More then 7 matches?

[Joe Ross]

Bill Miller had a new blog yesterday. http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2009/04/were-getting-ready.html

With luck the number of FRC teams may work out perfectly this year. At the moment we have 348 teams registered to attend. That works out to 87 teams in each division and 29 complete alliances. There will be time for each team to play 7 qualifying rounds on Friday.

The current Agenda (http://usfirst.org/uploadedFiles/Community/FRC/Events/2009/2009_CMP_Agenda.pdf) shows 440 minutes of matches on Friday, for an average turnaround of 4 minutes 19 seconds. (I'm sure the FTAs and Field Supervisors in the crowd are shuddering thinking about that number). Then there's time on Saturday for another match or two. The only way to realistically get 7 matches on Friday is to start matches when the pits open on friday and finish them at close, with no lunch break.

I can't imagine 7 matches on Friday actually happening, but that's what Bill said.

[BandChick]

4 minute matches is...nuts.
In NJ, NYC, and Philly, 7 minute turnaround was scheduled.
We managed to get it just under 6 by Saturday in Philly, but WOW.

Well, good luck to the queuers, resetters, refs, and the rest of the field crew next weekend!

[Greg Peshek]

I don't know if it's possible, but the intros for teams usually take about 1:15-1:30 - so theoretically if they cut down on saying the sponsors out load and just introduce the team numbers. They could probably cut it down to 30 seconds. Take that minute off your 6 minute time at Philly and you're down to 5 minutes, go really fast and they may make it to 4:19.

However, whether they will cut down the introductions is another matter. But that's really the only thing that it seems they could cut down.

[Koko Ed]

4 minute matches is...nuts.
In NJ, NYC, and Philly, 7 minute turnaround was scheduled.
We managed to get it just under 6 by Saturday in Philly, but WOW.

Well, good luck to the queuers, resetters, refs, and the rest of the field crew next weekend!

I've worked with many crews this year and if there is a bunch who can take the challenge on it's FIRST volunteers.
We'll see if they really mean to try this or if it's just a typo.

[TKM.368]

Hm, since yesterday afternoon there are 349 teams listed (https://my.usfirst.org/myarea/index.lasso?page=teamlist&event_type=FRC&sort=teamnum&year=2009&event=cmp).

I wonder if some team dropped out and wasn't removed from the list. Newton (https://my.usfirst.org/myarea/index.lasso?page=teamlist&event_type=FRC&sort=teamnum&year=2009&event=cmp&division=newton) now has 88 and the other fields 87 with the addition of Team 687.

[thefro526]

I'd LOVE to see more than seven matches. I doubt it'll happen but I'm holding onto hope that it does.

I think they might shave some of the turn around time off by letting teams pre-load their robots while waiting in for the next match (I want to say they did this at MSC but I'm not sure).

[GoSparx]

I think Bill may have meant 7 qualification matches TOTAL for Atlanta.
My $.02

[David Brinza]

I'm pretty sure that Bill meant to say that there would be seven qualifying matches for each team on Friday and Saturday.

With 6 minute intervals between 102 matches (which gives each team 7 matches and just three surrogates), we're looking at bit over 10 hours of playing time for the qualification round. The agenda shows almost 10-1/2 hours for FRC qualifying matches on Friday/Saturday combined. Even with this schedule, there's little slack for field issues, referee discussions, etc.

I've seen matches turn around in just over five minutes, but that was on Saturday when the teams and field reset crew were very familiar with the drill. I don't see FIRST expecting to fit in an eight-match per team qualifying round (requiring 116 matches to be played). Banking on less than 5-1/2 minute intervals between matches just doesn't seem prudent.

[Alan Anderson]

I can't imagine 7 matches on Friday actually happening, but that's what Bill said.

For quite a while now, Bill's Blog has had a reputation in my mind for saying things that don't quite make sense. Bill is certainly in a position of authority, but I don't treat his blog as being authoritatively correct.

[jgannon]

I think Bill may have meant 7 qualification matches TOTAL for Atlanta.
That's what we've been doing since at least 2004, and since I don't see any compelling reason to make things more hectic, I agree.

Also, David... seven qualification rounds on Friday would have to mean nine matches total, not eight. Only running one match per team on Saturday (14-15 total matches) would be almost as ridiculous as running seven per team (101-102 total) on Friday. :p

[chessking132]

I agree that it would be very hectic but I would enjoy the extra match time. But for only for and a half minutes of pit time i might just stay on the field if the robot does not need repairs.

[ScottOliveira]

It's always nice to have more matches, but it would just be impractical given the scale of the event. They will have trouble finishing all the current matches on time, there is just no spare time. The referees, volunteers, and announcers will all be hard-pressed as it is to get everything done and keep the match turnaround going.

And with matches closer together there's just going to be no time to get any work done should something go wrong with the robot. Especially given the long walks to queues, everything will be beyond hectic as is (as it generally is at championships).

[Don Wright]

I don't see why it would be so hard to compress the schedule a little and give all the teams that are spending a lot of money more rounds in Atlanta...

Let's see...

Have inspections available Wed. night so that teams that can make it in early Wed and uncrate can get their robot inspected. Rely on trust that teams are not working on their robot other than just getting it inspected. I bet they could get half the robots inspected on Wed. (since all the robots have been thru inspections at least once, usually more already).

Thursday morning - practice - everyone is scheduled for one double round with a fill in line...

Thursday afternoon - 3 rounds per team
Friday morning - 3 rounds per team
Friday afternoon - 3 rounds per team
Saturday morning - 3 rounds per team

Pick elims...

Sure we might have to come a little earlier, and stay a little later... But this gives everyone 12 rounds... We all are paying a lot of money and time to come to this championship event and I think we all would be willing the extra "sacrifice"...

[ScottOliveira]

However, some teams may not be ready for inspection that early. Some may have had damage at the end of previous competitions, or may have improvements they want to make. This rushes them more, and makes it harder for good repairs or changes to be made. Rushed repairs are more likely to come undone and cause trouble in later matches. And taking away practice hurts teams that haven't been to as many regionals, by depriving them of extra actual practice driving time.

Of course it would be great to have more qualifying matches, but short of actually starting the competition on Wednesday, there is no simple way to get them.

[Don Wright]

Yeah, I can see that. I mean we are never busy on Thursday and are usually just sitting around with nothing to do ;)

However, IMHO, this is the championship event. All robots need to be ready to go, or need to be able to be ready in that Thursday morning...

I saw what a Championship event could be like at the MSC. I am hoping that this is what the World Championship event is like in the future... And to make it event better, give all the qualifying teams more qualifying matches.

Just my opinion...

[JB987]

I believe we could get 7 matches in on Friday if the Agenda was modified a bit and a 5 minute turn around was achieved (as it was at our LVR)...it would be nice to have at least 8 qualifying matches for a change. Imagine spending $5000 for entry and another $14000 for your teams travel/hotel expenses and only playing 7 matches if unable to play eliminations...an extra match takes a little bit of the sting off;)

[Nawaid Ladak]

FIRST should consider going later into the day on friday... sortof like what hapened at Isreal (http://www2.usfirst.org/2009comp/events/IS/matchresults.html)this year. I personally would love to see matches go that late, and for teams to get in 9-10 matches during qualifying

it would really put the best teams a the top. and make teams work harder to earn that #1 Alliance Caption Hat.

[chessking132]

I would be willing to stay later for matches. We pay so much to compete I would jump at any chance to get more field time.:yikes:

More matches also means that a team’s performance is better reflected in the rankings.

[AB755]

I don't see why it would be so hard to compress the schedule a little and give all the teams that are spending a lot of money more rounds in Atlanta...

Let's see...

Have inspections available Wed. night so that teams that can make it in early Wed and uncrate can get their robot inspected. Rely on trust that teams are not working on their robot other than just getting it inspected. I bet they could get half the robots inspected on Wed. (since all the robots have been thru inspections at least once, usually more already).

Thursday morning - practice - everyone is scheduled for one double round with a fill in line...

Thursday afternoon - 3 rounds per team
Friday morning - 3 rounds per team
Friday afternoon - 3 rounds per team
Saturday morning - 3 rounds per team

Pick elims...

Sure we might have to come a little earlier, and stay a little later... But this gives everyone 12 rounds... We all are paying a lot of money and time to come to this championship event and I think we all would be willing the extra "sacrifice"...


I think you have it right Don, and it would not be a sacrifice.

A full day of practice on Thursday is a waste at a Championship level event. A full Thursday practice was part of the schedule at the MI Championship and it was not necessary.

I agree, run matches Thursday afternoon. Of course it is too late to change this year, but there is always next year!

[ScottOliveira]

I think you have it right Don, and it would not be a sacrifice.

A full day of practice on Thursday is a waste at a Championship level event. A full Thursday practice was part of the schedule at the MI Championship and it was not necessary.

I agree, run matches Thursday afternoon. Of course it is too late to change this year, but there is always next year!

Perhaps for a lot of teams at the national a full day of practice is unnecessary, but for some it can be crucial. You forget that a large number of teams do not make it to the championships based on their robot, but on other factors. One award that earns a spot in Atlanta is specifically for rookie teams, who may have more work to do than others. And given the number of teams who get damaged in late matches at regionals, or who want to try to make some improvement or change, that full day is crucial. Also consider that the full day for changes can act as a buffer for any of the international teams, in case of any sort of travel delay.

It is true that for lots of the veteran teams, a full day of practice is not necessary, but it can be a godsend for newer teams, or any team that has had the misfortune to sustain serious damage, be it from a regional competition, a shipping problem, or anything else.

It would be nice to get more matches to help teams get more action for their dollar and to help rankings truly reflect the quality of the team and their robot, but if the matches start too soon, the rankings might be skewed against some teams that have truly amazing machines.

[IKE]

[QUOTE=ScottOliveira;849746] Also consider that the full day for changes can act as a buffer for any of the international teams, in case of any sort of travel delay.

QUOTE]

I think the international travel part has a lot fo validity, but I am not so sure about the damage. That is part of it. If a bot is not designed robust enough, then that is a design flaw (this is coming from a team that often has such issues).

[DBiehl]

Some damage is unavoidable though. With 120 pounds, not every robot can be built to withstand a head on collision at full speed and all robots have sensitive parts that could get damaged. If this were to happen during the finals and they were left having to crate the robot immediately after their match, they'd be depending on Thursday to fix the robot up before they could compete.

[robotlover]

That would be quite difficult to get 7 matches in in one day... too hectic and not enough time :P

[jholman]

I think having 10 matchs would be optimal. This would require 145 matches for 87 team devisions. At 5.5 minute turnarounds this would be a total of 13.3 competition hours. For ease sake we'll estimate 13.5 hours. Heres what I think would be a good schedule. Also before I start let me say I haven't been to Atlanta before (although I am going this year) so if none this makes any sense tell me.

Wednesday: Open the pits to the first 3 people at 3:00 and allow others in at 5:00. Pits close at 8:00

Thursday: Open Pits at 8:00. Start practice Matches at 8:30 and go till 1:00. (at 9 minute turnarounds this is about 1 Practice match a piece.)
Start Qualification matches at 2:00 and go till 5:00.

Friday: Qualification matches from 9:00-12:00 and 12:45-5:45.

Saturday: Qualification matches from 9:00-11:30. Then begin elimination rounds.

Basically I think they should open the pits earlier on Wednesday to help teams start repairing thier robots and start Qualifiers late Thursday.

Just my opinion.

[waialua359]

Since we already have to fly in on at least Tuesday due to unpacking of crate on Wednesday,
Why not allow unpacking of the crate with time to setup the pits, fix robot (if necessary) and allow the use of practice fields.
That would also be a good time to get your info from pit admin, attend workshops on Thursdays (rather than during matches on Friday), and other business such as inspection of robots.

Then,
Thursday could have practice matches only in the morning, have the opening ceremony and run 2 real matches after lunch.
Friday could have 6 matches since the opening ceremony already took place.
Saturday could run status quo.

That would give 10 matches and a better representation of the top 8 teams.

With so many teams, I am all for more matches.

[ShaunT]

I think having 10 matchs would be optimal. This would require 145 matches for 87 team devisions. At 5.5 minute turnarounds this would be a total of 13.3 competition hours. For ease sake we'll estimate 13.5 hours. Heres what I think would be a good schedule. Also before I start let me say I haven't been to Atlanta before (although I am going this year) so if none this makes any sense tell me.

Wednesday: Open the pits to the first 3 people at 3:00 and allow others in at 5:00. Pits close at 8:00

Thursday: Open Pits at 8:00. Start practice Matches at 8:30 and go till 1:00. (at 9 minute turnarounds this is about 1 Practice match a piece.)
Start Qualification matches at 2:00 and go till 5:00.

Friday: Qualification matches from 9:00-12:00 and 12:45-5:45.

Saturday: Qualification matches from 9:00-11:30. Then begin elimination rounds.

Basically I think they should open the pits earlier on Wednesday to help teams start repairing thier robots and start Qualifiers late Thursday.

Just my opinion.

So you want the FIRST in Michigan schedule in Atlanta? I would agree with that. This is basically a trade of practice matches for qualifying matches. You will get equal pit time but less practice drive time.

[GaryVoshol]

I think having 10 matchs would be optimal. This would require 145 matches for 87 team devisions. At 5.5 minute turnarounds this would be a total of 13.3 competition hours. For ease sake we'll estimate 13.5 hours.You aren't going to get 5.5 minute turnarounds. At least you can't plan for getting that - one short delay of 10-15 minutes will kill the entire schedule. The MI Cmp averaged about 6 minute cycles, maybe a few seconds less: http://www2.usfirst.org/2009comp/events/GL/matchresults.html And this was with experienced teams, who had all run at least 24 matches before, many 30 or more. Those matches that made 5 minutes, and a couple of them that even made 4, were offset by those matches that took 7 minutes. And notice both Fri am and Fri pm started late, losing 16 minutes there. You can run 6's; you can't plan on running anything less. It just won't work.

Since we already have to fly in on at least Tuesday due to unpacking of crate on Wednesday,
Why not allow unpacking of the crate with time to setup the pits, fix robot (if necessary) and allow the use of practice fields.
That would also be a good time to get your info from pit admin, attend workshops on Thursdays (rather than during matches on Friday), and other business such as inspection of robots.

Then,
Thursday could have practice matches only in the morning, have the opening ceremony and run 2 real matches after lunch.
Friday could have 6 matches since the opening ceremony already took place.
Saturday could run status quo.

That would give 10 matches and a better representation of the top 8 teams.

With so many teams, I am all for more matches.Now that's a pretty good schedule. The Wed evening pit hours correspond to the FiM optional load-in hours. You could opt out of it, and do everything Thurs am if you wanted.

Depending on the game, I'd also change the way practice rounds were run. Make it single runs on a 7 minute schedule. Slightly under 3.5 hours. In this game, reset between the two practice matches in a single session can sometimes take longer than getting new robots on the field. Especially if the incoming robots are allowed to preload game pieces.

[waialua359]

Thanks for the vote of confidence!
My whole thing is why cram everything on Friday and Saturday when you got Wed and Thursday not maxed out at all?
I am not for shorter turnaround times to add more matches. Its bad enough as it is walking a marathon to take your robot to and from the field.
Anything bad go wrong? then, you got major issues. The worst thing is for a robot to miss a match, especially in this year's type of game. More like game over.......:D

[thefro526]

I've been thinking about this a lot and what's the possibility of having 8 matches? Maybe some teams are going to have 7 matches Friday and then 1 on Saturday morning while other teams have 6 matches Friday and then have 2 Saturday morning. What are the odds of that happening?

[AB755]

Thanks for the vote of confidence!
My whole thing is why cram everything on Friday and Saturday when you got Wed and Thursday not maxed out at all?

Exactly. Teams have put in all the time and expense to get to Atlanta, use all that time wisely.

[Joe Ross]

I've been thinking about this a lot and what's the possibility of having 8 matches? Maybe some teams are going to have 7 matches Friday and then 1 on Saturday morning while other teams have 6 matches Friday and then have 2 Saturday morning. What are the odds of that happening?

Even if just a single team is going to have 7 matches on Friday, you're still talking about 5 minute turnaround times.

[jholman]

Yes I guess 5.5 minutes is quite ambitious. At the Oregon Regional we had quite a few delays and at one point it took nearly one hour to complete the first elimination match without error. So I do realize how easily things can go wrong even with a great field crew.

6 minute turnarounds would result in 9 matches each for my previously posted schedule which would be fine also. Or just start earlier and run the 10 matches.

[ScottOliveira]

Thanks for the vote of confidence!
My whole thing is why cram everything on Friday and Saturday when you got Wed and Thursday not maxed out at all?
I am not for shorter turnaround times to add more matches. Its bad enough as it is walking a marathon to take your robot to and from the field.
Anything bad go wrong? then, you got major issues. The worst thing is for a robot to miss a match, especially in this year's type of game. More like game over.......:D

Wednesday isn't supposed to be maxed out. Teams are not required to uncrate the robot on Wednesday, it is given as an option to help things go more smoothly the next day, but teams aren't required to be there Wednesday. And Thursday is maxed out, a full day for practice and repairs.

Remember that while you're trying to maximize the utility of all the money spent getting to championships, by adding Wednesday that would require more money from every team. Some can barely afford to come as it is, another day might break the budget. Also consider that this is an event for high school students. They have classes everyday, that they are missing while at competition. So everyday you're gone is more work the students have to make up, and fewer students that will be able to go. Especially consider that some teachers get upset when students miss their classes (at least that's how it was at my school), and some schools have policies with regards to maximum school trip length or maximum missed days of school.

Also this is the time of year that tends to be heavy for standardized testing (I believe when I was in high school, Advanced Placement tests were the first two weeks of May). While I'm sure all of the people who are coming to Atlanta would much rather be here than at school, it is important to not take too much of their time, so that they can be prepared for other things.