Diffrent Transmission Advantages

[lenny8]

i wanted to start to see the differences between all gearboxes and maybe as a reference to all teams.....:rolleyes:

Banebots, Supershifters,Gen2,Dewalt,toughboxes Ect.

[gorrilla]

for reliability, AM gen1's havent let us down,(and that using the same ones for 3 years in a row):ahh:

[lenny8]

our team used Dewalts for 6 years ( 2003,2008 not used) and they were light decently fast and wasn't hard at all to build.

[AndyB]

Andymark Gearbox don't break. Period. At least I've never seen one break.

Banebots had some problems in the past but from what i've heard, the new P80's are pretty decent. I can't really comment on DeWalt.

[gorrilla]

bane bots are good too, the only reason we dont use them is because we want the high speed and high torque of the gen1's

[AdamHeard]

AndyMark, AndyMark, AndyMark. All the gearboxes have their uses and strong points, but none of these people "get it" like AndyMark does. Andy Baker and Mark Koors do have the "unfair advantage" of not only being in FIRST for years, but being innovaters in FIRST gearbox design/application.

The dewalt gearboxes are good in some applications, but they are cumbersome to work with/mount compared to the others (not terribly so, but decent mods have to be done to mount and and to provide a usable mounting shaft). If modified right, they can handle plenty of torque and seem to be plenty reliable. I have only personally used them in one prototype, so my experience is all based on research and anecdotes.

Next are the banebots gearboxes. They initially had some reliabilty issues, but have since apparently been improved. I'm still weary of them as their general quality across the line is clearly inferior to that of AndyMark ("good enough" some people say, but not "good enough" as AndyMark). This lesser quality isn't really made up elsewhere, as AndyMark sells products that do similar things for a similar price and usually lesser weight overall. I'd steer clear of them if you can, even if their reliability truly has been increased, their safety factor isn't as big as the safety factor in AndyMark's products.

Now, for AndyMark. In a drivetrain, I feel that unless you have just an excessive amount of resources, at least some parts should be AndyMark or you are just straight up wasting your team's time. Many great teams use his gearboxes stock to great results; 67, 330, 1114. Even 254/968 used some AndyMark gears in their drive this year.

My reasoning on why AndyMark is usually the superior option is simply based on their expertise and quality; their gearboxes usually are the right size, weight, durability, cost etc. for the application at hand. So, if you're using them appropriately, you'll know you got a great deal on a durable gearbox that won't kill your weight or size budget. They also have such a great range of products that between all of it, you have almost limitless applications. Last year on 973, friday before ship we decided we needed a new gearbox setup on our arm. With just one custom plate, and a whole bunch of AndyMark products, we quickly made a 167:1 three motor gearbox.

As for his specific drive gearboxes, the Gen2, Super Shifters and Toughboxes all have their pros and cons based on your drive setup. If you don't want to shift, the toughboxes are a great option for a dual CIM drive. The Pros and Cons aren't really about weight or strength, just mounting and gearing options.

If you do want to shift, choosing between a Gen 2 and Supershifter is usually based on the drive design.

The Gen 2 Mounts by holes on it's horizontal top and bottom face, and has sprockets inside of it. Teams commonly mount it on it's bottom between two wheels, and run chain out to them (and chain from one of those wheels to the last pair assuming a 6wd), which is also their final gear reduction (330 is a great example of this).

If you want a face mounting gearbox, one that mounts by bolts on it's vertical face, the SuperShifter is the option. It has many possible output shafts for nearly any setup. It also has a 3rd gear reduction so it can usually directly drive a wheel with no further reduction (and therefore is great for west coast drive applications). This stage can be removed and it can be used in a face mounted setup similar to what I just described with 330.

A really long post, but I say AndyMark all the way (and he's not even paying me....).

[lenny8]

that was a really bias post.......:D

[AdamHeard]

I disagree, aside from Andy and Mark being good people, I have no bias towards AndyMark.

When it comes down to it, for my team we're going to use the best products we can get, AndyMark just happens to be the place for that right now.

[lenny8]

it was a joke, i think most if not all teams consider AndyMark for there gearboxes/trannies but, for this tread my goal is for all people to post good things and bad things on gearboxes so it can be used as a easy search guide for all teams ( mostly rookie teams).

[MrForbes]

I think Adam covered the subject pretty well with one post.

[s_forbes]

It's also worth mentioning the great range of options you can get with AndyMark gearboxes. Lots of them give you different gearing choices; the Stackerboxes and planetaries can both have stages added to increase reductions, the Supershifter and gen 1 and 2 shifters have different speed ratios as well as final gearing ratios, and the Toughbox has several different gearing configurations (3.56, 5.95, 8.45, or 12.75 to one). AndyMark definitely has the most to offer as far as gearboxes are concerned.

For manipulators, Banebots offers some great gearboxes, too. The 42mm planetaries come in a lot of different ratios and they are easy to mount. There have been problems with the bigger planetaries in the past, but they can work alright as long as you don't put them through too much abuse.

Past traumatic experiences with the DeWalt transmissions make me not very fond of them, but other teams seem to have good results.

EDIT: also, I prefer the Gen 1 AM shifter over the Gen 2 shifter. Since it's symmetrical, you can flip the plates around to make it more compact. The only thing the Gen 2 has to offer over the Gen 1 is that it is able to use the big CIM motor, but that motor was illegal last year. (We don't know if it will still be illegal next year, but there's a good chance)

[gorrilla]

and theres always cutom too, when built right they can be just as good

[IndySam]

We have used complete AM drive trains for the last three years and we will do so again this year. Depending on the type of game we will use Gen 1, SS or the new Gem but if I were to recommend a trany to rookies it would have to be the Toughbox (assuming we get them in the kit.)

They are easy to use and reliable and will get the rookie teams rolling with a reliable solution right out of the box. Exactly what they need.

[R.C.]

AM is great for one, Adam covered it beautifully and the one problem we did have with Andymark's supershifter (this was totally our fault); was the fact that we broke the roll pin. I know I have posted this before but i wan't to warn other teams. DO NOT SHIFT AT 60 PSI. Shift at 20 psi. Also if you are looking for custom stuff, use Andy's gears and create your own custom plates and shifters. Using some of his STUFF is always a good decision, btw the quality is great.

[=Martin=Taylor=]

AM is great for one, Adam covered it beautifully and the one problem we did have with Andymark's supershifter (this was totally our fault); was the fact that we broke the roll pin. I know I have posted this before but i wan't to warn other teams. DO NOT SHIFT AT 60 PSI. Shift at 20 psi. Also if you are looking for custom stuff, use Andy's gears and create your own custom plates and shifters. Using some of his STUFF is always a good decision, btw the quality is great.

This also happened to us in the offseason (at a demo I think).

I'm rather suprised AM doesn't make any recomendation on their site about this. It would be a good bit of advice for teams to know.

[Raul]

AM is great for one, Adam covered it beautifully and the one problem we did have with Andymark's supershifter (this was totally our fault); was the fact that we broke the roll pin. I know I have posted this before but i wan't to warn other teams. DO NOT SHIFT AT 60 PSI. Shift at 20 psi. .....

This would not occur if you use a 1/2" stroke instead of a 1" stroke and adjust the location of the stroke so the roll pin does not bottom out against the ends of the slots. AM provided a sleeve to slide over the piston rod to shorten the stroke on a 1" stroke cylinder. Not sure if they still do.

When we used the Gen 1 shifter in 2005 and 2006, we had the pressure at 60 PSI and had no problems. But like I said, you have to have to be careful to adjust the location of the stroke.

[surferacf]

At the risk of sounding repetitive, AndyMark products are my first choice, any day. Mainly, it's their sheer simplicity and relative lack of moving parts. The county-wide competition we compete in during the fall mandates that we use DeWalt motors and transmissions, which can really burn you over if the clutch starts slipping. That's what happened to us this season, and rebuilding that sucker was a pain in my 'bot. (Plus, they're round. Mounting round things to flat surfaces securely is never a pleasant experience!)

[lenny8]

This off season we are using Banebots P80 motors ( the upgrated ones) and they seem to work pretty sweet. there small, easy to mount, they are not heavy i would suggest that rookie teams use them.

[Travis Covington]

This would not occur if you use a 1/2" stroke instead of a 1" stroke and adjust the location of the stroke so the roll pin does not bottom out against the ends of the slots. AM provided a sleeve to slide over the piston rod to shorten the stroke on a 1" stroke cylinder. Not sure if they still do.

When we used the Gen 1 shifter in 2005 and 2006, we had the pressure at 60 PSI and had no problems. But like I said, you have to have to be careful to adjust the location of the stroke.

Agreed. We've shifted at 60 psi for the last six years with no issues. So long as a stroke limiting spacer is in place and properly adjusted, you'll be fine.

**I should add that you need a stroke limiting spacer on even the 1/2" stroke pistons though.

[AdamHeard]

This off season we are using Banebots P80 motors ( the upgrated ones) and they seem to work pretty sweet. there small, easy to mount, they are not heavy i would suggest that rookie teams use them.

For both single and dual CIM drive setups, a Toughbox from AndyMark is lighter (as you can remove the outer casing for standoffs), cheaper, and definitely more reliable.

[lenny8]

For both single and dual CIM drive setups, a Toughbox from AndyMark is lighter (as you can remove the outer casing for standoffs), cheaper, and definitely more reliable.

lol. i know this i just dont want this tread to be all AndyMark thread. ( Even thou our team uses andy marks for our bots :D )

[Akash Rastogi]

lol. i know this i just dont want this tread to be all AndyMark thread. ( Even thou our team uses andy marks for our bots :D )

The thread isn't meant to be biased, if a product is better, its better. Giving false information isn't too helpful not that your info was false). I'd rather see honest information than something in support of a certain product.

[lenny8]

The thread isn't meant to be biased, if a product is better, its better. Giving false information isn't too helpful not that your info was false). I'd rather see honest information than something in support of a certain product.

I'm saying a product could be better but if a team is in need in lets say a certain gear ratio that is available from other products that's helpful information, instead of praising AndyMark Let Teams know of the Advantages of other Products also.

[Cory]

I'm saying a product could be better but if a team is in need in lets say a certain gear ratio that is available from other products that's helpful information, instead of praising AndyMark Let Teams know of the Advantages of other Products also.

As far as I'm concerned Banebots holds no advantage over any Andymark product.

Shoddy quality abounds on Banebots products. Maybe you can live with that based on the application. Even if Banebots and Andymark both offered products that would work I'd buy the Andymark even if it costs twice as much.

[lenny8]

As far as I'm concerned Banebots holds no advantage over any Andymark product.

Shoddy quality abounds on Banebots products. Maybe you can live with that based on the application. Even if Banebots and Andymark both offered products that would work I'd buy the Andymark even if it costs twice as much.

Banebots i think or over looked because the PAST problems that people had with them but now Benebots has improved there motor gears and if you want, go to teams that used banebots and ask them how it works so you have a better understading. i know we are useing banebots for one of our 3 CRio Beta test bots and I Dont have anything bad to say about them. some teams dont have the luxury of having alot of money and if the the toughboxes doubled in price i kow id use Banebots.

[Tom Line]

Dewalt: Very small and lightweight package, due to the cyclic geartrain. However, said geartrain incurrs higher efficiency losses that a simple spur-gear setup.

Rush managed to run two cims through a single Dewalt last year, as have several other teams. I believe they ended up not shifting them, however. They can comment on this if they see it.

Andymark is easier. There is no machining. If you want to make it lighter, you can. It is reasonably bulletproof. The only real drawback is that you need a pneumatic system to shift well, and that adds additional weight.

Banebots make some excellent transmisisons. But it's very seldom I see them used for a drive system.

Many teams Opt for the Andymark tranny, then machine out the gears, and remove the spacer plate and use 4 aluminum / delrin spacer cylinders instead. This lightens it up considerably without touching the durability and is an operation that anyone with a hand drill can perform.

In addition, unlike the dewalts, if you DON'T modify the supershifters components, you can use them year to year. Because the dewalts are not COTS components, people generally end up dropping them because of the hassle of machining them year to year.

That's why so many folks like Andymark.

A final note - if you only need a single cim for your application, then dewalt's are the way to go. The andymark's are built to handle 2 cims, and 2 cims worth or torque: they are more than twice as heavy as they need to be. In this case, the dewalt looks like the better choice.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Dewalt: Very small and lightweight package, due to the cyclic geartrain. However, said geartrain incurrs higher efficiency losses that a simple spur-gear setup.

Rush managed to run two cims through a single Dewalt last year, as have several other teams. I believe they ended up not shifting them, however. They can comment on this if they see it.

Andymark is easier. There is no machining. If you want to make it lighter, you can. It is reasonably bulletproof. The only real drawback is that you need a pneumatic system to shift well, and that adds additional weight.

Banebots make some excellent transmisisons. But it's very seldom I see them used for a drive system.

Many teams Opt for the Andymark tranny, then machine out the gears, and remove the spacer plate and use 4 aluminum / delrin spacer cylinders instead. This lightens it up considerably without touching the durability and is an operation that anyone with a hand drill can perform.

In addition, unlike the dewalts, if you DON'T modify the supershifters components, you can use them year to year. Because the dewalts are not COTS components, people generally end up dropping them because of the hassle of machining them year to year.

That's why so many folks like Andymark.

A final note - if you only need a single cim for your application, then dewalt's are the way to go. The andymark's are built to handle 2 cims, and 2 cims worth or torque: they are more than twice as heavy as they need to be. In this case, the dewalt looks like the better choice.

RUSH did indeed shift last year. Also, many may recall their drivetrain problems, these were NOT caused by the Dewalts, to my knowledge in the last 4 years using dewalts in their drive train they have never blown one. This includes the time when a servo wasn't shifting one all the way into gear and we had it kick into gear. (This was fixed as soon as we found it)


AndyMark's Toughboxes were what 397 used this year. Literally set it and forget it. Never once did we have to muck around with them. Our drive train was rock solid using them.

Also, custom gearboxes are nice if you absolutely need them. I have found most teams don't have the capability to improve upon off the shelf solutions. Some teams do, but for me, the only mods I will be doing on a gearbox anytime soon MIGHT be integrating it straight into the chassis side rails.

[Cory]

Banebots i think or over looked because the PAST problems that people had with them but now Benebots has improved there motor gears and if you want, go to teams that used banebots and ask them how it works so you have a better understading. i know we are useing banebots for one of our 3 CRio Beta test bots and I Dont have anything bad to say about them. some teams dont have the luxury of having alot of money and if the the toughboxes doubled in price i kow id use Banebots.

We have used Banebots products on our robot, so I'm familiar with their capabilities. This is what lead me to make that statement.

We successfully used one of their planetaries on our roller grabber. It worked because it was a low load situation, but after working with/modifying that transmission, you could tell it was super cheap. Poor fit/finish of the assembled parts. Poor quality screws (both the fact they are phillips head, and the actual screw quality itself). All sorts of stuff like that.

Do they work in the right situation? Sure? Would we use them again in that situation? Yes, but we'd prefer to use something else if we had a choice.

[daltore]

Our first year, team 2158 used Banebots. A while ago, I asked Richard, our mentor, how they worked, and he said, "Oh, they're great! The seize up and everything!" These were the old Banebots. Last year, we used their transmissions on all of the non-drive motors, and there were no problems except for the one that had a case we lathed that got some metal shavings left in it. It was soon fixed and worked fine.

For the drive train last year, we used 4-motor 6-wheel drive with 4 DeWalt transmissions. All I have to say is that if you have 6 regular members on your robotics team, don't use DeWalts. They were an unnecessary pain and easily took up 2 or 3 days of build time. We had to keep the drive train very low to the ground because of the 13' forklift we built on top of it, so all of the motors were squashed down onto a support bar with the transmissions screwed to the P-channel frame and hose clamped down for alignment. We have never gotten into 3rd gear. We refer to it as neutral. We originally settled on a shifting platform so we would have precision for lining up to the balls and high speed for doing laps, but it turned out we could line up plenty precisely in high gear, and we never used low gear. This year, that should be even less of a concern due to the increased linearity in response of the Jaguars over the Victors. Currently, we're having a big problem with the drive current, as we can drain a battery from just driving around for about 4 minutes, but the problem is impossible to diagnose because of the complication in mechanical parts. We know we had some magic wires (based on the magic of electrons flowing through dielectrics), but the transmissions are masking everything else.

That being said, I'd say for beginning teams, AndyMark is the simplest, most rugged design, with Banebots slightly behind them. The Banebots 12:1 single motor gearbox is the same weight as the AndyMark Toughbox, but more expensive. The Toughbox is also easily configurable for different gear ratios, whereas you need to buy a different Banebots transmission or remove one of the stages and cut the case down to get a different ratio. One thing I will give Banebots is the physical size of their gearboxes is smaller than the AM ones. Even pit against the new GEM500 (about the same size, no weight data), the Banebots wins out as the cheaper and easier to mount (the GEM is completely round with no mount plates other than the front and back), and there is no match in size for the dual-motor Banebots.

So overall, if you're a more or less new team without many resources, stick with the kit transmission. If you have a few more resources and you need shifting cheaply, use DeWalt with caution and care. And if you have enough resources, I encourage the use of custom transmissions, as they will give you everything that your team specifically needs. Our team toyed around with the idea of building an IVT or at least a CVT of some sort, but I sincerely doubt that will happen looking at our resources and funds. I'll probably peg for the Toughboxes this year, looking at all of our drive train trouble from this year and all of the possible culprits we have yet to narrow down. One thing I will say as a general rule, is one output sprocket is better than two, that's just twice the number of misaligned teeth you'll probably have in your drive train.

[Mike Schreiber]

RUSH did indeed shift last year. Also, many may recall their drivetrain problems, these were NOT caused by the Dewalts, to my knowledge in the last 4 years using dewalts in their drive train they have never blown one. This includes the time when a servo wasn't shifting one all the way into gear and we had it kick into gear. (This was fixed as soon as we found it)


I believe our problem was that we direct drove our wheels, at first we had problems with our drive shaft, then the pins sheered inside the Dewalt, and once we improved the pins the gears actually broke, we ended up solving the problem by Atlanta, but unfortunetly we ended up stuck out of gear in the semifinals and unable to do anything.

I'd say the Dewalts are effective for their size, but our application of them was not ideal, we have used them for a very long time (not sure the number) and never had a problem before last year.

[Kims Robot]

Do they work in the right situation? Sure? Would we use them again in that situation? Yes, but we'd prefer to use something else if we had a choice.

I would personally have to disagree, although I didnt work with the exact transmission you were talking about. We have used the banebots transmissions successfully in our last two robots for the drivetrain. We used the dual-CIM gearbox and transmission setup both times. When they were first introduced we never actually had problems, but did elect to change out the transmissions with the new replacements that were sent. But again, we never saw problems ourselves. This past year we had great success with them, and saw absolutely zero issues with our drivetrain. We like them a touch better because they are low to the chassis (AM are taller), and also just because we spent a lot of time getting familiar with them, and they worked with encoders that we knew and trusted. Switching sensors was not something we wanted to do last year, and proved to our benefit as our programmers already had experience. I dont have enough experience with the AM's to compare the two, but while everyone seems to remember the Banebots issues when they first came out, I know the AM's had the cracking issue too... all engineering really needs to be really beaten on by a lot of people before you find the true issues.

That said, in my experience both have exceptional customer service. We called up banebots to order our transmissions last year and they told us about all the improvements they made and asked us a good deal about how we used them. On top of that we were buying the encoders, and they were in the middle of trying to improve them as well as make them cheaper, and asked me a whole bunch of questions on what I needed out of them, what types of resolution I would need to see, how did we use them etc. I was very thrilled that they were very interested in what their customers wanted and were actively working to improve their products. I also happen to know that AM does the same. We bought their plastic omni wheels in our second year, and while they worked beautifully, they started cracking right at the end of our build season. Andy worked with us to figure out the problem and get us replacement parts, and we tested several different parts for him. We have bought the metal omnis since then and havent seen a single issue.

In my mind, look at what you are designing, see what space and weight limits you have, and buy the transmission that fits your design.

[Seth Mallory]

For years the students on 192 have designed and built their gear boxes. Some times one speed and some times two speed. Both types have their advantages and disadvantages. Most years the gear boxes are bullet proof and some years not. The lessons that they learn in the designing and building them are far reaching. They learn even more life lessons the years things go wrong and they struggle to correct in very limited time. Also with 40 or so team members they need the jobs it provides to help keep people busy. The last point is that it is the students robot and if they wanted to buy gear boxes they would but it is a matter of pride to design and build their own. We do for the students growth and not the robot.