New VEX Game Announced!

[Akash Rastogi]

http://www.vexrobotics.com/vex-clean-sweep.shtml

This looks to be awesome!!

We'll be back in VEX for this year.:D

[ttldomination]

A few points.

1) FIRST can take a page out of IFI's book. The game was launched immediately after the next season, with, I bet little to no confusion. Granted the animation and other documents haven't been released, but still, it's nice to know.

2) Balls..intersting. I'm predicting a tank tread dominated win. :D.

3) Am I proper to understand that teams will have to score *over* the barrier and on the other side? THAT is really new.

[gblake]

...
2) Balls..interesting. I'm predicting a tank tread dominated win. :D.
...
Perhaps

If you are envisioning a tank tread conveyor that
adjusts to 2 or 3 widths during the game, and
can reach over the wall and the other alliance's goal, and
can predictably handle footballs, and
can pull the small balls out of the holes in the fence

then I totally agree ;)

Blake

[ttldomination]

I don't think the threads need to exactly adjust to the width. The smaller balls are 4" in Diameter so that means roughly 2 treads, but the treads can be spaced out. But scoring the 9" ball will be a "bit" of a challenge.

[rtfgnow]

On page 8 of http://www.vexrobotics.com/docs/vex-clean-sweep/vex-clean-sweep-manual-20090502.pdf it says the medium balls are worth 3 points but everywhere else it says 5. Someone probably rushed this file.

[thefro526]

I really like the way this game looks. It's going to be strategy Dependant which is always cool and I think we're going to see some neat designs...

Who knows, TheFro might start a vex team.... I do have like $1500 in vex stuff lying around....

[ttldomination]

I don't think this game is going to be as strategy Dependant as the others.

Mainly because robots cannot really cross the barrier. What might be interesting is having a robot which can cross under the slot and steal all of the balls that are on the other side.

Defense is almost 0 in the game unless a team decides to cross the slot.

[thefro526]

I don't think this game is going to be as strategy Dependant as the others.

Defense is almost 0 in the game unless a team decides to cross the slot.

Contact Defense is almost Zero, you're right.

But, if you score on your opponent you're essentially giving them balls to score on you. So then, if you control when you give them balls you can control when they can score. My idea would be to let my opponent score on my side the whole match (while maybe defending the tall goals) and then gather up what they've scored on me and then wait until the last few seconds of the game and dump the balls onto my opponents side. If you do it late enough, your opponent can't gather the balls back up to retaliate. So you can play defense, it just takes some creativity, a bit of strategy and a lot of Courage.

Also, you can't cross the slot intentionally according to SG4: <SG4> Robots are prohibited from intentionally contacting any of the tiles in their scoring zone. Robots
violating this rule will be disabled at the discretion of the head-referee. The intent of this rule is not to
penalize teams who accidentally reach over/under the wall and touch their scoring zone, but instead
prevent strategies involving robots crossing to the far side of the field.

[bellpride]

We found this game to be a lot more like FRC than vex competitions usually are - it's not just the usual scoring in goals.

The game pieces are quite nice - while the "real" ones have a vex logo on them, I think it would be easy and cheap to buy them elsewhere for practice.

[Joe G.]

Defense will be FAR from nonexistent in this game. Just nonexistent in the forms we're used to.

Think Stack attack wings...


Aside from that, looks to be a very good game. No "traditional" defense will encourage creative designs, that may be too fragile to use in a normal game.

I have not had a chance to handle the gamepieces yet, but I imagine that the varied sizes, and football shape, will lead to many creative pickup/sorting methods.

The large balls offer an interesting strategic decision. They should only be introduced if you are confident that you will be able to get them to the other side in time.

And finally, we seem to have another "dumpers vs. shooters" debate on our hands :p

[Chris is me]

As it's far from likely that I'd be involved in VRC in any way (barring the college team pilot thing), here were some of my impressions skimming the rules.

I can easily see some sort of uber-efficient small ball collecting / hopper bot being a very valuable partner. Those are the only balls you can score that your opponent can't score back at you, and you get 18 not even counting the balls between the divider if those are hard to access. You can scoop 6 up in autonomous, and then go ahead and collect and score em in the high goals for a nice 54 points ! The tricky part of course is that the goal is across the barrier, which ruins my Syntax Error "Hopper that uses the side of the triangle goal to support the balls before it gets to the top" design.

The football scoring impact is misleading; they matter twice as much as their score indicates, since they are also removed from your opponent's total as you add them.

It's too bad there are no Vex pneumatics so that you can't have some kind of "Ball Puncher" that picks up balls and launches them across the field.

[SCROSSLEY-GCEC]

It's too bad there are no Vex pneumatics so that you can't have some kind of "Ball Puncher" that picks up balls and launches them across the field.

Err, GC/EC has a VEX Pneumatics kit??

I'm looking at a few different designs...
a) big box, bottom drops into ramp with aid of a servo
b) long rectangular tube which stores lots of balls, tilts to score
c) simple arm, maybe with a curved bar rather than square to control the roll-age of the balls

or d which is a secret until my team shoots it down :P

[Rick TYler]

Defense is almost 0 in the game unless a team decides to cross the slot.

Heh heh heh. Your homework is to come up with three great defensive robot designs by Tuesday.

I think the design is devilish, and I have already seen the game pieces in person. Think "Aim High poof ball" in different shapes. I'm trying to work out a hybrid Stack Attack, Aim High, Lunacy robot out of Vex parts that will fit in an 18" cube...

[SCROSSLEY-GCEC]

Doesn't say anywhere that you cant block the slot :P

[Akash Rastogi]

All I can think of is strategies like Beatty 2002 and 237 from 2004.:D

[dooey100]

I had this EXACT idea earlier. Even down to the different ball sizes and "locking" the balls in. (Although I didn't call it that) I think the only differences were I had a shorter seperating wall, only 2 ball sizes instead of 3, and no footballs :P

Anyway, I won't be competeing, but I made an idea for a design anyway :)

Assuming its legal to cover your own triangles, I would make a bot that could cover both triangles and has a massive hopper in the middle that your allies can fill up, that dumps all the balls at the last second.

[rtfgnow]

I don't think it is feasible to lock up the small balls, thay are 4 inch diameter, it would be hard to score more than 5 in one 18 inch high goal, if you get five in each goal it is equal to 6 medium balls, it would be easier just to shoot balls over the wall.

[Rich Kressly]

It's too bad there are no Vex pneumatics so that you can't have some kind of "Ball Puncher" that picks up balls and launches them across the field.

There are VEX pneumatics and they've been legal for two years in VRC.

[Chris is me]

There are VEX pneumatics and they've been legal for two years in VRC.

Ah, I still have the old FTC rules stuck in my head. (designs winning robot)

Something (for me!) to keep in mind is that with absolutely no robot pushing wars to worry about, stuff like omni drive is completely viable, when in previous years a robot with omni drive would get pushed too easily. I'd love to be able to strafe along the barrier with a giant wall of sheet metal.

I have a (bad) design idea for some kind of hinged wall of VEX plates that I might build for fun this summer... it'd be nice and geared, but basically an 18 inch square bot has a plate that folds up from parallel to perpendicular to the chassis, then flaps on the side (that were underneath it when folded) pop out, then the robot plays defense. I don't know how well it would work but building Vex robots that aren't gimmicks isn't really my thing. ^_^

Heh, now I want to make a CAD render of the idea. Or just build it.

[Rick TYler]

I've posted some pictures of the new game objects and field layout at: http://www.vexforum.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=3266. There are five total, scroll down to go to the others.

[Chris is me]

Those small balls are much bigger than I thought. It's a bummer that there's only 10 you can fit in both goals, they seemed like a really reliable option for scoring.

Two small balls being roughly as wide as a football is giving me manipulator ideas...

[ttldomination]

My drawing board was full with drawings and strategy and then I saw the pictures and realized exactly how big the balls were...dang.

None the less back to board.

Honestly, I'm not even sure if we'll be allowed to do VRC. We'd have to convince the mentor and then on top of that build a robot that convinces them that we can "handle" it.

RIck TyLer - How heavy would you guess the balls are?

[Akash Rastogi]

Woot, we just confirmed two new VRC teams for this year.

I too underestimated the size of the playing elements.:eek:

[ttldomination]

I was reading through the manual again and I was wondering, How exactly do we use 10 motor/servos with only 1 Y-cable allowed?

[Rick TYler]

I was reading through the manual again and I was wondering, How exactly do we use 10 motor/servos with only 1 Y-cable allowed?

That's one Y-cable per motor port, not one total.

[Rick TYler]

RIck TyLer - How heavy would you guess the balls are?

They are denser than this year's cubes and a lot "squishier." If you were around in '06, they strike me as being just about identical to the Nerf Poof Balls of that year. You can get a Nerf basketball or football at a local toy store -- about like that. Or, just register a team and IFI will send you a welcome kit including all the different balls. Somewhere in all those boxes out in my van there is probably a welcome kit or two.

[Karthik]

RIck TyLer - How heavy would you guess the balls are?

All dimensions, including those of the game objects can be found at in the game documentation located at: http://www.vexrobotics.com/vex-clean-sweep.shtml

Small Balls:
Size - approximately 4.0" in diameter
Weight - approximately 0.125 lbs

Medium Balls:
Width - approximately 5.25" wide
Length - approximately 9.0" long
Weight - approximately 0.4 lbs

Large Balls:
Size - inflated to about 9.5" in diameter
Weight - approximately 0.55 lbs

[Akash Rastogi]

I must say though, I do wish there was more robot to robot interaction. I really like this game though, the size of the game elements looks fun to work with.

[astephen68]

I had an idea where i use and converbelt thing to pick up the round balls from the ground and put it into a container or bucket and then build and arm to pick up the football and put it into the container. Then dumb them all at the wall

[ttldomination]

That would seem to be the basic idea that everyone's working at. :D.

What'll set robots apart are

1. Storage. It was said earlier that it'll probably be a good idea to dump in the final moments of match in order to make sure that balls don't come back over. So in the final minutes of the match, which ever team controls more balls towards the end will most likely end up winning.

2. The post might end up playing a big role if a team manages to dump balls into the post and fill up both, then that is 30 points, right there. While during qualifications, matches tend to be clear cut, but during the finals, this might end up being a deciding factor.

3. Intaking and scoring the footballs is a given.

4. The large balls are also key. While the page says 10 points, that is ultimately a difference of 20 points between your score and the other teams score.

5. Good defensive robots can also block the wall and stop other robots from dumping balls. This will be crucial in the last seconds of the match as the offensive robots go to make their massive dump. This will also help when teams are making feverish attempts to get the large ball over the barrier.

Obviously everyone wants to dump, and most robots will figure out the basic dump, but robots which can figure how how to do the above will be extremely successful. I'm glad to say that we're currently working on finalizing a design which can do all o' the above. :D. muahahaha.

[Billfred]

Actually, I'm not so sold on the idea of holding balls until late match. Students of Half-Pipe Hustle learned that it was often more difficult to acquire randomly-scattered balls than it was to get neatly-ordered ones. (Indeed, this became the default strategy for many of the Championship elimination matches.)

That said, both it and Hangin'-A-Round involved relatively precise aim in scoring in goals. This is not the case here, unless you're aiming to lock up balls. I expect to see a fair number of teams looking towards the better power dumpers of Lunacy and reacting accordingly.

One thing I notice is that the size difference between small balls (4" diameter) and medium balls (5.25" diameter) might be small enough to let you get away with only one roller. (Intake rollers on a linear slide? Rubber bands to pull the rollers back down to small-ball height? Break down and use a motor to control height?) Lift the whole basket a la FRC2775 (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/32879), and it might be crazy enough to work. Add the appropriate hardware to it, and you might have an easy gate to hold the large ball too--run the lift up, place the ball, get in position, drop the lift, ball goes over.

Bear in mind, I don't have a dog in this fight--take all of the above with a full shaker of salt, and test incessantly.

[ttldomination]

That makes sense, but teams who are aiming for the goals would have to reach higher than what 2775 reached, in reference to the robot frame.

But for a team who is aiming for a strong dumper will definitely have success with the design that bill'fred suggested.

But I still think that the center goals will make all the difference.

[Rick TYler]

That makes sense, but teams who are aiming for the goals would have to reach higher than what 2775 reached, in reference to the robot frame.

But for a team who is aiming for a strong dumper will definitely have success with the design that bill'fred suggested.

But I still think that the center goals will make all the difference.

I thought you were an FTC guy. Are you coming back to the Vexside?

[Chris is me]

That was my latest idea, Billfred. Basically a little like NC Gears's bot with two hoppers, one for each kind of ball, or a linear sliding tread. Then a tray that lifts up like Syntax Error in Hangin-A-Round.

[Billfred]

That makes sense, but teams who are aiming for the goals would have to reach higher than what 2775 reached, in reference to the robot frame.

<snark>If you get all the balls over to the other side of the field, you don't have to worry about the goals. ;)</snark>

Seriously, though, I'm still not entirely sold on the idea of locking up small balls. The 20 extra points is nice, don't get me wrong, but the amount of reach required to get them looks like something you'd have to specialize on. With 180 points potentially out there without locking up (50 in small balls, 105 in medium balls, 20 in large balls, 5 in autonomous), I think the money is elsewhere.

[Akash Rastogi]

<snark>If you get all the balls over to the other side of the field, you don't have to worry about the goals. ;)</snark>

Seriously, though, I'm still not entirely sold on the idea of locking up small balls. The 20 extra points is nice, don't get me wrong, but the amount of reach required to get them looks like something you'd have to specialize on. With 180 points potentially out there without locking up (50 in small balls, 105 in medium balls, 20 in large balls, 5 in autonomous), I think the money is elsewhere.

I definitely agree with that Billfred, well said. Wanna help me design my VRC robot?;)

[The Zevling]

I've been trying to design a robot that expands into a 12' by 2' wall, with a conveyor in the center. I think I can do it, too. (whether or not it can stand upright is not my problem).

If the wall doesn't work, then I will probably either move to a super dumper, or an automatic cannon that may or may not aim.

This is going to be hell of a game for the field reset crews.

First post on Chief Delphi! :D

[SCROSSLEY-GCEC]

I'm tempted by a 12" squarebot design. no front plate on the chassis, and a vertical metal plate set back further on a worm gear. plate pulls back to store balls and pushes forward to push them through the slot. maybe a basic arm holding another plate, or higher up and on a servo,which can flip down and hold the balls in.

now to sell it to my team...

[ttldomination]

I thought you were an FTC guy. Are you coming back to the Vexside?

One of the guys on my team is convinced on building a robot for this competition so I'm not going to stop him. :D. I'm actually joining him.

I agree that there are points elsewhere, but when you get into the finals were the robot across from you has the same capabilities that your robot has, and they're also looking to capitalize on the balls, and simply getting them over the wall, it'll be the goals that'll make a difference. :D

Muahaha. 2775's robot is unique and definitely a usable design in VRC...interesting back to drawing board. :D.

[Rick TYler]

Muahaha. 2775's robot is unique and definitely a usable design in VRC...interesting back to drawing board. :D.

It's pretty good, but I'm drawing more on 1280 at this point. (One of the finest robots to NOT make it to Atlanta this year...)

And welcome back to VEX. We do both FTC and VEX (we got to play against Team Driven at VRC Worlds this year), and it's good to see another old-timer come over to VRC.

[phr34kR]

if i have read the rules correctly are we not allowed any nylon rope this year?
Its a shame if they realy are not going to allow it i will have to re think my lift design.

[SCROSSLEY-GCEC]

Its strange that all my designs this year involve servos... last year we were avoiding them completely and asking what the point of them was

[Joe G.]

if i have read the rules correctly are we not allowed any nylon rope this year?
Its a shame if they realy are not going to allow it i will have to re think my lift design.

I would say there is a decent chance that the real meaning of this is "look for vex-brand nylon rope in the next few months." I'm designing away from rope for now though, just in case. In the meantime, just use a spool to wind vex chain up, for a similar effect.

[ttldomination]

Are rubber bands "technically" part of the VEX kit?

[Joe G.]

Now they are. Most of the "In addition to vex parts, you can use x, y, and z" parts have become vex products over the years, such as rubber bands, velcro, and non-slip padding. I wouldn't be surprised if rope was next on the list.

[Rick TYler]

Are rubber bands "technically" part of the VEX kit?

VEX sells #32 rubber bands, but forget that -- all the cool kids L-O-V-E the VEX latex tubing:

VEX Latex Tubing comes in (2) 5 ft lengths for a total of 10 ft. The VEX Latex Tubing is made from 35A durometer Latex. The Outside Diameter is 1/8 inch and the Inside Diameter is 1/16 inch. This VEX Tubing can stretch up to 3 times its length and still spring back to its original shape. VEX Latex Tubing is great for any application on a VEX robot requiring spring loading.

P/N: VEX-LATEX-TUBING-120 VEX Latex Tubing, 10 ft

[SCROSSLEY-GCEC]

In the meantime, just use a spool to wind vex chain up, for a similar effect.

you're probably on Tim's death list now. He hates the stuff

[Rick TYler]

you're probably on Tim's death list now. He hates the stuff

The little VEX chain is like anything else -- it works great for what it works for. In Elevation, five of our six robots used a chain for the final drive to the wheels, and it worked flawlessly all season. I think one robot popped loose one chain in one practice match. The rest of the year was great. One bad place to use the little chains is in the lift system for something heavy.

[SCROSSLEY-GCEC]

haha we used it to lift our tank tread arm for elevation. he was so p***ed off at me and wasn't even part of my team :P
we beat his team in a competition with it though ;)
but yeah we remade our arm and it became too heavy and wouldn't work :P shouldn't try to improve a good thing! so the chains snapped a few times and now everyone who saw the robot has a vendetta against the chain.

[Joe G.]

you're probably on Tim's death list now. He hates the stuff

In my experience, chain+stall situation, or sudden shock load (i.e. chain is slack, then heavy object it is supporting falls) = BAAD, but in most other cases, it is fine for VRC sized robots. And when in doubt, it can always be doubled/tripled up for redundancy.

[Akash Rastogi]

shouldn't try to improve a good thing!

Haha, hate to laugh at this for a second, but that's just plain wrong in engineering as I've learned through FRC. If you aren't constantly trying to improve something, you aren't doing it right.

Our team jokes around with this motto: "Its not just good, its good enough."

[SCROSSLEY-GCEC]

lol fair point :P but i'm still bummed that we had a brilliant arm that we rebuilt completely just cos bits of it were held together with zipties. we lost out on going to Dallas cos of it

[Rick TYler]

lol fair point :P but i'm still bummed that we had a brilliant arm that we rebuilt completely just cos bits of it were held together with zipties. we lost out on going to Dallas cos of it

575 built their arm over Christmas break and made just about no changes to it after that. They had somehow found a magic combination of speed, weight, and cube-gripping ability and were afraid to mess with it. When their Programming Skills routine required a slightly longer capacity you should have seen the gyrations they went through to add length without actually changing anything. So, continually improving the machine is a good idea except when it isn't.

[SCROSSLEY-GCEC]

So, continually improving the machine is a good idea except when it isn't.
i think mine was one of those isn't's... but most of our other improvements went down well

[ttldomination]

One bad place to use the little chains is in the lift system for something heavy.

I can vouch for that.

We used the chain back in Quad Quandary to attempt to lift an arm, but every time or every other time, the chain would fly apart.

[bobwrit]

Interesting correlation: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=769696&postcount=40

[ttldomination]

THAT is extremely interesting. :D.

[SCROSSLEY-GCEC]

Oh wow it is O_o
Just goes to show that maybe the VEX people actually pay attention to Delphi posters! (or not)

(hehe this post was officially number 123 for me)

[The Zevling]

Now they are. Most of the "In addition to vex parts, you can use x, y, and z" parts have become vex products over the years, such as rubber bands, velcro, and non-slip padding. I wouldn't be surprised if rope was next on the list.

What about zip-ties?

[Joe G.]

What about zip-ties?

4" zipties have been a part of the vex kit from the very beginning.

Not sure whether 11" zipties were legalized before vex sold them, but they do now.

[AlexD744]

Disclaimer: I am not a VRC member, and it's doubtful that I will be. (Sadly:( ).

Okay so my perspective on this games winning strategy is that whatever team can get the most balls onto his own side in autonomous will win. Lets say that the winning alliance has 2 robots that can succesfully pull the small balls out from under the wall while taking the footballs from the posts and the one in between the posts. I predict that the finals will have no autonomous scoring (except on ones self), because the 5 points will be irrelevant if you can get 6 footballs (3 per robot) and 8(each robot takes 4) small balls onto your side. This gives 17 small balls on your feild, 4 available due to preload, and 8 sucked from under the wall. That is 29 points from small balls, while the opposing alliance has 21 points (17 + 4). Now as for medium balls, 5 on your side, 1 from preload, and 6 knocked from wall. That is 60 points. Assuming that the opposing alliance would take the other 3 medium balls (sitting in the center), they have 11 balls (6+1+3). So far the score is 89 - 71(5 extra for autonmous bonus), of course the dumps would not occur until the end. Now that the balls are on your side one robot would collect the balls while the other would bring the other blocks the goals to ensure that the other alliance could not pull ahead. Now because the large balls are worth 10 points the other alliance could score and the points would weigh out 81-89. This does seems close however, if the robots are designed to function perfectly in autonomous, I feel that this could be a winning strategy.

A robot that can succesfully take at least 5 footballs (from the wall) in autonmous would work just as well, but is probably harder to do that fast enough.

Keep in mind that the score is assuming that the other alliance is able to both take the 3 medium balls from the middle wall before you do and score their large ball. So this is worst case senario as long as you perform your tasks correctly.

The primary scoring robot (the one that collects for the 2 minutes), would need to be able to score over any form of defence, so that eliminates scoring through the base, although it would probably be able to reverse the mechanism that sucked up the small balls. The "shooting" mechanism would probably need to be similar to 67's (FRC) robot except aim higher.

The second robot, known as the defensive robot, would be slightly trickier to design (maybe). It would have to get a cover for the goals and a mechanism that knocks medium balls of different heights and can suck the 4 small balls from under the wall. It wouldn't have to nessicarily be able to score these balls just get them onto it's own side so the "primary scorer could pick them up. This also mean that the preloaded balls would have to leave the robot for the primary scorer to use.

Some harder problems to over come is getting a hopper space to accomodate 29 small balls and 12 footballs. Unless the defesive bot scores, this would have to fit in one bot, and be expelled within aproximately 5 secs. I think a hopper that expands, similar to FRC 45 (i think) in 2004. However, this stress would be alleviated if the defensive bot scored.

The question I would ask is, what should I depend another team to innovate and what should I innovate?

My $0.02

There are proably other strategies which involve scoring the large ball and/or scoring in the goals and/or scoring in autonomous (on the other team), however, I feel this one covers most basis, the tricky part is getting two robots together that can do these tasks and do them well. And I could be 100% wrong and off-base, just giving my opinions.

[rtfgnow]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I see no rules preventing covering the triangular goals or blocking the ports in the wall, good defence strategy because I see many teams going for those areas.

[Rick TYler]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I see no rules preventing covering the triangular goals or blocking the ports in the wall, good defence strategy because I see many teams going for those areas.

You can make a good case for sticking a football into your own goals in auto to prevent the other side from filling them up. The ability to remove that football near the end of the match would be important, too.

[rtfgnow]

You can make a good case for sticking a football into your own goals in auto to prevent the other side from filling them up. The ability to remove that football near the end of the match would be important, too.
I was thinking of a plate place in front of it, but that would work too if the ball was not squished.

[AlexD744]

I think the plate would be much easier. I've already expressed my opinion as far as the reason to be able to defend, even though I think the ability to score in them is superfluous, it could be helpful. So many aspects to wrap your mind around, I love designing.

[The Zevling]

Disclaimer: I am not a VRC member, and it's doubtful that I will be. (Sadly:( ).
<long analysis>
The factor you're forgetting (which is completely understandable, considering you aren't an active VRC member) is that matches during the seeding rounds are completely random. If you design your robot defensively, there is no guarantee that your partner is offensive.

Is anyone familiar with the prisoner's dilemma*? That sort of thing could occur here:

1) Because the worst possible scenario is two defensive robots, everyone will build offensive robots.
2) because everyone has offensive robots, a defensive robot will always create the "ideal match-up".
3) Several teams, following this logic, create defensive robots.
4) Several teams, anticipating #3, have to decide whether to create an offensive or defensive robot. It seems safer to make an offensive robot, but that puts you back on #2.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I see no rules preventing covering the triangular goals or blocking the ports in the wall, good defence strategy because I see many teams going for those areas.

I myself have found no rule preventing my "uber-wall", which would ideally block all ball transference except where specifically allowed by my robot.



*The prisoner's dilemma:
You and your partner in crime are captured, and the police want confessions. So you are separated, and the police make the following deal to you and your partner:
1) If you confess and your partner stays silent, you get off scott free, and your partner gets 20 yrs in jail, and vis versa.
2) If you both stay silent, you are both confined to a holding time of 2 yrs.
3) If you both confess, you both get 10 yrs in jail.
Assuming you don't have any feelings for your partner, and you know that your partner is just as smart and logical as you are, and has no loyalty to you either, do you choose to confess or stay silent?

[phr34kR]

Just to clear things up i only disliked the chain in the way she was using it:o
(we will be using quite a bit of chain this year) Also i think improving is a good thing we completely redesigned and rebuilt our robot in the week and a half before we flew to Dallas, luckily it worked out for us and we made the semi finals at worlds :D

[Chris is me]

So in my endless quest to play with design ideas for a game I'm not playing, I'm currently working on a design very similar to FRC 1625's robot in FRC, but with an omni drive chassis so that you can slide horizontally along the wall to avoid robots trying to play defense. Ideally the hopper would be able to "catch" some of the balls people are throwing over, too :D

Having the 3-part tread with really wide feed solves the different length issues, but the problem arises with the slightly wider footballs. I'm thinking of making one or two of the center treads slightly closer to the wall (that the balls roll up), so balls will corral there while footballs will go up the edges (kind of like the gripper things that 1114 had on their bot this year in a way). That or perhaps advanced tread flippers to hold balls.

Basically I wanna build real bad :/

[Smoores]

what if you dropped a football in an opponent's triangle? that would block it, and that would be a score for you. Is that legal?




If so I have a perfect design.

[ttldomination]

Going a little off topic, but does anyone know what the regional registration fees generally range? We're trying to register and we'd like the infor.

[595294001]

So in my endless quest to play with design ideas for a game I'm not playing...

Me too!!!!!! Unfortunately my design actually uses stuff allowed in the FTC rules (idk about vex, hence I'm not competing, though it could probably be done in Vex too).

A Large 16x16x10-ish box, framed in metal, with string strung from top to bottom. Attached to the chassis on parallel bars, for lifting. The box is heldheld 4-5" of the ground. At the front there are Lego motors (feeling the FTC????) that turn a robot-wide sweeper (similar to many FRC bots, or FTC Team Power Surge), with sticky material (I was thinking about non-stick pad), that hits the ground. When it rotates, the friction pulls the balls (or footballs) underneath it, and then up a ramp (attached to the chassis), into the hopper. You can than lift the scoop up so that the it is covering the opponents triangle, and when you reverse the ball collector, it dumps in your own. Or you can lift it over the wall and reverse it to drop, many balls quickly onto the opposite side.
Good balance of D and offense.

<Confusion> Also for added capacity, you could have it made of two 4/6ths cubes, that folded into each other (one is slightly smaller), and are then separated by servos, to add capacity (almost twice as much length), it would work as long as continuity could be maintained between the two, so that balls wouldn't stick.</Confusion>

No Idea if its possible, but It looks cool in my head.

[Rick TYler]

Going a little off topic, but does anyone know what the regional registration fees generally range? We're trying to register and we'd like the infor.

Registering a VEX team with IFI is $75. The second through "nth" teams in the same school/club are $25 each. Most VRC tournaments are $50-100 per robot, except for Worlds, which is $250 per robot. If you have one robot, and attend two tournaments, you would spend $175 to $275 in registration fees. Our registration costs for the year for our five* VRC teams was $175 to IFI, plus $750 in registration fees for three tournaments, plus $1,250 to register for Worlds, for a total of $2,175. These are all 2008-2009 season costs. I don't know how much it will cost to attend Worlds in 2010. Hope this helps.

* We added a sixth team for our last tournament, which cost us an additional $75 in registration fees.

[The Zevling]

So in my endless quest to play with design ideas for a game I'm not playing, I'm currently working on a design very similar to FRC 1625's robot in FRC, but with an omni drive chassis so that you can slide horizontally along the wall to avoid robots trying to play defense. Ideally the hopper would be able to "catch" some of the balls people are throwing over, too :D

Having the 3-part tread with really wide feed solves the different length issues, but the problem arises with the slightly wider footballs. I'm thinking of making one or two of the center treads slightly closer to the wall (that the balls roll up), so balls will corral there while footballs will go up the edges (kind of like the gripper things that 1114 had on their bot this year in a way). That or perhaps advanced tread flippers to hold balls.

Basically I wanna build real bad :/
I've always used zipties on the treads, which are probably easier to get ahold of than tread flippers, and longer (even if they fall of right and left).

what if you dropped a football in an opponent's triangle? that would block it, and that would be a score for you. Is that legal?




If so I have a perfect design.
Aren't the triangles your opponents are trying to score in on your side? I thought they were. If they are, than jamming footballs in them would give your opponents the football's points, not you.

[ttldomination]

In this case, Zip Ties might actually make more sense considering that zip ties are more flexible than the flaps. The flaps might cause jamming and they're a pain to deal with. :D

[Rick TYler]

With the right design, you don't need anything on the VEX treads to lift objects. Here's a picture and a description of VRC 418, showing off a tread design several of our robots used this year in Elevation: http://www.vexforum.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=3366&c=26. Make sure you scroll down for the description.

[Smoores]

Aren't the triangles your opponents are trying to score in on your side? I thought they were. If they are, than jamming footballs in them would give your opponents the football's points, not you.

I don't think that the footballs will fit in the triangles, and I don't think footballs count for any points if they are in a triangle.

[Rick TYler]

I don't think that the footballs will fit in the triangles, and I don't think footballs count for any points if they are in a triangle.

Sure they will fit -- they just won't go all the way in very well. My reading of the rules is that the Goals are not in the Scoring Zones, therefore a medium ball in a goal will not count any points for anyone.

This should be a post in the Clean Sweep official Q&A, when they open it. :)

[Chris is me]

With the right design, you don't need anything on the VEX treads to lift objects. Here's a picture and a description of VRC 418, showing off a tread design several of our robots used this year in Elevation: http://www.vexforum.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=3366&c=26. Make sure you scroll down for the description.

The reason for flippers would be to grab under the small balls, as they are narrower than the footballs they would be narrower than the tread-hopper is designed for. They would ideally not obstruct the footballs.

I don't think zipties are rigid enough, though. Maybe little strips of vex metal would work, that are 5 inches apart, so footballs can go between them, and then 2 inches long or so, in order to carry up small balls.

[Rick TYler]

The reason for flippers would be to grab under the small balls, as they are narrower than the footballs they would be narrower than the tread-hopper is designed for. They would ideally not obstruct the footballs.

I don't think zipties are rigid enough, though. Maybe little strips of vex metal would work, that are 5 inches apart, so footballs can go between them, and then 2 inches long or so, in order to carry up small balls.

You can still do this with sliding rails and tank tracks without wire ties or metal bits. Did you take a look at the picture? If that center rail sat down a couple of inches it would work fine.

[Chris is me]

You can still do this with sliding rails and tank tracks without wire ties or metal bits. Did you take a look at the picture? If that center rail sat down a couple of inches it would work fine.

Ah, I guess I missed the link... in the quote I directly quoted :( Not my brightest moment.

I could see that very easily being adapted to this year's design and my magic little 1625 ripoff. Thanks!

[Aren_Hill]

Ah, I guess I missed the link... in the quote I directly quoted :( Not my brightest moment.

I could see that very easily being adapted to this year's design and my magic little 1625 ripoff. Thanks!

knew we shoulda patented it....:D

[Rick TYler]

knew we shoulda patented it....:D

Yeah -- prior art. One of our FVC robots in 2006-7 had pretty much the same design for softballs. You FRC teams are always copying us.

[SCROSSLEY-GCEC]

Just to clear things up i only disliked the chain in the way she was using it:o
Yeah well I seem to remember someone chain robot beating someone elses robot :P


we completely redesigned and rebuilt our robot in the week and a half before we flew to Dallas, luckily it worked out for us and we made the semi finals at worlds :D
Well yes but I was complaining about the improvements which don't work XD

what if you dropped a football in an opponent's triangle? that would block it, and that would be a score for you. Is that legal?

i don't think it counts as points but it would be genius to block your own that way as a defensive bot

[The Zevling]

Sure they will fit -- they just won't go all the way in very well. My reading of the rules is that the Goals are not in the Scoring Zones, therefore a medium ball in a goal will not count any points for anyone.

This should be a post in the Clean Sweep official Q&A, when they open it. :)

The goals aren't in the scoring zones?

Can someone confirm this? it could be important.

[Rick TYler]

The goals aren't in the scoring zones?

Can someone confirm this? it could be important.

I can confirm what the Game Manual says:

Scoring Zone – One of two (2) rectangular areas, one (1) for each alliance, in which teams can score small, medium, or large balls. Scoring zones are defined by the inner edges of the playing field walls, the edges of the center wall and the outer edges of the goals. Each alliance scoring zone is across the center wall from their alliance station.
Note: The center wall and goals are not part of either scoring zone.

What I would like to confirm is that this means, "a medium ball in a goal doesn't score anything." When you look at the definition of "scored" and then at "scoring zone" it looks like it might not.

[Andrew Bates]

I can confirm what the Game Manual says:



What I would like to confirm is that this means, "a medium ball in a goal doesn't score anything." When you look at the definition of "scored" and then at "scoring zone" it looks like it might not.

However what if the medium ball is not completely inside the triangle. In previous VEX games objects are usually counted as scored if any part of the object is within the scoring zone. So although the ball may be placed there with intent to block the goal if it isn't completely within the triangle it may still count. Alas though this will be a question for the GDC.

[Chris is me]

However what if the medium ball is no completely inside the triangle. In previous VEX games objects are usually counted as scored if any part of the object is within the scoring zone.

His point is that medium balls only score in the plane of the scoring zone, and a medium ball wedged vertically into a high goal would not even be hovering over any part of said scoring zone.

Vex Q&A time!

[The Zevling]

I can confirm what the Game Manual says:



What I would like to confirm is that this means, "a medium ball in a goal doesn't score anything." When you look at the definition of "scored" and then at "scoring zone" it looks like it might not.

Thank you very much.

Is it just me, or is there no autonomous or driver challenge this year?

[ttldomination]

I'm sure they'll be established later on.

[gblake]

His point is that medium balls only score in the plane of the scoring zone, and a medium ball wedged vertically into a high goal would not even be hovering over any part of said scoring zone.

Vex Q&A time!The scoring zone extends infinitely upwards from the floor tiles to the sky, so I don't think you are correct you are right when you say "medium balls only score in the plane of the scoring zone".

It might still turn out that a football stuffed into the goal on your side of the field doesn't add points to your opponents score (I'm betting that it doesn't); but it would not be because of the altitude of the football (sitting at the top of the triangular goal).

Blake

[ttldomination]

I'm wondering, would it be beneficial to dump balls outside of the arena...Let's say that a bunch o' balls get pushed over to your side, and you have a large capacity to do a final load, but not quite large enough. To minimize the score on your side, would it beneficial to dump a load outside of the field?

[Andrew Bates]

Well if you had two large dump bots I'm sure a strategy could be to fill both of them up and then dump one out of play and the other on your opponents side. However I'm not sure that in this game removing game pieces from play is that effective. You could just put them on your opponents side instead.

[Chris is me]

Oh, I meant the "vertical plane", which I guess isn't really a plane at all? Bad terminology.

[Billfred]

Well if you had two large dump bots I'm sure a strategy could be to fill both of them up and then dump one out of play and the other on your opponents side. However I'm not sure that in this game removing game pieces from play is that effective. You could just put them on your opponents side instead.
The field barrier neither attempts to block your dump nor attempts to score those balls back. (I'm not saying it's the best strategy, but I see the merits.)

[waialua359]

It looks like our team is finally going to do VEX also with our middle schoolers.
2 Hawaii tournaments and there are plans for a Japan VEX tournament also. We are planning to do that one also, if we are invited, along with a microrobotics contest.
Busy, busy summer already......

[The Zevling]

I'm wondering, would it be beneficial to dump balls outside of the arena...Let's say that a bunch o' balls get pushed over to your side, and you have a large capacity to do a final load, but not quite large enough. To minimize the score on your side, would it beneficial to dump a load outside of the field?

I sincerely hope people decide this is not a viable strategy, as my team is planning to host an event again, and I have a good chance of getting stuck in field reset.

*Pictures large numbers of small spherical (and sort-of-spherical) objects all over the floor*
*shudders*

This game is going to be annoying to reset as it is.

[AlexD744]

The factor you're forgetting (which is completely understandable, considering you aren't an active VRC member) is that matches during the seeding rounds are completely random. If you design your robot defensively, there is no guarantee that your partner is offensive.

Is anyone familiar with the prisoner's dilemma*? That sort of thing could occur here:

1) Because the worst possible scenario is two defensive robots, everyone will build offensive robots.
2) because everyone has offensive robots, a defensive robot will always create the "ideal match-up".
3) Several teams, following this logic, create defensive robots.
4) Several teams, anticipating #3, have to decide whether to create an offensive or defensive robot. It seems safer to make an offensive robot, but that puts you back on #2.


I myself have found no rule preventing my "uber-wall", which would ideally block all ball transference except where specifically allowed by my robot.


The same dilema is sometimes present in FRC and a team has to decide that for himself, right now I have a design in mind that could successfully acheive both. If only I knew what VEX stuff looked like. I have a great idea for a ball manipulator and it can also block the goals. I want to join VEX so badly, too bad I'm probably the only one on the team that does.

And I thought about the uber-wall, and I agree it could be a winning strategy, however, the viability of getting a 12 foot by at least 4 foot wall out of a 18 X 18 inch box is slim. But I'd love to see a team prove me wrong.

[Rick TYler]

I have a design in mind that could successfully acheive both. If only I knew what VEX stuff looked like.

www.vexrobotics.com

[The Zevling]

And I thought about the uber-wall, and I agree it could be a winning strategy, however, the viability of getting a 12 foot by at least 4 foot wall out of a 18 X 18 inch box is slim. But I'd love to see a team prove me wrong.

You think it needs to be at least 4 feet? I think 2 feet would stop most designs.

I guess it depends on how common shooting robots will be. This being Vex, my guess is they won't be, but I might be wrong.

[rtfgnow]

Alex, I think you should get Shark Attack into VRC. Last year there was a qualifier at TNT so you probably won't have to travel more than you regularly do.

[Smoores]

And I thought about the uber-wall, and I agree it could be a winning strategy, however, the viability of getting a 12 foot by at least 4 foot wall out of a 18 X 18 inch box is slim. But I'd love to see a team prove me wrong.

I've already managed to build a wall/arm that has a 3 foot span. I could add another 2 feet if that was my sole strategy.

[ttldomination]

How Tall is this arm/wall?

[Smoores]

Its going to be a variable height,but it can go a significant amount over the wall. It however can't go that low though. But I'm still tinkering with it.



- i just extended it to a 4 ft span

[AlexD744]

You think it needs to be at least 4 feet? I think 2 feet would stop most designs.

I guess it depends on how common shooting robots will be. This being Vex, my guess is they won't be, but I might be wrong.

The only reason I say 4 is because if that is your main strategy then you'd want it to defeat te few that shoot higher than normal, so that you aren't useless in those few times. I know 2 feet would stop most designs but maybe not all of them.

I would love to do VRC, however, I'm not sure if my team would go for it. The tournament in TNT would be a good string to pull if I were to ever convince them, thanks for that. :D And I think I'll make my way over to that next year.

[Chris is me]

If I was building a big giant unfolding wall of Vex plating, I'd just have the center stretch more than 2 feet. But a big, giant wall is unfeasible because your alliance partner can't break it either. A sliding wall on some kind of omnidirectional chassis, be it crab or omniwheel, would probably be better.

Man, why aren't there more Vex crab drives?

[gblake]

I've already managed to build a wall/arm that has a 3 foot span. I could add another 2 feet if that was my sole strategy.
Suppose you erect a wall with a 5 foot wing span and a non-trivial height over the wall that is part of the field.

If I stroll up with my little dumping bot; will I
a) Be able to simply race you to a spot in the 7 feet of the field's width that your wall doesn't cover and be able to beat you there?
b) Be able to easily push either end of your wall out of the way because I have the advantage of leverage when I push on a part of the wall that far from the main body of your robot and because a wall that large made of Vex metal has to be pretty flexible.

I would like to see a picture of what you have built, no matter what. Building it does seem to be a interesting experiment and learning experience, but I just can't imagine it being effective in a Clean Sweep match.

On the other hand, you might be getting good training for deploying solar cell arrays or other structures in outer space, or for bridging small rivers here on earth.

Blake

[AlexD744]

If I was building a big giant unfolding wall of Vex plating, I'd just have the center stretch more than 2 feet. But a big, giant wall is unfeasible because your alliance partner can't break it either. A sliding wall on some kind of omnidirectional chassis, be it crab or omniwheel, would probably be better.

Man, why aren't there more Vex crab drives?

Well as long as you knock most of the footballs to the other side in autonomous it doesn't matter what your partner does, because you've nasically won, but the difficulty of build a mega wall is the major problem.

[ttldomination]

If you do manage to construct this "wall." What is the probability that you'll be able to maneuver as well as the robot which scrambles to score?

If you're up against a decent offensive bot, then the robot should be able to hold a LARGE amount of balls and then should be able to proceed and score them.

As easy as it may seem to build a bot with a large wall, I agree with gblake on that it won't be that effective during the match.

[Chris is me]

I can see a lot more slightly geared up drive trains. You could unfold a wall with 2 motors, then power the drivetrain with 8 and gear it up slightly. No pushing matches, remember? :)

Then again, heavy walls would make this a bit of an issue. Can you speed-hole in Vex?

[gblake]

...
Can you speed-hole in Vex?
If you don't like the existing holes, you may certainly drill more.

[phr34kR]

What about rollers for the wall?
Im thinking if you could lift your wall up past the goals then lower it in the middle of both of them and if you had wheels on the bottom of your wall so you could roll along it (omni drive would be a necessity) Then there would be no chance of being pushed away from the divider also would make for a very stable robot as the heavy wall will be supported by the field.:)

[ttldomination]

Well, robots aren't allowed to the cross the wall and go over the other side and you're talking about putting a wall down on the other side...I think you might get disabled.

[gblake]

Well, robots aren't allowed to the cross the wall and go over the other side ....
Not quite correct

Robots are not allowed to touch the opposite side's tiles. Robots are allowed reach over/under the wall

[ttldomination]

Not quite correct

Robots are not allowed to touch the opposite side's tiles. Robots are allowed reach over/under the wall

Yes you're correct, but the post before me said...

..and if you had wheels on the bottom of your wall so you could roll along it (omni drive would be a necessity) ..


I'm assuming the "it" is the floor.

[bobwrit]

Well, I guess 1977 is in VRC for this year also.:D

[astallasalion]

If I was building a big giant unfolding wall of Vex plating, I'd just have the center stretch more than 2 feet. But a big, giant wall is unfeasible because your alliance partner can't break it either. A sliding wall on some kind of omnidirectional chassis, be it crab or omniwheel, would probably be better.

Man, why aren't there more Vex crab drives?

Well, we're only allowed 10 motors/servos per robot, and crab has to have each wheel independently driven. On top of that, we need two motors/servos to turn the wheels for coax. There are a few teams that use 6 motors on their drivetrain but not a lot, as most of them use their motors to build manipulators.

For this game I'm even contemplating using 2 drive motors geared for torque, just because I need all of my motors for the manipulator(s).

[Ben Mitchell]

I registered three teams while still in Texas and my kids got to spend the plane ride home with a box of sample game scoring objects and a notebook for writing ideas.

It was cleanly done and I really liked having the new game out now - my students can work on it over the summer if they so desire.

[595294001]

My only complaint is about the time frame. For those of us 10-20 hours a week, (while I'm sure that will be toned down for summer), the only realistic use for more time, would be a more advanced autonomous. Plus it gives makes recruiting hard with no time between seasons to get the people coming into grade 10 interested. And finally it means that you lose some of the real-life-esque pressure the old time frame provided, I mean look at FRC...

[Andrew Bates]

So you would prefer to be under a ton of pressure to get something done in time instead of being able to relax think ideas through experiment and then decided to build? I personally prefer this time frame plenty of time to work around other events.

[gblake]

...
a more advanced autonomous.
...
Good plan - I look forward to seeing it in action
...
Plus it gives makes recruiting hard with no time between seasons to get the people coming into grade 10 interested.
...
Then you should get them interested during grade 8 and have them compete in at least one scrimmage that year. That way, by the time they reach grade 10 they are already both interested and experienced.

;)

[ttldomination]

For my team and I, it's not simply take 6 months to build a robot.

We use the VEX kits during the fall. So essentially we have to build good robots by the end of summer, record intensive documents as to how they were built, and then rebuild them around November and before the FRC season. So I guess one could say that we're working under pressure.