Early Bird Control System [Archive]

Mark McLeod

19-11-2008, 13:31

There is another photo pending that shows the Victor and Jaguar side-by-side. Those Jags are massive!

In the past I've been a little critical of First for not providing value for the fees. I with draw my judgement. Dam those Jags are big!

It even includes the Wago Tool!
It seems to just be a fine blade. If we use a close match are there potential problems we should be wary of?
I just imagine having only one Waco tool means it will immediately be misplaced. ;)

EricVanWyk

19-11-2008, 13:53

It seems to just be a fine blade. If we use a close match are there potential problems we should be wary of?
I just imagine having only one Waco tool means it will immediately be misplaced. ;)

There are heretics among us who claim that The Wago Tool is nothing but a screwdriver. Heed not their false claims. Observe how The Wago Tool handles itself during these outbursts: The Wago Tool allows their fallacies to flow past itself unheeded, for it is above such petty insults. The Wago Tool holds within itself true knowledge of its function, which no external forces may sully.

One may attempt to use lesser tools, but Hark! Thou must still be true to the spirit of The Wago Tool. Insert the tool fully, in a graceful glide. Once sheathed in its Wago Connector Home, remove thy hand from the tool and insert the stripped wire. Gently remove the tool, and smartly tug the wire to verify your success.

colin340

19-11-2008, 14:07

that is no WOGO tool guys sorry but if you look the WOGO web site it says the WOGO tool has a "Partially insulated shaft makes this tool an optimal choice for connecting terminal blocks"

link-http://www.wago.us/products/2453.htm

looks nice but man i hope they give us 5 more lbs

and the jags are shiny and nice but they big and i still have questions on there air flow

Travis Hoffman

19-11-2008, 14:08

There is another photo pending that shows the Victor and Jaguar side-by-side. Those Jags are massive!

It seems to just be a fine blade. If we use a close match are there potential problems we should be wary of?
I just imagine having only one Waco tool means it will immediately be misplaced. ;)

I'm pretty sure those "Wago Tools" serve a double life as "Wago promotional flathead mini-screwdrivers their sales reps hand out to potential customers", of which I have several in my desk at work. :p

I don't think the ground will open up and swallow you whole if you use a slightly "irregular" mini screwdriver to get the job done.

Rickertsen2

19-11-2008, 14:08

That is a large number of of really big components to fit in a small space.

Elgin Clock

19-11-2008, 14:11

Are the joysticks comfortable (in ergonomic terms) & interchangable, or do we have two right-handed sticks again?
I'm not familiar with that brand.

Lowfategg

19-11-2008, 14:17

Are the joysticks comfortable (in ergonomic terms) & interchangable, or do we have two right-handed sticks again?
I'm not familiar with that brand.

Yes they are right and left handed. Can't wait to use these things! (I am a Logitech fan boy) :P

http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/gaming/pc_gaming/joysticks/devices/302&cl=us,en

Taylor

19-11-2008, 14:38

That is a large number of of really big components to fit in a small space.

Nobody said they had to fit in a small space. Yet. We'll see in January.

Lowfategg

19-11-2008, 14:42

Nobody said they had to fit in a small space. Yet. We'll see in January.

I am sure we can smash it in a very small space.

We might have to think outside of the box...

Joe Ross

19-11-2008, 14:45

That is a large number of of really big components to fit in a small space.

Realize that a lot of the things pictured do not go on the robot. Also, many of the components are optional (pending the official rules).

Kingofl337

19-11-2008, 15:11

I wonder what the cost will be for just a 2nd CRio and Power Distro Board. Seeing many teams will have a spare Digital Side car and Analog Bumper.

Alan Anderson

19-11-2008, 15:11

Are the joysticks comfortable (in ergonomic terms) & interchangable, or do we have two right-handed sticks again?
I'm not familiar with that brand.

I made it a point to try them out when More Robotics of Milwaukee came to Kokomo for a demo over the weekend. The joysticks are ambidextrous (i.e. left-right symmetrical) and don't feel different when held with each hand. They return to center with relatively strong force, and will likely need to be firmly mounted to a base in order to be comfortable to use. They're not as "smooth" around the center as the CH Flightsticks, but which is better is probably a matter of personal preference.

I don't think there's any mechanical calibration to get out of whack. That alone is going to make things a lot easier on the drivers.

vivek16

19-11-2008, 15:31

I have a WAGO tool. It's a screwdriver but sharp enough to cut yourself with. :P

-Vivek

EDIT: accidentaly of course :yikes:

Jeff Pahl

19-11-2008, 15:47

looks nice but man i hope they give us 5 more lbs

Don't hold your breath on that one. There are some very compelling reasons to keep the entire robot weight below 150 lbs.
120 + 15 [bumpers] + 13 [battery] = 148

That is a large number of of really big components to fit in a small space.

Both of these are just additional engineering challenges :) Just like we face every day in industry. It's all just part of the fun.

Taylor

19-11-2008, 15:58

I wonder what the cost will be for just a 2nd CRio and Power Distro Board. Seeing many teams will have a spare Digital Side car and Analog Bumper.

I believe the NI fellows that made the presentation at the IndianaFIRST forum said one extra package will be available to each FIRST teams for $650 (any more and you pay full price).

Tom Bottiglieri

19-11-2008, 16:13

Don't hold your breath on that one. There are some very compelling reasons to keep the entire robot weight below 150 lbs.
120 + 15 [bumpers] + 13 [battery] = 148

OSHA Max. 2 man lift weight = 150 lbs.

Jeff Pahl

19-11-2008, 16:16

OSHA Max. 2 man lift weight = 150 lbs.

Exactly. And as an "old guy" who always seemed to get stuck with carrying the bot on and off the field with the human player so the drivers could set up the controls, my back is of the opinion that's still too heavy :)

Alan Anderson

19-11-2008, 16:30

I believe the NI fellows that made the presentation at the IndianaFIRST forum said one extra package will be available to each FIRST teams for $650 (any more and you pay full price).

He didn't give a firm number, but he suggested that "less than $700" was the target. However, that "one extra package" is only the NI-supplied components: the cRIO and its plug-in modules. Power Distribution, Sidecars, and Breakouts are to be available a la carte through AndyMark (also at an as yet undisclosed price).

IndySam

19-11-2008, 16:35

I believe the NI fellows that made the presentation at the IndianaFIRST forum said one extra package will be available to each FIRST teams for $650 (any more and you pay full price).

I though they said $1000 for an the extra cRIO and each team could purchase one at that price.

I believe Andy was estimating $200-$300 for the PD, sidecar and breakouts.

waialua359

19-11-2008, 17:02

[cdm-description=photo]32056[/cdm-description]

NICE! Lucky you, ground shipping is fast shipping where you're located.

Mark McLeod

19-11-2008, 17:14

NICE! Lucky you, ground shipping is fast shipping where you're located.
That's because we're downhill from New Hampshire.:)
On the way to Hawaii the ground shipping has to get pretty deep to find ground then climb all the way back up those Hawaiian mountains.:eek:

Stu Bloom

19-11-2008, 17:15

I though they said $1000 for an the extra cRIO and each team could purchase one at that price.

I believe Andy was estimating $200-$300 for the PD, sidecar and breakouts.

I believe Barry said "under $1000, and probably under $700". Whether or not he knew the actual figure is questionable.

wilsonmw04

19-11-2008, 18:06

ours just shipped :-)

Ed Sparks

19-11-2008, 18:51

Looks like I'll have plenty of parts to model this year for the FirstCadLibrary (http://www.firstcadlibrary.com).

Doug G

19-11-2008, 19:22

ours just shipped :-)

How do you know if it shipped? E-mail?

ATannahill

19-11-2008, 19:25

E-mail to the shipping contact registered in TIMS.

Vikesrock

19-11-2008, 19:25

How do you know if it shipped? E-mail?

An email goes out to your shipping contact with a tracking number once it gets picked up in NH.

wilsonmw04

19-11-2008, 19:35

How do you know if it shipped? E-mail?

I received an email this evening with my tracking number saying something weighing 26 lbs was picked up from NH. It had a reference number of "2106" attached tp the order. It didn't say what it was, but i'd bet good money that it's the control system.

yarb65

19-11-2008, 19:56

Weight limit cannot be increased because of OSHA regs.That would be over the limit that 2 students are allowed to lift by reg.

roboticWanderor

19-11-2008, 21:56

That is a large number of of really big components to fit in a small space.
I did it! in SolidWorks! on this chassis (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/31575)! The power distribution block, and the sidecar make your layout a lot simpler, routing all of the same types of wires to one place on the robot, so you can efficiently place things like the hulking jaguars without much heartache. there are also no need for arrays of spikes, or multiple breaker panels for your larger motors.

Jon236

19-11-2008, 22:26

Weight limit cannot be increased because of OSHA regs.That would be over the limit that 2 students are allowed to lift by reg.

To be clear, there is no OSHA lifting regulations. There is a NIOSH lifting equation, which has not been verified experimentally. The 75 pounds x 2 may come from UPS weight limits. On average, the NIOSH equation actually suggests a 50 pound limit per person.

So, while there is no regulatory requirement that prevents FIRST from adding 5 pounds to the robot's weight limit, good safety practices should. Besides, we always need more engineering challenges!

Coach Norm

19-11-2008, 22:48

We got our confirmation email today from UPS that a package shipped from NH to Austin. We will get it on Monday. To bad, NI could not have delivered it to us since we are right down the road. We are excited to get it.

Lowfategg

19-11-2008, 22:57

Ours is on its way.

comphappy

20-11-2008, 00:56

To be clear, there is no OSHA lifting regulations. There is a NIOSH lifting equation, which has not been verified experimentally. The 75 pounds x 2 may come from UPS weight limits. On average, the NIOSH equation actually suggests a 50 pound limit per person.

So, while there is no regulatory requirement that prevents FIRST from adding 5 pounds to the robot's weight limit, good safety practices should. Besides, we always need more engineering challenges!

If anyone cares here is the actual OSHA section and the NIOSH table at the bottom.
http://www.osha.gov/dts/osta/otm/otm_vii/otm_vii_1.html

R.C.

20-11-2008, 02:23

I did it! in SolidWorks! on this chassis (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/31575)! The power distribution block, and the sidecar make your layout a lot simpler, routing all of the same types of wires to one place on the robot, so you can efficiently place things like the hulking jaguars without much heartache. there are also no need for arrays of spikes, or multiple breaker panels for your larger motors.

Wanna post a render, I'm curious :ahh:

cbale2000

21-11-2008, 00:37

I'm so glad they're giving us good joysticks this year, I've got an Attack 3 that I've had for several years now and it works very well for almost anything. I actually considered using mine on the robot this year if we didn't get good ones in the kit, I guess this solves that problem. :D

Lowfategg

21-11-2008, 00:40

Brandon Holley

21-11-2008, 00:53

I agree even though everyone says I am nuts for not liking the flight sticks!

any "old timer" in FIRST is going to miss those flight sticks, nothing too flashy, just a solid piece of equipment

EricH

21-11-2008, 01:03

any "old timer" in FIRST is going to miss those flight sticks, nothing too flashy, just a solid piece of equipmentEvery REALLY old "old-timer" is going to miss the sticks before those! Yep, the single-button, single-trigger, ambidextrous ones that came pre-2004 were missed (and used at every opportunity possible by those who had them and didn't like the ones provided).

Nuttyman54

21-11-2008, 01:30

Every REALLY old "old-timer" is going to miss the sticks before those! Yep, the single-button, single-trigger, ambidextrous ones that came pre-2004 were missed (and used at every opportunity possible by those who had them and didn't like the ones provided).

The pre-2004 black joysticks you refer too are these Flightsticks we speak of. I don't actually know the name of the tan ones we've been getting recently, but very few people that have used the old standbys like them better.

Jeff Pahl

21-11-2008, 01:38

I don't actually know the name of the tan ones we've been getting recently, but very few people that have used the old standbys like them better.

I don't know the name of the tan ones either, and most of the names I've heard used for them are not suitable for this forum...

We used to check the local Goodwill and thrift stores on a regular basis to pick up old high-quality joysticks. I'm glad that will be a thing of the past.

EricH

21-11-2008, 01:41

The pre-2004 black joysticks you refer too are these Flightsticks we speak of. I don't actually know the name of the tan ones we've been getting recently, but very few people that have used the old standbys like them better.I believe those were also known as Flightsticks. The older ones had the designation "CH" in front. And the teams that had the newer ones--well, some teams didn't like them much--too loose, or not ambidextrous, or too many buttons, or something like that, so they modified them appropriately or went to something else entirely. The older black sticks (some were black and tan/white/gray) have been used by those who don't like the most recent ones.

Billfred

21-11-2008, 06:47

So given the cult following the Flightsticks have, has anyone tested the USB-based Flightstick Pro (http://chproducts.com/retail/j_flight_pro.html) that CH Products still produces with the new driver's station? It seems that they've dropped the standard USB Flightstick, but it seemed like there were a lot more of them in odd shops and eBay than there were gameport ones back in 2004 and 2005 when everyone was scrambling to find the latter.

Brandon Holley

21-11-2008, 09:50

Every REALLY old "old-timer" is going to miss the sticks before those! Yep, the single-button, single-trigger, ambidextrous ones that came pre-2004 were missed (and used at every opportunity possible by those who had them and didn't like the ones provided).

Eric, the black single trigger, single button sticks, are the ones I refer to as "fightsticks"....they say it directly on them

Alan Anderson

21-11-2008, 21:47

I don't actually know the name of the tan ones we've been getting recently, but very few people that have used the old standbys like them better.

Those off-white right-hand-only joysticks are labeled "A/B". I typically called them the "POS" joysticks, though. They're capable of being modified to work well, but out of the box they are...poor.

wilsonmw04

21-11-2008, 23:20

Those off-white right-hand-only joysticks are labeled "A/B". I typically called them the "POS" joysticks, though. They're capable of being modified to work well, but out of the box they are...poor.
Agreed. When trying to use them for tank drive they are just plain "Bad."
The new Attack 3 sticks look much better. I'll know more when my team pulls them out of the box tomorrow.

Qbranch

22-11-2008, 10:05

I'll be very interested to see how the new fuseblock does under high current loads... PC boards have amazed me in the past with how much current traces can handle, but... I just don't know. 4 cims running at max fuse current. That can happen for a few moments as you're accelerating... I'll be interested to see if the voltage supply to the motors drops a rediculous amount. I mean, that's 160A trying to push through a PC board... the same thing we use a giant block of gold plated copper to do now. Just seems like either we're WAY overdoing it with the current maxi block, or the PC board will be overwhelmed... anyone care to offer their opinion on this?

What are the little blue things to the right of the OI panel (there are three of them sitting on black antistatic bags)?

I can hardly wait for us to get ours... I so want to see how much of the vision tools suite they gave teams.

-q

ebmonon36

22-11-2008, 10:28

What are the little blue things to the right of the OI panel (there are three of them sitting on black antistatic bags)?

-q

Those are the analog and pneumatic breakouts (formerly called bumpers)

Eugene Fang

22-11-2008, 13:12

What are the little blue things to the right of the OI panel (there are three of them sitting on black antistatic bags)?
Those are the analog and pneumatic breakouts (formerly called bumpers)

Two are analog breakouts and one is a solenoid breakout

Joe Ross

22-11-2008, 14:26

I'll be very interested to see how the new fuseblock does under high current loads... PC boards have amazed me in the past with how much current traces can handle, but... I just don't know. 4 cims running at max fuse current. That can happen for a few moments as you're accelerating... I'll be interested to see if the voltage supply to the motors drops a rediculous amount. I mean, that's 160A trying to push through a PC board... the same thing we use a giant block of gold plated copper to do now. Just seems like either we're WAY overdoing it with the current maxi block, or the PC board will be overwhelmed... anyone care to offer their opinion on this?

I have not heard any of the beta teams having any problems with the PD board. In our case, the voltage drop seems no worse then the old system. I know FIRST did current measurements of real robots during real matches to make sure everything was designed to handle the real loads.

I can hardly wait for us to get ours... I so want to see how much of the vision tools suite they gave teams.

You don't have to wait to start reading. http://decibel.ni.com/content/docs/DOC-2453#cf

Alan Anderson

22-11-2008, 15:09

I'll be very interested to see how the new fuseblock does under high current loads...

Erik (the designer of the new Power Distribution board) told me this morning that it stayed perfectly cool under conditions that made the main breaker too hot to touch. It has very thick copper.

NickE

22-11-2008, 19:58

any "old timer" in FIRST is going to miss those flight sticks, nothing too flashy, just a solid piece of equipmentYou don't have to miss them. (assuming you have them or can find a place to buy them) We have been using our old flightsticks with success on our beta bot, and it gives us a faster boot up time than when using usb joysticks.

Brandon Holley

23-11-2008, 01:26

You don't have to miss them. (assuming you have them or can find a place to buy them) We have been using our old flightsticks with success on our beta bot, and it gives us a faster boot up time than when using usb joysticks.

We have them, but from what I understand there is currently no place to purchase them, which would technically make them an illegal item, according to last years rules concerning COTS items.

AdamHeard

23-11-2008, 01:36

We have them, but from what I understand there is currently no place to purchase them, which would technically make them an illegal item, according to last years rules concerning COTS items.

Why were they legal the last 4 seasons then? I agree with your reasoning, but there was a separate rule that allowed them I beleive.

EricH

23-11-2008, 01:47

Why were they legal the last 4 seasons then? I agree with your reasoning, but there was a separate rule that allowed them I beleive.
<R36> comes the closest. Why: It can be argued that it is a COTS mechanism (e.g., the handle could be removed and replaced without damage (I think--correct me if I'm wrong)). While it is not commercially available anymore, <R36> covered that. Let's go through the conditions:
--Unmodified and in original condition.
--Not custom made for FRC and provided in the KOP. (While they were KOP items, they weren't custom for FRC.)
--Satisfy all rules (that aren't <R36>) for the year.

If it passes all of them, it's legal for the 2008 season.

It remains to be seen whether or not this will change in 2009.

sanddrag

23-11-2008, 01:50

Why were they legal the last 4 seasons then? I agree with your reasoning, but there was a separate rule that allowed them I beleive.I seem to recall a Q/A forum post that allowed them.

Jeff Pahl

23-11-2008, 21:17

I seem to recall a Q/A forum post that allowed them.

Actually, in the past they have been legal because they are not part of the robot. There have been no rules constraining the driver controls. They have not been required to be listed on the bill of materials or subject to the costing requirements. That's why you can use a $2000 laptop as your dashboard display. Or in the case of 1379, a $5000+ industrial touch screen computer (one of our main sponsor's primary products). There have been no requirements in the inspection checklist to examine anything on the driver controls other than to make sure the correct team number and firmware versions come up on the OI.

Of course, as always, rules are subject to change :)