View Full Version : broken robot DOOMS an alliance
If a robot does not start moving during autonomous, it remains in the launchpad. The opponent payload specialist has 20 moon rocks ready to easily toss into the trailer. The toss is less than 3 feet to a fixed target.:(
If all the opponent's robots move, they are harder to hit. Simply keep moving, and let the score accumulate, but you will have an extreme difficulty overcoming the 60-point offset!!
Jerry
If a robot does not start moving during autonomous, it remains in the launchpad. The opponent payload specialist has 20 moon rocks ready to easily toss into the trailer. The toss is less than 3 feet to a fixed target.:(
If all the opponent's robots move, they are harder to hit. Simply keep moving, and let the score accumulate, but you will have an extreme difficulty overcoming the 60-point offset!!
Jerry
Look at it as an incentive to help out your alliance partners and make sure they're working before the match.
flyingcrayons
04-01-2009, 09:09
yes but remember, if the oppsoing alliance does this, and they happen to double or triple your alliance's score, they will be penalized the next match... with a super cell or empty cell being taken away from you (at least that's how i interpreted that rule)...
If a robot does not start moving during autonomous, it remains in the launchpad. The opponent payload specialist has 20 moon rocks ready to easily toss into the trailer. The toss is less than 3 feet to a fixed target.:(
If all the opponent's robots move, they are harder to hit. Simply keep moving, and let the score accumulate, but you will have an extreme difficulty overcoming the 60-point offset!!
Jerry
Unlike past years, adding an extremely basic "Drive straight for 15 seconds" autonomous is easy to do in both the programming environments.
PLUS, I'm sure there will be many "templates" provided by teams to do just this. (I'm going to post one)
Noone wants to be on an alliance this year with an NO-AUTO robot, so let's not let it happen. Last year it was a goal, this year it should be a MUST :)
yes but remember, if the oppsoing alliance does this, and they happen to double or triple your alliance's score, they will be penalized the next match... with a super cell or empty cell being taken away from you (at least that's how i interpreted that rule)...
I doubt that many players will "slow down" scoring to avoid that potential handicap :)
Daniel_LaFleur
04-01-2009, 10:39
Unlike past years, adding an extremely basic "Drive straight for 15 seconds" autonomous is easy to do in both the programming environments.
PLUS, I'm sure there will be many "templates" provided by teams to do just this. (I'm going to post one)
Noone wants to be on an alliance this year with an NO-AUTO robot, so let's not let it happen. Last year it was a goal, this year it should be a MUST :)
Agreed. Another "no robot left behind" program is a must.
Also, How about a simple spin in place program? Would probably be more difficult to hit. JMHO
Sunshine
04-01-2009, 10:53
Is it possible to spin in place while being attached to a trailer with 2 straight wheels? I realize that the conditions are "slippery" but are they that "slippery"
rogerlsmith
04-01-2009, 11:00
I was just thinking that a trailer full of moon rocks might not be as bad as having a super cell tossed in at the end. Do you think a trailer will hold 20 moon rocks?
Daniel_LaFleur
04-01-2009, 11:10
Is it possible to spin in place while being attached to a trailer with 2 straight wheels? I realize that the conditions are "slippery" but are they that "slippery"
If the CoF is truely .06 then the robot will have ~9 lbs of thrust (assuming 150 lbs of robot) and the trailer will have 1.2 lbs of traction and thus can be spun in place.
This all assumes you get off the carpeted area.
nathanww
04-01-2009, 11:37
The issue that my team was talking about was not so much autonomous mode, but if the robot breaks or gets disabled at some point in the match. We're thinking of making an "emergency" mode, which could be used if the robot is basically uncontrollable which would just randomly pulse the drive motors so we wouldn't be quite an easy target
thefro526
04-01-2009, 12:27
I was also thinking about this because of how many robots tend to not have an autonomous or consistent autonomous in the early regionals (wk 1-2). My theory was that even the most basic of drive straight for 2 seconds and drive backwards for 2 seconds and so on and so forth would be a decent defense. I know my team would be happy to help a team make a basic evasion program like that.
On the case of a broken robot, it's just a part of the game. Perhaps it was designed this way to promote helping of other teams.
i was thinking of this 2, personally im afraid of being on an alliance where your team mate throws a chain or loses batter, somway that renders it completely immobile.
then what, what keeps the oppent from dumping all the moon rocks and super cells in them? does hitting the disable button prevent this somehow:confused:
The number in each will remain the same, even if some are dumped. (so if for example you build a mechanism that would take balls out of the trailer, that would not subtract from the number in it.) As for if yours gets disabled, I'm not sure, but there may be an amendment to the rules that would make a disabled robot "off-limits" (perhaps the lights on the trailer will blink if it's disabled in this case, to make it easier to tell)
acdcfan259
04-01-2009, 17:02
With the slippery surface I'm sure you'd be able to push them so they're in a less accessible spot.
Fastnate
04-01-2009, 17:12
If a robot does not start moving during autonomous, it remains in the launchpad. The opponent payload specialist has 20 moon rocks ready to easily toss into the trailer. The toss is less than 3 feet to a fixed target.:(
If all the opponent's robots move, they are harder to hit. Simply keep moving, and let the score accumulate, but you will have an extreme difficulty overcoming the 60-point offset!!
Jerry
I would be extremely surprised to see a team with no autonomous capabilities this year. Also I dont think the trailer would even fit much over 16 moon rocks (even 16 is a huge score)
I think there is more worry for a broken robot in the middle of a round than for a robot without any auto program.
Creator Mat
04-01-2009, 17:13
I doubt that many players will "slow down" scoring to avoid that potential handicap :) i beleive that the penalty of a loss of a supercell but i believe that if a team is good enough that (especcaly in a final allaince) the loss of a super cell is no big deal. Because yes a potentiol 60 pt swing is huge but remember first gave the field 120 regular moon rocks so getting a score by itself could be pretty hard, then a team to even get their super cells they would have to transport a empty cell across the field (another feat that might be harder than you think), and then the team would have to score with the super cell where realisticly they would have at most 4 shots with them. so in my opion a go for the kill don't let up mentality might serve you better.
Dantvman27
04-01-2009, 17:28
One thing you sorta have to factor in too is the use of the tongs to pick up the moonrocks, that should slow down a human player from dumping all of their rocks during autonomous period
but yes if you robot kicks the bucket in the middle of the field early in a match, ur alliance is going to need to bail you out
artdutra04
04-01-2009, 17:55
... Do you think a trailer will hold 20 moon rocks?... Also I dont think the trailer would even fit much over 16 moon rocks (even 16 is a huge score) ...You'd be amazed at how many balls actually fit into one of the goals:
http://www.team228.org/gallery/97/slideshow/2009-first-kickoff-event_3d4e9-229f0.jpg (http://www.team228.org/media/pictures/view/4528)
http://www.team228.org/gallery/97/slideshow/2009-first-kickoff-event_53727-c3e0e.jpg (http://www.team228.org/media/pictures/view/4500)
From the looks of things it's around 20 or so, but here's one other thing to remember:
At the kickoff (at least the one in Denver, CO) the trailer had PVC pipe or something close to that instead of pool noodles. Since most likely the pool noodles will have a much greater radius, it could limit the total number of balls that could fit in the trailer or hook onto one of the noodles.
From the looks of things it's around 20 or so, but here's one other thing to remember:
At the kickoff (at least the one in Denver, CO) the trailer had PVC pipe or something close to that instead of pool noodles. Since most likely the pool noodles will have a much greater radius, it could limit the total number of balls that could fit in the trailer or hook onto one of the noodles.
the vertical pipes on the trailer are "1-5/16 inch OD plastic conduit pipes"
The number in each will remain the same, even if some are dumped. (so if for example you build a mechanism that would take balls out of the trailer, that would not subtract from the number in it.) Where do you find this? I only find it when a trailer tips.
And there are no lights on the trailer.
Is it possible to spin in place while being attached to a trailer with 2 straight wheels? I realize that the conditions are "slippery" but are they that "slippery"
i thought the wheels on the trailer where omni wheels...
Cooley744
05-01-2009, 01:09
if your alliance partner breaks down and is a sitting duck, ask them if they dont mind being knocked completely over lol. if their trailer is on its side and the opening is up against a wall, that will stop the other alliance completely haha!:cool:
NoahTheBoa
05-01-2009, 01:13
if your alliance partner breaks down and is a sitting duck, ask them if they dont mind being knocked completely over lol. if their trailer is on its side and the opening is up against a wall, that will stop the other alliance completely haha!:cool:
Except that intentionally tipping a trailer will get you a penalty. <G32>
i thought the wheels on the trailer where omni wheels...
They aren't; they're rover wheels. Section 6.4.
Except that intentionally tipping a trailer will get you a penalty. <G32>
Yeeeah, I expect to see FIRST amending the rules via an update to say that a DISABLED (ie. E-Stopped) robot's trailer is off-limits.
But, that brings in its own problems... If you have a really good scoring/herding/whatever robot that you think can win on its own without the detriment of the other 2 moving goals to be scored against with, then the other 2 robots could simply e-stop, and reduce the opponent's ability to score. Not really GP, but as much as everyone likes to say that FIRST is not about the robots, or the competition, there exists a set of people among us that will take advantage of any opportunity afforded them that might aid them in winning. Sad, but true.
Yeeeah, I expect to see FIRST amending the rules via an update to say that a DISABLED (ie. E-Stopped) robot's trailer is off-limits.
But, that brings in its own problems... If you have a really good scoring/herding/whatever robot that you think can win on its own without the detriment of the other 2 moving goals to be scored against with, then the other 2 robots could simply e-stop, and reduce the opponent's ability to score. Not really GP, but as much as everyone likes to say that FIRST is not about the robots, or the competition, there exists a set of people among us that will take advantage of any opportunity afforded them that might aid them in winning. Sad, but true.
My guess is that they don't change this rule. Otherwise, what is to stop an alliance from getting ahead and disabling all of their robots? Again, not GP, but it is in the realm of possibility.
True, I hadn't thought about that strategy. It means that your drivetrain had better be robust, and not break. (This exact point is what really scares me, I really dont want to be a sitting duck.)
Nawaid Ladak
05-01-2009, 16:15
yes but remember, if the oppsoing alliance does this, and they happen to double or triple your alliance's score, they will be penalized the next match... with a super cell or empty cell being taken away from you (at least that's how i interpreted that rule)...
free points? who can pass that up, week one might be a high scoring week because of this issue, i honestly dont think a Payload Specialist would really care if he dumped 20 balls into a goal and won the match 86-20, but he would care if he only dumped 6 and lost 36-38
Yeeeah, I expect to see FIRST amending the rules via an update to say that a DISABLED (ie. E-Stopped) robot's trailer is off-limits.
But, that brings in its own problems... If you have a really good scoring/herding/whatever robot that you think can win on its own without the detriment of the other 2 moving goals to be scored against with, then the other 2 robots could simply e-stop, and reduce the opponent's ability to score. Not really GP, but as much as everyone likes to say that FIRST is not about the robots, or the competition, there exists a set of people among us that will take advantage of any opportunity afforded them that might aid them in winning. Sad, but true.
There are teams like that, they will do ANYTHING to win, remember, some of us are lawyers and some are true engineers
Elgin Clock
05-01-2009, 16:26
Yeeeah, I expect to see FIRST amending the rules via an update to say that a DISABLED (ie. E-Stopped) robot's trailer is off-limits.
Highly unlikely. Unless they don't enforce it, but rather don't count the points put in that goal.
Then if that were the case, I would expect to be told by the Referees that a goal is not in play, & if I wasn't told that during a match, & put a lot of balls in that one as opposed to the other 2, and thuse, they did not count, I would be more than a little annoyed.
I want to see it be that a Dead robot's goal still counts for game play.
The other teams can still move it out of the way, & that just makes the acquistion of the Super Cells by the team with 2 functioning bots to counteract the 20 moon rocks the other team placed in the dead robot's goal that much more important!
I just though of something . .
What happens when a robot doesn't show up to a match due to being rendered inoperable and under repair?
Is an empty goal just placed in the starting area?
I just though of something . .
What happens when a robot doesn't show up to a match due to being rendered inoperable and under repair?
Is an empty goal just placed in the starting area?Nobody really knows right now, unless the GDC has come to a conclusion and is waiting for an update time to release it.
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