,000-40,000 2GHz Athlon XP machines. Wordlists would likely not lower the time required enough even if words are used like last year, the key is too long and there are still a number of other characters in the key.
You're welcome to try this tool when the encrypted sections come out (if they come out), but I don't think you'll get very far.
AustinSchuh
22-10-2008, 22:05
It tries to crack the password using word lists and bruteforcing. Brute forcing a key that long would take about 10^20 years using a network of ~35,000-40,000 2GHz Athlon XP machines. Wordlists would likely not lower the time required enough even if words are used like last year, the key is too long and there are still a number of other characters in the key.
Good statistic! You could shrink that number significantly if you equipped those computers with Nvidia graphics cards and off boarded the computation to them. But still, there is no way we are going to get past the encryption. 10^18 or 10^17 years are still a lot and definitely not worth it.
I don't remember how the PDF's are encrypted (Probably the highest level), but the lowest level of encryption can be broken in a day or two.
Vikesrock
22-10-2008, 22:13
Good statistic! You could shrink that number significantly if you equipped those computers with Nvidia graphics cards and off boarded the computation to them. But still, there is no way we are going to get past the encryption. 10^18 or 10^17 years are still a lot and definitely not worth it.
I don't remember how the PDF's are encrypted (Probably the highest level), but the lowest level of encryption can be broken in a day or two.
That is a very rough calculation based on Distributed.net's brute force crack of RC-64
I am fairly certain that they used AES encryption last year which is a minimum 128bit key. From what I can see all of the "PDFCrack" tools claim to be able to brute force 40 bit keys (not AES) in 2-4 days.
Do I win?I don't know -- did you crack the 2009 password yet? :) And read the link about the margin -- it is one of the ultimate teases. Probably got the idea from Dave?
AustinSchuh
23-10-2008, 18:41
And read the link about the margin -- it is one of the ultimate teases. Probably got the idea from Dave?
That link was a fun read. Definitely up Dave's alley.
Jreed129
10-11-2008, 12:50
Of course, it could be possible that the 2009 encryption key has already been released.
-dave
.
if this is a clue and it has been released already could it be some combination of teams who have been beta testing the new control system?
if this is a clue and it has been released already could it be some combination of teams who have been beta testing the new control system?
Rule 1. Never take Dave's hint's seriously.
Rule 2. Watergame.
Jreed129
10-11-2008, 14:13
Rule 2. Watergame.
<sarcasm>Water game with a new control system I am so sure... that must be the big change for this year to come.</sarcasm>
Rule 1. Never take Dave's hint's seriously.
Rule 2. Watergame.
Rule 3. Any combination of: red herrings, jello, clowns, and bananas.
Rule 4. Add water to Rule 3.
Tom Line
10-11-2008, 16:21
if this is a clue and it has been released already could it be some combination of teams who have been beta testing the new control system?
Of course it could. There are 18 teams. So assuming that they don't repeat any of the numbers, and assuming they can use one team or all the teams to create a key, I'll leave the algebra up to you to realize that just that alone makes it improbable to try all the iterations :D
Jreed129
10-11-2008, 16:36
Of course it could. There are 18 teams. So assuming that they don't repeat any of the numbers, and assuming they can use one team or all the teams to create a key, I'll leave the algebra up to you to realize that just that alone makes it improbable to try all the iterations :D
true but it narrows the options by a little bit. using only the teams and numbers compaired to ten numbers(0-9) and twenty-six letters twice (a-z, A-Z) based that they only us capitals of which the teams use capitals to start their name. yet I could narrow quite a bit.
I do not know all 18 of the beta teams other wise i might start looking into posiblities.
also they might stick with the simple version as they did this past year:
Drive!Right?Turn!LEFT?
or something like that it was posted earlier in this post.
Daniel_LaFleur
10-11-2008, 17:34
true but it narrows the options by a little bit. using only the teams and numbers compaired to ten numbers(0-9) and twenty-six letters twice (a-z, A-Z) based that they only us capitals of which the teams use capitals to start their name. yet I could narrow quite a bit.
I do not know all 18 of the beta teams other wise i might start looking into posiblities.
also they might stick with the simple version as they did this past year:
Drive!Right?Turn!LEFT?
or something like that it was posted earlier in this post.
Or Dave could be messing with your head. :D
Or Dave could be messing with your head. :D
^ I'd bet on this one.
Wayne C.
10-11-2008, 19:02
Of course, it could be possible that the 2009 encryption key has already been released.
-dave
.
red herring=
clupea harengus rosea
Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur
Or Dave could be messing with your head.
^ I'd bet on this one.
So would I. Because even if a key was posted, the document it is supposed to unlock is probably no where near finished. I recall rumors of major changes having been made to previous games in the last week before Kickoff. Just one more reason for digital distribution ... it adds days to the "drop dead date"
Nate Smith
14-11-2008, 20:12
Didn't see this posted yet, so here goes...
Non-game-specific parts of the manual now available at http://usfirst.org/community/frc/content.aspx?id=452
<sarcasm>Water game with a new control system I am so sure... that must be the big change for this year to come.</sarcasm>
Murphy's Law.
-Vivek
ATannahill
14-11-2008, 21:34
3.6.1.1 Time Slots
All teams will receive a comprehensive list of practice times. Your team must be ready
to practice at the designated times and on the specified fields. If your team/robot cannot
be ready for your practice time slot, don’t forfeit your team’s practice time entirely. Send
in your human player to practice alone. Your team members may want to scout other
teams and their strategies during practice and the actual competition matches.
Does this mean the return of human players?
AustinSchuh
14-11-2008, 22:22
Does this mean the return of human players?
I think the rule you quoted has been around for a while and is standard practice.
Mike Schreiber
14-11-2008, 22:56
Regarding Dave's post: What if the encryption key is the same as a past year's key? Anyone remember the 2004 code?
----
Even if a team was able to crack the encryption code, it would be thoroughly unfulfiling. It'd be like the preacher who played hooky from church one week to play a round of golf, and scored three consecutive aces. Sure, it's a great achievement, but who could he tell?
You may not be able to tell that you cracked it, but if I managed it by some miraculous feat I would post a ridiculously accurate prediction in a manner that made the game sound impossibly ridiculous (so no one would know I was serious) just so I can say I'm amazing with clues and use the famed cliche "I told you so"
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