Best 3rd Pick in Newton [Archive]

Justin

10-04-2009, 11:23

Alright everyone divisions are out people have surely dissected them by now so here's the question. What teams in Newton will get overlooked? I'm looking for maybe a great defensive team that will fly under the radar and end up as the number 1 or 2 alliances third pick?

What say you Newton Division?

-Justin

Good luck to everyone down in Hotlanta won't be making the trip this year but I'm sure it will be a good time.

JVN

10-04-2009, 11:37

Rob

10-04-2009, 12:05

I think that team 88 would make a great addition to an eliminations alliance in this division (providing they don't seed in the top 8 that is).

Tom Bottiglieri

10-04-2009, 12:38

Third pick, eh?

Koko Ed

10-04-2009, 13:24

Kind of a generalized question considering that every alliance may have a different need or preference. So what may work with 148 may not be what a 121 or a 1625 is looking for. There's alot of variables that go into picking that third team to work with that sometimes raw stats aren't going to bear out alone.

Zholl

10-04-2009, 13:39

Koko does have a point. You may have to wait and do your scouting at comp. For instance, my team has a relatively strong defensive bot and we did very well in our alliance at the Colorado regional, but our bot, strategy, or even our drivers may not click well with yours. It'd definitely be better to pay attention to the defensive designs in Newton and how they like to play. Perhaps even research which of the Newton bots look like good defensive players and watch the recordings of their matches if you're looking to do some pre-comp scouting.

Chris

10-04-2009, 13:50

I have to agree with Mr. Noonez

Just off the top of my head i find around 34 highly competitive scoring robots in Newton (in no particular order)

469
365
16
1726
1918
1038
135
121
1625
148
234
1507
1155
126
368
768
228
191
340
85
1657
1732
292
33
233
1714
2609
2996
2970
228
340
612
88
980

I would bet most alliances will pick a scoring robot with some defensive abilities, rather than a pure defensive robot. But i guess we'll all see in about a week. Should be a fun championship, it always is.!!!

But for the sake of argument if i had to pick the third pick i think will make the difference for some alliance I’d have to go with Team 85 (that is if they don't seed) They are always in the thick of it, they play smart, and are great to work with.

Koko Ed

10-04-2009, 13:55

I have to agree with Mr. Noonez

Just off the top of my head i find around 34 highly competitive scoring robots in Newton (in no particular order)

469
365
16
1726
1918
1038
135
121
1625
148
234
1507
1155
126
368
768
2907
228
191
340
612
85
1657
1732
292
33
233
1714
2609
2996
2907
228
191
340
612
88
980
1511

I would bet most alliances will pick a scoring robot with some defensive abilities, rather than a pure defensive robot. But i guess we'll all see in about a week. Should be a fun championship, it always is.!!!

But for the sake of argument if i had to pick the third pick i think will make the difference for some alliance I’d have to go with Team 85 (that is if they don't seed) They are always in the thick of it, they play smart, and are great to work with.
You wrote 191 twice (we must've made on heck of an impression on you :D )

nahstobor

10-04-2009, 13:57

You also put down 612 twice :)

Zholl

10-04-2009, 14:01

Off topic, but it's interesting how many people are posting while I'm still in school....

s_forbes

10-04-2009, 14:05

Lil' Lavery

10-04-2009, 14:06

And 2907 down twice. And 2907 isn't even in Newton. ;) 2970 is.
He also didn't include several others that could be on the fringe of being a elimination-worthy scoring machine:
102
122
620
832
2344

Or his own team:
177

MrForbes

10-04-2009, 14:09

heh...one of my kids just woke up, the other is still in bed, they have the day off from school.

thefro526

10-04-2009, 14:09

I'd say 612 is a diamond in the rough. They're definitely not a High level scorer by any means, but they sure as hell can play defense, run empty cells and follow (and devise) a strategy. There's something to say about a team that averages about 10 balls a match... But has only lost one Qualifying match so far. I'd pick them as a 3rd Robot... If they were in Curie.

Aren_Hill

10-04-2009, 14:16

We've thought about it, and after watching last year's championship matches again, we think team 148 would be a decent 2nd rounder.

Our plan is to hopefully grab 148 in the 2nd round

nahstobor

10-04-2009, 14:25

If for some odd reason 126 doesn't end up in that first group of 16, they are a STEAL for a 3rd pick.

The Lucas

10-04-2009, 14:33

The more I look at the Newton team list, the more I realize how many amazing teams are in our division. I think it's unlikely that there will be any robots picked purely for their defense... there are too many good teams that can play defense and score a bunch of moonrocks. We're going to have to work really hard to make it into eliminations.

I don't expect any "purely defensive" bots in the finals of any division not just Newton (although in my opinion the field left for the last overall pick in Newton will be better than the other divisions).

I think a handful of defenders will be picked (or even seed) across all divisions. Their alliances might even win in the QF, but to make the Elite Eight & earn a medal it takes more than just defense, you need scoring contributions (at least initial 7) from every member. Thats my prediction and I'm sticking with it (note: replacement bots don't count, b/c you can't pick them)

Justin

10-04-2009, 15:20

Good Stuff All...I realized as JVN pointed out that I didn't necessarily mean a purely defensive robot. I guess I'll just be honest and say maybe I should have asked who is the most "Bacon like" team in Newton LOL. Anyone who's wondering what's up that question should check out the finals of the Connecticut regional on TBA.

I believe and I'm sure many will debate but I think if you can put together an alliance of three amazing offensive robots and one or two of them happen to be really good at defense then you are on your way. Let's face it no matter how much the instinct might be to pin as a way of eliminating a really dominant bot from the alliance you can't pin all three robots. Well I suppose you could and you'd have quite the interesting stalemate/Human Player match on your hands LOL.

Have fun stay safe in Hotlanta,

Justin

rick.oliver

10-04-2009, 15:20

We've thought about it, and after watching last year's championship matches again, we think team 148 would be a decent 2nd rounder.

Our plan is to hopefully grab 148 in the 2nd round

Obviously you are joking. I've only seen 148 on video and webcasts and I mean no disrespect to any of the other Newton teams; however, I will be very surprized if 148 is available in the 2nd round of picking.

Aren_Hill

10-04-2009, 15:23

JaneYoung

10-04-2009, 15:27

Obviously you are joking. I've only seen 148 on video and webcasts and I mean no disrespect to any of the other Newton teams; however, I will be very surprized if 148 is available in the 2nd round of picking.

148 is a well-respected and solid team with a solid machine. It is my opinion that because of that, they have a target on their back. A big one. Knowing them, they are working with their strategy and other options that will make them a force to be reckoned with. I have no doubt. At Lone Star, their pit never lacked for visitors asking questions and admiring their robot and their team, in general. It was very cool.

EricH

10-04-2009, 15:28

It depends on who gets overlooked in the first of the two rounds.

gorrilla

10-04-2009, 15:29

It depends on who gets overlooked in the first of the two rounds.

theres always the 3 Florida teams:rolleyes:

Justin Montois

10-04-2009, 15:29

they slipped last year... why not this year? :p

HAHA. They are one of maybe 5 teams that I would pick first regardless of where they are ranked. :)

XaulZan11

10-04-2009, 15:35

I'm with JVN on this one; no purely defensive robot will be selected. I actually have a $5 bet with someone on my team that all teams selected withh have moonrock scoring ability. Alliance captians, don't let me down.

I think the ideal 3rd robot can score but also play very good defense. Hopefully they can score a couple while playing defense on the other alliance's best scorer. If the 3rd robot can cancel out the other alliance's top scorer, their alliance has a very good chance of advancing.

Alex Cormier

10-04-2009, 15:37

XaulZan11

10-04-2009, 15:43

I see and agree to a point. I think that you will see two very powerful robots and a robot that is powerful end up on Einstein. The third robot would be a normal 1st pick in many regionals.

Yeah, I guess is should clearify myself. The third robot won't just be defensive robot that can score 5-7 moonrocks, but a team that is capible of scoring around 15 a match. Instead of having them score the 15 moonrocks, I would have that team play defense on the top scorer while scoring around 7. I wouldn't want to leave a team like 1625, 121 or 148 undefended for a considereable portion of a match.

MrForbes

10-04-2009, 15:46

I expect to see "dynamic strategy"....not one robot assigned to a mostly defensive role.

It's gonna be wild!

Chris is me

10-04-2009, 15:50

I would bet most alliances will pick a scoring robot with some defensive abilities, rather than a pure defensive robot. But i guess we'll all see in about a week. Should be a fun championship, it always is.!!!

This is exactly what I'm trying to get our team to aim for in Newton. Our robot works defensively, we just haven't had the chance to show that off (broken drive code in Wisconsin, too busy scoring in Minnesota). For example, we've pinned Wave Robotics in a practice match before.

I'm hoping for our team that the RNG that determines alliance partners in qualifying matches pits us with teams like 148 and 1625 so that we can show off our defensive game a little and set up pins rather than just doing some scoring. Admittedly getting 20 balls in a match in Minnesota is a lot different than 20 balls in a match in Atlanta, and our scoring isn't going to be as effective there simply due to volume (and I probably owe the mentor that said it was going to come down to ball capacity $1 now).

Needless to say, I agree with your description of what a third pick will do. They will be able to score, and they will, but they are going to be the "expendable scorer"; often relegated to defensive play or emptycell conversion.

I wish 1986 was in our field as they would make a potentially game changing third pick with their 33 foot empty cell conversion throw.

Barry Bonzack

10-04-2009, 16:02

Newton
1. 1625, 234, 233
2. 148, 135, 1511
3. 126, 1155, 86
4. 365, 121, 1732
5. 1918, 469, 2970
6. 85, 1701, 1714
7. 1086, 88, 1726
8. 1038, 368, 832

1 2
\ 1 /
1-|-3
/ \
5 3

waialua359

10-04-2009, 16:08

Off topic, but it's interesting how many people are posting while I'm still in school....
Hawaii has no school today as Good Friday is a State Holiday. You mean to tell me that you have/had school? :p

Chris Fultz

10-04-2009, 16:14

Many (most) public schools do not have Good Friday as a holiday.

EricH

10-04-2009, 16:24

Many (most) public schools do not have Good Friday as a holiday.
My college does. I'm on break right now, otherwise I'd be in Differential Equations at this time. It's a public college.

Back on topic:

gorilla, there are always teams that people can't believe are still available. 65 in this year's MI Championship, 503 in the 2005 Championship, the list goes on. They may be a Florida team, they may be a North Dakota team, they may be international.

I'm going to refine my earlier statement:

The best 3rd pick in any division is the one that best fits the alliance strategy and was overlooked in the previous round of selection.

JVN

10-04-2009, 16:36

The best 3rd pick in any division is the one that best fits the alliance strategy and was overlooked in the previous round of selection.

Eric...
You are 100% correct, however you didn't really say anything.
The point of a thread like this is to have some fun and speculate about which team is going to be the surprise 3rd round "steal".

"The best robot at Championship is the one that is playing the best."
While 100% true, it is just silly to say something like that. Do you think it makes you seem smart?

Everyone knows that anyone can win and anything can happen on "Any Given Saturday". That is why we scout AT THE EVENT. No one actually makes their pick lists based on these threads.

I've been surprised this year at the number of people taking stuff like this so seriously. I don't mean to single you out. Your post wasn't bad, it just reminds me of the people who get all hot and bothered when someone says "1114 has a good machine and has a good chance of winning Archimedes". I hate it when someone feels the need to reply "Yes, they are good but anyone can win." OF COURSE ANYONE CAN WIN! However that doesn't mean we can't have fun speculating about which "greats" will come out on top.

I'm not going to speculate my "sleeper" because then they wouldn't be a sleeper anymore... ;)
Then again, whenever I tell our scouts "watch this team, they are my 3rd round sleeper" they usually end up seeding in the top 4. :rolleyes:

$.02
-John

JackN

10-04-2009, 17:04

It is funny that Aren is hoping that 148 slips to the 2nd round I am thinking that 148 might be thinking the same thing about 1625.

Honestly I think the best 2nd round pick is a team that can play strong defense, pin well, score a few and has a smart coach. I think teams like 33, 16, 177, and 862 would all be great 2nd round picks.

Lil' Lavery

10-04-2009, 17:09

Honestly I think the best 2nd round pick is a team that can play strong defense, pin well, score a few and has a smart coach. I think teams like 33, 16, 177, and 862 would all be great 2nd round picks.

I think someone didn't hear about what happened in St. Louis. ;)

rees2001

10-04-2009, 18:23

WOW,
Has anybody seen the horse because the cart already won the championship?

I think we are getting a little ahead of ourselves here. Nobody knows who will be ranked & where. I love the speculation but who is to say that 148 won't be picking 1625 & then whoever? I know a track record has been established but if any of you have been to Championship before you will know things don't always go according to plan.
I still think back to '04 when we were hoping to pick 67 & 1126 like we did in Buckeye. As it turns out our second pick from Buckeye picked us second... after picking 67 1st.

anybody remember 195 from '06 Newton? I do.

wannabchicken

10-04-2009, 18:40

1506 is looking much better as a 3rd pick now that they have added a hopper to hold more moon rocks. their drivers are pretty good at both offense and defence. keep an eye out for metal muscle, theyll be a great 3rd pick if they dont seed in the top 8

Mr. Lim

10-04-2009, 19:12

2609 will be a 2nd pick that will put an alliance over the top - possibly on to Einstein.

Their lack of ground pick-up scoring will turn a lot of alliance captains off - especially those alliances (#4-#8) that might want substantial moonrock scoring support from their 2nd pick. But top alliances take note: if these guys are still around on the way back of the serpentine, they'll win you a ton of matches. They'll score an initial 7 with ease, deliver empty cells, provide defense, and put their robot exactly where it's needed, when it needs to be there (a truly underrated skill in this game that doesn't always show up in the stats).

Despite being the #1 alliance captain at Waterloo, and picking 2056, and having the 2nd highest CCWM/Plus Minus to 2056 at that event, these guys will fly in under the radar at Atlanta. They're so low radar, I'd actually be concerned that they might miss elims altogether...

Chris Fultz

10-04-2009, 19:14

i hope the 3rd pick in the alliance 234 is in wins on Einstein :)

David Brinza

10-04-2009, 21:45

Isn't there something special about being the last pick in alliance selections? The drama is just incredible!! :ahh:

Zholl

10-04-2009, 22:07

Hawaii has no school today as Good Friday is a State Holiday. You mean to tell me that you have/had school? :p

Yes, I posted from the tech room during lunch earlier today. We don't get things like Good Friday off here in Colorado. We get next week off though. And you all know the reason :)

Isn't there something special about being the last pick in alliance selections? The drama is just incredible!!

Yes. Yes there is. That is exactly what happened to us in Colorado. Kept sitting there with the though "please pick us, please please please pick us," and then after debating it a couple minutes we were picked by 399 as the very last pick of the day.

So my question is how do you scout these teams at nationals to make this decision. I know to do pit scouting and watch the matches, but what is the best thing to be looking for in a more defensive bot?

Akash Rastogi

10-04-2009, 23:32

So my question is how do you scout these teams at nationals to make this decision. I know to do pit scouting and watch the matches, but what is the best thing to be looking for in a more defensive bot?

In Atlanta, a "defensive" bot may not be the best option for the other two alliance partners. Teams also love picking others who are known to work insanely well with others and contribute 100%. Such as 217, 67, and 65 at MSC. Driving skill for me is a big factor in alliance selection.

Chris is me

11-04-2009, 00:14

I personally if in a picking position would be slightly preferential to teams that I know our team works well with, like 2826 or 2470 or whomever we had a good qualifying match with. It's a shame neither of the above robots are on our field.

Of course, if a robot's outclassed, it's outclassed, but if there's two equally good robots (or roughly) at a scouting meeting I'm going to vote to put ahead the one that works better with us on the driver-to-driver level.

The main problem with finding a defensive bot is that in the qualifying matches, teams are going to want to show off their offense to keep their numbers up. Or perhaps a team will have good offense and never get to show off their defensive capabilities because they're being relied on for offenses in "weak" pairings.

Sometimes you just gotta know the team, the bot, the driver and pick a defensive bot that way. I'd say that's how 1675 got picked in Midwest Regional, everyone knows Kevin and they can play good D, even if they weren't showing it (though IIRC at Midwest their scoring wasn't working, so the issue I raised above doesn't apply).

Chexposito

11-04-2009, 07:28

Also you guys can't forget that there are lower scoring teams that go for the empty cell delivery. We found that to be one of our best strategies yet.

canadiankid1029

11-04-2009, 08:44

Isn't there something special about being the last pick in alliance selections? The drama is just incredible!! :ahh:

Couldnt agree more, its a nerve racking experience!

Chris is me

11-04-2009, 18:51

Couldnt agree more, its a nerve racking experience!

One of the only things I like about serpentine draft :( is the suspense in "who will be the first alliance's third pick" intensity.

Then again, I shouldn't complain, if it weren't for that same serpentine draft I wouldn't even be in FRC.

234smidget

11-04-2009, 21:14

I agree with other users, the third pick will vary from team to team depending on scouting and strategy. As well, for some mysterious reason a team who struggled or did amazing during the regional may malfunction at Atlanta. Who really knows. It will be interesting to see who the 8 alliances are.

(but what i do know that a Newton division winner will be the champions) :D

tsiersema

12-04-2009, 02:01

ShaunT

12-04-2009, 02:48

Not to knock 1918, you guys do unload very quickly, but you really shouldn't get cocky. The other robots here are good at what they do too; don't be surprised if good defense is played against you.

Chris is me

12-04-2009, 11:42

We've thought about it, and after watching last year's championship matches again, we think team 148 would be a decent 2nd rounder.

Our plan is to hopefully grab 148 in the 2nd round

If they don't grab you first ;)

Man, it would be just about the greatest thing ever to be the third pick of 148 / 1625. Scoring machine, scoring machine...

#2970-Dan

12-04-2009, 11:49

If were talking about a second round team, then your talking about a team that is pretty dang decent (they have to be to get picked at nationals) yet no one has really heard of them. Im not talking about a team that hasnt been heard of because they did crapy, you still want a team that has performed well without being noticed. Being a rookie team this year, i honestly don't plan on making it to the top eight but i dont think that team 2970 is a bad team what so ever, scoring almost all of the 117 points in the minnesota finals while 79s loader broke down would strike me as a bad team!

JonellGregor

12-04-2009, 13:03

Being a rookie team this year, i honestly don't plan on making it to the top eight but i dont think that team 2970 is a bad team what so ever, scoring almost all of the 117 points in the minnesota finals while 79s loader broke down would strike me as a bad team!

Team 79's loader didn't break down. It was jammed but not for the whole match. It was only jammed for the last thirty seconds. We did score quite a few times. I know for sure we dumped twice(if not more) and one of the times I remember was doing a double dump with you guys. I went back and watched the match(they showed the drivers too much) and saw at least two. You guys are an awesome team :), I just don't want you giving us a bad rep.

thefro526

12-04-2009, 13:29

Well i dont know exactly but we do have a good bunch of robots but the other divisions watch out for the MICHIGAN teams they are amazing. but we are an excellent scorer let me tell u, thats why we have the GM award every district we went to

Excellent Scorers Can get pinned in the corner just as easily as anyone else. It might be better for you to stop hyping your team up so much, it'll only lead to one thing - Defense.

Did I mention that 612 is one of the Best second picks (third robots) on Newton?

JonellGregor

12-04-2009, 16:55

It might be better for you to stop hyping your team up so much, it'll only lead to one thing - Defense.

I couldn't agree more. You don't want teams coming in knowing they have to play hard defense on you. You want those few beginning matches where they don't know what to do with you yet.

#2970-tim

12-04-2009, 17:08

I try to keep out of the corners. Only becuase like you guys were talking about, you get trapped like a son of a gun. Not saying im never in the corner but i try to stay out of it. Good luck everyone in Atlanta.

EricH

12-04-2009, 17:13

I couldn't agree more. You don't want teams coming in knowing they have to play hard defense on you. You want those few beginning matches where they don't know what to do with you yet.
Yeah. 'Course, I do remember one team in 2007 came in with 2 regional wins and they didn't get much defense until their second match--their first, they made one ring solo and had another tube on and were about to get another on when the match ended. That kind of thing didn't exactly last long, though, as their alliances didn't do that sort of thing again until elims.

You come in plugging your team, you make any target they do have bigger. To make matters worse (unless you are that good), divisions are MUCH tougher than regionals. If you can't back up the talk, you may set up a reputation for your team as a team that talks big and walks small. I personally would much rather have a reputation as a team that talks small (or not at all) and walks tall.

Let others do the plugging for you. It works out better.

dabeast13

12-04-2009, 20:43

As captain of team 2970 I would like to appologize for the posts of my fellow team members. Sometimes they let their enthusiasm run away with them.

It was thanks to team 79 that we even made it to the eliminations. We made an amazing alliance along with 2549. Go Neon alliance!!! I would also like point out that 79 didn't break during the finals. They made 3 spectacular dumps during the match. They just smushed a ball with their sheer power. That was an amazing match. I can still feel the excitement. We love you guys!!!

I think that 2549 would make just as good of a 2nd pick as they did in North Star. Seriously check them out.