Does <R08> prohibit above-bumper extension?

[BethMo]

A burning question coming up in a lot of strategy discussion: is it legal to have a small robot with a device that extends past its own bumpers (while still remaining within the size limit)?

(In various places mechanisms have been discussed for descoring balls from your own/partners trailers, for dumping balls into opponent's trailers, or for making your own trailer harder to score on. All of them would be affected by this ruling.)

We found something that might be meant to prohibit this... but it's not phrased directly as a rule, rather as a consequence of other rules that don't actually prohibit it. It's in the front text of <R08> describing the bumpers.

If implemented as intended, a ROBOT that is driven into a vertical wall in any normal PLAYING CONFIGURATION will always have the BUMPER be the first thing to contact the wall.

Hopefully this has already been brought up to the rule committee and we'll have a fast official clarification.

[Larry Lewis]

I would tend to think that what they are going for is to have the robots not break the vertical plane of the bumpers. Although I have not formal backing for this other than what is stated in R08. I guess I would lean towards the more conservative side and say that you may want to not overhang the bumpers. Until an official answer is put out through the Q&A.

[Josh Goodman]

I would agree with Larry. I think all pieces of the robot must not move beyond the bumper zone (plane). As you said in your quote above:

If implemented as intended, a ROBOT that is driven into a vertical wall in any normal PLAYING CONFIGURATION will always have the BUMPER be the first thing to contact the wall.

where PLAYING CONFIGURATION - The physical configuration and orientation of the ROBOT while playing the game (i.e. after the MATCH has started, and the ROBOT has deployed mechanisms, moved away from the starting location, and/or interacted with the field, GAME PIECES, or other ROBOTS). This configuration is dynamic, and may change multiple times during the course of a single MATCH.


The keyword here is ANY normal playing configuration. Unless normal has a specific meaning, I would just assume that means while your on the field, you cannot extend outside the bumper zone. This differs from last years rules where it stated the bumper zone could not be changed, but you extend past the zone.

If I am wrong, PLEASE let me know!!! :yikes: It'd be a great help!:p

[dmlawrence]

This interpretation is contradicted by rule R04:

Protrusions from the ROBOT shall not pose hazards to GAME PIECES, team members or event staff. If the ROBOT includes protrusions that form the “leading edge” of the ROBOT as it drives, and are less than one square inch in surface area, it will invite detailed inspection.

[GregW11]

you'd think it'd be any protrusions, and not ones that are just "less than one square inch in surface area" since you could have some pretty lethal "longer than one square inch in surface area" things on the robot... (unintentionally, and more for robots than humans of course)

[Josh Goodman]

I think it's basically explained that you can't cross the bumper plane according to Dave's post here (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71171&page=3). It really makes sense, its for the protection of the robots and adds an extra challenge.

[darkChozo]

Well, just because the protrusions don't extend beyond the bumper zone doesn't mean they can't hit anything. If the robot were to tip a little in a high-speed collision, it could conceivably hit something with a sharp protrusion. And I'm guessing that the GDC wants to avoid accidentally impaling the robots you run into.

[Andy L]

Could anyone shed some light on this topic? A vague post from Dave on a different subject isn't much, and I could see this being a big design constraint.

[Matthew2c4u]

This has been a concern of ours as well, But saying that it will invite detailed inspection may mean that its not Specfically prohibited, since R08 is unclear, and it may be inspected case by case.
Anyway Further pushes us away from dump truck :) But with all the slipping and sliding whos doing that anyway.

[Petey]

We're going to ask this in Q+A tomorrow, because this is a huge deal if you can't extend beyond the plane of your bumpers.

e: One thought:

In another thread, someone posted this design:

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/7093/firstblocking4ha6.jpg

Where the robot clearly extends beyond the bumpers. However, in a normal playing configuration, that part of the robot would never hit a wall, because the trailer is protecting the rear!

[Alex_Miller]

Well, now that we have the update we can say that that would be illegal because it blocks it.

[Russ Beavis]

Please don't build a robot as shown in that CAD model. I would really hate for inspectors to give you the bad news that you'd need to completely rework it for compliance. Even if the Trailer Hitch was located on the Bumper Perimeter, if the trailer were to swing "out" of the robot, the trailer tongue would definitely hit one of the robot's bumpers before making bumper-to-bumper contact. This is clearly in violation of the rules in Rev B of Section 8.

Russ

[smurfgirl]

Please don't build a robot as shown in that CAD model. I would really hate for inspectors to give you the bad news that you'd need to completely rework it for compliance. Even if the Trailer Hitch was located on the Bumper Perimeter, if the trailer were to swing "out" of the robot, the trailer tongue would definitely hit one of the robot's bumpers before making bumper-to-bumper contact. This is clearly in violation of the rules in Rev B of Section 8.

Russ

And to add to this, even though the red extension on the robot wouldn't hit the wall, it is illegal for extending past the plane of the bumper zone, as per update 1:

2) The Game Design Committee would like to elaborate on the restriction about robot
size during match play. Specifically, it’s important to read and understand the
statement in Rule <R08>, referring to the bumpers:

“…If implemented as intended, a ROBOT that is driven into a
vertical wall in any normal PLAYING CONFIGURATION will
always have the BUMPER be the first thing to contact the wall.”

This rule restricts any arms, mechanisms, hoods, etc from extending beyond the
BUMPER PERIMETER. Among other things, some associated intentions of this rule
are to prevent teams from having manipulators which extend outside the BUMPER
PERIMETER, and to prevent teams from being able to de-score game pieces or
block/disrupt trailers. While the current belief is that rule changes or additions are not
needed to prevent such robot behavior, if teams are pursue this type of strategy by
employing a loophole, or by other means, an amendment to the rules will be made.

(The bolded and underlined sentence should make this reasonably clear.) Fortunately, clarification of this came in update #1, so you've still got 40 days left to tweak your design. (: