Should you invoke the wrath of <G14>, the whole world will know!

[Ian Curtis]

For all of you scouting guys, the GDC just made your job a little bit easier. The field will track the implications <G14>and display it to the audience.

Q&A Response (http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=11222)

[CraigHickman]

Cool, now there's an automated system to punish us for being good at what we're assigned!

[Billfred]

Cool, now there's an automated system to punish us for being good at what we're assigned!
Alternatively: Cool, now there's an automated system to ensure that factors pertaining to the game carry over effectively and without reduced chances of a flub materially affecting the game (a la autonomous scoring causing the wrong team to go on offense first in 2006).

G14 gripes aside, at least they're trying to make sure everything is enforced properly.

[smurfgirl]

I think this will be most beneficial to audience members, especially people who haven't been that exposed to the game (families/friends/other guests). The people on the field probably could keep decent track of it themselves. Anyway, it's good to know that we have this now, rather than it be implemented after week 1 or something.

[JackG]

I think this will be most beneficial to audience members, especially people who haven't been that exposed to the game (families/friends/other guests). The people on the field probably could keep decent track of it themselves.

Beg to differ. I could see a number of coaches - excuse me, commanders - glancing at the scoreboard during the match to know when to have the drivers hold back on the scoring.

That makes me hope that the projectors will be aligned so as to allow the drive team to see the score easily. Otherwise, illegal signals from the audience would be rewarded, even if they are outlawed.

[Paul Copioli]

I have a theory.

A very low percentage of alliances will actually score more than 2 super cells anyway, so up to 2 teams in an alliance can have 2 super cells / empty cells taken away without it mattering. Let me explain.

Two teams on an allinace get 2 super cells each in their fueling stations. One team gets 4 empty cells. If two teams in an alliance get their super cells / empty cells taken away, then you put one in a fueling station and one in an outpost and you still will have 2 empty cells and 2 super cells left.

Based on this fact, we are not sweating G14. Our goal is to get a G14 penalty in every match we play! I love this game!!

[Mr. Freeman]

Beg to differ. I could see a number of coaches - excuse me, commanders - glancing at the scoreboard during the match to know when to have the drivers hold back on the scoring.

That makes me hope that the projectors will be aligned so as to allow the drive team to see the score easily. Otherwise, illegal signals from the audience would be rewarded, even if they are outlawed.

It sounds like the system will only track the G14 final results, not the real time score, so it would be useless for real time feedback to the drivers.

[EricH]

It sounds like the system will only track the G14 final results, not the real time score, so it would be useless for real time feedback to the drivers.But the realtime score can give an indication. Remember, <G14> is pre-penalties, so if your commander sees that the score is 32-10, he can alert the drivers.

[Mr. Freeman]

But the realtime score can give an indication. Remember, <G14> is pre-penalties, so if your commander sees that the score is 32-10, he can alert the drivers.

That's my point. I don't think there will be a real time score.

[smurfgirl]

That's my point. I don't think there will be a real time score.

But at any rate, the commanders will have been watching the field all match anyway, and they'll have a decent idea of what the score is, whether there is a real-time score or not. Hence why seeing about <G14> on the scoreboard screen thing is more of a simple reassurance for commanders, and a real clue-in to people less familiar with the game.

[pitzoid]

There will be a real time score. If you look at the pictures the Blue Alliance circulated from the New Hampshire Kickoff, there were pictures of the scoring controllers 4FX Design designed for the game.

Controllers (http://www.flickr.com/photos/22421182@N05/3164594476/in/set-72157611844292070/)
and
Controller Screen (http://www.flickr.com/photos/22421182@N05/3164596040/in/set-72157611844292070/)

and the Audience Screen Score Bar (http://www.flickr.com/photos/22421182@N05/3163789235/in/set-72157611844292070/)

Each robot will have a individual "scorer" (total of 6) that counts the moon Rocks and Cells in a robot's associated trailer. The cummulative Rocks and empty Cells for an alliance will be number that appears next to the symbol that looks like a game piece on the screen, "legal" Super Cells in trailers will appear as lighting bolts under that number, the cummulative score of Rocks and Cells will be the total score for an alliance in the associated colored square towards the middle of the screen. the ovals around the team numbers (green in the associated picture) will change color to indicate if a team has a <G14> penalty from the previous match. This will be evident as soon as the team numbers are brought up for the forthcoming match. Also this year, when a team is issued a penalty, it will immediately be indicated on the audience screen above the team score with a "penalty bar" similar to what they use to indicate "flags" on tv football games.

BotBash BOB Pitzer
4FX Design

[GaryVoshol]

Also this year, when a team is issued a penalty, it will immediately be indicated on the audience screen above the team score with a "penalty bar" similar to what they use to indicate "flags" on tv football games.I thought penalties weren't determined until after the Referee calling it consulted with the Head Referee after the match.

[artdutra04]

For all of you scouting guys, the GDC just made your job a little bit easier. The field will track the implications <G14>and display it to the audience.So now everyone will know which teams won their previous match by a large margin when they're up on the playing field. :rolleyes:

If the number of teams affected by this rule is over 16.67% (1/6), then the odds are that each match played this year will be affected by this rule in some form.

And after quickly looking over scores from last year from a few random events, it looks like this rule will affect about 35-50% of all matches. Now while these numbers were based upon the post-penalty scores, it's quite possible that we'd see similar rates on pre-penalty scores.

These values were a bit shocking at first, but the more I look into it, the more I agree with basically "ignoring" G14 strategy-wise, and then just treating the extra balls you would have lost as "bonus" balls going into a match if you hadn't won by a 2x or 3x margin. Especially since you can only use them in the last 20 seconds, this essentially means they're human scored only (it will be rare that a robot will be able to get and score one of these in 20 seconds).

If the robots won't have much of a chance of scoring them in time, and if there isn't a good shot for the human player, the ball is worthless. Just a distraction. And if you're already ahead by a [significant] margin, then scoring these balls would only put you further into the hole for future matches.

[Doug Leppard]

I have a theory.

A very low percentage of alliances will actually score more than 2 super cells anyway, so up to 2 teams in an alliance can have 2 super cells / empty cells taken away without it mattering. Let me explain.

Two teams on an allinace get 2 super cells each in their fueling stations. One team gets 4 empty cells. If two teams in an alliance get their super cells / empty cells taken away, then you put one in a fueling station and one in an outpost and you still will have 2 empty cells and 2 super cells left.

Based on this fact, we are not sweating G14. Our goal is to get a G14 penalty in every match we play! I love this game!!

First let me say Thunder Chickens is a great team.

Second I totally agree with you. I think it may be difficult to get those empty cells from the outpost to the fueling station. Then the human player must score the super cell. All that to say i agree with keep scoring.

[XaulZan11]

And after quickly looking over scores from last year from a few random events, it looks like this rule will affect about 35-50% of all matches. Now while these numbers were based upon the post-penalty scores, it's quite possible that we'd see similar rates on pre-penalty scores.


I highly doubt the average scores and standard devation of this year will be similar to last year and other previous years. I think scores will be closer together, forcing G14 into effect less than 35% of the time.

[kirtar]

Now something that I'm wondering is: Will <G14> carry from qualification to elimination (e.g. you score >3x on your last qual and get picked)? Probably... unfortunately, I have a feeling that it will.

[dgraves702]

I'm wondering if G14 will be assessed during Elimination Rounds, as it can potentially have a much bigger effect than in the qualification matches.

The penalty is assigned to each TEAM in the offending ALLIANCE. In the qualifying matches, those teams will not be together in their next match, so unless by coincidence more than one team is penalized, the effect of the penalty will be minimal.

In ELIMINATION matches though, the alliance stays together, meaning that if they end up with the 3x score, then 64 potential points come off the table before the next match even begins (all four Super Cells and 2 Empty Cells).

[Dave Scheck]

Our goal is to get a G14 penalty in every match we playRaul, is that you? :rolleyes:

[Waynep]

Raul, is that you? :rolleyes:

That's his twin. Separated at birth Pa-ul.....

I'm with Copioli on this one. I'm using G14 as a motivational rule.

[Jared Russell]

I could see some interesting repercussions of <G14> in the playoffs...

(it does apply in the playoffs, does it not? EDIT: It sure looks that way from the rulebook)

[Rich Kressly]

I have a theory.

A very low percentage of alliances will actually score more than 2 super cells anyway, so up to 2 teams in an alliance can have 2 super cells / empty cells taken away without it mattering. Let me explain.

Two teams on an allinace get 2 super cells each in their fueling stations. One team gets 4 empty cells. If two teams in an alliance get their super cells / empty cells taken away, then you put one in a fueling station and one in an outpost and you still will have 2 empty cells and 2 super cells left.

Based on this fact, we are not sweating G14. Our goal is to get a G14 penalty in every match we play! I love this game!!

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Paul Copioli again"

Paul, as usual, focuses us on a very important thought.

[Jared Russell]

If I Alliance A beats Alliance B in the first round of an elimination match by a score of 30 to 8, alliance A would not have any super cells in the second match... (each payload specialist would lose 2 game pieces).

And what if in the semifinals, you blow out your opponent in the final match? You get to start the finals without any 15 point game pieces!

[GaryVoshol]

Any chance anyone would view running up the score as egregious behavior? Ah'm jist askin'.

[EricH]

Any chance anyone would view running up the score as egregious behavior? Ah'm jist askin'.
Not me. Some will, but did anyone complain when the Sooners ran up 60+ points per game against opponents who scored, for the most part, less than 20? (Other than fans of the losing teams, that is.)

[Rick TYler]

I think this will be most beneficial to audience members, especially people who haven't been that exposed to the game (families/friends/other guests). The people on the field probably could keep decent track of it themselves.

As the Seattle Regional Scorekeeper last year and this year, I can only say THANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOU to whoever made tracking this an automatic process. Keeping track of the match-to-match scores of 50+ robots would be a nightmare for the poor, overworked scorekeeper. Trust me. :)

[Justin Montois]

Any chance anyone would view running up the score as egregious behavior? Ah'm jist askin'.

I think some people will. The purpose of the rule is to keep the games close and discourage teams from blowing other alliances out.

Purposely ignoring the rule and piling on anyway seems pretty egregious, not to mention not very GP and I think some people will take offsense to seeing a strong alliance blast another one out of the water.

Personally, I'm split. I don't like the thought of ignoring the rule but I love seeing a strong robot dominating at what it's designed to do.

[Karthik]

Any chance anyone would view running up the score as egregious behavior? Ah'm jist askin'.

As a team who has often been looked down upon for winning matches by large margins, I can assure you there will be complaints. (Funny, that the people who were upset at us for supposedly running up the score, were the same people who complained when we actively scored for our opponents.)

[jgannon]

The purpose of the rule is to keep the games close and discourage teams from blowing other alliances out.
Since this hasn't been explicitly stated anywhere, you might want to be careful asserting it as fact.
I do have to ask: why are you so convinced that the GDC was attempting to "level the playing field"? [...] I can tell you that some of those publicly stated assumptions (including those concerning the rationale behind Rule <G14>) are just flat out wrong. Perhaps there were reasons other than "leveling the playing field" [...] that might have affected the design of the game?

[Paul Copioli]

To me, actively scoring for the opponent is worse than playing your best.

In addition, stopping to try your hardest in a match is just as bad.

To me, it is disrespectful to score for the other team and FIRST is basically encouraging it (so I do not fault teams that do it).

We will not score for the other team. We will not stop trying hard. As a result, we will get a lot of G14 penalties if we are lucky enough to be partnered with great teams. The message I am sending to my students is this:

Be respectful at all times even if it means scoring more than 3x the opponents score on the field.

[Justin Montois]

Since this hasn't been explicitly stated anywhere, you might want to be careful asserting it as fact.

If you ask the majority of the teams why they think the rule is in place I think they would tell you that it's to discourage teams form running up the score.

What else could it be?

To encourage blowing out the other alliance? Certainly not.

If you get penalized for blowing out your opposing alliance, it seems to me that the GDC wanted to discourage that.

[Doug Leppard]

To me, actively scoring for the opponent is worse than playing your best.

In addition, stopping to try your hardest in a match is just as bad.

To me, it is disrespectful to score for the other team and FIRST is basically encouraging it (so I do not fault teams that do it).

We will not score for the other team. We will not stop trying hard. As a result, we will get a lot of G14 penalties if we are lucky enough to be partnered with great teams. The message I am sending to my students is this:

Be respectful at all times even if it means scoring more than 3x the opponents score on the field.

Agreed. Problem some teams will have low scores and it will be hard not to double. Could be dangerous to keep score close and all of a sudden a penalty makes you loose.

People don't like blow away games, but in NBA you don't pay to watch a team holding back, but you want them to play great ball.

[EricH]

If you ask the majority of the teams why they think the rule is in place I think they would tell you that it's to discourage teams form running up the score.

What else could it be?

To encourage blowing out the other alliance? Certainly not.

If you get penalized for blowing out your opposing alliance, it seems to me that the GDC wanted to discourage that. What about strategy? Maybe (I'm not on the GDC) the GDC wanted to encourage strategy instead of pounding defense/offense. So they have that rule in place to encourage teams to think about strategy, i.e., "We're up against 1114 and 217 next match, and we are up against a couple of bricks on wheels this match. We *might* need those Super Cells and a bit of luck. Let's get those Super Cells by not scoring too much this round."

[Justin Montois]

What about strategy? Maybe (I'm not on the GDC) the GDC wanted to encourage strategy instead of pounding defense/offense. So they have that rule in place to encourage teams to think about strategy, i.e., "We're up against 1114 and 217 next match, and we are up against a couple of bricks on wheels this match. We *might* need those Super Cells and a bit of luck. Let's get those Super Cells by not scoring too much this round."

I totally agree that a lot of strategy will be based with this rule in mind but even in that sense your still thinking "I don't want to run up the score this match so I have my SuperCells next match"

Fundamentally the rule is still discouraging teams from running up the score.

In any event, I think the teams that disregard G14 will be looked down on by other teams, then agian that might be largely jealousy ;)

[rjmah]

For those teams who make a good vision tracking shooter, make sure you can quickly flip the switch on alliance color, in case you need to score in your own alliance trailers to bring the score closer.

[XXShadowXX]

For those teams who make a good vision tracking shooter, make sure you can quickly flip the switch on alliance color, in case you need to score in your own alliance trailers to bring the score closer.

It will also boost your round score boosting your Rank... hmm not bad at all

[rick.oliver]

To me, actively scoring for the opponent is worse than playing your best.

In addition, stopping to try your hardest in a match is just as bad.

To me, it is disrespectful to score for the other team and FIRST is basically encouraging it (so I do not fault teams that do it).

We will not score for the other team. We will not stop trying hard. As a result, we will get a lot of G14 penalties if we are lucky enough to be partnered with great teams. The message I am sending to my students is this:

Be respectful at all times even if it means scoring more than 3x the opponents score on the field.

I understand the perspective; however, I do not share it entirely. Scoring points that accrue to your opponents is clearly within the rules this year. As such it represents a legitimate strategy, albeit not without risk. I don't know why the rule exists. To be sure, I don't particularly care for it.

I do agree with being respectful and I appreciate the "gracious assertiveness" with which many teams approach the game. I, too will be encouraging our team to excel and to do their best at all times - always being respectful. If that means depositing some game pieces in the trailer that our robot is pulling in order to enhance our ranking points, then so be it. I trust that our opposing alliance will understand that we mean no disrespect and that we are merely playing the game within the rules, but to win.

[Wayne C.]

Based on this fact, we are not sweating G14. Our goal is to get a G14 penalty in every match we play! I love this game!!



we don't need no stinkin' empty cells.......


:cool: