Fewer Animations?

[MadeAtMidnight]

Are there really only 82 animations this year? Last year there were 224. Any ideas why?
1625 hosted a 1 day camp last summer and the animation classes filled up first. (Although we did have a more limited number than some ot the other classes.) I thought there might be more this year.

[NorviewsVeteran]

Well, we had about 5 people on our animation, 3 that showed up, and 1 that did anything. And he spent more time and got more done in the shop.

[lilwupster]

no, I don't think so. I started looking at them when there were 22 up there, and it was at 81 yesterday. I think it's just taking a while to get them all up on the page which is why they haven't put an official link yet.

[MadeAtMidnight]

that makes sense :)
I imagine it is a lot of work for them to get everything in order.

thanks,

[cbale2000]

I think the reasoning generally stems from a lack of knowledgeable people. If you think about it, most teams have mentors that are familiar with certain aspects of the team, whether it be CAD, Machining, business or what ever. However, I do not know of a team (though I'm sure there are at least a few) that have mentors that work with 3DsMax in their jobs.

Our animation team (2 years ago when we actually still had one) consisted of 3 people who had no idea what they were doing, even after managing a few simple clips, no one really knew how we were going to come up with an animation idea and then create it, on top of that no one could find the rules for the animation stuff and later found out that we had passed the deadline anyways.


Personally, I think they would get more entries for the animation if they allowed the use of other software as well (at a teams own expense of course), in my experience I've found 3DsMax is NOT very user friendly when compared with other options out there. :o


In the general scheme of things, I think when teams prioritize, they look at animations as a secondary objective, and if they're not even sure if they're going to be able to finish one, why even try? Not the best attitude but unless you have a team with like 50 people, it's the reality of the competition.

[/rant] :rolleyes:

[boehmz]

Where are you guys seeing this? Are the animations grouped by regional already like they were yesterday? I'd like to see what kind of competition there will be at the regionals our team is going to.

[MadeAtMidnight]

the link was posted under "2009: Post a Link to Your Animation" --

http://firstbasefrc.autodesk.com/?&nd=m_first_competition_vis2009_viewer&base=26

but it is now up to 101 from 82, so \i think they are still working on them.

[nnfuller]

I think it might have to do with the fact that this year's season was so off center that it might have thrown some teams off.:D

[Koko Ed]

When resources get tight and there just aren't as many kids to go around animation is always the first to go.

[Mazin]

When resources get tight and there just aren't as many kids to go around animation is always the first to go.

Yes, especially given a theme that found teams hard-pressed to come up with anything worth animating.

"Do you have any good ideas?"
"Um, not really."
"Meh, let's just not do an animation this year."
"Yeah, good idea."

[Church]

Personally, I think they would get more entries for the animation if they allowed the use of other software as well (at a teams own expense of course), in my experience I've found 3DsMax is NOT very user friendly when compared with other options out there. :o


I agree that it would be better for this teams, however, Autodesk sponsors the award. Also, FIRST is basically about learning new things, even if it is hard. 3dsmax does have a huge learning curve--the interface is unlike anything most students have ever used before, but once you understand the gist, it's easy enough to do some decent work.

As for finding students, I've found that it's best to work with a smaller number of students anyway. Having too much going on is hard to put together and collaborate, especially since you can only have one person on a computer anyway.

It's hard, true, but it's what I've been doing for years so I want to see it kept alive :D

[Koko Ed]

Yes, especially given a theme that found teams hard-pressed to come up with anything worth animating.

"Do you have any good ideas?"
"Um, not really."
"Meh, let's just not do an animation this year."
"Yeah, good idea."



I still say animation is the illegitimate child of the FIRST family locked away in the attic and never spoken about.

[MadeAtMidnight]

Yes, especially given a theme that found teams hard-pressed to come up with anything worth animating.

"Do you have any good ideas?"
"Um, not really."
"Meh, let's just not do an animation this year."
"Yeah, good idea."

Surely such a group of creative individuals could come up with SOME idea (and I know you all are very creative based on past posts :D
Consider it a challenge........

[MadeAtMidnight]

I still say animation is the illegitimate child of the FIRST family locked away in the attic and never spoken about.

lol, I'm trying to figure out a way to change that. When I see how much it influenced Pete (BuddyB309), I realize that this has so much to offer students. Maybe if they were due at different times? I know that most of the kids that learned the program over the summer and fall, worked mostly on the robot. If they hadn't had to choose between the two, they would have helped with the animation also.

[NorviewsVeteran]

I keep telling people who whine about the animation not getting done, "its the FIRST ROBOTICS competition, not the FIRST ANIMATION contest. Now get back in the shop and cut that piece I told you to."

[Koko Ed]

I keep telling people who whine about the animation not getting done, "its the FIRST ROBOTICS competition, not the FIRST ANIMATION contest. Now get back in the shop and cut that piece I told you to."

I personally think the animation competition needs major league retooling to make it actually legitimate and useful instead of the sideshow afterthought that it is.
It should be made into a video design competition that features animation to create 2 minute team previews that can be shown during the eventual downtime that occur at the events due to the field breaking down.

[cbale2000]

I personally think the animation competition needs major league retooling to make it actually legitimate and useful instead of the sideshow afterthought that it is.
It should be made into a video design competition that features animation to create 2 minute team previews that can be shown during the eventual downtime that occur at the events due to the field breaking down.

Not a bad idea actually, that way anyone who can figure out a camera and Windows Movie Maker would at least be able to submit something, maybe setup a point system for it where you get more points for having an animation in it, but it wouldn't require you to have one in order to submit one. :rolleyes:

[BuddyB309]

I keep telling people who whine about the animation not getting done, "its the FIRST ROBOTICS competition, not the FIRST ANIMATION contest. Now get back in the shop and cut that piece I told you to."

WHOA!!! that hurts. You might as well stabbed me in the chest with a monkey wrench. When I joined robotics, I thought I was going to be a mechanical engineer. FIRST taught me I HATE engineering, but then I found animation. And fell deeply in love with it. I now think of nothing other than animation and loving every bit of it. Which is far better than me being in my sophomore year of college just now finding out I hate engineering and not know what to do.

It hurts when people say that to teammates. Some of my teamates wanted me off the team because I wasn't helping with the robot when I did animation for the first year. Animation is HARD. Let die hard animation lovers be. Don't force them to do something they don't like.

[cbale2000]

True, however, if you don't have a finished robot to compete with then an animation isn't really going to do you much good will it? Granted if you have enough people on the team to get the robot done, so be it, but it is a reality for some teams that there are sometimes just not enough people to have some off working on side projects like animation and such. :(

[NorviewsVeteran]

Let die hard animation lovers be. Don't force them to do something they don't like.

I have no intentions of dragging animators away from 3ds max. The one guy who did anything on the animation team was more intent on the robot getting done, I was just keeping him on task. We lost our true animator last year to JMU.

[Chris27]

True, however, if you don't have a finished robot to compete with then an animation isn't really going to do you much good will it? Granted if you have enough people on the team to get the robot done, so be it, but it is a reality for some teams that there are sometimes just not enough people to have some off working on side projects like animation and such. :(

However in 2007, our animation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03opcTOLMGo&feature=PlayList&p=ABFA8BD6AECD1F6A&index=0&playnext=1) did allow our team to be a part of the Championship even though our robot could not.

FIRST is about exposing young high school students to Science and Technology. By participating in the FIRST program under the guidance of mentors, students are exposed to options of what they want to do later in life that they may otherwise not know about until the middle of college. There is much more than just engineering (even though that's what FIRST focuses on).

The robot is just a vehicle for this experience. It doesn't have to be particularly successful for students to have the "FIRST" experience. The kitbot, which provides a good deal of functionality, can be put together in a matter of hours. Teams are missing out if they only focus on just having a complete robot on ship day and neglect other aspects of FIRST.

[Aren_Hill]

You might as well stabbed me in the chest with a monkey wrench.

pete do you even know what a monkey wrench is?:D god i love bugging you.

i really wish i could write well enough to tell the story of the epic war between pete and myself, one full of sarcasm and brotherly love. lol

[JaneYoung]

i really wish i could write well enough to tell the story of the epic war between pete and myself, one full of sarcasm and brotherly love. lol

There's no harm in trying.

Get some team members to help you proof, edit. It sounds like a good story.

[Chris27]

pete do you even know what a monkey wrench is?:D

Hint: it has nothing to do with tinfoil and monkies ;). Although, looking back to our rookie year, I'm curious what would have happened if we followed Pete's suggestion of training a monkey, encasing it with tinfoil, and passing it off as a robot. Hey, with the right monkey, maybe we would have done better in Atlanta :p.

[Koko Ed]

Hint: it has nothing to do with tinfoil and monkies ;). Although, looking back to our rookie year, I'm curious what would have happened if we followed Pete's suggestion of training a monkey, encasing it with tinfoil, and passing it off as a robot. Hey, with the right monkey, maybe we would have done better in Atlanta :p.

I'm guessing something more like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8md51JnCNFQ) would happen.

[Ryan Dognaux]

I still say animation is the illegitimate child of the FIRST family locked away in the attic and never spoken about.

Hit the nail on the head.

It'd be interesting to see where most of the animation students are at today from when the animation program started.

[NorviewsVeteran]

It'd be interesting to see where most of the animation students are at today from when the animation program started.

Oh god, butterfly effect. *starts looking around all paranoid*

I do like the idea of the animation aspect becoming more of an open ended thing, like using video and 3d animation together, or exclusively.

[takeegan]

i have to say if it weren't for animation team i wouldn't be going into the major i am. there's also a lot of people who's future has been altered by the animation team. oh and half the fun is trying to figure out how to do an animation with the topic given, if they took that away nobody would do it cuz there would be no challenge.

that's my defense of the animation team but as why so few are in i think they just haven't processed them yet.:)

[Magiciandude]

On our team, the animation team is respected...all 2 of us...

I helped start our FRC team in 2005 when I was a freshman wanting to be a software person. Animation got to me, and I haven't looked back since. Because of the animation competition, I've been accepted into my school of choice to go into 3d animation with a decent scholarship :)

I just think most people join a robotics team wanting to build a robot and don't even think twice about animation. A lot of people also don't respect how hard it is to create an animation. After all, animation isn't brain surgery. Brain surgery is easy...

So...in conclusion...I guess this post had no worth whatsoever :P

I do hope the animation program grows though :D.

-Chris

[BuddyB309]

I'm guessing something more like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8md51JnCNFQ) would happen.

That is by far the most creepiest thing I have ever seen. TOTALY AWESOME!

it has nothing to do with tinfoil and monkies . Although, looking back to our rookie year, I'm curious what would have happened if we followed Pete's suggestion of training a monkey, encasing it with tinfoil, and passing it off as a robot. Hey, with the right monkey, maybe we would have done better in Atlanta .

Ha you know my robot idea is awesome. That's why I suggest it ever year.

i really wish i could write well enough to tell the story of the epic war between pete and myself, one full of sarcasm and brotherly love. lol

To save Aren from writing a story, I think I can sum it up pretty good in this drawing. Except there would be more llamas in this picture.

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/775/meandaren.jpg


Oh and I enjoy the animation competition so much, I will be flying down to atlanta just the hang out in the autodesk booth again. So catch me there and you can ask me any question on animation. I think between me and the other guy. We got pretty much all aspects of animation covered.

[JaneYoung]

So...in conclusion...I guess this post had no worth whatsoever :P

I do hope the animation program grows though :D.

-Chris

Don't underestimate the value of a good post like yours.

You have written that you have received a scholarship to the school of your choice and that you are going into 3d animation. You have also explained a little bit of how you got involved in animation on your team. More stories like this should be told. It's stories like this that can help the animation program grow.

Last I looked, FIRST wasn't an acronym for inspiration and recognition of robots. It was and is an acronym for inspiration and recognition of science and technology. Animation fits in with that very nicely.

[Koko Ed]

That is by far the most creepiest thing I have ever seen. TOTALY AWESOME!




One of my animation kids said the video scarred her for life so I punished her for slacking by putting it on the computer and ruined her day.
No Woodie Flowers for me. (mwhahahahahaha!)

[Andrew Schuetze]

A complete reversal for the Toltechs, 499, is that we did not submit an entry this year for he first time in five years. The teacher/sponsor we had did not work with the team this year because the school district changed her program from an animation sequence to a photoshop/digital graphics sequence so no ready supply of talent.

As of 8:00 PM February 21st = 105 entries and none for Lone Star or Bayou Regional. Any entry to either would have been a guaranteed trophy:eek:

So time to start rebuilding the program for next year begins today:ahh:

[BHS_STopping]

A complete reversal for the Toltechs, 499, is that we did not submit an entry this year for he first time in five years. The teacher/sponsor we had did not work with the team this year because the school district changed her program from an animation sequence to a photoshop/digital graphics sequence so no ready supply of talent.

As of 8:00 PM February 21st = 105 entries and none for Lone Star or Bayou Regional. Any entry to either would have been a guaranteed trophy:eek:

So time to start rebuilding the program for next year begins today:ahh:

Team 1726 entered an animation this year, but it's not up on the site just yet it seems. I'm sure with more time we'll see FIRST put up more animations, hopefully!

[fireball3004]

It's at least true for my team, and seems like it would be true of others, that if your mentor or team members are frustrated by dwindling numbers or repeated failure to make it to Atlanta, that animation is dumped, and they ditch training the freshmen in order to make a better robot.


It's difficult in Hawaii in particular, because there are so few engineers here. Anyone who wants to be an engineer has to leave the islands to get a decent degree, and only a handful return, most work for the armed services... As a result we seem to have a distinct lack of engineers, animators, CAD users, or their children.


all that means though is that we all have to work harder to recruit and train new younglings.

[viking]

I support FIRST and AutoCAD in the animation portion of the FRC. It gives students a look at an emerging part of technical design that is becoming a standard tool in the architects and engineers knowledge base.

For those that say it is not directly part of the robotics build, then why don't we get rid of all the other supporting aspects of a FIRST robotics team?...such as websites, community outreach, public relations (t shirts, giveaways, etc) what you have left is a tradtional science fair, which FIRST is not.

We celebrate all aspects of science, technology, engineering and math; and have a great time doing it.

As someone said..."It is not people building robots, but robots building people".

[Ryan Dognaux]

although I understand that money is tight, I think the US school system has made a series of mistakes by not encouraging robotics and cad in general in schools, and dropping computer based art from curriculum's...

Some schools are bringing Project Lead the Way in as a way to teach students CAD and other various aspects of engineering. http://www.pltw.org/

[Eric DeMaso]

375's animation team was started by myself and a friend when we were in our sophomore year of high school. We self taught ourselves and since then the team has submitted an animation every single year without the help of a mentor that had any knowledge of the program before we came along.

The animation component of FRC has, at least in our school, brought in students to the team that might otherwise not have been interested in making a robot. But from the animation they branched out to making a website and this year assisting in making our Chairman's Award video.

In addition, this year the head of our animation team is also going to be part of the drive crew.

I definitely think doing the animation is worthwhile as it leads students to be creative and also to learn a new skill that will definitely be useful should they move on to a technical career after high school and college.

[Kevin Thorp]

Our other teammates used to make fun of our animation team - until we won a regional visualization award and the whole team got to go down to the floor to accept.

[Andrew Schreiber]

True, however, if you don't have a finished robot to compete with then an animation isn't really going to do you much good will it? Granted if you have enough people on the team to get the robot done, so be it, but it is a reality for some teams that there are sometimes just not enough people to have some off working on side projects like animation and such. :(

Well, then I suppose 397 shouldnt be doing an animation, we had more students want to do animation than wanted to build a robot. We still completed a robot.

By the way, who says you have to submit the animation you do? Or even follow FIRST's rules? Heresy I know, but Id rather have the students make something they want and have fun doing it than to have them not enjoy it. This is part of the reason 397 didnt actually submit our animation this year.

Also, if people are making fun of the animation team there needs to be a chat with the team, students should be allowed to follow their passions (within some limits) without fear of being mocked. I remember in my junior year I was doing an animation and one of the mentors told me that no one cared about the animation. I still recall that as one of the most offensive things ever said to me in FIRST. So animators, if you are being mocked by others on your team dont sit back and take it, respond with some snide remark about how all they do is hit stuff with a hammer, you are an artist! *



*Ok seriously, dont be a jerk back, that was a joke. Do let them know that you are doing what you feel is important. Don't ever let anyone else crush your dreams.

[Koko Ed]

There's 141 entries now.

[Kevin Thorp]

For the past few years we've had a strong animation team. When a mechanical student teases an animation student it doesn't bother them at all. Both sides respect each other (but that doesn't stop the kidding) :D

[BuddyB309]

Also, if people are making fun of the animation team there needs to be a chat with the team, students should be allowed to follow their passions (within some limits) without fear of being mocked. I remember in my junior year I was doing an animation and one of the mentors told me that no one cared about the animation. I still recall that as one of the most offensive things ever said to me in FIRST. So animators, if you are being mocked by others on your team dont sit back and take it, respond with some snide remark about how all they do is hit stuff with a hammer, you are an artist! *


WHOOO!!! AMEN BROTHER!!

yes same thing happened to me. I was so mad. I told her I was part of the team, and doing something for the team, and therefore should be allowed to work at the bot shop, and not be kicked off the team.

[JaneYoung]

Not everyone sees the big picture or the whole picture - including some mentors. It takes patience, determination, and mentoring the mentors in some areas, sometimes. Students can be very wise mentors, sometimes. Animation is a part of the FRC competition along with submission opportunities like the website, the Chairman's, the Woodie Flowers. There are veteran teams who choose not to submit for the Woodie Flowers Award. That one boggles my mind. Anyway - animation may not be understood by a team until someone or a few someones decide(s) that this is the year and make(s) it happen. Then it can become an aha moment and a celebration. An exhausted one, for sure, but a celebration, win, lose, or draw. And the finished animation can be showcased on the website and used for promotion/marketing purposes at demos.

[viking]

Up to 186 entries now, maybe we will get to last years benchmark after all.

[hipsterjr]

As a mechanical, I use to get on the animators. After winning 3 Safety animations and a couple regional wins, I respect what they do a lot more. As long as they keep bringing home hardware, they are good in my book. I walked into the animation lab on ship day for the first time all season, they showed me what they had come up with and I was like, "how in the world did you do that?!:yikes:" They responded saying, "how do you guys build a robot?" Mutal respect for different talents is a great way to practice GP in house.

[Church]

As a mechanical, I use to get on the animators. After winning 3 Safety animations and a couple regional wins, I respect what they do a lot more. As long as they keep bringing home hardware, they are good in my book. I walked into the animation lab on ship day for the first time all season, they showed me what they had come up with and I was like, "how in the world did you do that?!:yikes:" They responded saying, "how do you guys build a robot?" Mutal respect for different talents is a great way to practice GP in house.

If only more team members had the same epiphany. As a mentor, I don't get many chances to work with the students, but the adults on the team were very supportive. When I was in high school, no one went out of their way to treat us poorly, but I know that the majority of the team considered me and a lot of the other girls to be useless hangers-on. We were only vaguely appreciated even after we won a regional award. I was sad ;_;

[rastermon]

Its too bad some of you have had less than positive experiences at times. Mentors are a great resource, but don't forget you can do anything if you really want to. When I got into graphic design and 3D, it was still very expensive. The company I was at paid $150K :eek: for a basic 3D system. Any access you had to a 3d program was rare. The community college had a few Silicon Graphics workstations that were busy from 7 am till midnight with signups for login time. Today we have free access to a world class 3D app sitting idle for 10 months a year. Reading tutorials and just experimenting with all the tools is a good way to learn.
This isn't a "back in my day..." speech (well ok, maybe it is), but I'm still amazed that all this power is so affordable. :)

Spend some off-season time getting to know 3DSMax - I know easier said than done. I myself don't spend that much off season time with it. I'm a Mac user, so I don't have it installed on any of my own computers.

[BuddyB309]

Its too bad some of you have had less than positive experiences at times. Mentors are a great resource, but don't forget you can do anything if you really want to. When I got into graphic design and 3D, it was still very expensive. The company I was at paid $150K :eek: for a basic 3D system. Any access you had to a 3d program was rare. The community college had a few Silicon Graphics workstations that were busy from 7 am till midnight with signups for login time. Today we have free access to a world class 3D app sitting idle for 10 months a year. Reading tutorials and just experimenting with all the tools is a good way to learn.
This isn't a "back in my day..." speech (well ok, maybe it is), but I'm still amazed that all this power is so affordable. :)

Spend some off-season time getting to know 3DSMax - I know easier said than done. I myself don't spend that much off season time with it. I'm a Mac user, so I don't have it installed on any of my own computers.


Its my life. I don't do anything else.

[boehmz]

We're up to 187 now. The first student judging at week 1 regionals is today. I wish everyone good luck in their particular region. The only regional I know of going on this weekend is Kansas City, where our team submitted our animation to.

[BuddyB309]

Gah!!! Midwest Regional is this weekend?!! Catch me there people. I Should be the only one wearing a "Autodesk" sweatshirt. Its either blue or black.

[Church]

Its my life. I don't do anything else.
Yes, we know xD I think it was more a hint for people who don't live for animation.

New Jersey is this weekend as well! Let us know who wins at Midwest.

[boehmz]

It's the greater Kansas City Regional, I believe that is different than the Midwest Regional. If we win, it will be our first regional award in animation for our team. I would love to graduate knowing my last animation for Team Driven was a winner. But if we don't win, at least we got the Ted Boardman award for Best Camerawork last year ;)

[BuddyB309]

I must say, I was really disappointed at the Midwest regional. Not to many animators showed up. I couldn't find any to give any lessons to. :(

[16MentalTempest]

Hooboyhooboyhooboyhooboyhooboy

I've been looking at all 6 :eek: of the animations for the Seattle regional. I'd say 2046 is right in the middle; 2 of them look very rookie-ish (which is perfectly alright, we gotta start somewhere) and 2 of them look very polished and refined. Ours doesn't scream newbie, but it isn't the prettiest thing. Once again, nothing wrong with being a rookie, everybody's been one, even BuddyB309 (hard to believe :rolleyes: )!

[XXShadowXX]

we got two different dead lines confused and ended up not submitting.

[addictedMax]

I must say, I was really disappointed at the Midwest regional. Not to many animators showed up. I couldn't find any to give any lessons to. :( If you came to St Louis :cough cough:

Well, Animation is something where teamwork is needed badly. I'm an outgoing senior and I restarted 1094's team with basically no training my freshmen year. Here's what I did to get better on my own.

* Use the program Just use it screw around find out what that thingie does or that button does. It really helps when you're doing tutorials to know what the basic function of the program's UI.

*Find other animators I would have been lost if I hadn't met Pete at IRI, I can always go ask him for help (GP) and I;m sure hes saved the animation quite a few times.

*Do Tutorials

I'm passing on Animation to some juniors and some sophomores with animation becoming a lot better. It's also important to remember that each year you get so much better and better that you learn the skills you need and you can pass it down so they are better.

[Church]

we got two different dead lines confused and ended up not submitting.

Ooooh, rough. It's always tough to hear about teams who worked hard for seemingly nothing. On the bright side, you now have experience designing and creating an animation for competition, so it's not all bad.

addictedMax is right in that teamwork is huge, just like in any part of FRC. Hopefully you were all confused as a team! :D Confusion because everyone thinks that everyone else is wrong is no fun at all.

[addictedMax]

Hooboyhooboyhooboyhooboyhooboy

I've been looking at all 6 :eek: of the animations for the Seattle regional. I'd say 2046 is right in the middle; 2 of them look very rookie-ish (which is perfectly alright, we gotta start somewhere) and 2 of them look very polished and refined. Ours doesn't scream newbie, but it isn't the prettiest thing. Once again, nothing wrong with being a rookie, everybody's been one, even BuddyB309 (hard to believe :rolleyes: )!Theres 3 animations at St Louis. There has been usually 10 or more (like 1625s for example :cough:)

[BuddyB309]

Theres 3 animations at St Louis. There has been usually 10 or more (like 1625s for example :cough:)

Oh blah blah blah.... I couldn't make it. You always can catch me on AIM which is BuddyB309.

[pyr0b0y]

Animation is slowing losing the following that it had. i remember 4 years ago at our high school we had like 15 members for animation. we even had it into subgroups of modeling, motion, texture, etc. last year i was a senior and there was one other animator, who barely figured out how to fillet a week before it was due. There is a lack of teaching animation, i'm now the only mentor that knows animation, but most of the time all of the kids are in construction so i just usually CAD. Animation needs to make a comeback because it is such a resourceful tool. Most of the time if someone knows CAD, its easier to learn animation because a lot of the concepts are the same...........so sad....there were only a couple teams at our regional that submitted an animation!

[BuddyB309]

The autodesk booth had a cutback too in Atlanta. So sad.