FRC 2009 - Lunacy

[Michelle Celio]

I have not actually seen the game yet. But I can't wait until I get home.

However, I do know that Libby and I called it way back in 2007. (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=51854)

Disscus away.

[fordchrist675]

1GiantLeap4FRC that is the password

[cloud_254]

they really made this years game really interesting this year. the low friction floor is going to be a challenge.



RoXaS XIII

[lasereyes]

I think an omni-drive would be a great advantage to any team, despite the lower maneuverability due to the low friction surface.

[ali-of-oz-388]

What are the sizes of the cells?
Do they differ?

[Katy]

Alright, this post is pretty much one of my favourite things on CD every year so lets get it started.

I think this game is exactly what FIRST needs. I have not seen a game whose initial concept I have enjoyed this much since Aim High (which has been to date my favourite game design hands down).

This game shakes a few fundamental assumptions of veteran teams. I can not tell you how tired I am of cut and paste drive bases with a new claw every year. I don't consider this a failing of the teams, I mean "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." however, every time I see it I hold a slight bit of disappointment that the game design committee did not prevent this from happening. I understand how difficult a task it is to do that, but the difficulty of a task often bears no correlation to the importance of successfully completing it. :p

Oh well the important part is that strategy won't work anymore. Teams are welcome to dust off their old drive bases but it won't do them a ton of good.

I'm thrilled to see a new controller system. That's not to say I disliked the old one, but to say that a fundamental part of engineering is the fact that the technology you are using is always being changed out under you. Letting teams use the same parts over and over again provides a huge leg up to older teams who already know how to use them and provides a pretty unrealistic working environment. The amount of time an electrical engineer spends staring down board specs and docs is phenomenal. Learning to use a new piece of technology fast is a very important skill, and one sometimes FIRST doesn't really emphasize for a large number of really valid reasons. However, we have the opportunity to do it now. Don't gripe about it, it is really realistic. You'll know it is actually realistic when none of the parts work and the vendor is unresponsive in addressing your issues. Hopefully FIRST does not introduce us into that level of realism. :p

Bumpers? Well I did not like them last year but there is no question in my mind that they are absolutely appropriate this year for this variety of game.

This game is, hands down, one of the best designs I have ever seen for a well-funded rookie team to succeed in.

My only reservation with this game is the impact for low-budget teams and the wear of the field over the regional process. Driving practice this year is going to be HUGE. Teams are going to need a way to simulate this driving environment as quickly and cheaply as possible. To do it realistically they will need a good chunk of a field. To do it safely they'll need some serious guard rails. Anybody got a cost estimate of what that will be?

My second issue is that the field will probably take some damage. I have no idea how, I just have never been disappointed attempting to overestimate the ability of people to break important things. As the regionals wear on even small scuffs in the field may be game changing as they will provide random traction. That said, its plastic no? Do we have a liquid form of this stuff we can fill up scratches with or any other method to repair it?

Does anybody here have serious experience with the material the field is made of? I would really like to hear your insights.

[boehmz]

Anyone know the name of the material? I watched the video but can't remember the exact name. Also. when do you estimate a youtube video will be up?

[EricH]

I REALLY Like this game. I haven't read the rules yet (not with a team, so I'm going to let the traffic on the FIRST site die down and then get the unencrypted manual), but here's what I like:

fewer contact restrictions
a new game surface
many of the defensive strategies are now out the window
there is an extra challenge of attaching something to your robot for the entire game
Strategy is key. Your opponents aren't about to sit there and let you score, are they?That, and the odd scoring object (yeah, it's a ball. But it's an odd ball.)

This is going to be a great year.

[EricH]

I REALLY Like this game. I haven't read the rules yet (not with a team, so I'm going to let the traffic on the FIRST site die down and then get the unencrypted manual), but here's what I like:

fewer contact restrictions
a new game surface
many of the defensive strategies are now out the window
there is an extra challenge of attaching something to your robot for the entire game
Strategy is key. Your opponents aren't about to sit there and let you score, are they?That, and the odd scoring object (yeah, it's a ball. But it's an odd ball.)

This is going to be a great year.

[lasereyes]

If you're looking for videos of the game animation, you can find them on NASA's website:

http://robotics.arc.nasa.gov/events/2009_frcwebcasts.php#webcasts

[ExarKun666]

Just quickly wanted to run this by some people, some of my team feel that the camera is useless since you would only be able to really use it in autonomous, and I disagree. What are your thoughts on this? Would it give any advantages or disadvantages?

[Booksy]

I think an omni-drive would be a great advantage to any team, despite the lower maneuverability due to the low friction surface.

I think that would be a big disadvantage, seeing as how you wouldn't pass inspection.:)

[Marlfox]

I am wondering if you can have your robot load the balls by itself using a front end loader. Is this legal?

[Abra Cadabra IV]

The thing I really like about Lunacy is that it really goes outside the box. It's way different from past games, and is uniquely challenging. I am worried about mocking up the field... my team checked online and the stuff we found was really expensive and really heavy.

Also, some stuff that I found while diving through the manual:

<R11>
At the start of, and during, the MATCH the ROBOT shall fit within the dimensions listed below:
Maximum Width: 28 inches (71.12cm)
Maximum Depth: 38 inches (96.52cm)
Maximum Height: 60 inches (152.40cm)


If I'm reading that rule right, it means we're stuck within the starting dimensions for the entire game, not just the start. However, rules <R12> and <R16> seem to contradict it (there's no reason to have to rubber-band your bot into the starting dimensions if it's never allowed to leave them). Am I misreading things?

Because if I'm not, this is going to add a huge about of complexity to the design process.

[lingomaniac88]

Anyone know the name of the material?
It's in section 6.2.1 of the manual:
The REGOLITH is made of “Glasliner FRP(TM)” gel-coated, fiberglass-reinforced, polymer material.

[ExarKun666]

If I'm reading that rule right, it means we're stuck within the starting dimensions for the entire game, not just the start. However, rules <R12> and <R16> seem to contradict it (there's no reason to have to rubber-band your bot into the starting dimensions if it's never allowed to leave them). Am I misreading things?

Because if I'm not, this is going to add a huge about of complexity to the design process.

You are reading it right and R16 doesn't contradict

<R16> Once the MATCH has started, the ROBOT may assume a PLAYING CONFIGURATION that
is different from the STARTING CONFIGURATION. The ROBOT must be designed such
that the PLAYING CONFIGURATION of the ROBOT shall not exceed the dimensions
specified in Rule <R11>.

[Aren Siekmeier]

The general consensus of my team is that the restrictions on robot size during the game is to prevent guarding your own trailer with your robot. Does anyone know how long the trailer tongue is? Also, can balls be removed from trailers, because they are not scored until the end of the game?

[GaryVoshol]

I haven't found any rule that says descoring is illegal (except that if the goal tips, it is scored as however many were in it at the time it tipped). But I can't fathom how you're going to descore without going outside your 28x38x60 size.

[Protronie]

I really like what I've seen so far about this game.
Anyone can win it! Teams that have spent months designing wheels and fancy drive systems with the pushing power of a dozer... hahaha too bad your playing on fake ice with stock wheels. :eek:

Teams with whole machine shops that can build really awesome grippers and arms... oh well, them arms won't help this year. :ahh:

With no fix-it window and all the robot contact this game will have. The robots will have to build robust. This year the winners will be robots that are simple, and tough.

Good luck teams!
-p:cool:

[lukevanoort]

(there's no reason to have to rubber-band your bot into the starting dimensions if it's never allowed to leave them).

You could design your robot in such a manner that the motors need power to stay within the starting configuration, and rubber bands could keep the robot within the dimensions until power comes on. Why someone would design their robot so that they needed to do that is beyond me though.

[Enigma's puzzle]

Hey we have a question about the game pieces in the trailer. Are you or are you not allowed to take out the game pieces that are in your trailer or your alliance's trailers?

[Nawaid Ladak]

If you're looking for videos of the game animation, you can find them on NASA's website:

http://robotics.arc.nasa.gov/events/2009_frcwebcasts.php#webcasts

someone uploaded it to utube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pW0eCFPDoxc

[computerish]

Hey we have a question about the game pieces in the trailer. Are you or are you not allowed to take out the game pieces that are in your trailer or your alliance's trailers?

As far as I know, there is no rule against this, however you cannot extend past the size limits for the robot, so I cannot see a way to do this. If you find one, though, and you want to let me know... ;)

Also, I called the fake ice after the first hint!

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?p=780133&highlight=ice#post780133

[MGoelz]

Just quickly wanted to run this by some people, some of my team feel that the camera is useless since you would only be able to really use it in autonomous, and I disagree. What are your thoughts on this? Would it give any advantages or disadvantages?

Well, I do believe that it would be mostly only advantageous in autonomous, however, that advantage is a large one. With each team able to start with up to 7 moon rocks, an alliance has the ability of scoring up to 42 points before the teleoperated period. That would give a huge advantage to the game. Of course, the likelihood of scoring all 21 is slim, but the point is the same. The camera is important because autonomous is important. You can't dead reckon to a moving target to score. Just because you don't need it for the majority of the match doesn't mean you should forget about it. I think you need the camera.

That's my opinion. :)

[cbudrecki]

someone uploaded it to utube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pW0eCFPDoxc

you may want to read this thread... (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60713)

[meastman]

Has anyone found any rules that prevent covering the trailer or removing game pieces from trailers. If you could cover the trailer there wouldn't really be any point to the game.

[computerish]

Has anyone found any rules that prevent covering the trailer or removing game pieces from trailers. If you could cover the trailer there wouldn't really be any point to the game.

Yes, you can't extend beyond the robot dimension requirements at any point. That basically prevents a cover.

[Koko Ed]

Those wheels are funky. It's gonna take a real clever team to be very skilled at this game. You also are going to be very reliant on your partners being able to perform (if they can't move or are very slow guess who's getting scored on). You got to hit and run to thrive at this game. I suspect like hockey this is gonna be a fast and furious game.

[thefro526]

I like the game personally.

It's finally leveled out the playing field from veterans to rookies for the most part. And also it's leveled out the economics aswell. By changing the surface on which we play and the wheels that we're allowed to use First has essentially forced many of us teams to rethink our drive trains. Most teams have a "traditional" drive train they like to work with but now most conventional drive systems made for carpet would be too fast, illegal, or too powerful for the Game's playing surface.

I think that this will also be a Driver's game. A good driver/operator combo will be essential and both positions (Driver more so than Operator) will require a substantial amount of skill.

The only issue I have with the game is that autonomous does not seem to be straight forward nor is it really mentioned in the rule book. The way I understand it is that the scoring's still the same.

In all I like it though, It should be a fun game to play.

[pacoliketaco]

I think that even if you can get your robot to track another's goal, you still have to have a way to determine which side of the opposing robot you are facing. You may be locked onto their goal, but their robot might be facing yours, and you might just end up dumping all of your cells onto their robot, instead of into the goal. Even when you are behind the other robot, if you are both moving at similar speeds, it is going to be hard to keep tracking and following them. I also haven't put much thought into shooting, but it seems like it would be hard to do.

also, i was trying to find out where we can buy the "regolith", and found Glasteel's site. http://www.awci.org/buyersguide/files/Glasteel_MPC2007.pdf one of these might be worth looking into, but they dont have very many distributors or manufacturers. and it seems 100% necessary to have a lot of time to practice driving this year.

[commodoredl]

To add on to the questions about no rules against descoring goals, here's my hypothetical example:
Say you have a starting configuration of a 12" long by 28" wide robot hooked up to the trailer. Wouldn't it then be possible to extend a device into the trailer and lift moon rocks out without leaving the maximum length limits?

[meastman]

To add on to the questions about no rules against descoring goals, here's my hypothetical example:
Say you have a starting configuration of a 12" long by 28" wide robot hooked up to the trailer. Wouldn't it then be possible to extend a device into the trailer and lift moon rocks out without leaving the maximum length limits?

I was thinking a similar thing. Extending something to prevent scores from occurring in your trailer seems to be legal as long as your bot is still within the dimensions. Has anyone found any rules to refute this?

[surferacf]

I think this game is pretty nifty, what about you?
In a word, Yes. It help to equalize some of the experience differences between rookies like my team and the folks who have been doing this since '92.

Best approach might be to ... think "out of the box".

Unfortunately, physically thinking outside the box is prohibited by <R16>:D

[amos229]

Those wheels are funky. It's gonna take a real clever team to be very skilled at this game. You also are going to be very reliant on your partners being able to perform (if they can't move or are very slow guess who's getting scored on). You got to hit and run to thrive at this game. I suspect like hockey this is gonna be a fast and furious game.

Similar strategy to 05 with the tetras. I wish I was still a highschool driver, I really like this game. Way to go FIRST

[oddjob]

I like the low friction surface and the new design challenges that presents. However, the human scorers will be very important and after listening to Dean talk about the dubious merits of bouncing a basketball, I'd rather the game was less dependent on human ball throwing skills. We'll have to wait and see how this comes together in a 3 on 3 match, but I suspect the real stars of the competition will be students that can score 9 out of 10 times. (some unfortunate similarities to 2006 Aim High there).

[professorX]

I really like what I've seen so far about this game.
Anyone can win it! Teams that have spent months designing wheels and fancy drive systems with the pushing power of a dozer... hahaha too bad your playing on fake ice with stock wheels. :eek:

Teams with whole machine shops that can build really awesome grippers and arms... oh well, them arms won't help this year. :ahh:

With no fix-it window and all the robot contact this game will have. The robots will have to build robust. This year the winners will be robots that are simple, and tough.

Good luck teams!
-p:cool:

I'm sorry but can someone explain what is the fix-it window?

[bobwrit]

I'm sorry but can someone explain what is the fix-it window?

I second this question.

[GaryVoshol]

We don't have fix-it windows this year.

In past years' rules, teams were limited on how much work they could do on parts after ship date. They were allowed a "window" of time each week in which work could be done. Other than that, tools were to be put down.

[Ian Curtis]

I like the low friction surface and the new design challenges that presents. However, the human scorers will be very important and after listening to Dean talk about the dubious merits of bouncing a basketball, I'd rather the game was less dependent on human ball throwing skills. We'll have to wait and see how this comes together in a 3 on 3 match, but I suspect the real stars of the competition will be students that can score 9 out of 10 times. (some unfortunate similarities to 2006 Aim High there).

I really enjoy the Human Player dynamic. In 2004's "FIRST Frenzy: Raising the Bar" (a game that is/was considered pretty good, and my personal favorite), the robots had to retrieve balls for a human player who had to get them into the goal basketball style. It was just a great dynamic. And remember, while the HPs will introduce most of the balls to the field, if you build an A+ robot, it won't really matter. Not to mention, I think seeing students make 9/10 will be exceedingly rare, if it occurs at all.

What is the similarity to Aim High precisely? I remember Aim High teams who built A+ robots. Sure, some of them where human loaded, but without the robot, these teams would not have been a powerhouse.

[Mike8519]

There are no fix-it windows. You have unlimited worktime now from ship to regional. You can work on and develop your "Withheld Allowance" parts all you want provided all the spares and such brought to the event are under 40lbs

Also rule G14 adds an interesting twist on teams that may run up the score.

[Jonathan Norris]

Human players are not going to be nearly as big of a part of the game as they initially look. Going to be a fun, exciting game! (and I haven't said that on kickoff since 06...).

good drivers are going to be really key.

[ExarKun666]

Human players will still have a big role, but I think the robot design, a key element for it will be to pick up the balls off the ground, because of all the missed shots.

[ehcualp]

I think this year's game is great. It completely levels out the playing field for all teams. New controller systems, have to use stock wheels, drive train has to be rethought of. I started a rookie team this year, with me being the only veteran on the team, and I think we have a great chance of making it to the finals. As much as any other team participating. In the past years veterans always had the advantage, but not anymore! :P

[NorviewsVeteran]

I was thinking a similar thing. Extending something to prevent scores from occurring in your trailer seems to be legal as long as your bot is still within the dimensions. Has anyone found any rules to refute this?

If you can make sure the first contact between the robot and trailer is bumper to bumper, you might have it in the can.

[Herodotus]

I like the surface, but to be honest I don't particularly like the rest of the game dynamics. I don't like that it seems the human players can be big scorers (note, I say "seems" and "can" not "will be".) I can't see TOO much variety in the drive trains, or even in what you use to manipulate the game piece.

I will, of course, be proven wrong. I also will, of course, still make the best of it and enjoy myself anyways.

[Katy]

I've thought a lot more about this game.

I still really love this game design.

I am steadily becoming less thrilled about the game implementation.

The orbit balls are probably one of the best examples of the difference between the design theory of why they were chosen and how they'll work out already. Orbit balls fascinating. They have a semi-spherical shape but are very different than any other balls we have played with. They are simple to understand but hard to design for. Good luck building rollers! Sounds about perfect right?

That said, they have huge problems as game pieces. It is unfortunate that they serve as such a source of frustration to the colorblind community, but their durability is downright terrible. We've had fragile game pieces before but we have never had a game where we anticipate so many robots going out of control that we pad the whole field up like a loony bin. To combine one of the most fragile game pieces we have ever had with a crash-heavy game seems foolish.

Additionally these things seem to not hold up particularly well under fairly normal abuse, if the threads here and the number of orbit balls which are broken in stores before you even try to buy them are any indication.

Orbit balls aren't easy to repair. We have had parts which aren't easy to repair before but normally those are not things we anticipate breaking. Realistically we are looking at having to buy a lot of orbit balls to compensate for a lot of little piles of broken plastic.

I'm shocked to not be hearing more people talk about the corridors of carpet along the long sides of the field. Those seem pretty important.

I'm pretty sure that, barring major rules updates about robot interactions with the trailer, that defense is going to be something people work a lot harder on than offense. This may lead to some very low-scoring games where rules like G14 get applied where a lot of people never thought they would. I also wouldn't be shocked if that whole "collusion" debate from Stack Attack came back into style...and man...I can't tell you how little I missed that.

[JoeXIII'007]

FIRST: this is sheer lunacy... are you serious?

But really, this game looks awesome!

Good Luck everyone and have fun!

PS: It's sort of odd when your first word of this year's game comes from SlashDot... (http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09%2F01%2F03%2F2354209&from=rss)

[Enigma's puzzle]

Search: FIRST Robotics Lunacy, There are a lot of articles on it i was surprised, maybe we are beginning to reach the media?