Legality of witholding control system post ship

[May_Walter]

hey everyone
I wanted to ask whether it's possible to send the robot on due day without the electricity system
thank you,
Team #3038

[T3_1565]

if by that you mean all the wiring and Crio, and power distrubution, the answer is "no".

You aren't allowed to leave any part of your robot back at the shop once the robot needs to be shipped

[EricVanWyk]

Can we please rename this thread?

T3_1565, your answer is incorrect. Please refer to section 8.3.4

[May_Walter]

okay, can you please quote the rule that says it's forbidden? we thought we will be able to leave it behind in order to practice with a similar bot.
thanks again.

[MrForbes]

You can withold parts of the robot

<R26>....
D. The total weight of the FABRICATED ITEMS (SPARE, REPLACEMENT, and UPGRADE PARTS, plus all WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE items) worked upon during this period and brought to the competition event(s) must not exceed the limits specified in Rule <R36>. The primary intent of this rule is to allow teams to withhold the ROBOT control system, the OPERATOR CONSOLE, and selected relevant subsystems, and access them after the shipping deadline. This will allow teams to have the maximum time possible prior to each competition event to develop and complete the software for their ROBOT while maximizing the potential to understand and use the capabilities provided by the new control system.

[May_Walter]

so I understand from that that we can do it?

[Joe G.]

*obligatory "rules in past years do not apply to this year" reminder*

<R26> During the period between the shipment of the ROBOT and the competitions: During this
period, all teams may manufacture SPARE, REPLACEMENT, and UPGRADE PARTS, and
develop software for their ROBOT at their home facility.
A. Teams may manufacture all the SPARE, REPLACEMENT and UPGRADE PARTS they
want.
B. There is no limit to the amount of time that may be put into this effort, other than via the
realities of the calendar.
C. Teams may continue development of any items retained under the WITHHOLDING
ALLOWANCE, continue to work on them during this period, and then bring them to the
competition events.
D. The total weight of the FABRICATED ITEMS (SPARE, REPLACEMENT, and UPGRADE
PARTS, plus all WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE items) worked upon during this period and
brought to the competition event(s) must not exceed the limits specified in Rule <R36>.
The primary intent of this rule is to allow teams to withhold the ROBOT control system, the
OPERATOR CONSOLE, and selected relevant subsystems, and access them after the
shipping deadline. This will allow teams to have the maximum time possible prior to each
competition event to develop and complete the software for their ROBOT while maximizing
the potential to understand and use the capabilities provided by the new control system.

<R36> Teams may bring a maximum of 40 pounds of custom FABRICATED ITEMS (SPARE
PARTS, REPLACEMENT PARTS, and UPGRADE PARTS, plus all WITHHOLDING
ALLOWANCE items) to each competition event to be used to repair and/or upgrade their
ROBOT at the competition site. All other FABRICATED ITEMS to be used on the ROBOT
during the competition shall arrive at the competition venue packed in the shipping crate with
the ROBOT.
• Exception: the OPERATOR CONSOLE is not included in the incoming parts weight
restriction.

[T3_1565]

my apoligises... must be a rule that we set as a team lol... everything must be done... besides spares

[Elgin Clock]

my apoligises... must be a rule that we set as a team lol... everything must be done... besides spares

Yes, you can hold onto your control system.
Re-read the part I quoted below from <R26>:

The primary intent of this rule is to allow teams to withhold the ROBOT control system, the
OPERATOR CONSOLE, and selected relevant subsystems, and access them after the
shipping deadline. This will allow teams to have the maximum time possible prior to each
competition event to develop and complete the software for their ROBOT while maximizing
the potential to understand and use the capabilities provided by the new control system.

[T3_1565]

I know.. all I was saying was apparently the rule I was thinking of was actually set by my team. We ship as much as possible, but its obviously a thing that we do as a team.. again, my apologises.

[Alan Anderson]

my apoligises... must be a rule that we set as a team lol... everything must be done... besides spares

It's not a team rule. It's a FIRST Robotics Competition rule -- but it's an old FRC rule that is not in the manual the same way this year. In previous years, there was no WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE. The entire robot (including the Operator Console) was to be shipped by the deadline (a certain weight of fabricated spare parts could be brought to competition separately).

Rules from previous years do not automatically carry over. Only this year's rules apply. This year's rules include the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE.

[T3_1565]

oh I see... well there you go! I was right all along (last year) lol...

[CraigHickman]

Here, have some concrete clarification. This is from an old PM of mine with Dave. If he minds me posting it, I'll delete it the moment there's a complaint.

No problem. Hey, quick question. From what I see in the rules about the fixit window, if our drive train is >40 lbs, and we ship the CRIO in the crate, theoretically we can keep the drive train and get drive practice. I understand this isn't in the spirit of FIRST, but any insight into this?

With the withholding allowance, you can keep 40 pounds of anything from your robot that you want. it doesn't matter if it is the control system, the drive system, the manipulator or whatever. That choice is up to you. If you decide to use your withholding allowance to keep your drive system, there is nothing wrong with that. If anyone tells you that it "isn't in the spirit of FIRST" you can tell them that they just don't get it.


-dave

[synth3tk]

Thanks, all! My team was asking the same thing, and I was about to make a new thread until I read this.

[Pjohn1959]

As quoted from the Q & A:

Under the Withholding Allowance, the TEAM may bring up to 40 pounds of ROBOT materials to the competition event. These materials may be any combination of FABRICATED ITEMS and ROBOT parts withheld from shipping. This can be any part or subsystem of the ROBOT - including a drive base - as long as it does not exceed the permitted incoming weight allowance specified in Rule <R36>.

So if you want to keep a 'completed' drive base, including electrical and control systems, and bring it with you to the competitions, then it is perfectly legal this year, as long as it is under the 40 pound limit.

[Brandon Holley]

Maybe someone can answer this question for me...

Will the same 40 lb. withholding allowance apply event to event? For example, if I attend a week 1 regional...show up to the competition with 40 lbs of withheld robot and then compete for the weekend, am i then allowed to take 40 lbs. of stuff off the robot again, ship it to my week 4 regional, and then show up there with the 40 lbs. again??

Thanks in advance,
Brando

[seanl]

Just wondering, does the weight of the operator console count towards the 40 lbs?

[Vikesrock]

Am i then allowed to take 40 lbs. of stuff off the robot again, ship it to my week 4 regional, and then show up there with the 40 lbs. again??


This is correct, see <R27>-A

Just wondering, does the weight of the operator console count towards the 40 lbs?

No it does not count towards the allowed weight, see <R36>

[Joe Ross]

No it does not count towards the allowed weight, see <R35>

It's actually <R36>.

[Vikesrock]

It's actually <R36>.

Thanks Joe, I still had Rev F of the manual on my computer.

Wow, was it just Rev F that had the wrong numbering or did every Rev up to the current one have two R18s? Is every post citing specific rules (from section 8) prior to the current Rev incorrectly numbered?

[Joe Ross]

Wow, was it just Rev F that had the wrong numbering or did every Rev up to the current one have two R18s? Is every post citing specific rules (from section 8) prior to the current Rev incorrectly numbered?

See here: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?p=812720#post812720 (let's not let esoteric rule numbering distract from the real purpose of this thread).

[Enigma's puzzle]

But there is a difference between operator console the controls, ie. joysticks and what not, and the electronics inboard the robot that actually control the robot, the inboard operator consul has to actually be counted, just wanted to clear this up because i believe some people are confused.

[Alan Anderson]

But there is a difference between operator console the controls, ie. joysticks and what not, and the electronics inboard the robot that actually control the robot, the inboard operator consul has to actually be counted, just wanted to clear this up because i believe some people are confused.

Some people are definitely confused. You're either one of them, or one of the causes of the others. I can't figure out what "inboard operator consul [sic]" is meant to refer to.

The Operator Console is automatically permitted to be left out of the shipping crate if desired, but it does not count against the 40 pound limit. That limit is for ROBOT parts.