FIRST in Michigan Thoughts/Impressions

[Jim Meyer]

Now that it's over, I just wanted to post how well I thought FIRST in Michigan went. I really think this format will help get more teams involved.

My overall grade would be an A.

Things I liked:
- More local events - This saved us a lot of money by not having to pay for a hotel, and also meant less time away from family.
- Lower Cost - The district events are a real bargain compared to regular regionals. For me the pack in even more excitement in with the faster match pace and more intimate environment.
- Schedule - Check-in on Thursday evening with qualifying matches late morning Friday and Saturday morning. This significantly reduces our time away from School/Work.
- The Bag - This saved us so much hassle not having to deal with shipping our robot in a crate to each competition.
- 12 Qualifying Matches - It meant less time between matches, but after experiencing this format it was tough to go back to the old way. It was a real disappointment to only play 8 at the State Championship.
- Volunteers - The volunteers did a fantastic job putting on all of the district events I attended. Generally. they seemed to go smoother than the State Championship.

My only real complaints was that the State Championship wasn't more like the district events.
- With the higher team count at the State Championship, playing 12 matches is more difficult, but I think we should have started playing qualifying matches on Thursday afternoon. Extend the schedule a little later in the day and we could have all played 12 matches.
- The cost to attend Ypsilanti seems way out of line with the value we get from the district events.

My 2 cents

[Tom Line]

Actually, after going through a couple districts, I wonder if even the championships are going to measure up.

$6k for potentially 8 matches if you don't make elims...

I do have a point for improvement. Make the time on Thursday from 4 to 8. 6 to 10 is simply too late. Likewise, the time on Thursday needs to end at 7. We need to have a little time to enjoy being in a different place. With the current hours, you feel so jammed together that you don't have time to enjoy it.

[Btower]

I do have a point for improvement. Make the time on Thursday from 4 to 8. 6 to 10 is simply too late. Likewise, the time on Thursday needs to end at 7. We need to have a little time to enjoy being in a different place. With the current hours, you feel so jammed together that you don't have time to enjoy it.

Some of the timing was driven by venues, for instance at Troy we didn't get the gym until 2:30 on Thursday, when the last class ended. Based on the success at Troy this year this may be relaxed in the future.

There is also somewhat of a volunteer issue. Starting later enables kids to come after school and adults to lose one less day of work. For instance, I was able to get in 3 events for the lost work cost of about two standard regionals. Of course with the local economy in a tailspin this may not be an issue next year.

Cheers

[Enigma's puzzle]

I enjoyed the new system, although the fanfare we were used to wasnt what it was at the West Michign regionals we had attended previously, it was made up for eazily, in my mind, by having two competitions instead of 1 and more matches at a single competition.

I really like the idea of state championships even though we opted not to attend, I hope to in the future, and i think that this is a step forward for first growing and reaching out to new people previously not involved before.

[Paul Copioli]

The text below is what I sent to some people at FIRST HQ. Please note that I wrote this before the Michigan State Championship:

"I have a unique perspective on this "experiment" as I have been at a normal regional (Midwest) with my team as a participant, a volunteer at a Michigan District (Kettering), and a participant with my team at a Michigan District (Cass Tech).



To me, the experiment is a collection of smaller experiments that are grouped together in the Michigan pilot. I know that this thinking is consistent with what the FiM folks have been proposing for some time.



Let's look at them individually:



(1) Keep your robot - This is fantastic in my opinion. It may eventually eliminate the feeling that teams have regarding a second robot. Right now, I can tell you that teams who have a second robot have a distinct advantage to teams that do not. The “autonomous era” has brought us the practice robot. If the “keep your robot” rule exists next year, then my team will seriously consider not building a second robot. This will save teams time in the long run! The bag system, while a little unorthodox, is a pretty good system. It does rely heavily on GP. The one item I would like to see changed is that you must have another FIRST team sign you in and out. Right now you just need someone not directly associated with your team. It really forces the veterans in a region to help out the rookies. We helped three rookies that we normally would not have even known about, but we were extra concerned this year. This really is one item that can really help FRC have long term sustainable growth from a human resources point of view (as opposed to financial). The 8 hours you get with your robot because of no practice day (see #2 below) is beneficial because you are at your shop with your tools. Again, teams without resources need help from other local teams in this area but I have faith that the veteran teams can really step it up in this area. This small piece of the experiment can be implemented in 2010 independent of the district model and save FIRST a lot of money in drayage and shipping.



(2) Two day events (eliminate Thursday) – This item has saved me from taking off two extra days from work, which is big in today’s environment. Moving the awards to all on Saturday is a great move. It does make for a long Friday, but not taking off Thursday from work is great. Thursday load in starts at 6pm and teams bring their robot with their pit stuff. This worked way better than I expected. The pits were open until 9 (or 10)pm and teams got some practice in and some pit time. Kettering ran much better on Friday than Cass Tech, but attribute that to rookie regional syndrome as Kettering has run an off season event for several years. With that said, Cass Tech was 45 minutes ahead of schedule on Saturday and, in my opinion, will be one of the better districts for years to come (more on this later). This small piece of the experiment can also be implemented in 2010 independent of the district model.



(3) 12 Matches – This is related to #2 above and was the main contributor to the long Friday, but it was worth it. Forget about teams like mine (67, 469, 503, 1701, etc.), because we will play more matches by adding Regional events. This model is better for rookies who are ill prepared for their first event. There are several rookie and second year teams that did not make it out for their first 4 or 5 matches due to technical problems or inspection problems. This happened at Midwest and the two districts and was not isolated to the two districts. However, the teams that attended the district still had 7 or 8 more matches to go after they missed their first 4 or 5; at Midwest they only had 3 or 4. By simply rearranging the awards and making Friday slightly longer, Michigan was able to give each team 12 matches. This small piece of the experiment can also be implemented in 2010 independent of the district model.



(4) The District Model (2 reduced cost events) – This one is a bit tougher to expand for a couple of reasons that I will get into later. This relies heavily on the volunteers in the state / region, but it really works for Michigan. I can see other densely populated regions using it. California and the East coast come to mind. The good thing is that the other 3 items above do not depend on the district model to work. With that said, the district model is the future if we want to draw in more sustainable teams for FRC. Regionalizing the FIRST organization is a logical next step (boy, it sounds like discussions during the birth of our nation debating federal and state control … I digress) as getting local leadership to spearhead the district model is essential. For Michigan, we needed more events and we needed them at a lower cost. Two plays for the price of one will really help item 3 above as a team at Cass Tech was only able to attend match #12 as they had major issues. Now that they are going to a second district, they will get 12 plays. I guarantee this team will be back next year solely because of the “2 for 1” district model. Again, local leadership needs to be groomed and spearhead the district push but I really believe that some other regions will make the leap to the district model if given the option. I think if ground rules are set, then each region can be given a choice between standard and District structure. They can choose what works fro them.



Now about Cass Tech … it was one heck of a venue. They had volunteer coordinator issues early, but the amazing venue and atmosphere did not reduce the quality of event over a regular regional at all. The only thing missing was the fancy expensive lighting. The atmosphere was awesome. I truly believe you should come to one of the remaining events in Michigan. I strongly suggest you come to the Troy Athens district during week 5. You really must see this for yourself to have a true appreciation. I know that you are very busy, but there are plenty of us here who can help facilitate any special transportation needs you may have (picking up at airport, hotel accommodations, etc.). I think you will have a unique perspective based on your original vision of FIRST and can make much more educated comments on whether the district model is beneficial to FRC. I was skeptical at first, but now I am a believer."

[johnr]

I think this year was the best in the four years that i have been involved with First. Well, except for that double cap at an off-season. All the extra playing time was incredible and walking around the state championship with a silly grin on my face after the selections. All i could think to myself and tell people was," My god, 65 was the last pick,65! This is going to be good." I do agree that there should be some way to get 12 matches at states. Two other things, Kettering needs to rent bigger stands and any team attending a third event should not get another 8 hour open bag time. They already are getting acouple of days at a reduced cost and i think it would even things up abit.
Just think that in four years, if they keep the districts, you might say,"Back in my time we only got 8 matches." and the kids will just look at you like you were crazy.

[chinckley]

The bag system, while a little unorthodox, is a pretty good system. It does rely heavily on GP. The one item I would like to see changed is that you must have another FIRST team sign you in and out. Right now you just need someone not directly associated with your team. It really forces the veterans in a region to help out the rookies.

We would have an issue with that, in that our closest team was almost one hour away. It would be difficult to have someone drive out to open the bag and then come back to close it up or to even sit around. I do agree, I like the bags better than shipping though.

[IKE]

I have shared many of my thoughts in other threads.

Venues: I really like Paul's idea of allowing for optional Regional or District/Regional Championship. I think the district model is a good way of getting larger High Schools and small engineering schools involved. A huge percentage of Kettering students come from FIRST. By the way, I predict Cass Tech to become one of the premier venues for a Competition. The atmosphere was fantastic there.


Bagging: Bagging system was fantastic. It was actually kind of fun Running around the building trying to find someone to sign for the bag. It was also a useful practice to have an alotted time to work work on things. 8 hours when well organzied can go a long way. 8 hours when poorly thought out can leave you with a mess or moral dilema. To me this stresses the needs of planning and execution so much better than the Thursday scrambles ever did.

Rookies: Paul's right that this system actually helped us work with Rookie teams better. Usually we do a preseason presentation for Rookies and then throw them to the wolves (we would still anser emails and stuff). This year we were able to help two teams out a lot more. Both of those teams had really great Rookie seasons with both winning at least 1 Rookie Allstar, and one of the Rookies backed their way into a District Championship while the other was an Alliance captain at the State Championship.

State Championship: I had to watch this from a far, but the competition level there was excellent. It made this game fun to watch, even in the qualifying rounds. With so many good teams, all of the matches were extremely close. On paper who would have thought that the Quarter finals between 65, 217, and 67 against 2834, 33, an 68 would have been so close. Almost every match was within a Supercell. With 60+ teams, I don't know that they can get 12 matches in. That would require 120 matches. That is a lot. Some options could be to bring in weighted records from district events. Otherwise maybe push it to 10 matches. There is no need for an entire practice day. Maybe 1 round to make sure everybody is still compatible with the field, but not a whole day. Actually a robot parade to start things off instead of a practice match. My biggest concern with the State Championship, is the Value factor. I hope it doesn't suffer from too little play time relative to how much it costs. I know this factor kept several teams from attending this year. Now that the reality of only 24 of 64 teams playing in the elims, I fear a lot of teams that are good enough to qualify for States, but know they are not a top 24 will not attend unless it is more affordable.

Points System: Overall I think it is really good, but there are some concerns I would like to see addressed. With the exception of the WFFA, all other awards should have points. I understand that the culture awards are supposed to be worth more than points, but seriously get an award, you get some points. Otherwise I think it worked really well. It had a good blend of an exeptional weekend will qualify you for States and well as consistent good performance. Only allowing your first 2 events to count for points should stand.

Sustainability:
Looking through the numbers of the FIRST financials, and then applying some of those numbers, the gravity of some scary truths can be a bit overwhelming. Most teams are playing with donated budgets on fields that realy on donations at events that rely on donations. Kudos to the teams that earn their money via bake sales and car washes, but the fact remains that most teams are playing with other peoples money. This is going to be a real problem next year. A large portion of the FIRST budget comes from sponsors that are having a very rough year. Many of them have had to ask for money from the govenment (after their FIRST money had been doled out already). The FiM Pilot stresses value and it does a really good job of that. While a lot of people are concerned with the conversion from Steak to Hamburger, I say 2 juicy hamburgers are way better than no Steak at all. I know that I could Raise $5000 through fundraisers and small donations. Heck I could charge 30 kids $100 to be on the team and there is $3000. With the FiM model, I could run a team indefinitely playing 2 district events for $6K. Two events is enough to keep kids excited and inspired. 24+ matches is enough for them to learn what this thing is about. With the current FRC model where $7K might get you about 8 matches, I think I would have a hard time keeping a team going. I would then down convert the team to FTC, Vex, or maybe even try to bring a BEST district (cost about $30K for 12+ teams). This would compromise the goals of what I want to teach the kids, but would be better than a poor attempt at FRC. I don't think I will have to worry about any of this, because the District model solves these problems.

Other items under sustainability. The volunteer system of requiring a team sponsor volunteers is a great addition (is it still volunteering if it is mandatory?). OCCRA has done it for years. One possible change to that system for small teams could be that if they are under 10 students, they could get their volunteer credits in at another event if they are too short handed at the event they are playing at. Another possibility would be having parents put some time in. Either way.



Sponsorship: This is going to get some groans from the vetran teams, but I would like to see a change with the big sponsors. I don't see why a sponsor needs to give over $10K for the FiM Model. $5K for registration, $3500 for a robot, $1500 for incidentals. However, the extra funds I would like to see go towards a pool for States and the Championship. Qualify for States, here is your registration money, and $1000 for incidentals. Qualify for the Championship, here is registration and another $1000. Yes I know for many teams that $10K is not enought, but I helped a team this year that had a budget of about $6K. It can work. It made me ill to hear about teams that spent $80K or $100K in a single season. Most of that is travel, lodging and food for the team. The district model removes much of the need for that. I understand this is still and issue for remote teams, but with districts being significantly cheaper to run, they should be able to pop up everywhere.


FiM Overall: These people have done a really great job. Kudos to them for stepping out of the comfort zone of Status Quo and shaking things up. Don't let the clapping of hands and patting on the backs drown out the need for improvements. There are some very real issues that have come up and need to be sorted out. Fix these things and you will have a great new way of doing FRC.

National Rollout: So with the improvement I have seen in many of the Mi teams from this FiM model, the scariest thing is how awesome this could make some other areas. Mi was already a powerhouse for good teams. I joked around about this, but imagine how cool Wii FIRST could be turning Midwest into a Regional Championship and doing the district model with Wisconsin, Indiana, and Illinois (this got a chuckle from somone on 111). With MWR being the Championship, you could turn Wisconsin and Boilermaker into districts. With the extra funds, have our IRI friends do an inseason district as well as maybe an event at U of I Champagne Urbana, and maybe Rose Hulman or Tri-State (are they under a differnt name now?). Throw in a couple more districts and you have what could be the premier Regional in the country. California has the assets to follow the FiM model more directly. East Coast is primed for a set up like this. Texas has been a breeding ground for BEST. The FiM model could be what it needs to convert BEST teams over to FIRST. You get the picture. (For all those teams in Arkansas, we will let you guys hang out in MI if you want). Once most areas have districts, then the Regionals can flip back to being open to whoever has enough points (locals get priority to save on travel funds). Do 4 weeks of Districts, 2 weeks of Regional Championships, the "The Championship".

Editorial (stepping up on Soap Box):
For years now FRC has had Junior Varsity play level playing at Collegiate level productin events with Varsity Level play at the Championship at a Superbowl level event. This model scales the competition level very well with the cost to put on the competition. Sustainable sponsorship normally comes from producing something. The sports model produces entertainment. Most district events were only entertaining to FRC people just like most High School sports are only entertaining to the parents (there are exceptions). Watching States was truly exciting. Imagine if Nationals was made up of the top 24 teams from 13 Regional Championships. That worth the Pay Per View.

(Temporarily stepping down from Soap Box). Thanks.

[JackN]

When I initially heard about the District Events, I was really skeptical. The idea of holding events for cheaper costs seemed like a bad idea to me. But after attending five of the seven districts I think that I would say they were a great success. This season our team got to play 47 matches for $9500 where some teams paid $11000 for one regional and championship and will most like end with 20-25. Any system that allows me to play more matches for cheaper is something I can get behind. I do have a few event specific gripes, such as the seating at Kettering and the parking at the Traverse City, but on a whole every event was run smoothly and with few problems. I am very excited to see how the Cass Tech and Lansing events change and get better the next few years. I would like to see more matches at the State Championship, but that isn't necessary, the event itself is pretty great.

One unexpected side effect of the districts for me is how little of other regions I watched and studied this year. Give me a Michigan team and I can give you a pretty good summary of their abilities, but teams like 399, 254, 968, 148, 2056 and 121 I have not really seen.

Overall the FIRST in Michigan model is great and I would love to see it adopted in other regions. It makes the competitions closer to home and cheaper, both of which are good things. I am excited to see where they will add an event next year, but I am sure it will be great like all the others.

[EricH]

From the outside: I like this system a lot more than I did initially, especially if some of the proposed changes are made. It's got potential, and as has been said, some of the aspects involving shipping and such like could easily be translated to the whole FRC competition.

However, at least a couple of people have said that California is prime for the next part of the rollout. Sorry, but it isn't. There are 2 main clusters of teams: Silicon Valley-Sacramento and Los Angeles-San Diego. Each has 2 regionals at this time, and could support probably 4-5 districts. Those aren't the problem areas.

The problem areas are the central coast, the Central Valley, the northern part of the state, and the desert area between CA and NV. The central coast supports about 2-3 good teams and no other teams. The Central Valley does about the same. I'm not sure how many teams are in the large northern area of the state, but I'm fairly sure there aren't many. There are ways to deal with this, including starting more teams in those areas, but the fact remains that until a district gets into those areas, those teams have to travel several hours and stay overnight for each and every event, even their "home" events.

However, when you go to the desert, there are several teams there. Some of them prefer the Vegas Regional to the L.A. Regional, for example. Even some L.A. teams have that preference due to space (or lack thereof) at the L.A. regional. There isn't an easy solution. More space will help, but it probably won't be enough. You could include Vegas and have a couple of district events there, but then the AZ teams who go there effectively don't get a second event (there isn't another one closer than Denver or Texas or Oklahoma). So they don't like it. So you include AZ, and now you've got a huge "zone" with about a dozen or more district events. Where are you going to put the championship? You've got 6 regional venues to choose from and none are central...

I'm not saying that it couldn't be done fairly soon, I'm saying that there are still some bugs to work out before it happens, such as isolated team groups who are closer to other "zones". It's like the teams in the UP in MI. Solve that somehow, and you should be able to take the district model nationwide and have some "open" events that anyone can play in for cross-pollination.

[Doug G]

However, at least a couple of people have said that California is prime for the next part of the rollout. Sorry, but it isn't. There are 2 main clusters of teams: Silicon Valley-Sacramento and Los Angeles-San Diego. Each has 2 regionals at this time, and could support probably 4-5 districts. Those aren't the problem areas.

The problem areas are the central coast, the Central Valley, the northern part of the state, and the desert area between CA and NV. The central coast supports about 2-3 good teams and no other teams. The Central Valley does about the same. I'm not sure how many teams are in the large northern area of the state, but I'm fairly sure there aren't many. There are ways to deal with this, including starting more teams in those areas, but the fact remains that until a district gets into those areas, those teams have to travel several hours and stay overnight for each and every event, even their "home" events.


I too agree that CA can easily support 4-6 district events. 2 in NorCal, 2 in SoCal and 1-2 in between. Those teams in between may have to travel 4-6 hours to go to a district event will still find it more cost effective than traveling just as far to attend a regional event. One less day in a hotel and the money saved by the lower reg fee.

Also as a planning committee volunteer in Davis, we continue to struggle to get sponsorship money for that event, and next year will even be more difficult. Regionals cost upwards to $200k, district events can be held for considerably less. To me, the only question is where should the CA State Championship be held? Any SoCal/NorCal debators?

[Joe G.]

I would say New England would be prime for the "next step" of the districts. Extremely high team density. It would probably have to be over several states, just because they are so small. The current Manchester and Boston events could become districts, with Connecticut possibly being big enough to hold a double field New England Championship.

[Tom Line]

Both the West Michigan district and the Traverse city district had teams drive 4-6 hours to attend. That's certainly not to far to drive to a district when it costs you half as much to compete.

[BPetry234]

Is it really fair that Michigan teams can have so many more matches then non-Michigan teams? They have the option to attend 5 events: two districts, the State Championship, one regional, and the Championships. That is insane.

Not only that but with the 40 lbs weight rule for bringing in new parts a team can essentially completely rebuild their bot during the season. As matter of fact I saw several teams, not just from Michigan, do just that. You have 6 weeks to build a robot and that's it, but that is a discussion for another forum...

[Joe G.]

Is it really fair that Michigan teams can have so many more matches then non-Michigan teams? They have the option to attend 5 events: two districts, the State Championship, one regional, and the Championships. That is insane.

Absolutely not. That's why everyone seems to have liked the system for the most part, and wants it to be implemented elsewhere. :]

[BPetry234]

Absolutely not. That's why everyone seems to have liked the system for the most part, and wants it to be implemented elsewhere. :]

Yeah but look at from someone who isn't in Michigan. Thunder Chickens played in something like 90 matches. That double our number and we went to two regionals and ATL. Explain to me how that is fair. It would be awesome if every state was like that but it's not. Maybe teams shouldn't be able to go to a regional to make it fair. I don't know...

[SamC]

I'm not entirely sure if this question belongs here, but I didn't think the question required it's own thread. [Feel free to move it]

This is by no means a jab at the credibility of the Michigan teams competing, but as talk continues of expanding the district structure elsewhere I'm curious how one aspect of the modified(?) competition rules worked.

Obviously it's been known that teams had to "bag & zip-tie" their robots and bring them to their competition site. But how was this enforced? Was their some way of knowing/checking that a robot in fact stayed untouched between competitions? I assume FIRST instated some method of checking this beyond gracious professionalism, scouts honor, etc. such as unique/not-easily-reproducible ties or stickers that would make it known if the seal had been broken. But I wasn't too clear how that worked.

[Paul Copioli]

Thunder Chickens played in something like 90 matches.
It was 85 matches, but who is counting?;)

SamC,

The zip ties were extremely unique with recorded serial numbers printed on them. We had a limited amount of zip ties with the serial numbers pre-printed. You had to have someone not associated with your team sign a zip tie in and out. We primarily had 469 sign ours. When you got to a competition, only an inspector could open your bag and seal it up (at least witness the opening and sealing).

Paul

[Jack Jones]

Yeah but look at from someone who isn't in Michigan. Thunder Chickens played in something like 90 matches. That double our number and we went to two regionals and ATL. Explain to me how that is fair. It would be awesome if every state was like that but it's not. Maybe teams shouldn't be able to go to a regional to make it fair. I don't know...

Consider the rookies from your state whose season consisted of 11 matches each, which is 1/4 the number that Cyber Blue got to play. I can't explain to you how that is fair either. What I can tell you is that it's better to light a candle than curse the darkness.

[JVN]

Consider the rookies from your state whose season consisted of 11 matches each, which is 1/4 the number that Cyber Blue got to play. I can't explain to you how that is fair either. What I can tell you is that it's better to light candle than curse the darkness.

So there are two guys who are competing to solve a labyrinth.

The first guy pays $20 to enter the labyrinth. The labyrinth is big and scary and he doesn't like it very much. It is dark.

The second guy opens his wallet to pay to enter the labyrinth. Before he walks in, someone says "we're piloting this new program to make it easier on labyrinth solvers". They only charge him $18, and then hand him a candle...

I feel like the first guy, sometimes.

-John

[Alex Golec]

This twisted concept of "fair" truly irks me. Consider this:

There is a team ABC that has everything: collects sponsor money from corporate giants, builds beautiful robots - and practice robots, and dominates in competitions. We are jealous of them, right?

The teams that cry "unfair" and demand justice by doing everything short of tying one arm behind Team A's backs will not improve themselves. They seek to cripple team ABC and call it "fair."

The teams that see team A and ask "how can we achieve this?" will succeed. They will improve themselves and make themselves available to improve others.

Perhaps this comparison is not the best, or even valid, since team structure is (mostly) outside of FIRST's control, but the idea is the same: bringing everyone down to the lowest common denominator does not create growth.

Let's make the world more fair by growing the good elements of this system.

-Alex

[Cory]

This twisted concept of "fair" truly irks me. Consider this:

There is a team ABC that has everything: collects sponsor money from corporate giants, builds beautiful robots - and practice robots, and dominates in competitions. We are jealous of them, right?

The teams that cry "unfair" and demand justice by doing everything short of tying one arm behind Team A's backs will not improve themselves. They seek to cripple team ABC and call it "fair."

The teams that see team A and ask "how can we achieve this?" will succeed. They will improve themselves and make themselves available to improve others.

Perhaps this comparison is not the best, or even valid, since team structure is (mostly) outside of FIRST's control, but the idea is the same: bringing everyone down to the lowest common denominator does not create growth.

Let's make the world more fair by growing the good elements of this system.

-Alex

The difference here is those outside of Michigan cannot participate. We don't have the chance to pay $5000 for two events, instead of $10,000 for two events, regardless of how hard we try.

FIRST is making the rules, and we're all playing the same game, yet one group of people is playing with a different set of rules for a different price.

I don't like the districts very much, but I definitely wish we had gotten over twice the plays for half the money (Especially when you consider that not a single dime of the money you pay FIRST in registration fees actually covers the cost of a district/regional event).

[johnr]

Now that the PILOT program is done, when might we hear what next year will look like? Is there some sort of rough time line? I'm sure teams in michigan and across country would like to know what to expect as soon as possible.

[GaryVoshol]

Then Cory, you need to start a FiC. FiM was not a creation of FIRST, but of concerned people in Michigan who realized there was no opportunity for team growth in the state without a change in the way things were done. It was a way to figure out how to give Michigan teams the opportunity to attend events in their own state. The choice was to create another very expensive regional, or to come up with a new model. There were several reasons why teams from outside the state couldn't enter in this first PILOT year of the model.

The Pros:

More game play
Lower costs all around: Lower entrance fees, lower travel fees, lower costs for events, lower costs for robot shipping.
Less time lost from school and work
Better opportunities for rookie teams
Bagging/unbagging rules that replace a day in the pit with a day in your shop.
Exposure in the communities holding districts. In areas that would never get a regional this is especially important. It was apparent in Traverse City that the organizing committee made sure the community realized this was an event. It was covered by 2 tv stations; I met one man who drove 50 miles to see it because he saw the tv coverage. The mayor and members of the city council were there; one was MC for a day. They said half the city was involved in sponsorship, and I don't think they were exaggerating much.


The Cons:

Lack of cross-border teams. At our events we missed seeing our friends from ON, IL, IN, and lots of other places.
Some teams in far-flung areas still have to travel (in Michigan, the Upper Peninsula and the northern part of the Lower Peninsula). This gets back to the issue of fairness: life isn't fair if by fair you mean equal.
Bagging/unbagging rules that replace a day in the pit with a day in your shop. Yes I know that this was a pro as well. But not enough teams took full advantage of it. We have to get away from the idea that the last day of build season is the first day at the competition. Teams need to have ready-to-go robots in Feb, not March. Especially with the field connectivity issues that can't be solved until you get to the event, there were far too many teams not showing up for one of the few practice rounds, which resulted in robotless trailers in the first few rounds of competition.


The Hazards:

There are at least 3 things needed for a district model to work:

Concentration of teams (This is an issue in several areas of the country)
Concentration of volunteers (For example, MN has lots of teams, but they are mostly new. How many experienced volunteers do they have to fill key positions such as FTA, lead queuer, head ref, field supervisor?)
An organizing committee (FiM didn't just happen; it took the hard work of a lot of people. People who you have seen around for many years. People who have backups at their home teams so they can work with the committee without their teams folding.)

Some district events were run much better than others.
Some district venues are better suited than others. All had pros and cons. Some didn't have enough seating, others had a better arena than I've seen at regionals. Some had sub-par pits. Is there enough parking? Having some events in high schools presents unique challenges: how does the school keep running with all the visitors? One thing that didn't become apparent until at the events was getting the robots and carts through doorways: can the middle barrier be removed to allow a double-wide passage?


The Opportunities:

Many areas of the country could adopt a district model entirely, provided they have the 3 items of critical mass listed above. Areas that come to my mind are New England, New York/New Jersey, other areas of the Midwest, the Mid-Atlantic states, California (maybe N/S separately), maybe Texas with some surrounding states, maybe Ontario. Harder in the Plains, the Rockies, the Northwest, and the Southeast. Nearly impossible internationally and in places like Hawaii.
If several more district models were initiated, perhaps there could be cross-border registrations on a space-available basis. Teams could "visit" in other championship areas; teams in the fringes of their own championship area could apply to transfer to a closer or more accessable championship event.
Most importantly, there are many aspects that could be implemented immediately world-wide. Bagging vs shipping, make shipping optional. Cut down on full practice days, giving more time for more rounds of matches.


It remains to be seen what will happen to the district/championship model. Not all the data is in. Some people may have vehement opinions against it. But those who I spoke with were very supportive.

[Dan Petrovic]

I don't think it's any coincidence that four of the six teams in the finals on Einstein were from Michigan.

The fact that teams can go to more competitions for less money gives a huge advantage to those teams because they get much more exposure to the competition and are at their peak of performance.

[Dan Petrovic]

I don't think it's any coincidence that four of the six teams in the finals on Einstein were from Michigan.

The fact that teams can go to more competitions for less money gives a huge advantage to those teams because they get much more exposure to the competition and are at their peak of performance.

I think the district idea should spread to the rest of the country, but keep regionals going so that teams who want to travel to other places and meet new teams can still do that.

[The Lucas]

Obviously it's been known that teams had to "bag & zip-tie" their robots and bring them to their competition site. But how was this enforced? Was their some way of knowing/checking that a robot in fact stayed untouched between competitions? I assume FIRST instated some method of checking this beyond gracious professionalism, scouts honor, etc. such as unique/not-easily-reproducible ties or stickers that would make it known if the seal had been broken. But I wasn't too clear how that worked.

All the rules regarding the "bag & zip-tie" system are in the FiM supplement (http://www.firstinmichigan.org/filemgmt_data/files/Final%202009%20Supplement%20Rules%20with%20Forms.p df). To me, the only major advantage here is the 8 hour robot access period during the week of the event.

IMHO 8 hours in your own shop (broken up how you see fit) is much more useful than 12 hours in the pits during practice day. For any other teams it is a rules violation (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=597301&postcount=50) to work on your whole competition robot in your own shop. I am also not sure how <R36> (40Lbs limit for custom fab parts like withholding allowance) applies? (anyone from FiM want to enlighten me) I mean the rule specifically mentions parts brought to an event, so if you add them before an event do they count towards the limit?

As for the more matches for less money, I think a lot of credit has to go to all the FiM volunteers for their extra work to keep the costs down. Hopefully, observations from this program can help create a program that will keep the costs down and matches up in some of the less dense FRC areas.

[EricH]

The Opportunities:
Many areas of the country could adopt a district model entirely, provided they have the 3 items of critical mass listed above. Areas that come to my mind are New England, New York/New Jersey, other areas of the Midwest, the Mid-Atlantic states, California (maybe N/S separately), maybe Texas with some surrounding states, maybe Ontario. Harder in the Plains, the Rockies, the Northwest, and the Southeast. Nearly impossible internationally and in places like Hawaii.
If several more district models were initiated, perhaps there could be cross-border registrations on a space-available basis. Teams could "visit" in other championship areas; teams in the fringes of their own championship area could apply to transfer to a closer or more accessable championship event.
Most importantly, there are many aspects that could be implemented immediately world-wide. Bagging vs shipping, make shipping optional. Cut down on full practice days, giving more time for more rounds of matches.
Gary, you've already seen my take on putting a district system in CA. I'd have to agree on the bagging/shipping, etc.

Here's a thought, and maybe this could be implemented next year in MI: Should not enough teams register at a given district, instead of opening it up to MI teams to have a third event, open it up to "outside" teams to "visit" with, say, a week or two of "outside only" before "inside" teams can register. If it's a team with districts in their own area, and they choose to attend in a district in a different area, any points earned apply to their home area; otherwise, no points are earned. Just a crazy idea that maybe isn't so crazy.

[MattB703]

Gary, you've already seen my take on putting a district system in CA. I'd have to agree on the bagging/shipping, etc.

Here's a thought, and maybe this could be implemented next year in MI: Should not enough teams register at a given district, instead of opening it up to MI teams to have a third event, open it up to "outside" teams to "visit" with, say, a week or two of "outside only" before "inside" teams can register. ....

This is a great idea. I really missed the opertunity to play with visiting teams from Illinios, Indiana, Ohio, and Ontario.

[Raumiester2010]

This is a great idea. I really missed the opertunity to play with visiting teams from Illinios, Indiana, Ohio, and Ontario.

I agree... i missed seeing 1114 at Yippsi (GLR) (yes i will still keep calling it that) and many other of our buddies from over the borders such as the first Chile team. I was bummed about how we only got to see some of our buddy teams at Atlanta and even then they where in different divisions.

I hope that this district program will spread because it is an excellent opportunity for teams to get more playing time with their robots (the reason most of us do this for), it makes competition much more stiff.

[johnr]

After looking at this http://www.firstinmichigan.org/filemgmt_data/files/1%20presentation%20FINAL.pdf i am alittle surprized at the cass tech expenses and wondering what the plans are for the fields.

[Nate Smith]

After looking at this http://www.firstinmichigan.org/filemgmt_data/files/1%20presentation%20FINAL.pdf i am alittle surprized at the cass tech expenses and wondering what the plans are for the fields.


I would guess that the plan is the same as what FIRST does with their fields...hang onto them in storage(somewhere), and retrofit them for next year...

[Wayne TenBrink]

Excellent presentation on FiM.

Regarding to the requirement for teams to provide volunteers - It would be nice if teams could fulfill their requirement by providing volunteers at district events where we are NOT participating. Is there anything that would prevent us from doing that in addition to the requirement?

The NC Gears are big fans of FiM. Having the chance to play a lot of matches at several events was very helpful in building our sense of team spirit and motivating the students to take our team to the next level (hey, we even have a website now!). I can't imagine going back to the old system, and I hope that everyone has the same opportunity in the future.

As mentioned in earlier posts, so much of what is good about the FiM model (bagging, 2-day events, smaller & more numerous venues, more matches per event, etc.) could be applied to the rest of FIRST even without a regional structure or "championship" event. If people want fairness, try to achieve it by raising the standard for all, not restricting those who have found a better way.

Thanks again to all those who made this possible.

[Ian Curtis]

Wow! I did not realize FiM saved so much money. IIRC, a traditional regional costs about $200K (is this figure right?). If so, all 7 FiM events cost less than 1 regional...

Which means FiM reduces the cost per match by close to a factor of 10!? :eek:

[johnr]

Actually i would imagine one of the fields used for local off season events. Now the other one could be placed in one of our many empty factories and open to the public(teams) on saturdays for open play. Charge alittle to raise money for FiM,add a snackbar and some laser tag or sometthing. Put it somewhere central to all teams and add new fields each year. Welcome to FiM Land.

[Chief Pride]

I think FiM is great. All of this nonsense about fairness is just that, nonsense. For example, if the intent of FiM was to make Michigan teams better than out of state teams, with the same rules but a different goal, that would be unfair. Seeing as how that is not the goal, the goal is to be able to spread FIRST to more high schools, it seems to me that FiM is plenty fair.

[IKE]

Wow! I did not realize FiM saved so much money. IIRC, a traditional regional costs about $200K (is this figure right?). If so, all 7 FiM events cost less than 1 regional...

Which means FiM reduces the cost per match by close to a factor of 10!? :eek:

From what I understand, that was the plan all along. Take 3 regionals and do 7 districts and a championship for less than the cost of 2 regionals.

This is one of those success metrics by design. They designed the districts to cost less, delivered on their design, and thus met their metric. Similar with number of matches played and several other "metrics" . See an issue, measure it, analyze it, design a solution, do the analysis, get approval from management to implement solution, verify solution meets objectives. This process sounds oddly familiar.....

FiM good job meeting designed in metrics. With some fine tuning, and a few changes, it could, maybe, just might work...

[nikeairmancurry]

To comment on the the teams on Einstien, 67 was dominate fro mthe start they didnt need all the extra events to prove how good they were. The same for 217. They were both there last year two, so that just proves the quailty of machines and pratice outside of the events. Also they played on Einstien, agasint each other in 2005. And 217 was on Einstien in 2006. So really you can say they extra events really helped either team, seeing their succes from last 5 years.

If you would like to know how the other two teams got there, you probably would ahve to ask Paul, why he went after an all Michigan Allaince.

I don't remember where I heard this, I think it was at Cass Tech from a member of 33. It was that FiM was inthe works aournd the begining of the 2008 season, when there was projections that michigan wasn't gonig to be able to hold its usual 3 events. That and the opportunties to get some teams more playing time.

All in all, this system is great! We took a poll from all our vetern members and they say that this has been the best year ever. They enjoyed the smaller venues and more opportunties to show our stuff. I hope that other states could join in (Califorina, Minnasota, New England), and certian exceptions could be made for teams having to travel 14 hours (857 I beleive for Hougton).

Thanks to all Gail Albert and all of FiM Personal:)

[Chris Hibner]

Yeah but look at from someone who isn't in Michigan. Thunder Chickens played in something like 90 matches. That double our number and we went to two regionals and ATL. Explain to me how that is fair. It would be awesome if every state was like that but it's not. Maybe teams shouldn't be able to go to a regional to make it fair. I don't know...

Here's a good question: Would it have been fair to all of the Michigan teams if the pilot flopped and everyone got cheated out of an inspiring FIRST season?

There is a lot to be said about risk and reward. Doing this pilot program was a big risk for all of Michigan. It's nice to see that there was a little reward to go along with that risk.

[Sarah H]

Personally, I will admit I was not a fan of the fim program at the beginning of the season, but as it went on I began to like it more and more. I wouldn't say its not fair to other teams because if you think about it teams are aloud to go to as many regionals as they want, and have money for, and there's no one saying that those teams aren't being fair. I think that fim really prepares teams for the season ans eventually for nationals. Speaking from a team that does not have the materials to practice outside of the regionals, I think that it gives the drivers the practice they need to become world class teams. I also think that the state competition really repaired teams for what to expect in Atlanta. now on top of all these opportunities, It saves so much money, with the economy is looking worse and worse, this gives Michigan teams the hope that next year they will still be around, and that's very comforting especially to the students first impacts so strongly. I am not saying it is perfect yet, there are some changes that can be made for the better, but I really have no complaints about the programs. fim ran quite smoothly in its first season, and as far as other states go, I have heard a lot of talk about teams wanting it in their area.

Thats just my opinion as a 3 year student from Michigan