Team Update #1

[ntroup]

Posted 1/6/09

Team Update 1 (http://usfirst.org/uploadedFiles/Team_Update_1.pdf)

-Nate

[Laaba 80]

You beat my post by 2 minutes.

Joey

[smurfgirl]

Thanks Nate! Lots of answers in here. (:

[swamp_child]

So when is the real game going to be announced?

[flyingcrayons]

this makes it very luck based and human players are vital!

[Wetzel]

So when is the real game going to be announced?
Between week 1 and week 2 events.

Wetzel

[Mr_I]

this makes it very luck based and human players are vital!

Please see the Team 811 motto (below)

[Bobbitay]

this makes it very luck based and human players are vital!

Naw! While it may seem like that at face value; in my opinion, it promotes innovation and more thought. It's silly that most everyone has the same idea (as far as shielding, etc, go) yet think that they are all coming up with some great new idea. Just my two cents. Thanks for the update!

[Laaba 80]

Naw! While it may seem like that at face value; in my opinion, it promotes innovation and more thought. It's silly that most everyone has the same idea (as far as shielding, etc, go) yet think that they are all coming up with some great new idea. Just my two cents. Thanks for the update!

I agree with you completely.

[Andrew Schuetze]

I think what is troublesome to many veterans is that FIRST has always allowed some form of defense. Even last year when the object was to race around with trackballs and hurdle. Bonus points were earned for putting it back up at the end of the match. If played under this year's rules, once a trackball is up on the over-head it can't be knocked off.

So we have robot's towing trailers avoiding shots from human players on a surface that doesn't lend itself to control and rapid acceleration or changes in direction. Robots are limited to offense only. The only defense is backing yourself into a corner.
IMHO a lack of balance in game design.:(

[billbo911]

....IMHO a lack of balance in game design.:(

I just don't see it that way. To me, the rules and game design are just "design parameters" that need to be met. Are they a challenge? You bet!!

Please name me anything that is a real challenge that isn't just as rewarding when you meet that challenge.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

I think what is troublesome to many veterans is that FIRST has always allowed some form of defense. Even last year when the object was to race around with trackballs and hurdle. Bonus points were earned for putting it back up at the end of the match. If played under this year's rules, once a trackball is up on the over-head it can't be knocked off.

So we have robot's towing trailers avoiding shots from human players on a surface that doesn't lend itself to control and rapid acceleration or changes in direction. Robots are limited to offense only. The only defense is backing yourself into a corner.
IMHO a lack of balance in game design.:(

From the land of hard defense here in New England, I can tell you that there will be defense ... and lots of it :D

[nahstobor]

...The only defense is backing yourself into a corner.
IMHO a lack of balance in game design.:(

Are you sure about that? I would think again.

[SWIM]

It sucks that you can't de-score balls.

One idea that came up on our team was making a forklift type appendage that can reach in between the posts on the trailer and remove all the balls from an ally's trailer.

[cbudrecki]

I'm surprised this update didn't touch on G14!

[SWIM]

I'm surprised this update didn't touch on G14!They're leaving it in to act like the AWP in counterstrike.

A part of the gameplay so horribly imbalanced, everyone forgets about the other imbalances and just whines about that.

[sdcantrell56]

It didn't touch on R06 either which I was hoping for.

[flyingcrayons]

Please see the Team 811 motto (below)

Yes, that is a good motto for this year

Naw! While it may seem like that at face value; in my opinion, it promotes innovation and more thought. It's silly that most everyone has the same idea (as far as shielding, etc, go) yet think that they are all coming up with some great new idea. Just my two cents. Thanks for the update!

I agree... while it does increase the amount of thinking, it severly limits design ideas... this should be a fun game, but imo it will feature some wild crazy robots no one wou;d dream of... and some that are very similar to others... idk

[Rich Kressly]

I think what is troublesome to many veterans is that FIRST has always allowed some form of defense. Even last year when the object was to race around with trackballs and hurdle. Bonus points were earned for putting it back up at the end of the match. If played under this year's rules, once a trackball is up on the over-head it can't be knocked off.

So we have robot's towing trailers avoiding shots from human players on a surface that doesn't lend itself to control and rapid acceleration or changes in direction. Robots are limited to offense only. The only defense is backing yourself into a corner.
IMHO a lack of balance in game design.:(

No worries. Last I checked the Mars Rovers don't play any defense either and that's pretty cool stuff ;)

[Andrew Schuetze]

No worries. Last I checked the Mars Rovers don't play any defense either and that's pretty cool stuff ;)

I think rovers on Mars are way cool but you won't get a crowd of enthusiastic participants cheering as they trudge 150 meters a day. Some part of FIRST is the excitement of the event. Why else do they call it a game. Why do they have a game.
The game is not everything and the real purpose is to get the inolvement of students and mentors but if there is a lack of excitement in the game then lack of involvement.

Not the end of the world, not that I can't deal with the rules as they are, but I can still wish for more defensive options which imho will add excitement to the game.

[Tetraman]

I think what is troublesome to many veterans is that FIRST has always allowed some form of defense. Even last year when the object was to race around with trackballs and hurdle. Bonus points were earned for putting it back up at the end of the match. If played under this year's rules, once a trackball is up on the over-head it can't be knocked off.

So we have robot's towing trailers avoiding shots from human players on a surface that doesn't lend itself to control and rapid acceleration or changes in direction. Robots are limited to offense only. The only defense is backing yourself into a corner.
IMHO a lack of balance in game design.:(

I kinda agree with you on this, but I don't think you can compare the scoring and tactics of two games that have little alike.

Imagine if we could put a plate over our trailers - Every team with half a brain would have to do that or else they will lose. Defense in this game is movement...Yea sure it's not super exciting to see 6 robots play "avoid" while every 15 seconds some robot makes a big score, but the last thing we need is to turn Lunacy into Zone Zeal where as long as you control all the goals and prevent any opponent scoring you win.

[GaryVoshol]

So I guess the Trailer Hitch has to be designed to be easily removeable, huh?

[lingomaniac88]

It sucks that you can't de-score balls.
It may suck, but I think that de-scoring game pieces isn't really the idea of the game. Besides, putting game pieces into your opponents' trailers would be more efficient, both timewise and pointwise, than removing game pieces from your alliance's trailers.

[Tristan Lall]

So I guess the Trailer Hitch has to be designed to be easily removeable, huh?I was hoping that FIRST was going to give the inspectors crowbars and reciprocating saws, in order to speed up the sizing of robots whose trailer hitches stick out too far.

Realistically, only if your robot is nearly 28 in wide, and has the trailer hitch on the 38 in side, will it have trouble fitting in the existing sizing boxes. Given that the materials required for the hitch are standardized, a standard weight could be deducted from robots weighed with a hitch. (I suppose that to use a standard weight like this, it would be prudent to specifically disallow modifications to the hitch design that would permit a small robot weight advantage to be gained by lightening it. On the other hand, it's the system weight that matters anyway, so it would only be a technical violation of the rules, rather than a meaningful one.)

[Madison]

I didn't receive an e-mail blast about Team Update 1. Did anyone?

Rookies don't know to look for this stuff, so remember to get the word out to your local rookie teams about the changes this update implements.

[Stuart]

as a programmer Im wondering how Auto mode is going to work this year . . if robots cant place balls in bins? very confuseing

[Nate Smith]

as a programmer Im wondering how Auto mode is going to work this year . . if robots cant place balls in bins? very confuseing
Robots can still put balls in, as I am reading the rules, but you just have to get more creative as far as how to do it...

[rees2001]

I’ve thought this one through & I think this is the first true competition where offense is the best strategy and pretty much the only strategy. (The only other one I can think of was 2001 & there is no point to playing defense on the only alliance on the field, yours.) I know some defense can be played & people will get creative but, I like when people can’t rely on un-doing what someone has worked to do. I won’t say that that defense isn’t a viable strategy for FIRST but don’t be afraid to break out from what you know & innovate.

As for inspiration & the growth of FIRST, it will survive. I couldn’t stand 2001 because it was dry but FIRST has done pretty well since then. They can’t all be Aim High & First Frenzy.

[Stuart]

I don't know, the whole way that FIRST does team updates . . kinda feels like a waiter brings out your food, puts it in front of you. then just as you get your forks out, hurries to change your order because the chef wanted to make soup not steak . . kinda unprofessional. In this regard is where I really have to say BEST manages better than FIRST.

but ohh well. on to how to place balls while being at least 10 inches away from where they need to be.

Edit: to elaborate on BEST's team updates method. they have a Q&A much like FIRST where rules are clarified. Past that there are no updates to the official rules or additional rules. Once the game is out that is the game that will be played. If BEST had intended for teams not to steal they would ( and have in past games) simply said teams cannot remove game items from other teams scoring areas.

[Kit Gerhart]

For now, it looks like the "fan suck down" idea is still legal, if we can make it work. Given that we have these two extra CIM motors that won't be needed for the drive train, I think it is still worth investigating.

[nahstobor]

For now, it looks like the "fan suck down" idea is still legal, if we can make it work. Given that we have these two extra CIM motors that won't be needed for the drive train, I think it is still worth investigating.

Sorry 233, http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/

"3) Don’t spend time attempting to develop a vacuum car system like Jim Hall’s sucker Chaparral car. Even a slight suction over the base of the robot will damage the field surface and you don’t want to do that (See the 2009 FIRST Robotics Competition Manual section 7 rules G-29 & G-30)"

We were thinking the same thing, to bad we can't do it.

[Kit Gerhart]

Sorry 233, http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/

"3) Don’t spend time attempting to develop a vacuum car system like Jim Hall’s sucker Chaparral car. Even a slight suction over the base of the robot will damage the field surface and you don’t want to do that (See the 2009 FIRST Robotics Competition Manual section 7 rules G-29 & G-30)"

We were thinking the same thing, to bad we can't do it.
Thank's very much for clueing me in. We can now apply full effort to other things, like picking up and shooting balls, rather than looking for the ideal leaf blower/shop vac/ whatever, and coming up with a configuration for the "skirt" for the base of the robot. It seemed like a fun, and worthwhile concept to pursue for this game. Oh well.

[Swampdude]

I'm surprised nobody seems upset about the descoring issue. I've wasted 2 unpaid days heading in that direction.. Where do I send the bill? I don't see how this game is affected much by the robots. The human players will have the trailers half full by the end of autonomous. So now we're trying to fight over a few supercells and a few moonrocks the whole match? not to mention if we want a decent drive system, we're left with barely any room (within the bumper perimiter) to pick up balls. It seems like they want a tie every match regardless of effort. Sorry but I'm really dissapointed with this one...

[Ian Curtis]

I'm surprised nobody seems upset about the descoring issue. I've wasted 2 unpaid days heading in that direction.. Where do I send the bill? I don't see how this game is affected much by the robots. The human players will have the trailers half full by the end of autonomous. So now we're trying to fight over a few supercells and a few moonrocks the whole match? not to mention if we want a decent drive system, we're left with barely any room (within the bumper perimiter) to pick up balls. It seems like they want a tie every match regardless of effort. Sorry but I'm really dissapointed with this one...

Have you built a trailer and tried to get orbit balls in? It's hard. Really freakin' hard. I'm not much of a basketball player, but I couldn't get them in when the goal was 10 feet away, yet alone moving all over the place! Up until this point I think we've really really over-estimated the human players ability to score. You've got to hit an area marginally larger than the ball itself. Sure, if a robot sits still in autonomous, there most of the 20 will make it in. If a robot dies near the other alliances Human Player, most of the 20 will go in. Barring that, the humans will be really really ineffective.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

I'm surprised nobody seems upset about the descoring issue. I've wasted 2 unpaid days heading in that direction.. Where do I send the bill? I don't see how this game is affected much by the robots. The human players will have the trailers half full by the end of autonomous. So now we're trying to fight over a few supercells and a few moonrocks the whole match? not to mention if we want a decent drive system, we're left with barely any room (within the bumper perimiter) to pick up balls. It seems like they want a tie every match regardless of effort. Sorry but I'm really dissapointed with this one...

You truely believe that your human player will be able to get 10 shots off in 15 seconds and get them all in over a 6 1/2 foot tall barrier and on a moving target? Consistantly?

I think you seriously have overestimated your human players capabilities ... unless his name is Larry Bird.

[Billfred]

I'm surprised nobody seems upset about the descoring issue. I've wasted 2 unpaid days heading in that direction.. Where do I send the bill? I don't see how this game is affected much by the robots. The human players will have the trailers half full by the end of autonomous. So now we're trying to fight over a few supercells and a few moonrocks the whole match? not to mention if we want a decent drive system, we're left with barely any room (within the bumper perimiter) to pick up balls. It seems like they want a tie every match regardless of effort. Sorry but I'm really dissapointed with this one...I've explored the descoring topic a bit on my own, and I haven't really found a really good way even before this prohibition...though remember, marketing major.

No intelligent team will go through an event without at least an attempt at a dumb run-the-heck-away-from-here routine. I don't know whether we'll see much robot-on-robot scoring in autonomous, but I could picture a fun round of jockeying for position--imagine a couple of robots double-teaming an opponent back into the corner, near-ideal conditions to let the human players pick a few off. (Or the same idea could bolster a partner's attempt to score a few balls autonomously.)

I fully expect things to remain quite interesting.

[OScubed]

For now, it looks like the "fan suck down" idea is still legal, if we can make it work. Given that we have these two extra CIM motors that won't be needed for the drive train, I think it is still worth investigating.

Um. No. They specifically ruled out Chapparell style sucking devices.

[bduddy]

Um. No. They specifically ruled out Chapparell style sucking devices.Um, no, they didn't. Jim, who may be on the GDC but is not the rulebook, stated that they are illegal because they damage the floor. I honestly don't see where he's coming from-perhaps skirts too low might scratch the floor, or something. But if you don't damage the floor, there is nothing illegal about those systems.

[EricH]

Um, no, they didn't. Jim, who may be on the GDC but is not the rulebook, stated that they are illegal because they damage the floor. I honestly don't see where he's coming from-perhaps skirts too low might scratch the floor, or something. But if you don't damage the floor, there is nothing illegal about those systems.
I think you mean Bill.

Incidentally, the GDC is the Supreme Court of FRC right now. (They are also the Legislature and the executive branch.) So if one of them says something about a rule, you might want to listen up. If Bill posts something, I'm willing to bet that it's also the opinion of the rest of the GDC.

[eNyoron]

Man, the fact that you have to stay within the vertical projection of the bumpers really inhibits the ability to create an effective dumper... you have to get the balls going about 4 inches from the dumping mechanism in order for them to actually land in the trailer. I actually had a really long discussion with a mentor about using a rotating hatch, similar to the mail deposits where you pull down on the handle insert the letter and gravity causes the letter to fall into the box when closed again, but in reverse. The idea was that when retracted, contact would indeed stay in the bumper zone, but it would extend beyond that for just a second to unload balls, and now that idea's moot. </rant>.

[Kit Gerhart]

Um, no, they didn't. Jim, who may be on the GDC but is not the rulebook, stated that they are illegal because they damage the floor. I honestly don't see where he's coming from-perhaps skirts too low might scratch the floor, or something. But if you don't damage the floor, there is nothing illegal about those systems.
I've about decided that it will be illegal, because if used effectively, it would lift the thin, slick stuff from the floor. I'll be following this pretty closely, though.

[Tazlikesrobots]

Just to clear my mind.... The robot can still pick up balls as long as the ball picker remains inside the starting configuation.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Um, no, they didn't. Jim, who may be on the GDC but is not the rulebook, stated that they are illegal because they damage the floor. I honestly don't see where he's coming from-perhaps skirts too low might scratch the floor, or something. But if you don't damage the floor, there is nothing illegal about those systems.

Pulling a 1 PSI vacuum over a 20"x20" section will produce 400LBS of force pulling on all surfaces (Ideal gas laws). As such, while your robot may see a 400 LB gain in nominal downward force, you will also create a 400LB nominal upward force on the flooring which is only 0.090" thick plastic. This, most likely, will cause the floor to bow or even break.

We, too, were considering pulling a vacuum below the robot to increase our traction. We decided to wait on this strategy until we knew whether or not the floor could take such abuse ... apparently it cannot :(

[bduddy]

I've about decided that it will be illegal, because if used effectively, it would lift the thin, slick stuff from the floor. I'll be following this pretty closely, though.Maybe, I hadn't really thought of that. I'm not really sure how the Glasliner is placed on the carpet-I can't imagine they just drop it on and leave it at that, because it would take far less than a fan to dislodge it then. Does anyone know how they're going to make the playing surface?

[EricH]

Maybe, I hadn't really thought of that. I'm not really sure how the Glasliner is placed on the carpet-I can't imagine they just drop it on and leave it at that, because it would take far less than a fan to dislodge it then. Does anyone know how they're going to make the playing surface?I don't know yet. I've heard that they don't know either. Next up for the GDC field guys: How on earth do we attach the Regolith?

I'm sure something will come out and (hopefully) be released to teams eventually.

[ahecht]

Industrial Velcro has worked well in the past for anchoring stuff to the carpet. The anchor on the Rack n Roll rack, for example, was simply a steel plate with Velcro on the bottom that engaged with the carpet. McMaster sells a velcro "hook" side that can withstand 3psi in pull-apart pressure and 23psi in shear.

[kbaker159]

so they have disallowed suction, what about a blower with an intake from the sides? a blower out the top with intake on the sides, rather than the bottom. I think you could still get a decent amount of downward force just from upward airflow (though I haven't done any math to back this up, just an idea)

[Donut]

I'm glad my team's current design is not affected by these clarifications, but I do think this is a little restrictive. I'm glad for the goal tending rulings (because covering goals with plates would have led every finals to a 0-0 four match tie) but preventing any extension beyond the bumper zone forces teams to either dump or shoot balls to score (of course, this is probably the intent of the rule).

And don't think defense is dead because of Update #1. If I don't see AT LEAST one pinball style disruption robot I will be severely disappointed in teams this year. Being fast and unpredictable is almost as effective as sticking a sheet of cardboard over a goal (and a heck of alot more exciting for those of us that don't watch the paint-drying channel).

[JOhnch181]

I don't know yet. I've heard that they don't know either. Next up for the GDC field guys: How on earth do we attach the Regolith?

At the Kickoff here in washington the guy Kevin Ross (who is incharge of Firstwa) said that the drawings that he recieved which came from first did not mention how the material was secured)

[eugenebrooks]

If your coefficient of friction is .05, you would get 1/20 of your
down force from the upward directed blower turned into traction
at the wheels. Is there a better direction for the blower, if it
is allowed?

Eugene

so they have disallowed suction, what about a blower with an intake from the sides? a blower out the top with intake on the sides, rather than the bottom. I think you could still get a decent amount of downward force just from upward airflow (though I haven't done any math to back this up, just an idea)

[MrHero]

The floor material is not exactly thin, flexible, or breakable. It's about 35 lbs. per 4x8 sheet (the competitions will use 50'x8" rolls, ***very*** heavy), and definitely would not lift with any amount of suction on a 28x38 robot. I think their rule clarification was specifically targeted at the potential traction benefit, and not associated with any sort of potential damage to the floor.

To think that avoiding floor damage would make your robot legal is probably incredibly optimistic - trust me--nothing will damage this floor...

[Aren_Hill]

The floor material is hardly thin, flexible, or breakable.

I found the material spec'd to be thin flexible and breakable, while the sheets are heavy the material is not that robust, as we've already had a corner break off that got hit sideways from a drifting bot. This material would also not take kindly to roll form as it would most likely fracture.

just my experience with this FRP

plus suction is commonly used in industry to manipulate large sheets of material.
I envision if it was allowed a team with enough development could produce significant downforce.

also Bill says dont do this

3) Don’t spend time attempting to develop a vacuum car system like Jim Hall’s sucker Chaparral car. Even a slight suction over the base of the robot will damage the field surface and you don’t want to do that (See the 2009 FIRST Robotics Competition Manual

straight from bills blog

[MrHero]

Fair response, except that I'm unclear how a corner could be caught if the field is taped/adhered sufficiently. I transported by hand a full field worth of this material for the Wisconsin kickoff field demo, and I was shocked at how thick and heavy this stuff is. If the only part of the robot contacting the surface is the the "slick" wheels, as the rules dictate, It's unclear how we could possibly damage the field, unless your vacuum was able to pull free any tape holding the pieces together..

[Aren_Hill]

Fair response, except that I'm unclear how a corner could be caught if the field is taped/adhered sufficiently..

the pieces were just laying on the floor, i was just using that as a reference to overall durability.

If the sheets are simply attached at the edges i can see a vacuum capable of pulling up the middle and flexing the sheet, it all really depends on how FIRST decides to do the final assembly.

[MrHero]

Perhaps we saw different materials.. With the stuff I worked with at the WI kickoff, I'm not sure 2000 lb would lift the middle of a 4'x8' sheet..

Maybe someone can comment on the "officially specified" material and how heavy/light/thick/thin/flexible/brittle it is??

[M. Mellott]

The change to <R18> is the one that irked me...

"The Trailer Hitch must be located on the BUMPER PERIMETER of the ROBOT structure..."

Our Design Team was looking at mounting the Hitch further in the base of the robot, pulling the trailer tight against the rear bumpers of the robot, making the trailer a little more controllable (if you can really say that with this game). Now, THAT'S out the window!

Well, as long as the GDC gets rid of <G14> and they don't limit our creativity anything further, I can at least get them to stop being annoyed at the whole thing...me too, for that matter.

[JohnBoucher]

When I walked on the field in NH at kickoff, you could feel it move. The is a disconnect between the frp and what ever is below it. This is with a lot of people standing on it.

[GaryVoshol]

Man, the fact that you have to stay within the vertical projection of the bumpers really inhibits the ability to create an effective dumper... My thoughts exactly. It looks like they want everyone to be a shooter. Given the difficulties with that in 2006, and the more random squishy nature of the Orbit balls, I was hoping to see some very effective dumper designs. It would be hard enough to work within the 28x38 restrictions; you'd have to make your base slightly smaller so you could have a 4-6" chute that extended over your robot's and the trailer's bumpers.

I'm not upset at no-goaltending and no-descoring rules, as it would have been difficult to do within the 28x38 footprint anyway.

I didn't receive an e-mail blast about Team Update 1. Did anyone?

Rookies don't know to look for this stuff, so remember to get the word out to your local rookie teams about the changes this update implements.I'm not a mentor, so I'm not on the list. This Update came out on a Tuesday; last year the schedule was Tuesdays and Fridays. Were teams informed to look for Updates on this schedule this year?

[johnr]

Team Update #1

1- You will build team #???? robot from 2006
no other updates this year
:ahh:

[Kit Gerhart]

I think you mean Bill.

Incidentally, the GDC is the Supreme Court of FRC right now. (They are also the Legislature and the executive branch.) So if one of them says something about a rule, you might want to listen up. If Bill posts something, I'm willing to bet that it's also the opinion of the rest of the GDC.
I'd like to see a specific statement in Q and A or a team update that "suck down" is specifically illegal before we completely abandon the idea, but based on Bill's statement, I suspect that clarification will come.

[Paul Copioli]

I heard a rumor that they will hold down the surface with double sided carpet tape underneath and fiberglass tape at all of the seams and edges. We are using 4 x 8 sheets and have 3/4 of a field put together. We are only using the fiberglass tape and the field doesn't move. The tape is clear with fibers going the long way and sideways like a grid. I found it in the paint department at Home Depot. The double sided tape is in the flooring / carpet department at Home Depot.

We have driven about 6 hours on the floor and it is holding up just fine. All of the forces this year are much, much lower than in previous years.

[Ryan Albright]

I don't know, the whole way that FIRST does team updates . . kinda feels like a waiter brings out your food, puts it in front of you. then just as you get your forks out, hurries to change your order because the chef wanted to make soup not steak . . kinda unprofessional. In this regard is where I really have to say BEST manages better than FIRST.

but ohh well. on to how to place balls while being at least 10 inches away from where they need to be.

Edit: to elaborate on BEST's team updates method. they have a Q&A much like FIRST where rules are clarified. Past that there are no updates to the official rules or additional rules. Once the game is out that is the game that will be played. If BEST had intended for teams not to steal they would ( and have in past games) simply said teams cannot remove game items from other teams scoring areas.


I think its a little far to call it unprofessional. You have a set number of game designers that have been designing a game for so many months. When that set of people look at something for so long of course you are going to miss something.

Then when you release this game to 10,000+ critics. The game is going to be picked apart and strategy and robot ideas are going to come up that they did not even think of.

I think FIRST does a great job with their updates and trying to keep the game fair. Granted I do like having a defensive robot makes the game exciting. Thats why 2003 game stack attack was one of my favorites. that last 30 seconds of the game, all hell broke loose trying to get your robot on the ramp to get the extra 50 points.