View Full Version : Green and pink painted robot (a good defence?)
Sean Raia
05-01-2009, 17:33
Well lets assume a robot on the opposite alliance has made great use of the camera and has a game winning auto aim and fire algorithm.
Would painting the robot green and pink provide some sort of defensive advantage?
Note R02 C
Items specifically PROHIBITED from use on the ROBOT include:
C.
Any devices or decorations specifically intended to jam or interfere with the remote sensing capabilities (including vision systems, acoustic range finders, sonars, infra-red proximity detectors, etc.) of another robot (i.e. changing ROBOT color to confuse opponent’s vision system)
Sean Raia
05-01-2009, 17:40
sorry to post twice, but i think this would get more responses here.
Well lets assume a robot on the opposite alliance has made great use of the camera and has a game winning auto aim and fire algorithm.
Would painting the robot green and pink provide some sort of defensive advantage? would it confuse the camera?
Alex Dinsmoor
05-01-2009, 17:43
I thought of the exact same strategy, but the high cost ruled it out for me :P
Well it all depends on how the robot was programmed. There is a chance that it may interfere with the aiming system, but at the same time they may have angled their cameras not to look at targets as low as your robot.
And don't forget, it may interfere with your alliance also...
Sean Raia
05-01-2009, 17:43
It does not mention colors. the devices listed give unfair technical disturbance or blind out the camera completely. The green and pink paint is not going to interfere with the camera, it will simply confuse it.
I responded to your original and so I will repost here
See R02 part C
Items specifically PROHIBITED from use on the ROBOT include:
C.
Any devices or decorations specifically intended to jam or interfere with the remote sensing capabilities (including vision systems, acoustic range finders, sonars, infra-red proximity detectors, etc.) of another robot (i.e. changing ROBOT color to confuse opponent’s vision system)
Would it? Possibly/probably. In that case, <R02> comes into effect and you get penalized under <S04>.
<R02>
ROBOT parts shall not be made from hazardous materials, be unsafe, or cause an unsafe condition. Items specifically PROHIBITED from use on the ROBOT include:
C.
Any devices or decorations specifically intended to jam or interfere with the remote sensing capabilities (including vision systems, acoustic range finders, sonars, infra-red proximity detctors, etc.) of another robot (i.e. changing ROBOT color to confuse opponent’s vision system)
<S04> Permitted ROBOTS - Any ROBOT used during a MATCH must be in compliance with all Robot Rules (as defined in Chapter 8). Any ROBOT in violation of a Robot Rule will automatically be assigned a PENALTY and may receive a Yellow Card, depending on the severity of the infraction.
The last example i.e. changing the robots color is somewhat clear. In past years this has always been interpreted to mean you can not mount target lights or paint your robot in such a way so as to confuse your opponents vision systems.
Sean Raia
05-01-2009, 17:47
it may interfere with your alliance also...
Yea, there goes my idea, UNLESS you just had a random pole sticking up (not exceeding max height) that was the same collor pattern as your alliances, YEA THAT MIGHT WORK!
Edit: im going to clarify this with Q&A because this seems to be a legit defence strategy and im worried that they wouldnt allow it
Jeff Rodriguez
05-01-2009, 17:48
It does not mention colors. the devices listed give unfair technical disturbance or blind out the camera completely. The green and pink paint is not going to interfere with the camera, it will simply confuse it.
I would consider a painted stick a device. Granted, its a very simple device, but it has a purpose and therefore is a device.
My opinion though.
Blue_Mist
05-01-2009, 17:48
I would say that paint is a decoration, not to mention the specific example of color-changing robots. And confusing a camera would certainly interfere with its accuracy, which was probably the whole point of using a camera.
Fred Sayre
05-01-2009, 17:48
Says right there in the text that was quoted
changing ROBOT color to confuse opponent’s vision system
Sean Raia
05-01-2009, 17:52
Oh too bad. it would have been awsome.
Al Skierkiewicz
05-01-2009, 17:54
Eric et al,
A robot employing such colorful marking(s) should not make it through inspection. However, (S04) would cover any team that reintroduced such color or which made it through inspection without notice.
EricVanWyk
05-01-2009, 17:56
I wonder how this will impact the traditional Pink and Green teams. Moe has been green for years, do they have to mute their color this year?
neoshaakti
05-01-2009, 17:57
what about a robot that has traditionally been painted pink, or at least contained some pink as design on their robot (don;t know them personally, but I've heard of the Pink Team)?
Alex Dinsmoor
05-01-2009, 18:00
I wonder how this will impact the traditional Pink and Green teams. Moe has been green for years, do they have to mute their color this year?
No, because the vision systems (well at least from what I discussed with the mentors on my team) are going to be looking at the color pattern of the post, not just say the color green (365) or pink (233).
It would be interesting if they played on the same field though :)
As for MOE and Pink, I'm sure that something will be thought of. For example, MOE's other color is black, I believe.
Al, I do realize that it wouldn't make it through inspection. I also realize that occasionally there are inspectors who don't check as well as they should.
Alex Dinsmoor
05-01-2009, 18:07
Al, I do realize that it wouldn't make it through inspection. I also realize that occasionally there are inspectors who don't check as well as they should.
Hopefully no teams really go that extra mile and actually paint their robot these colors, they may get pass inspection a few times, but the first time there is a noticeable affect to a robots aiming, they will make a rule against it :)
Hopefully no teams really go that extra mile and actually paint their robot these colors, they may get pass inspection a few times, but the first time there is a noticeable affect to a robots aiming, they will make a rule against it :)
There already is, as I posted earlier.
this poses a problem for our team because out team colors are both pink and green. the material given out in the kit for the top of the trailer is the same color and material that we have been using for years on our bumpers. does this mean that we are going to have to change our bumpers to a different color??
Alex Dinsmoor
05-01-2009, 18:19
There already is, as I posted earlier.
What I meant was make it more specific to tailor to actual painting of the robot. As it is right now it only mentions the changing of a robots color, and nothing about robots of that color initially.
this poses a problem for our team because out team colors are both pink and green. the material given out in the kit for the top of the trailer is the same color and material that we have been using for years on our bumpers. does this mean that we are going to have to change our bumpers to a different color??
Hmm, you should probably ask in the Q&A about this. To play it safe I would suggest just making your bumpers one solid color this year. That way no one can accuse you of interfering with their robot.
Joe Ross
05-01-2009, 18:19
A properly designed vision system would reject an all green or all pink robot (both colors aren't together). They would also reject a green and pink robot, because the colors wouldn't be at the right height.
I think very few teams will have a vision system that does both of those things, but it shouldn't be possible to mess up the best teams through such means.
When the vision system first came out MOE tested this many, many times and found no problem with the camera attracting to our bot's or anything else that it wasn't programed to, now that was a few years ago so I can't speak for this years cameras.
mrmummert
05-01-2009, 18:39
Hi...
In 2005 (our rookie year) our robot was painted Yellow (as its been every year since) We did'nt know until we got to the regional that it might be a problem. Luckly it was'nt and we were allowed to compete in our colors.
Vision colors in 2005 were Yellow (if i remember right for the corner goals)
and Green for the Vision tetras. We had one of the better autonomous camera
programs and accually almost scored on the center goal in autonomous.
screw_in_my_arm
05-01-2009, 19:02
My school's rookie FRC year was last years overdrive, so I just want to clear this up. Can we, or can we not paint our robot ( frame, protective cover...etc ) ?
My school's rookie FRC year was last years overdrive, so I just want to clear this up. Can we, or can we not paint our robot ( frame, protective cover...etc ) ?
Paint (or other coloring) is fine. However, it is a decoration (Alex--there's your answer; it's a decoration that may or may not be intended to interfere) and subject to rules about decorations.
notaPINKtruck
05-01-2009, 19:21
Well I guess we'll find out if one of them has an effect... :)
Al Skierkiewicz
06-01-2009, 07:35
Let's face some reality here, as Erik and Joe pointed out earlier, a correctly designed vision system should not look for colors at the level of a robot, the colors are higher than that. The robot max vertical dimension is 60 inches while the trailer colors extend from 59" to 83". Considering the look angle of the supplied camera lens, at a distance the camera would see the full robot. But close up in shooting range, the vision system should only be looking above the 59" height. Each robot is considered individually when inspected. Team colors would not automatically produce concern. However, a checkboard pattern of green and pink in the shades used on the goal would be a cause for concern.
As for MOE and Pink, I'm sure that something will be thought of. For example, MOE's other color is black, I believe.
Al, I do realize that it wouldn't make it through inspection. I also realize that occasionally there are inspectors who don't check as well as they should.
MOE will plan to check this year's bot/paint scheme with the camera to ensure no issues. Our other color is black, so we should be able to work out our bot asthetics so that teams tracking the trailers do not have a problem.
I will say that the green fabric for the targets matches our green bumper material very closely!
Historically, the ROBOT markings to DELIBERATELY confuse other ROBOTs vision systems rule has not been a problem for MOE(365) and Pink (233). Good vision code should be able to reject blobs that arent the right shape anyway, and a green (MOE) or pink robot would be entirely the wrong shape. Also, I think since these two teams have had their robots colored those colors for years that UNLESS it was actively causing a problem on the field, an inspector wouldn't give them any flack for it. 233 and 365 are both seasoned veteran teams, however, that as Dean and Woodie say GET FIRST. I can assure you that 233/365 would not be using their coloring in an attempt to gain an advantage. After all, that anodizing adds weight.
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