View Full Version : 2009 Motors
Does anyone know what motor the KOP is going to be included with? My team is hoping to purchase the Andy Mark 2 speed shifter this year but we are kind of hesitant because the picture on the power distribution diagram that came with the control system looked nothing like CIMs.
ATannahill
29-11-2008, 22:12
No. We never do until we see the kit.
No. We never do until we see the kit.
Unless your Dave, jk. Bill warned everyone that the KOP might change dramatically, maybe even the loved cim's might go :eek:. Just wait until kickoff.
gorrilla
29-11-2008, 22:22
i dont see any reason why they would get rid of the cims though:confused:
they work so well
ATannahill
29-11-2008, 22:25
Just like First, If it's not broken, make it better until it is.
Ian Curtis
29-11-2008, 22:27
i dont see any reason why they would get rid of the cims though:confused:
they work so well
CIMS are good at toting around 150 lb robots, it's true. However FIRST does not guarantee that we will be building 150 lb robots come January. We could be building autonomous ornithopters for all we know!
I would be absolutely shocked if the CIM was eliminated. That being said, there is no way I would buy a trany before kickoff.
waialua359
29-11-2008, 22:34
Even if the CIMs were eliminated, hopefully provisions would be offered, such as the AM Planetary gearbox for the FP motor. They also had a tranny for the mini bike CIM motor. So who knows, maybe new motors, but the ability to use the same trannys. :D
gorrilla
29-11-2008, 22:37
maybe more powerful motors?:P
Joe Ross
29-11-2008, 22:40
http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2008/10/im-back-with-some-advice.html
colin340
29-11-2008, 22:40
here's the deal with that, if you Google "DC motor" that motor is the 12th result in the second row of images on my computer and it's the only motor on the page that looks anything like 120 pound robot drive motor. also I really don't see them getting rid of the cim I think it's safe to buy your tranys early
Billfred
29-11-2008, 22:53
Does anyone know what motor the KOP is going to be included with? My team is hoping to purchase the Andy Mark 2 speed shifter this year but we are kind of hesitant because the picture on the power distribution diagram that came with the control system looked nothing like CIMs.
The above is correct; we have no firm knowledge of the kit of parts until Kickoff, the early shipment of parts ('09 control system, '08 IR board) notwithstanding.
That said, we've had CIM motors in the kit of parts in varying quantities since 2002. I don't know about 2002 and 2003, but the 2.5" CIMs in the kits since 2004 have been functionally identical beyond the printing on the housing. I'd be surprised if FIRST dropped the CIM motor, and a little saddened at the loss of a strong, near-indestructible motor, but I wouldn't put it past them.
waialua359
29-11-2008, 23:05
As FIRST gets larger and in more countries, I would hate to see the announcement of new motors at kickoff. The costs are huge to order something during build season and paying $$$ for either 1 or 2 day air costs to get them. We hate ground shipping during build season for obvious reasons. :(
As FIRST gets larger and in more countries, I would hate to see the announcement of new motors at kickoff. The costs are huge to order something during build season and paying $$$ for either 1 or 2 day air costs to get them. We hate ground shipping during build season for obvious reasons. :(
True, that would suck a lot. The Cims are pretty awesome, but with if we had mag ....
Ice Berg
30-11-2008, 01:08
This is just speculation, but on the AndyMark new products page there's info on new toughbox accessories which i would imagine means toughboxes will be the KOP transmissions, and that would also mean CIMs.
This is just speculation, but on the AndyMark new products page there's info on new toughbox accessories which i would imagine means toughboxes will be the KOP transmissions, and that would also mean CIMs.
Trannies can always be modified to work with other motors, I think the kilobytes made fisherprice motors work with the kop gearbox.
CraigHickman
30-11-2008, 02:18
No matter what the clues are, it just isn't worth the risk to buy transmissions or Kit specific parts before you actually have the kit. There are rumors, yes. However, let's look at the facts of what we KNOW about next years motors: NOTHING. Some teams may make the decision to go ahead and order transmissions before the season. That is their GAMBLE. My team will be waiting until we know what we need to do before we start spending on hardware. No matter how you look at it, locking yourself into a design before you actually have any of the facts isn't a smart move.
and andy mark also has a new planetary gearbox. is it an adapter for a new motor?
ATannahill
30-11-2008, 08:22
Why doesn't someone watch the sales of cims where ever First gets them and see if there is a spike, like lets say 4 times how many teams there are?
gorrilla
30-11-2008, 09:39
no picture andy?
maybe something is not happpening to the cims?
http://www.andymark.biz/am-0270.html
I sure hope nothing happens to the CIMs, its about the only thing my teams got.
billbo911
30-11-2008, 10:30
.... There are rumors, yes. However, let's look at the facts of what we KNOW about next years motors: NOTHING....
Just for the sake of splitting hairs... we do in fact know two things: 1) They will be 12vdc motors. 2) They will be brushed motors.
Other than that, you are correct, we know nothing.
How do I know the voltage and style?
We know the Jaguar and Victor speed controllers will be used this year. Both are designed for 12vdc brushed motors.
Will it be the CIM or the one shown on the flyer with the early shipped controllers, or something else??? I have no clue.
and andy mark also has a new planetary gearbox. is it an adapter for a new motor?
I held it in my hand and it was connected to a CIM.
One other clue, AM is now selling CIM's.
Look a few things you can count on:
AM knows what motor we will be getting.
No employee of AM will tell us a thing.
Andy is more than capable of showing us false clues.
Why doesn't someone watch the sales of cims where ever First gets them and see if there is a spike, like lets say 4 times how many teams there are?
They would already have been purchased.
colin340
30-11-2008, 12:29
so as I said before, the motors on the new control system flyer were put their cause , whoever made the flyer googled DC motor just grab that
Now having said that I would love to see. It would not be surprised at all, if first release of motor to take the place of the minibike motors that they got rid of last year
gorrilla
30-11-2008, 13:14
so as I said before, the motors on the new control system flyer were put their cause , whoever made the flyer googled DC motor just grab that
Now having said that I would love to see. It would not be surprised at all, if first release of motor to take the place of the minibike motors that they got rid of last year
then it would have to be more powerful
Lowfategg
30-11-2008, 13:25
Might they replace the CIM with a motor with the same face mount?
(and yes google "DC motor" in images and the photo on the layout is on the first page.)
so as I said before, the motors on the new control system flyer were put their cause , whoever made the flyer googled DC motor just grab that
Now having said that I would love to see. It would not be surprised at all, if first release of motor to take the place of the minibike motors that they got rid of last year
the minibike motors were just an one time thing. FP had surplus to get rid of and got rid of them by giving them to FIRST.
Who knows what interesting surplus we will get this year. What does Taigene, FP, Globe, Delphi, Keyang or other sponsor have lying around.
ironbears
30-11-2008, 14:00
NEVER buy a tranny early until the kickoff. You never know what FIRST throws at you. you can design all you want just dont build
Another thing to keep in mind in general is those 2 speed gearboxes themselves. We go some over the off seasion and are now playing around with them before kickoff to see how much them will take. A few of our mentors have told us very strongly to saty away from them because the way they $@#$@#$@#$@# is very rough. He is afraid the dog gear will break over time, if not very soon. Remember this sinerio 150 lbs. robot going 14 feet or more with gearbox forward and Joe the driver decided to shift gears and slam it into reverse all at the same time. That is ALOT of forward momentum to change with a dog gear that doen't slip fit. I will not down it untill I really see what it can handel but it is something to consider.
Matthew Forman
MorTorq 1515
Another thing to keep in mind in general is those 2 speed gearboxes themselves. We go some over the off seasion and are now playing around with them before kickoff to see how much them will take. A few of our mentors have told us very strongly to saty away from them because the way they $@#$@#$@#$@# is very rough. He is afraid the dog gear will break over time, if not very soon. Remember this sinerio 150 lbs. robot going 14 feet or more with gearbox forward and Joe the driver decided to shift gears and slam it into reverse all at the same time. That is ALOT of forward momentum to change with a dog gear that doen't slip fit. I will not down it untill I really see what it can handel but it is something to consider.
Matthew Forman
MorTorq 1515
We have used dog shifting AM gearboxes for 3 straight years of very hard driving and have never had a single failure.
Another thing to keep in mind in general is those 2 speed gearboxes themselves. We go some over the off seasion and are now playing around with them before kickoff to see how much them will take. A few of our mentors have told us very strongly to saty away from them because the way they $@#$@#$@#$@# is very rough. He is afraid the dog gear will break over time, if not very soon. Remember this sinerio 150 lbs. robot going 14 feet or more with gearbox forward and Joe the driver decided to shift gears and slam it into reverse all at the same time. That is ALOT of forward momentum to change with a dog gear that doen't slip fit. I will not down it untill I really see what it can handel but it is something to consider.
Matthew Forman
MorTorq 1515
I would be shocked if anyone managed to shear an AM dog or the teeth on an AM dog gear on a FIRST robot. I have never heard of it, and it has never happened on any of our robots (which use the exact same design as the AM dogs/gears).
This is one thing I absolutely wouldn't worry about, but it can't hurt to test it.
We have used dog shifting AM gearboxes for 3 straight years of very hard driving and have never had a single failure.
WE HAVE, broke the roll pin connecting the dog gear. Our fault, 60psi shifting, oops:yikes:
Thanks for the info guys I will make sure to take it back to the team. I think it should put alot of the guys fears to rest, but if we use them this year it would be our first time so I think at the very least we are going to play around with them to get a feel for how they work. Also I saw the post bellow me as I was typing this what psi should we run them at?
Matthew Forman
MorTorq 1515
Actually you will be able to use the KOP adapter plates to mount the transmissions to motors supplied in the kit, pictured here:
http://www.kellrobotics.org/my_images/1347121365_671967f14d.jpg
Yea, thanks a lot for the info. I guess my team will just wait until the kick off.
What am I suppose to see in the picture? O_o
EricVanWyk
30-11-2008, 16:18
http://www.designnews.com/photo/74944-A_40_ton_steam_engine_greets_visitors_in_the_home_ s_lobby_It_came_out_of_the_side_wheeler_towboat_Os car_and_is_being_converted_300x200.jpg
I have it on good authority that AndyMark will also be selling adaptor plates for some some surplus steam engines.
Elgin Clock
30-11-2008, 16:19
What am I suppose to see in the picture? O_o
Sarcasm, & a little bit of comedy... Get used to it. :yikes:
It helps you stay sane through the crazy 6 weeks & beyond.
ComradeNikolai
30-11-2008, 16:24
I have it on good authority that AndyMark will also be selling adaptor plates for some some surplus steam engines.
I think this is a hint that robot size limits will be increasing; we have to have some way of fitting those onto our robots.
Lowfategg
30-11-2008, 16:27
Maybe we will start using line shafting! :D
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/16/Line_shaft.jpg/400px-Line_shaft.jpg
Ha, lets get back on topic. :P
colin340
30-11-2008, 16:35
Actually you will be able to use the KOP adapter plates to mount the transmissions to motors supplied in the kit, pictured here:
http://www.kellrobotics.org/my_images/1347121365_671967f14d.jpg
nice with the hit and miss engine but i think were going the have to bump up that weight limit
ATannahill
30-11-2008, 16:43
Maybe we will start using line shafting! :D
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/16/Line_shaft.jpg/400px-Line_shaft.jpg
Ha, lets get back on topic. :P
I agree, keep all speculation to the Rumor Mill.
Lowfategg
30-11-2008, 17:08
I guess a better question would be, why would FIRST want to get rid of the CIM?
Also when they switched over to the CIM in ?2001? did they not offer the CIM and the drill motor for teams to use?
Also I saw the post bellow me as I was typing this what psi should we run them at?
We've used 20 PSI with success. Just start at around 20 or so, drive it around while shifting a ton of times. If you can shift like 50-100 times and it goes into gear with no trouble every time, you probably found a good pressure to work with. If it has trouble engaging, bump up the pressure about 5-10 PSI at a time till it engages properly.
I guess a better question would be, why would FIRST want to get rid of the CIM?
Also when they switched over to the CIM in ?2001? did they not offer the CIM and the drill motor for teams to use?
They switched in 2002. In 2002 the motor's output shaft was actually a pinion gear and you used a provided cluster gear in the initial reduction. In 2003 they switched to the standard 8mm shaft we have now.
They did offer the drill motors. They actually improved them to 1/2" drill motors from the 3/8" they were in 2002 and prior. 2004 saw the same drill motors as 2003, but that was the last year we had them.
To your last point-they probably wouldn't want to. It has been a good motor for them. But you never know what they will do. If someone decided to donate 10,000 motors, they'd obviously want to put them in the kit over something they'd have to be paying for otherwise.
Lowfategg
30-11-2008, 19:07
To your last point-they probably wouldn't want to. It has been a good motor for them. But you never know what they will do. If someone decided to donate 10,000 motors, they'd obviously want to put them in the kit over something they'd have to be paying for otherwise.
That would make sense. Wonder what Chiaphua will do this year.
if we don't get cims this year i will eat my shoes.
if anyone wants to quote me on this they can.
Daniel_LaFleur
01-12-2008, 17:59
if we don't get cims this year i will eat my shoes.
if anyone wants to quote me on this they can.
I can see Dave pulling the CIMs now ... just to get you to eat your shoes.
andymarks new gearbox is pictured on the website with a cim in it.
if we don't get cims this year i will eat my shoes.
if anyone wants to quote me on this they can.
I hear a good creole sauce works quite well on Converse All Stars, on a nice bed of dirty rice.... :)
-dave
.
andymarks new gearbox is pictured on the website with a cim in it.So? AndyMark isn't the GDC. It's designed for CIMs, AM sells CIMs now, but does that matter to the GDC? No. In fact, it might even provide an excuse to pull the CIMs.
gorrilla
01-12-2008, 20:22
if we don't get cims this year i will eat my shoes.
if anyone wants to quote me on this they can.
if we dont get cims, ill eat dave's shoes
So? AndyMark isn't the GDC. It's designed for CIMs, AM sells CIMs now, but does that matter to the GDC? No. In fact, it might even provide an excuse to pull the CIMs.
they game and kop has already been designed so it does not really matter what he does
they game and kop has already been designed so it does not really matter what he doesHow do you know? For all I know, they're sitting around and laughing at the crazy CDers who want a game hint because they don't have a game yet.
Realistically, I think the GDC has a rough idea of the game, probably a half-written manual if they're lucky, and about the same in the KOP (other than the control system).
How do you know? For all I know, they're sitting around and laughing at the crazy CDers who want a game hint because they don't have a game yet.
Realistically, I think the GDC has a rough idea of the game, probably a half-written manual if they're lucky, and about the same in the KOP (other than the control system).
Do you know what the logistics of packing and shipping 1600 kits are? If they're only half way through collecting the KOP then we're all in trouble.
Do you know what the logistics of packing and shipping 1600 kits are? If they're only half way through collecting the KOP then we're all in trouble.True. They probably have one or two items left to finish collecting. The game's a bit easier, they only need to get the "classified" info out to the remote field builders a couple weeks in advance and have one field ready... I bet they still haven't quite finished yet, though.
True. They probably have one or two items left to finish collecting. The game's a bit easier, they only need to get the "classified" info out to the remote field builders a couple weeks in advance and have one field ready... I bet they still haven't quite finished yet, though.
I imagine the lawyer proofing and tweaking go on until it's posted online.
I imagine the lawyer proofing and tweaking go on until it's posted online.Uh, they go on beyond then... (See the following: tethers (2002), loading zone (2005), 6' rule (2008, first couple of days).)
The game's a bit easier, they only need to get the "classified" info out to the remote field builders a couple weeks in advance and have one field ready... I bet they still haven't quite finished yet, though.It would also be helpful to have the animation prepared in advance.
Eugene Fang
02-12-2008, 03:27
It would also be helpful to have the animation prepared in advance.
Well, from the kickoffs, it sounds like the animation is done in the last few weeks during winter break. Or maybe that was just the rendering part.
sanddrag
02-12-2008, 04:03
FIRST is a busy bunch of folks. They also have to go out and find parks with bronze tortoise statues and obelisks and things to keep our minds spinning for a few weeks.
Although, for 2009, obelisks will have nothing to do with it. We'll need to learn how to handle the gridiron. ;)
vBulletin® v3.6.4, Copyright ©2000-2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.