Wiimote Digital Scouting System [Archive]

Dave Flowerday

23-03-2009, 17:47

This is a fairly good point. Depending on who's opinion you go by, since wi-fi rules aren't really enforced at all, wiimotes could possibly be illegal as they use bluetooth (2.4ghz). Really, it's a decision if bluetooth falls under "Wi-Fi use in the 2.4GHz or 5GHz bands is prohibited."
Update 12 says:
• Robots may be operated via wireless control only on the competition or practice fields.
• Two-way radios or other form of wireless communications are not allowed (with the exception of the previous bullet).

Update 13 adds to this:
Wireless communication clarification:
Regarding the wireless communication prohibition in Team Update 12, we’d like to clarify that general cell phone use is permitted. However, Wi-Fi use in the 2.4GHz or 5GHz bands is prohibited.

I read that as this: "Two way radios or other forms of wireless communications are not allowed, except for the robot wireless on the competition field and general cell phone use." It is clear they do not want interference in the 2.4GHz or 5GHz bands, so (IMHO) use of Bluetooth in this manner is not allowed. I'd recommend to anyone planning to use this system that they submit a Q&A question about it to get confirmation (unless one has already been submitted and I missed it).

Brandon Martus

23-03-2009, 18:49

The updates Dave posted are what made 148 use a wired network in the stands in Dallas for our scouting system.

Joe Ross

23-03-2009, 19:37

I read that as this: "Two way radios or other forms of wireless communications are not allowed, except for the robot wireless on the competition field and general cell phone use." It is clear they do not want interference in the 2.4GHz or 5GHz bands, so (IMHO) use of Bluetooth in this manner is not allowed. I'd recommend to anyone planning to use this system that they submit a Q&A question about it to get confirmation (unless one has already been submitted and I missed it).

I thought about the same thing. However, I read it the other way, they only want to block Wi-Fi, and allow other uses. The Wi-Fi alliance only certifies IEEE 802.11 equipment. Bluetooth is IEEE 802.15.

If they had really wanted to block bluetooth, they would have had to have big signs at the entrance to the stadiums, as every cell phone has bluetooth.

kirtar

23-03-2009, 19:39

I thought about the same thing. However, I read it the other way, they only want to block Wi-Fi, and allow other uses. The Wi-Fi alliance only certifies IEEE 802.11 equipment. Bluetooth is IEEE 802.15.

If they had really wanted to block bluetooth, they would have had to have big signs at the entrance to the stadiums, as every cell phone has bluetooth.
It's still on the same band though. At that point you may even ask why the bother restricting 2.4 GHz since all of their equipment is in the 5 GHz band (or is supposed to be so I am told). Solution? 802.11y! hahaha too bad I don't have a license for that.

MrForbes

23-03-2009, 20:30

I'm confused about why you think rules about what happens on the field and pits, applies to people in the stands? This system is designed to be used by spectators that are far from the field, and it has no interaction with the drive team or robot at all. As has been mentioned, almost everyone in the stands has a bluetooth transmitter with them.

Dave Flowerday

23-03-2009, 20:54

I'm confused about why you think rules about what happens on the field and pits, applies to people in the stands?
I do not see anywhere that specifies that the quoted rule applies only in the pits or on the field. The rule comes under the category of "At The Events -> FIRST Safety", and is in the same list of bullets as "Do not run in the venue", etc. There is a separate section titled "In the Pits" that specifies pit-specific rules. FIRST has many rules that do not pertain to the pits or the competition floor, like no noisemakers, taping items to walls, bleachers, etc, using objects that would damage the bleachers or floors, not saving seats, etc.

Since the rule is listed with a bullet under a heading of "Safety", it seems they are concerned with wireless interference causing a safety issue. Why would such interference only come from the competition floor or pit area, especially when the pits are typically further away from the field than the stands?
As has been mentioned, almost everyone in the stands has a bluetooth transmitter with them.I can't say that I've seen anyone using a Bluetooth headset in the competition this year. Technically everyone should be turning off the Bluetooth feature on their phones, but from a practical standpoint simply not using Bluetooth accessories should minimize Bluetooth transmissions to near zero. Obviously the scouting system discussed here is producing much more active transmissions.

Zach O

23-03-2009, 21:36

A miss is a miss you move on, But there are no misses!

I mean to create an average accuracy for the shooters and robots. Counting misses vs. makes could be a good thing to have also.

MrForbes

24-03-2009, 12:48

I don't recall any delays due to field problems at the Arizona regional, where they were using this scouting system.

bandducky511

24-03-2009, 20:31

Also, if another team was using the same Wii scouting system nearby, will the two systems affect one another?

engunneer

24-03-2009, 23:45

It shouldn't be. Since Wiimotes are bluetooth, they get paired with the computer (part of setup). once they are paired, they'll be fine.

Now if two teams are trying to pair at the same time, it could get interesting.

PICgnosis

25-03-2009, 15:56

Now if two teams are trying to pair at the same time, it could get interesting.

With BlueSoleil, you have the option to add devices from history, so you don't have to search through all available services. We add the unique devices addresses of the six wiimotes directly to the connection manager and never have to see any other devices.

The data entry and data analysis software is now available for download at www.nventivity.com/scout2.htm. The software is available as two zip files - one for the data entry program and one for the database analyzer. You may not necessarily want these two programs on the same laptop. Each zip file contains a README document that expains installation and operation. The wiimote button assignment pdf is also included in WiimoteScout.zip. This software has been tested on Win XP and 32-bit Vista. It requires .NET 2.0 and SQL Server 2005 Express Edition SP2, which will automatically be downloaded from Microsoft's website during the installation if they are not already on the target system.

We have received multiple requests from people wanting to record missed shots and penalities, so for Rev 1.0.0.1 we have added human player missed shots to the Autonomous and Teleop screens and penalties to the Endgame screen. There is additionally a Human Percent column in the MatchData table of the database.

POWSpyder

25-03-2009, 16:37

I think this is one of the best ideas ive ever heard! Wii Mote Scouting= Genius!:ahh: :D

N7UJJ

25-03-2009, 18:45

heh...do the math! 842 was the #8 alliance captain, they did their scouting using this system, they were the only alliance to win a match against the #1 alliance....

It is even better. We were ranked in the 30s Friday night. We won our matches Saturday and wound up 14th and we felt we would be picked. We were not really prepared to choose two teams but as the selection process went on, we realized that we may wind up in the eighth spot. Karen and Jerry were doing all kinds of analysis with her program and she sent in our first pick, but because we were eighth, we had to immediately pick our second ally. Within seconds Karen and Jerry signaled in the third team that would give #1 alliance and the vomitsaurus (meant in a loving way! It does regurgitate in a rush) from Sierra Vista it's only loss. Scouting made the difference because we had data about the strengths and possible weak points of the #1 seed and chose allies to exploit their possible vulnerabilities. However, no strategy could overcome some most fantastic robots!

PICgnosis

25-03-2009, 18:48

gwytheyrn

25-03-2009, 22:59

...may not be used by team members during a Match per Rule...
Really, regardless of what the FTC rules are (what did t22 read as anyways. I can't seem to find it), you should ask the event staff or at least someone who's helping to run things if it's "legal." Okay, so it does pretty much say that you shouldn't in team update 12-13, but it's up to the event staff as to how the ruling will be interpreted. I say if the crew says okay, go for it though :]

Anne Shade

26-03-2009, 08:33

The question has been posted to the Q&A but no answer yet.

Stealth

28-03-2009, 02:19

Used at the Sacramento Regional. No one asked and it worked perfectly!

The analyzer app could use some more stat viewing features, and if it could pull some stuff from the inter net that would be even better.

Great job and I highly recommend this to anyone looking for a scouting system.

pitzoid

28-03-2009, 13:13

Let's just say it won them the Judge's Award on Friday afternoon ;)

Well, I'll just say I'm one of the judges that gave 842 the award and I'm the guy that designed the FRC field radio system.

Bluetooth is not an issue to field systems, its a very low power system (<30ft range) and is frequency compliant in working with WIFI systems. So the 842 system is IMHO fine to use at competitions. The way I read the GDC comments are that they are more concerned about phones that have wifi, I have a newer IPhone and it has wifi, leave the wifi off in phones at competitions. The new robot radio system is being characterized for the first time in the field environments this year. There was no other way to test other than just throw it out there. We were trying to reduce the varibles as much as possible. The system is working beyond expectations, there are some issues still with teams that don't understand RF principals, but those will be worked out eventually though shared information outlets such as CD.

And I've mentioned this before, the field uses BOTH 2.4 and 5 GHz radios. 5 GHz is dedicated to the robots.

THX :D

PICgnosis

28-03-2009, 15:34

The analyzer app could use some more stat viewing features, and if it could pull some stuff from the inter net that would be even better.

What did you have in mind? We might be able to throw it in before the Championship.

Also, you can copy data from any of the datatables. Just click and drag over it with your mouse and copy it using ctrl-c then paste it into a text file and open it in Excel.

Stealth

28-03-2009, 21:38

What did you have in mind? We might be able to throw it in before the Championship.

Also, you can copy data from any of the datatables. Just click and drag over it with your mouse and copy it using ctrl-c then paste it into a text file and open it in Excel.

Integration with the OPR Ranking would be nice. Also stuff like the shooter percentage, and average trailer fill level would be nice. Basically all of the stats viewable per match but in the rankings window and averages.

Too bad other teams didn't use this, Sac Regional definitely could improve on their scouting. I believe we were one of the only teams downloading the OPR data at the end of the qualifying and we were the only one using this program. However what information we gathered we tried to share with other teams and they all said this system was a really good idea.

Anders Horn

29-03-2009, 19:00

Wiimotes work great until they run out of batteries. They also have the benefit that you get timing data in addition to plain numerical.

Joe Ross

30-03-2009, 16:20

The following Q/A Answer confirms that bluetooth is legal within the stands: http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=12484

MrForbes

30-03-2009, 16:22

Thanks for the link Joe, that's a sensible answer from the GDC :)

Anne Shade

02-04-2009, 08:18

Question asked and answered on Q&A (http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=12484):

Local-proximity Bluetooth communications used within the stands (i.e. not between the stands and the arena) is permitted.

falconmaster

02-04-2009, 17:49

Who is planning on using the wiimote scouting system at the Championships?

Anne Shade

03-04-2009, 08:39

Team 2377 is planning to use the system at Championship. It worked great during the Chesapeake regional!

PICgnosis

04-04-2009, 20:33

Hi, everyone.

Rev 1.0.0.2 of the Scout DB Analyzer is now available at www.nventivity.com/scout2.htm. The Rankings screen now includes up/down and column-order sortable averages for all the raw data by team.

NOTE: You do NOT need to update the Wiimote Scout program since the structure of the database hasn't changed. That is, we're still on rev 1.0.0.1 of WiimoteScout.zip. Next year, we'll add an About window to both programs where we will display rev information.

Cow Bell Solo

04-04-2009, 21:07

thanks for posting this and making it available online to other teams. We used your system at the Minnesota North Star Regional and it worked great, plus we had kids fighting over on who wanted to do scouting this year, all because they found it fun and interesting to do. Once again thanks.

falconmaster

04-04-2009, 22:32

We call this interest in the wiimote scout as
Reverse Game Play, normally you hit a button and something happens, now something happens and then you hit a button!

falconmaster

04-04-2009, 22:33

Team 2377 is planning to use the system at Championship. It worked great during the Chesapeake regional!

We will look for you! We want to see it in action when its not us!

PICgnosis

08-04-2009, 19:29

Hi, everyone.

This afternoon, one of our diligent beta testers brought to my attention an error in the Scout Database Analyzer 1.0.0.2 Rankings table data format. Values were being displayed in string format rather than numerical format, so sorting placed the values in ASCII order, not numerical order. For example, the array {1, 3, 11, 2, 10} was being sorted into {1, 10, 11, 2, 3} instead of {1, 2, 3, 10, 11}.

The issue has been resolved in Wiimote Scout Analyzer version 1.0.0.3 which is now available at www.nventivity.com/scout2.htm. You do NOT need to update the Wiimote Scout data entry program since the structure of the database hasn't changed.

:) THANK YOU, Team 180! :)

hayleybayley217

08-04-2009, 19:33

The ThunderChickens have used this at times in our competitions. We used it specifically at the State Championship, along with our scouting sheets. It works amazing. Its a good way to keep data together and it basically has everything already put together for you. Thanks you guys

nahstobor

08-04-2009, 20:32

any recommendations on a bluetooth adapter?

Anne Shade

09-04-2009, 08:19

We will look for you! We want to see it in action when its not us!

You won't have far to look since we'll both be in the same division! Just look for the team in the red and black polo shirts.

Warren Boudreau

09-04-2009, 09:11

any recommendations on a bluetooth adapter?

I had to pick up a new one from Office Depot. Look for one that advertises to link to seven devices at a time. The Bluetooth adapter that comes in the FTC kits (an obvious choice for those who have one) only links up 5 devices. Do not use the drivers that come with the dongle, though. Download the earlier versions that are referenced earlier in this thread.

MrForbes

21-04-2009, 02:18

How did it work? I know 180 used the system, and I saw 842's data....

anyways, here's a picture of Karen doublegeeking, which I promised I'd post so the world can see she takes computers seriously, one isn't enough. Her had says "wii scouting team" too

PICgnosis

15-01-2010, 15:10

Jim, thanks for sharing the picture.

I picked up my wiimotes from the AZ Science Center today and will soon be developing code for Breakaway 2010. I received several great suggestions last year and plan to implement these in this year's software.

New features will include importation of match data (and possibly images) from www.thebluealliance.net, a robot image database, and printable strategy sheets with team stats and a field diagram.

We hope to have the first rev out in the last week of February.

We're still building our parameter list and hope to share that soon.

PICgnosis

17-01-2010, 23:21

Following is a first cut at our wiimote scouting parameter list.

Setup Mode
Team number
Robot starting position {Near, Mid, Far}

Autonomous Mode
Near zone shooting {# shot}
Middle zone shooting {# shot}
Far zone shooting {# shot}
Near zone scoring {# in}
Middle zone scoring {# in}
Far zone scoring {# in}
Over bump {# times}
Upside-down {# times}
Through tunnel {# times}
Spectacular {extra special performance flag}

Teleop Mode
Near zone shooting {# shot}
Middle zone shooting {# shot}
Far zone shooting {# shot}
Near zone scoring {# in}
Middle zone scoring {# in}
Far zone scoring {# in}
Ball re-entry control {# successful}
Defended tunnel {# times}
Defended bot {# times}
Defended goal {# times}
Over bump {# times}
Upside-down {# times}
Through tunnel {# times}
Spectacular {extra special performance flag}

Finale Mode
Near zone shooting {# shot}
Middle zone shooting {# shot}
Far zone shooting {# shot}
Near zone scoring {# in}
Middle zone scoring {# in}
Far zone scoring {# in}
Ball re-entry control {# successful}
Defended tunnel {# times}
Defended bot {# times}
Defended goal {# times}
Over bump {# times}
Upside-down {# times}
Through tunnel {# times}
Platform options {above platform, hanging from bar, hanging from bot}
Spectacular {extra special performance flag}

I've also attached a jpg of the wiimote button assignments for each mode. (Most, but not all are shown.) All actions will also be timestamped and recorded in a timeline database which is used to generate graphs of match activity.

Feedback is welcome. Screen shots will be posted soon.

PICgnosis

28-01-2010, 11:27

Hi, all.

Attached are screenshots of our 2010 Breakaway wiimote scouting program. Below is a brief summary of the info collected on each screen. It's the same as above, with the addition of penalities and merged Teleop and Endgame regular gameplay.

Setup
Team number
Robot field position

Autonomous
Near, middle, and far zone # shot and # made
Passage over bump and through tunnel
Upside-down
Spectacular

Teleop
Near, middle, and far zone # shot and # made
Passage over bump and through tunnel
Upside-down
Number of times defended tunnel, bot, goal
Number of successful ball reentry control (BRC) maneuvers
Spectacular

Endgame
# Penalties
Final robot position
Spectacular

All actions are also time-stamped.

Some wiimote button assignments shown in Rev 0 have changed. Updated button assignments will be posted shortly.

PICgnosis

28-01-2010, 11:35

(cont'd)

Attached are screenshots of Spectacular and Upsidedown modes.

Spectacular mode "gongs" when activated, then turns the onscreen text gold. (I'll add a checkbox to toggle the gong, just to be courteous. :D) There are separate Auton, Teleop, and Endgame Spectacular flags.

When the Upsidedown flag is triggered, the points are greyed and the bump icon turns into an upsidedown buggy. No points can be entered until the flag is cleared. Upsidedown mode can be toggled in Auton and Teleop periods (and carries over).

This is too much fun!

Chris is me

28-01-2010, 11:43

Looks like there's be something else I really want to borrow from 842 this year. :D

Thanks for making this available. Has nearly every metric I want.

Anne Shade

28-01-2010, 12:25

Looking good. How about bots hanging from other bots? How will that be tracked?

PICgnosis

28-01-2010, 12:53

Looking good. How about bots hanging from other bots? How will that be tracked?

Hi, Anne. :)

It's on the Endgame screen. It's the top item in the Final Position group box ('Hanging from bot').

MrForbes

28-01-2010, 12:58

This is too much fun!

yeah, and Kevin can't resist either!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbV2O9FMHLM

AndyH

30-01-2010, 12:43

Is this already available? If so, where can I download it? If not, when will it be posted?

Thanks,
Team 1098

Refresh

30-01-2010, 12:57

yeah, and Kevin can't resist either!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbV2O9FMHLM

oh my god! that is amazing!!!! And so is the wiimote scouting system!

And what are spectacular mode and upside down mode for?

PICgnosis

02-02-2010, 13:12

Hi, everyone.

I am ALMOST done with the wiimote scouting software. I still need to add a few of the features that people have requested, but I will be putting out an early release this weekend.

You can view screenshots of the Wiimote Data Entry program and DB Analyzer here: http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/album.php?aid=2032731&id=1413835675&ref=nf.

Thank you for your feedback.

PICgnosis

08-02-2010, 00:16

Hi, everyone.

The early release of the 2010 Breakaway wiimote scouting software is now available for download. The Wiimote Scout data entry program is located at www.nventivity.com/wiimotescout2010.zip and the Wiimote Scout DB Analyzer program is located at www.nventivity.com/wiimotescoutanalyzer2010.zip. The updated wiimote button assignments can be found at www.nventivity.com/Scout2_Instr.pdf.

The software has the ability to import robot images and match lists directly from www.thebluealliance.net. Just follow the event links and press the buttons for "Click here for match listings" and "Click here to view teams attending" to get to the appropriate URLs. (At this time, the 2010 match listings and robot images are not available. but you can use the 2009 match listings and robot images to see how this feature will work.) You can add missing robot images to the image database and view them on the Setup screen by pressing the Home button. Once imported, team numbers are automatically filled in, too.

The Rankings table in the DB Analyzer program includes a custom weighting function that allows you to assign points for any of the tracked parameters. Custom graphs provide weighted performance sorted by rank and by team number. A printable strategy sheet with robot motion and shooting summaries and a field map is also included.

Please let me know if you find any bugs. I wanted to release it quickly so that there would be plenty of time to practice. :D

Dancin103

08-02-2010, 00:24

Don't the wiimotes fit under this?

http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles/Team%20Update%2012.pdf

Didn't they take this out in team update 8? Sorry if I'm wrong about this.

Cass

Chris is me

08-02-2010, 00:32

Wiimotes use Bluetooth, not 802.11a/b/g/n communication.

This is the coolest software ever. Thank you so much.

PICgnosis

08-02-2010, 00:52

Attached are samle screen shots of the match list and robot image database tables and the Setup screen.

Team numbers are automatically pulled from the Match List table and you can view an image of the robot you're scouting by pressing the Home button on the Setup screen. (Data from 2009 is shown since 2010 match lists and robot images are not yet available.)

Daniel_LaFleur

11-02-2010, 08:50

Wiimotes use Bluetooth, not 802.11a/b/g/n communication.

This is the coolest software ever. Thank you so much.

• Robots may be operated via wireless control only on the competition fields; and
• Two-way radios or other form of wireless communications are not allowed (with the exception of the previous bullet).

Where does it state anything about 802.11a/b/g/n?

Seems to me that using this is a blatent direct violation of the rules and should get a team DQ'd (knowing and willful disreguard for the rule).

Wetzel

11-02-2010, 09:10

Where does it state anything about 802.11a/b/g/n?

Seems to me that using this is a blatent direct violation of the rules and should get a team DQ'd (knowing and willful disreguard for the rule).

Team update #8 for 2010 has made this legal. The update #12 referenced earlier is from 2009. Be careful what you are looking at!

• Teams are not allowed to set up their own 802.11a/b/g/n (2.4GHz or 5GHz) wireless communication (access points or ad-hoc networks) in the venue.
Two-way radios or other form of wireless communications are not allowed (with the exception of the previous bullet).

Wetzel

Daniel_LaFleur

11-02-2010, 09:22

Team update #8 for 2010 has made this legal. The update #12 referenced earlier is from 2009. Be careful what you are looking at!

Wetzel

Actually I pulled that from the 2010 rules (Pre update 8 :rolleyes: ).

Thanks for the clarification. Now that I know it's legal, I might just look to see how good it will be.

Core2idiot

13-02-2010, 17:06

360skier

13-02-2010, 17:22

Okay, I have been playing with the 2010 Wiimote scouting program. first of all I have problems installing the driver for the wiimote on windows 7 on a Macbook (Late 2009) (I am using built in BT) It says that the device cannot start (but that doesn't always happen) When I do manage to get the driver to install I can't figure out how to save the data and also the arrow keys don't seem to work 100% of the time which is weird. Thanks, Core2idiot

Bluetooth drivers are rather hit-and-miss; not all devices and drivers will work nicely with each other. For information on various drivers and how they work with the Wiimote, I'd take a look at this site:
http://www.kudzuworld.com/blogs/Tech/20070817A.en.aspx

You can also find a list of Bluetooth adapters and what kind of drivers they have on the Wii home-brew wiki: http://wiibrew.org/wiki/List_of_Working_Bluetooth_Devices

Hope this helps,
Eric

EDIT: I've used the Cirago BTA-3210 with the Toshiba stack (included with the device) with success under XP. It's possible that it might work on 7, but it hasn't been tested. I'd recommend looking for a device on the aforementioned wiki that's been proven to work on Windows 7.

brianelite

13-02-2010, 17:52

Are you going to release the source?

Core2idiot

13-02-2010, 18:14

Bluetooth drivers are rather hit-and-miss; not all devices and drivers will work nicely with each other. For information on various drivers and how they work with the Wiimote, I'd take a look at this site:
http://www.kudzuworld.com/blogs/Tech/20070817A.en.aspx

You can also find a list of Bluetooth adapters and what kind of drivers they have on the Wii home-brew wiki: http://wiibrew.org/wiki/List_of_Working_Bluetooth_Devices

Hope this helps,
Eric

EDIT: I've used the Cirago BTA-3210 with the Toshiba stack (included with the device) with success under XP. It's possible that it might work on 7, but it hasn't been tested. I'd recommend looking for a device on the aforementioned wiki that's been proven to work on Windows 7.
Well I took a look at the wiki and it said Apple computers - all internal Bluetooth Cards in (MacBook, Mac Mini, iMac, etc.) under working so... Also I downloaded the toshiba Stack and it Would not find my BT card. Also I tried WIDCOMM, as I looked it up and The bluetooth chipset I have is a broadcom that shares a chip with my wifi card. another thing I tried was the apple bootcamp drivers they worked the best out of any of them, but then it would not connect again after "first" pair
And last but not least I second the request of the source
Thanks Core2Idiot

gblake

13-02-2010, 19:58

Folks,

This is a duplicate of a post I just put into another thread about scouting - If you already saw the other one, you can skip this one.

I'm curious if anyone has tried using the 5th Gear Simulator as a way to test drive their scouting metrics or their scouting recording keeping tools/methods, or their scouts (the humans)?

Imagine this:

Install 5th Gear on enough computers for 6-player matches.
Have 12 of your team members pick a simulated robot and stick with that choice.
Run the 12 players through several 3 vs 3 qualifying matches while the scouts use your team's scouting tools/metrics.
At the end of the quals see if you have successfully identified the best player-plus-simulated-robot combinations and can agree on their rankings and/or suitability for allying with one another.
If you are in the mood, do a draft and see how the resulting alliances fare against one another.

5th Gear stores matches and lets you replay them (in the sense of reviewing them), so if scouts are missing important observations, replays can be used to train them; or if scouts are disagreeing about how to evaluate a robot/driver's performance they can look at the replay together and try to reach a consensus.

Finally, while I think this can be a great way to evaluate scouts, metrics and tools, a word of caution is apropos. Remember that a simulation is not reality. At best it is an useful approximation of important aspects of a match and leaves out others. For example, 5th Gear doesn't simulate what happens when a harried pit crew forgets to install a fully charged battery, or when a weak axle or weld bend or breaks under stress during an important match, or ...

Blake
PS: 5th Gear doesn't simulate end-of-game hanging/lifting. To factor this into a scouting exercise; roll dice to see which robots that were in position at the end of a match should be given the bonus points (while the other bots continue to score regular points).
PPS: 5th Gear doesn't assess penalties. Assign a few people to referee duty and let them keep track of penalties if you want that level of realism. They can watch over the shoulders of the players and/o watch the server's monitor.

PICgnosis

15-02-2010, 20:19

Okay, I have been playing with the 2010 Wiimote scouting program. first of all I have problems installing the driver for the wiimote on windows 7 on a Macbook (Late 2009) (I am using built in BT) It says that the device cannot start (but that doesn't always happen) When I do manage to get the driver to install I can't figure out how to save the data and also the arrow keys don't seem to work 100% of the time which is weird. Thanks, Core2idiot

Having reliable BlueTooth connectivity is essential. The first section of README_ScoutDataEntry2010.txt is devoted to a discussion on different BlueTooth service managers. I've had the best luck with BlueSoleil, specifically version 2.7.0.35 - it works well with both XP and Vista. I haven't tried it with Windows 7.

Data entry instructions can be found here: http://www.nventivity.com/Scout2_Instr.pdf. Because we're using the same arrow keys to count shots and made shots, you have to tilt the wiimote to the left or right to differentiate betwen the two. There's a dead zone between them, so you have to tilt one way or the other.

For BRC (ball re-entry control), turn the "button-side" of the wiimote so that it's vertical (rotate about the long axis) and press the < button (in the orientation shown in the pdf).

To save match data, advance to the "Confirm Save" screen, hold the trigger and give the wiimote a firm shake.

Chris is me

15-02-2010, 21:35

It would be cool if you could use the LEDs on he Wiimotes as indicators as to whether or not they are tilted enough.

XaulZan11

15-02-2010, 22:43

It would be cool if you could use the LEDs on he Wiimotes as indicators as to whether or not they are tilted enough.

Yeah, that would be a nice improvement.

I wonder how many mistakes scouts make using these. The problem is that the scout may not know he made a mistake ("Did I tilt it enough?").

I think it would be interesting to video tape your robot driving for like 10 minutes and keep track of all the statistics using the Wiimote. Then compare the scouts numbers with the video evidence. If there is any significant difference between the scouts average and the actual number from the video evidence, I would be wary of using this system.

gblake

15-02-2010, 23:08

I think it would be interesting to video tape your robot driving for like 10 minutes and keep track of all the statistics using the Wiimote. Then compare the scouts numbers with the video evidence. If there is any significant difference between the scouts average and the actual number from the video evidence, I would be wary of using this system.Or use the simulator I described in post #75 to approximate a real robot or match - The simulator records matches for later reviews.

XaulZan11

15-02-2010, 23:11

Or use the simulator I described in post #75 to approximate a real robot or match - The simulator records matches for later reviews.

Very true. That would actually work a lot better.

When I saw that 'gblake' was the last poster, I thought, "I'm sure he's is going to propose using 5th Gear...why didn't I think of that...". And sure enough, I was right. :cool:

PICgnosis

02-03-2010, 01:48

Hi, everyone.

Thank you for your feature requests. Rev 1.0.0.1 of the Wiimote Data Entry software is now available at www.nventivity.com/wiimotescout2010_R1.0.0.1.zip. No changes were made to the DB Analyzer.

Included in this release is a Tilt Indicator which may be enabled via a checkbox at the top of the screen. This feature is, by default, left off because the additional monitoring and feedback reduces the responsiveness to user input. It isn't much, but it is noticeable.

When enabled, LED tilt indicators work in Autonomous and Teleop Modes. LEDs 1 and 2 turn on in when tilted enough to the left to record Near, Middle, and Far shots. LEDs 3 and 4 turn on when tilted sufficiently to the right to record Near, Middle, and Far goals. In Teleop mode, all LEDs light when tilted up enough to record ball re-entry control.

A request was also made for compatibility with 1024 x 768 resolution so Rev 1.0.0.1 includes additional support for this display size.

Good luck to all teams at the upcoming regionals!

jbbjjbt

28-03-2010, 07:55

Hi,
I saw this scouting system in action at the Virginia Regional and would like to try it at the North Carolina Regional. Does anyone have a database from the Va regional they would be willing to share?

I have downloaded the files and am able to attach a wii remote.

I would like to enter match information so I can play around with the system. I have not been able to do so. The files at the blue alliance have results in them, should they still upload?

Also I tried entering data by hand, but it doesn't stay.

So the only thing I have bee able to do is enter match and team numbers from the wii remote, do I have to do that for each match from each remote?

Thanks,
Jon

jbbjjbt

10-02-2011, 14:29

Does anyone know if this system will be available for 2011?

PICgnosis

11-02-2011, 00:04

Yes, it will be available.

We have a list of parameters and would like to start a discussion on button assignments. I don't have the list in front of me - I can share it tomorrow morning.

Thanks for asking!

EagleEngineer

11-02-2011, 00:47

You guys get major props, this thing looks amazing. Hopefully we can use it at the Competitions we compete at. :eek: i can believe that you guys actually created this. :)

Chris is me

11-02-2011, 08:16

This is a great system that served 2791 well at our second regional last year.

This year I don't foresee us using it though, not because of any fault of the great software, but because for this game IMO the easiest way to scout is to have a paper representation of the scoring rack to draw on.

We'll see - this could make a GREAT system for scouting minibots. It's literally a stop watch. Click to start, click to stop.

tomy

11-02-2011, 08:19

This is a great scouting sheet good job you guys. Now you are going to make one for 2011?

PICgnosis

12-02-2011, 01:11

Okay, here's our working parameter list:

Setup
Team number
Robot field position

Autonomous
Attempted top
Attempted middle
Attempted bottom
Made
Spectacular

Teleop
Defended
Attempted top
Attempted middle
Attempted bottom
Made top
Made middle
Made bottom
Tipped over/idle
Spectacular

Endgame
Defended
Minibot deployed
Minibot reached top
Spectacular

Match end
# Penalties
Minibot place

All actions are time-stamped, so if minibot deployed and reached top are pressed in real time, we'll have an approximate time for the minibot to climb the pole.

We're thinking of keeping the same orientation as last year and using ^, >, and v for attempted top, middle, and bottom. Made top, middle, and bottom would be a combo of 2 + ^, >, and v. Tipped over/idle would be upside-down + 2 button.

Spectacular = trigger + hold vertical + pull down. Advance = A, previous screen = trigger + A. Other tentative button assignments will follow shortly.

Any suggestions on parameters and/or button assignments are welcome!

AndrewD

12-02-2011, 06:14

i was told that controlling the robot with wiimotes was a bad idea

It wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea...it just takes a bit of work.

stundt1

13-02-2011, 09:11

when would this be available for 2011?

stundt1

07-03-2011, 17:08

Will this be available for the 2011 season and when by?

PICgnosis

08-03-2011, 06:42

Hi, everyone.

The preliminary version of the wiimote scouting program (http://nventivity.com/wiimotescout2011.zip) and DB analyzer (http://nventivity.com/wiimotescoutanalyzer2011.zip) are available for download at www.nventivity.com/scout2.htm.

We encountered major setbacks with Afterglow wiimote controllers as well as Nintendo MotionPlus wiimote controllers. Brian Peek's WiimoteLib doesn't support these non-standard controllers robustly enough to keep 6 wiimotes connected (at least with BlueSoleil 2.7.0.35 and 8.0.338.0) We have yet to complete a match cycle with all 6 wiimotes, but I wanted to get the data entry program out there so that you can begin to test it.

Tomorrow (today, actually), we will finally have 6 standard wiimotes to confirm that the match data is correctly recorded for all 6 cells.

As far as operating systems go, we have successfully installed both the data entry and analysis programs on 32-bit Win XP and Vista. We will attempt a Windows 7 install in a few hours.

PICgnosis

08-03-2011, 07:10

Data entry program features:

Setup mode:
Team number
Robot starting position
Robot image

Autonomous mode:
Row attempted
# tubes made
Spectacular flag

Teleop mode:
# tubes attempted (by row)
# tubes made (by row)
# assists
# defensive manuevers
Upside down flag
Spectacular flag

Endgame mode:
Action {idle, defended, placed tubes, minibot deployed, reached top}
Minibot stopwatch
Minibot place
# penalties
Spectacular flag

All actions are also timestamped.

MrForbes

08-03-2011, 10:23

Once again you amaze us Karen....

but do get some sleep!
Today, 04:42 AM

stundt1

08-03-2011, 10:58

wow amazing looks really good thanks:) and good luck this year

PICgnosis

08-03-2011, 11:56

Thanks guys!

I have incredibly good news. It looks as though only the Afterglow wiimotes are evil. I successfully connected four standard wiimotes and two Nintendo MotionPlus wiimotes this morning. I returned to BlueSoleil 2.7.0.35 with the default IVT driver (6.0.12.56, dated 3/5/2007) because it's always worked for me in the past. I'm using a Cyber-Blue EDR 2.0 USB Bluetooth dongle on Win XP Pro SP3.

We still have to conquer Win 7, but this is an encouraging result.

I am not sure why the Afterglow wiimotes will not stay connected, but my advice is to stay away from them.

I verified that match data is correctly recorded for all six cells. However, I did find an error in the DB Analyzer program. The Timelines By Match graphs do not properly scale. I will fix this in the next day or so.

I'm just relieved that the latest Nintendo technology will still work. It's no fun being obsolete.

PICgnosis

09-03-2011, 00:47

Hi, all.

Today, we installed the Wiimote Scouting program on a Windows 7 (x64) OS. You have to install MS SQL Server 2005 Express first, then MS SQL SP3, then the Wiimote Scout 2011 software (http://www.nventivity.com/wiimotescout2011.zip).

Also, the new version of the DBAnalyzer, R1.0.0.1, includes Timelines by Match graphs. This update is located here (http://nventivity.com/wiimotescoutanalyzer2011_R1.0.0.1.zip).

Tomorrow, we'll generate some data and post DB Analyzer screenshots.

PICgnosis

12-03-2011, 03:52

Hi, all.

There is a new version of the Wiimote Scouting data entry program available. Rev 1.0.0.1 can be downloaded here (http://www.nventivity.com/wiimotescout2011_R1.0.0.1.zip).

What's new in this release:
1) Fixed array index out of bounds error on Blue 2 and Blue 3 Autonomous Made Shots
2) Made Blue Alliance robot position indexing consistent with Red Alliance robot position indexing.

Attached are screen shots from the DB Analysis program. (Just in case you're wondering, the data is not real.)

PICgnosis

18-03-2011, 02:25

Hi, again.

There is a new version of the Wiimote Scouting data entry program available. Rev 1.0.0.2 can be downloaded here (http://www.nventivity.com/wiimotescout2011_R1.0.0.2.zip).

What's new in this release:

1) Fixed Attempt/Made shortcut "wiimote crosstalk" indexing error

PICgnosis

24-03-2011, 02:30

Hi, everyone!

We used our wiimote scouting system last weekend at the Arizona Regional. Our scouts did a great job despite having to deal with no power in the stands. They used a 12V battery and an inverter to keep the laptop running.

We had no software glitches but the scouts forgot about the Stopwatch feature until Saturday morning so we only got a few minibot times. We used the scouting data for our alliance selections, supplemented by drive train data provided by team 330. The custom scaling filter helped us pick our third alliance partner, 2662, an autonomous scorer who could also defend and assist. Thank you, teams 330 and 2662, for the victory!

I've attached a few screen shots of our scouting data. Today, I improved both the data entry and analysis programs so that attempted and successful minibot deployments are represented independently on the pie charts.

Rev 1.0.0.3 of the Wiimote Scouting data entry program can be downloaded here (http://www.nventivity.com/wiimotescout2011_r1.0.0.3.zip).
Rev 1.0.0.2 of the DB Analyzer program can be downloaded here (http://www.nventivity.com/wiimotescoutanalyzer2011_r1.0.0.2.zip).

We look forward to seeing you in St. Louis!

PICgnosis

06-03-2012, 17:34

Hi, everyone.

It's time again for wiimote scouting! Here are the parameters we're tracking for 2012:

Setup
Team number
Robot field position (four positions)
Automatic match population (from thebluealliance.com events)
Images of robots (provided you enter them in the database)

Autonomous
Bridge action
Attempted top
Attempted middle
Attempted bottom
Made top
Made middle
Made bottom
Spectacular

Teleop
Attempted top
Attempted middle
Attempted bottom
Made top
Made middle
Made bottom
Defended
Assisted
Penalties
Tipped over/idle
Spectacular

Endgame
Balanced coop bridge
Attempted coop bridge
Balanced own bridge
Attempted own bridge
Defended
Shot balls
Idle
Number of robots balanced
Spectacular

All actions are time-stamped, making for nice graphs in the analysis program.

Same orientation as last year. ^, >, and v are used for attempted top, middle, and bottom. Made top, middle, and bottom are a combo of - and ^, >, and v. Tipped over/idle is upside-down controller + 2 button.

Spectacular = trigger + hold vertical + pull down. Advance = A, previous screen = trigger + A.

Screen shots, links, and other documentation will be provided shortly.

PICgnosis

06-03-2012, 19:34

http://www.nventivity.com/scout2_files/wiimoteScoutingAll_2012.jpg
Disclaimer: Simulated data!

tomy

06-03-2012, 19:44

When we be able to download it?

PICgnosis

06-03-2012, 19:45

http://www.nventivity.com/scout2_files/wiimoteRankings_2012.jpg
Disclaimer: Simulated data!

http://www.nventivity.com/scout2_files/wiimoteCustomPoints_2012.jpg
Disclaimer: Simulated data!

http://www.nventivity.com/scout2_files/wiimoteRobotTimelines_2012.jpg
Disclaimer: Simulated data!

http://www.nventivity.com/scout2_files/analyzer-strategysheet_2012.gif
Disclaimer: Simulated data!

PICgnosis

06-03-2012, 20:55

Here (http://www.nventivity.com/wiimotescout2012.zip) is the link for the data entry program

and here (http://www.nventivity.com/wiimotescoutanalyzer2012.zip) is the link for the data analysis program.

Website URL with more information to follow shortly.

PICgnosis

06-03-2012, 22:18

General information, screen shots, and download links for the 2012 wiimote scouting data entry and analysis programs are now available here (http://www.nventivity.com/scout2.htm).

If you have any comments, questions, or would like to report an issue, please message me!

Alan2338

07-03-2012, 19:22

How do you sync the remotes with your computer?

PICgnosis

07-03-2012, 21:51

The Wiimotes and computer communicate via Bluetooth. The process of pairing six Wiimotes to the computer is the trickiest part of the setup. Here's what we say in the ReadMe text included in the WiimoteScout2012.zip download:

I. BLUETOOTH CONNECTIVITY:

At least one and up to six Wiimotes need to be communicating with the laptop prior to running the wiimote scout data entry program. We have tried several different Bluetooth Service Managers, including the Microsoft Default Bluetooth Service for Win XP, BlueSoleil 2.7.0.35, and Widcomm 5.5.

We have experienced MUCH difficulty connecting the Afterglow wiimote and the Nintendo Wii Remote Plus with Wii MotionPlus. FOR BEST RESULTS, USE ONLY STANDARD WIIMOTE CONTROLLERS.

Microsoft Default Bluetooth Service:

We were only able to successfully connect up to four wiimotes, but could not simultaneously connect more than this without the first wiimotes dropping out.

BlueSoleil:

BlueSoleil software comes standard with many dongles. This was the case with our Class 2 Cyber-Blue Bluetooth 2.0 dongle from Evertek. BlueSoleil is nice because it automatically maintains the connection with the first four Wiimotes as communication is established with the last two. A higher level of patience and persistence are especially necessary for Wiimote #6, but eventually, it, too, will connect. BlueSoleil also offers a device history list, which allows you to search specifically for those devices you wish to connect.

We did experience some conflicts in the Win XP Device Manager when using BlueSoleil. This may or may not be an issue in Vista and Win 7. We made the mistake of connecting a seventh Wiimote and could not get rid of it by uninstalling it in the Device Manager or by removing it from the registry (a dangerous place to be). Ultimately, we had to uninstall BlueSoleil and reinstall it to correct the problem.

BlueSoleil 8, the latest version, does a good job of managing wiimotes and seems to work well with the Device Manager. It is compatible with Win XP, Vista, and Windows 7 and costs under $30.

Widcomm:

Widcomm software comes with several dongles, including those made by Rocketfish (Best Buy) and Targus (Office Depot). Widcomm 5.5 may not be compatible with the Wiimotes as this version of the software requires a Passkey for each device and the Wiimotes do not require the use of a Passkey. You may instead use Widcomm 4.4 with with a patch for two of the DLL's and two of the exe files using the Rocketfish dongle. These resources may be obtained at http://www.telusplanet.net/public/wladykad/. This site may also be very helpful: http://www.wiili.org/index.php/Compatible_Bluetooth_Devices.

Once you are able to get the first Wiimote to connect using Widcomm 4.4, it should not be difficult to get the remaining five connected. As with the MS Default Bluetooth Service, you may find that one or more Wiimotes drop out before you have gotten all of them connected. This is easily mitigated by continual button mashing. Once the program starts, this is not an issue.

With ANY Bluetooth software:

You will want to label each of the six Wiimotes with its device address so that you can connect them in an orderly fashion. With BlueSoleil, you are able to select these devices from the device history list. The arena will be filled with Bluetooth devices, so if you can, it is best to search for services from only these six devices, not from all available devices.

If you are using a Class 2 Bluetooth dongle, you will have to keep the Wiimotes within 10 m of the laptop. If you have a Class 1 Bluetooth device, your Wiimotes will be able to get much farther away (~ 100 m) before their signals drop out and cause a disruption in the data entry software.

NOTE: If one of the wiimotes drops out during data entry, this will bring all data collection to a grinding halt. You will have to stop the software to reconnect the device(s) for which service has stopped.

The more charged your wiimote batteries are, the easier they are to connect and stay connected!

Alan2338

08-03-2012, 23:10

"This version of SQL Server 2005 Express Edition (x86) is not supported for the current processor architecture."

what does this error mean? I ran the setup fine yesterday, but now it is saying this when i tried it again.

Does this SQL server support my OS (Windows7 64 bit)?

Thanks!

PICgnosis

09-03-2012, 01:02

Hi, Alan.

MS SQL Server 2005 Express is supported on x64 Win 7 in Windows On Windows (WOW).

Make sure MS SQL Server 2005 Express with SP4 (http://www.microsoft.com/download/en/details.aspx?id=184) is installed in the WOW64 directory, then install the Wiimote scouting software.

Let me know how it turns out.

autox_vette

09-03-2012, 08:44

I believe it was trying to install SP2 which was failing (from what I remember in the log file).

I downloaded the 2008 R2 version of the SQL software and installed it last night for Alan. Then the application launched successfully.

I'm not familiar with the WOW configuration so not sure if it was set up correctly or not (got pulled into it after original installation was done).

Kenton

PICgnosis

28-03-2012, 01:58

Hi, everyone.

New versions of the 2012 Wiimote Scout (http://nventivity.com/WiimoteScout2012_R1.0.0.1.zip) and Wiimote Scout DB Analyzer (http://www.nventivity.com/WiimoteScoutAnalyzer2012_R1.0.0.1.zip) programs are out.

Changes in Rev 1.0.0.1 include:

Fixed:
Recording errors in Autonomous "att" and "made" shot values

Added:
Counters for tracking Teleop barrier and bridge crossovers
Requires that # bots on bridge > 0 if "att" or "bal" is selected in Endgame
Error handling for Wiimote dropout allows recovery without restart
Home button added as alternative to accelerometer input (for spectacular & upside-down flags, advancing to next match)
Database version check on start-up
DB analysis functions for Teleop barrier and bridge crossings

Links to the new downloads and more information can be found on our Scout web page (http://www.nventivity.com/scout2.htm).