Five weeks instead of six?? [Archive]

delsaner

02-06-2009, 08:42

My coach said that build season next year will only be five weeks instead of six weeks. Do you think that will have an impact on the quality of the robots in next years game? Personally, I do not think that one less week will make that much of a problem as people think it will be (this is coming from reactions I have personally seen). What does everyone else think?

JesseK

02-06-2009, 08:52

"Word is" usually mean it's an unsubstantiated rumor.

I don't think teams will have time to perfect their bots with iterative designs, which may lead to more frustration in the veteran teams that are used to it. Once less week would, imo, also bring a huge time crunch on the logistics of acquiring parts, lead time for maching, welding, powder coating, etc.

Stuart

02-06-2009, 09:13

they wont make it less than 6 weeks. if they do Ill eat a pig . . snout to hoof .

all off this speculation is comming from a posted day on the georga dome's website, and the location of the first saturday of 2010. some how people add up all the regional weeks and the spaces between championship and build season Some one then came up as 5 for the magic number of the build. . . FIRST will skim from the in between regional/championship weeks before they shorten a build season ( if im wrong see the previous pig statement)

EricVanWyk

02-06-2009, 09:42

they wont make it less than 6 weeks. if they do Ill eat a pig . . snout to hoof .

GDC, if you are out there, all I want for Christmas is to see Stuart eat a pig snout to hoof.

Jared Russell

02-06-2009, 09:43

I would ask your coach where he got this information. FIRST has not made any official announcements on the subject.

Andrew Schreiber

02-06-2009, 09:53

they wont make it less than 6 weeks. if they do Ill eat a pig . . snout to hoof .

Not Suzy Q (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=757876&postcount=15)!

GDC if for no other reason than this don't make the build season 5 weeks!

Also, unsubstantiated rumor is unsubstantiated. :) Would it be cool to change things up? Sure, would it be practical? Not really, all it would mean would be I am getting sick in 5 weeks instead of 6, not MUCH of a difference.

Rich Kressly

02-06-2009, 09:56

With the withholding allowance this past year build season never ended for some anyway, so who knows if it would really even matter. Speculation is a funny thing and is rarely worth our time, but I must admit the snout to hoof challenge has me interested. OINK, OINK, BURP?

JaneYoung

02-06-2009, 12:01

One thing to think about when listening to and contributing to rumors, is to consider those who are impacted by them in really awful ways. Teams in Brazil and England, just to name a couple of areas where FRC teams are located, have a difficult enough time as it is without talk of shortening the 6 weeks build. Teams who have the luxury of attending kickoffs and picking up their KoPs at the site location to begin planning and building immediately, may just take that capability for granted. Teams in remote locations do not always have that opportunity and have to work within the constraints that are created by their shortened build time. I would wager that if the build time of 6 weeks were shortened any further, these teams would be further pressed for time in ways many teams have not experienced and don't even think about. Not fun.

delsaner

02-06-2009, 12:08

Form what I heard, from my coach and other, is that build season will be five weeks instead of six. I heard it was because of the positioning of Kick-off, that kickoff may have to be pushed back a week, shortening build season. I'm not saying that this rumor is true, i am just curious about what the results could be if this rumor is true.

Rosiebotboss

02-06-2009, 12:35

...but I must admit the snout to hoof challenge has me interested. OINK, OINK, BURP?

NOOOOOO! Not Wilbur T Pig!!:ahh:

JaneYoung

02-06-2009, 12:36

I'm not saying that this rumor is true, i am just curious about what the results could be if this rumor is true.

Well, the results are already showing that some mentors will pig out, some will make really bad puns, and others will turn into Eeyores. Actually, that's pretty normal for build season predictions.

DarkFlame145

02-06-2009, 13:10

they wont make it less than 6 weeks. if they do Ill eat a pig . . snout to hoof .

Stay away from 1902 please =P We dont wanna be eaten hahaha

Foster

02-06-2009, 13:12

snout to hoof

Just a free piece of advice, start at the hoof first, the snout is the best part.

Second free advice is to wait until November to start the silly bets. I'd suggest the summer to hone your CAD skills, September for programming and then use October for working on welding and machining techniques. November for snouts.

Oh yea, baked vs. fried if you have a choice.

sloteera

02-06-2009, 15:09

Akash Rastogi

02-06-2009, 15:32

omg...

I can't see any reason for this!!!
I think that if the FIRST reduces the season time to five weeks, teams of other countries won't participate.

Every year, we always work with just 4 weeks, because in the first week we don't have de KoP and the last week is reserved for export of the robot to USA. So I really can't imagine how build a robot in just three weeks.

Whatever...

Deep Breath. Relax.

The effects of less than 6 weeks may not be cool for foreign teams.

But if it was just a fun way of limiting our time even more, I'd say bring it.:) (Only for the US though maybe? I'd like to see it happen).

By the way...I love the punny mentors on CD.

Bertman

02-06-2009, 16:05

Personally, IF (and I emphasize if) the build time is reduced to 5 weeks I would like to know with enough lead time to decide weather or not I would pay the entry fee or have an option to opt out if it is later.
The six week build time puts a large strain on my students to build the robot and keep up grades (no pass - no play). I fear that a shorter build time might encourage them to put their attention on activities that would seriously jeopardize their studies.

At this point though, it is all conjecture and we will need to wait for official word if and when there will be a change.

Cory

02-06-2009, 16:30

Not happening. I wouldn't even entertain the thought of it.

It's been 6 weeks forever. Not gonna change now.

Andrew Schreiber

02-06-2009, 16:51

Not happening. I wouldn't even entertain the thought of it.

It's been 6 weeks forever. Not gonna change now.

How long was the playing field carpet? Not saying it is going to happen but FIRST doesn't seem to care if things have been like that FOREVER, it can change, very few things are sacred, Build season could be eliminated all together next year in favor of a build until you compete system. We don't know. I would just appreciate that if something major like that changes FIRST give us a heads up so we can get some sort of plan in place.

Jon Jack

02-06-2009, 17:15

Ian Curtis

02-06-2009, 17:40

Just because kick-off is being moved back a week doesn't mean we're losing a week. The whole season is being shift back. Kick-off is a week later, ship day is a week later. There is nothing to worry about.

Exactly! You have to remember, FIRST has been around for about twenty years. Since days shift every year, this has to have happened before. As a matter of fact, it has, most recently in 2004. So Kickoff has moved up a day every year since 2004, and this year it will be taking one giant leap back. Only to gradually advance for about the next seven years and leap back again. We definitely got a 6 week build period in 2004.

The best/worst part is, you could potentially get all of February break for robot building/testing and ship the following Tuesday! Of course, your technical mentors will be working for the most part (unless they get federal holidays off), but teachers/self employed mentors might be willing to lend a hand. The bad part is, you may find yourself locked out of your workshop for a week (if your school shuts down for the week), which would be a very bad thing indeed.

Kyle Love

02-06-2009, 17:59

Wait until the regional dates come out. That will be a good thing to judge if there will be a change to the build season length. I would not foresee any change to the build length.

Molten

02-06-2009, 19:16

If we only get 5/6 the time, do we only get 5/6 the bill? I'm just thinking if I get one less week of fun, I want a discount.

It's been 6 weeks forever. Not gonna change now.

Now I kind of hope they make it 5 weeks and 6 days or 6 weeks and 1 day. Remember, it doesn't have to be a big change to be a change.

Elgin Clock

02-06-2009, 23:07

Just because kick-off is being moved back a week doesn't mean we're losing a week. The whole season is being shift back. Kick-off is a week later, ship day is a week later. There is nothing to worry about.
<gives thumbs up!>

Wait until the regional dates come out. That will be a good thing to judge if there will be a change to the build season length. I would not foresee any change to the build length.
<gives thumbs up!>

I predict these are the most accurate posts here.

And I'll add, that if anything were to shift, I predict the break between the end of build & start of regional events would be shortened to fit the "ideal" situation you speak of with the start of build being "pushed back" in 2010.

smurfgirl

02-06-2009, 23:18

Somehow, I don't think that we're only going to have a five week build season next year. Like Elgin said, the timing for the rest of the season will most likely be adapted to fit with the slightly later Kickoff. And if it is shorter for some reason... that's just one more challenge everyone will adapt to!

Raumiester2010

03-06-2009, 00:35

How long was the playing field carpet? Not saying it is going to happen but FIRST doesn't seem to care if things have been like that FOREVER, it can change, very few things are sacred, Build season could be eliminated all together next year in favor of a build until you compete system. We don't know. I would just appreciate that if something major like that changes FIRST give us a heads up so we can get some sort of plan in place.

*shudder* don't remind me of OCCRA, i love FIRST because it is so much more professional than OCCRA, if we make FIRST like OCCRA it would also lead to (baseless opinion) even more supercharged teams that it takes 3 robots tag-teaming them to stop...

Also, removing the Time Constraint makes it less challenging. you don't learn the time planning skills you do with our limited time.

Greg Needel

03-06-2009, 09:46

I would be fine with 5 weeks, Bring it on! I look at it as more of a challenge and it would it makes people push themselves even more.

I suspect that the change would not be as drastic as people think. It would just be a call to work more efficiently. Seriously folks I would bet that most teams have at least 3-4 "wasted" meetings where nothing gets done. Give us 5 weeks and we don't have that luxury. I fully support the change, bring it on!

The 40lb allowance makes this even easier as you can keep working on 1/3 of your robot until the event.

Tetraman

03-06-2009, 09:59

I think a 5 week period would be a challenge for sure and I would think it would be a fun challenge given the game we have to build for is easy and simple enough to counteract the one less week.

But the game is never easy, never simple...and I'm quite sure in retrospect it wouldn't be fun.

What would be fun is giving us an extra week and ask to build two robots.

Elgin Clock

03-06-2009, 10:21

I suspect that the change would not be as drastic as people think. It would just be a call to work more efficiently. Seriously folks I would bet that most teams have at least 3-4 "wasted" meetings where nothing gets done. Give us 5 weeks and we don't have that luxury. I fully support the change, bring it on!

Snow days would suck even more.
I recall previous years where we've missed at least a week or more of meetings around the middle of build without access to the shop (really busy would-be productive times).

I can't imagine having that happen & be cut from 6 weeks (current time) to 5 in past years because of that, and now to 4 if that were to happen during a 5-week schedule. :ahh:

GeorgeTheEng

03-06-2009, 11:20

I'll admit that I heard this rumor as well. The source explained it was due to kickoff being delayed AND some week regionals having dates already contracted. Since then I've heard from the same source that the shorter schedule is no longer going to happen.

I agree with those here that have already stated, wait for the official calendar. No use worrying about it until then.

JaneYoung

03-06-2009, 11:40

I've determined that the only thing rumors are good for is putting your knickers in a twist.

Andrew Schreiber

03-06-2009, 13:14

I've determined that the only thing rumors are good for is putting your knickers in a twist.

But it IS funny.

Pjohn1959

03-06-2009, 14:49

But it IS funny.

Besides, what else is there to do???

We only have about elevendy-billion weeks before kick off...:)

Akash Rastogi

03-06-2009, 14:53

I would be fine with 5 weeks, Bring it on! I look at it as more of a challenge and it would it makes people push themselves even more.

Yup, exactly what I said before.

What ever happened the pushing the limits folks? If it is a true rumor, I'd love for it to be true. Bring it.

JaneYoung

03-06-2009, 16:13

But it IS funny.

What's funny?

(not being sarcastic)

Andrew Schreiber

03-06-2009, 16:22

What's funny?

(not being sarcastic)

Watching people think they are true and get all worked up. Just like watching the game hint threads.

And in my defense Jane, I do NOT turn into an Eeyore! I am naturally that way. (Im assuming you meant that one way, if I am WAY off target here disregard the above comment)

Cory

03-06-2009, 17:47

I suspect that the change would not be as drastic as people think. It would just be a call to work more efficiently. Seriously folks I would bet that most teams have at least 3-4 "wasted" meetings where nothing gets done. Give us 5 weeks and we don't have that luxury. I fully support the change, bring it on!

The 40lb allowance makes this even easier as you can keep working on 1/3 of your robot until the event.

I averaged 85 hours a week during the first 6 weeks. I wouldn't want to push that to 102 hours a week for 5 weeks.

David Brinza

03-06-2009, 18:07

I averaged 85 hours a week during the first 6 weeks. I wouldn't want to push that to 102 hours a week for 5 weeks.Isn't working 85 hours/week only half-time labor? ;)

Robert Cawthon

04-06-2009, 11:28

Isn't working 85 hours/week only half-time labor? ;)

Not when you have a full time job on the side. :) Of course, the family would probably complain if one spent much more than the 85 hours a week at robotics (although my wife is very understanding and has done some robotics volunteering herself) and I can understand that. They feel left out. :o

jpmittins

04-06-2009, 12:26

Roger

04-06-2009, 12:35

Of course, if we tell the manufacturing group that it's only five weeks, the programmers get a whole week to work on the robot! :)

JohnBoucher

04-06-2009, 12:50

I would have to purchase a new domain. :ahh:
I already have http://thesixweeks.com/

Andrew Schreiber

04-06-2009, 13:12

Thermal

04-06-2009, 13:59

Consider then that this would be a swift kick in the butt to get yourselves organized.

1) Go to a regional
2) Show up Thursday Morning
3) Look at how many teams are still working on their bot to make it functional/add functionality
4) multiply that by 10 and you'll have the effects of a 5 week build season.

Robert Cawthon

04-06-2009, 14:40

1) Go to a regional
2) Show up Thursday Morning
3) Look at how many teams are still working on their bot to make it functional/add functionality
4) multiply that by 10 and you'll have the effects of a 5 week build season.

I am always trying to find ways to improve the robot (in 2008 we changed the programming Saturday morning!) to get a few more points in the next game. :ahh:

Andrew Schreiber

04-06-2009, 15:04

1) Go to a regional
2) Show up Thursday Morning
3) Look at how many teams are still working on their bot to make it functional/add functionality
4) multiply that by 10 and you'll have the effects of a 5 week build season.

Took your bet in 2008 at Kettering, out of all the teams there I can only think of a couple teams that were not functional, bearing in mind that the whole event was rookies I would consider this a worst case scenario. (sorry rookies) Were they amazing? No, but show me a team that builds the perfect robot and is done by ship day and I will show you either a liar OR the first time travelers.

My point was, that if you are consistently not meeting deadlines you need to change something.

Akash Rastogi

04-06-2009, 15:39

I would hate if the build season became any shorter. My team is unorganized as it is, we have not finished a robot before ship since at least 2005, maybe earlier. Any shorter of a build period would pretty much destroy our chances.

I know of course the easy solution is to organize my team more, but that's a far more difficult task than one would think and I have yet to do.

Well now that you've been able to identify the problem, I'd say its about time to address said problem, even if its with a little bit of help. :)

1) Go to a regional
2) Show up Thursday Morning
3) Look at how many teams are still working on their bot to make it functional/add functionality
4) multiply that by 10 and you'll have the effects of a 5 week build season.

That seems a bit too generalized for all regionals. A few events maybe, but other than that this sounds highly exaggerated. For many people, as Andrew said, they'd need to learn how to adapt to changes, not just hit a brick wall in the face of those changes.

Rick TYler

04-06-2009, 16:04

1) Go to a regional
2) Show up Thursday Morning
3) Look at how many teams are still working on their bot to make it functional/add functionality
4) multiply that by 10 and you'll have the effects of a 5 week build season.

Not necessarily. Using Parkinson's Law (http://www.heretical.com/miscella/parkinsl.html) as our guiding principle, you can see that no matter how many weeks are in the build season, not all teams will be ready before their first tournament. I welcome someone to do the math, but empirically I would say that if N percent of teams are now ready before their first regional, if the build season were five weeks .95N would be ready, and if it were seven weeks, then 1.05N teams would be done. The relationship between "done-ness" and "weeks building" is distinctly nonlinear, and is a very flat curve.

AdamHeard

04-06-2009, 16:27

It's simply not going to happen, can't we panic over something more reasonable, like swine-flu?

demosthenes2k8

04-06-2009, 16:36

Swine flu!
Oh no!
Everywhere we go!
Contagious!
Outrageous!
Oinkoinkoinkoinkoinkoinkoinkoink...
(There are now cases a block away from me...scary)

In all seriousness, I can't see them cutting Build season short, it's not something they'd do. I hope.

EricH

04-06-2009, 19:50

show me a team that builds the perfect robot and is done by ship day and I will show you either a liar OR the first time travelers. Well, I happen to know that 330 cut metal in Week 5, finished their robot by ship, and only made minor changes to said robot after ship in 2005. (Minor change #1: replace a shattered acrylic side panel in Sacramento with Lexan. Minor change #2: place lights and drill holes, Thurs. AM Sacramento. Minor change #3: pull the ball off our tetra-holding device to make it a stick, sometime around the end of Sacramento or the start of L.A. Minor change #4: change the end of said stick for improved performance.)

And no, we didn't time travel.

Molten

04-06-2009, 20:29

Well, I happen to know that 330 cut metal in Week 5, finished their robot by ship, and only made minor changes to said robot after ship in 2005. (Minor change #1: replace a shattered acrylic side panel in Sacramento with Lexan. Minor change #2: place lights and drill holes, Thurs. AM Sacramento. Minor change #3: pull the ball off our tetra-holding device to make it a stick, sometime around the end of Sacramento or the start of L.A. Minor change #4: change the end of said stick for improved performance.)

And no, we didn't time travel.

True, but if you had to make 4 adjustments(no matter how minor) the robot wasn't perfect. I'd rather argue that no robot is truly perfect, but thats for another time...

EricH

04-06-2009, 20:38

True, but if you had to make 4 adjustments(no matter how minor) the robot wasn't perfect. I'd rather argue that no robot is truly perfect, but thats for another time...
Is any robot perfect?

How many adjustments have to be made on a typical top-notch robot? 4? 5? Lost count? I'd argue that if you aren't making small tweaks, even in programming, you a) missed one or b) you don't know how to improve your robot.

Also, note when metal was cut. Week 5, right at the start. Also note the end results of that particular robot. And one adjustment was a simple replacement; the panel took a hard hit from a team that made it their business to try to stop us (emphasis on try). Not bad for a 2-week robot...

AdamHeard

04-06-2009, 20:44

Not bad for a 2-week robot...

I'd argue it was a 6-week robot, as strategizing, testing, etc... from the first 4-weeks was obviously used ruing the last 2-weeks.

Andrew Schreiber

04-06-2009, 20:53

Is any robot perfect?

How many adjustments have to be made on a typical top-notch robot? 4? 5? Lost count? I'd argue that if you aren't making small tweaks, even in programming, you a) missed one or b) you don't know how to improve your robot.

Also, note when metal was cut. Week 5, right at the start. Also note the end results of that particular robot. And one adjustment was a simple replacement; the panel took a hard hit from a team that made it their business to try to stop us (emphasis on try). Not bad for a 2-week robot...

As Adam said, NOT a 2 week robot, if you crated it at the second week THEN it would be a 2 week robot. Until then don't call it a 2 week robot, it is arrogant AND a lie. Besides, did it lose a match? I think it did, therefore it CANNOT have been perfect. Remember, good is not perfect, nor is great.

Akash Rastogi

04-06-2009, 21:08

As Adam said, NOT a 2 week robot, if you crated it at the second week THEN it would be a 2 week robot. Until then don't call it a 2 week robot, it is arrogant AND a lie. Besides, did it lose a match? I think it did, therefore it CANNOT have been perfect. Remember, good is not perfect, nor is great.

Woah woah, guys, calm down. I see nothing as far as arrogant there. You're all just interpreting meanings differently. Just relax please and hold back blatant comments of arrogance and lying.

Bob Steele

04-06-2009, 21:54

I believe that the confusion here is a result of a change in the regional weekends. From what I have gleaned from CD... there will only be 5 regional weekends in the coming season NOT 6 as we have had for a few years.

This is where the 5 weeks thing is generated I believe.

Mark McCleod from team 358 stated:

"I heard through official channels that kickoff is January 9, and the first week regionals are planned for March 4-6.
SBPLI will be a 4th week Regional in 2010.

6 weeks of build would probably put ship date at February 23 if FIRST decides to follow the normal pattern.
Seems like it'll be a typical season."

and in another McLeod post:

"I've heard officially that there will be 5 weeks of regionals/districts/other events in 2010, so with the first week March 4-6, the last week will be the weekend of April 3. So Minnesota will probably tie everything up.

Of course until venue contracts are all signed FIRST cannot make Regional date announcements, and reserve to themselves the right to make necessary adjustments....

This, along with a quick check of the GWCC bookings showing::
04/14/10 - 04/17/10 FIRST (the Championships)
would indicate that the competition season will be 5 weeks, Kickoff on January 9th... Robot Ship...February 23rd.

How the regionals will shake out is anyone's guess.

so 6 week build.... 5 week competitive season...

Chris is me

04-06-2009, 22:14

I know this is rumor that turns out to be unfounded but the more I read about all of the teams worrying the more I wanna say bring it on. We could all use a new kind of challenge. It can be done, and with even more pressure it would be even more intense and exciting.

Besides, for most teams (not us, we don't really have a very modular design ever) build season doesn't really end. You get to keep working on your robot as long as it's under 40 pounds and you can attach it in a day.

RoboMom

07-06-2009, 11:10

http://www.usfirst.org/community/frc/content.aspx?id=454

jpmittins

07-06-2009, 12:01

http://www.usfirst.org/community/frc/content.aspx?id=454

Since that said that shipping closes on 02/23/2010, doesn't that mean build is still six weeks? Time for everyone to calm down, this is just a weird anomaly that had to happen due to when the year started.

Akash Rastogi

07-06-2009, 12:04

http://www.usfirst.org/community/frc/content.aspx?id=454

Awwww maaaan. 6 Weeks??:rolleyes:

Maybe 2011 will be better;)

Stuart

07-06-2009, 21:25

. . . good.

although I must admit I was starting to look forward to the pig thing. hickory smoked for no less than 3 days, with a nice vinegar BBQ sauce . . . .

Sarah H

07-06-2009, 21:30

I dont think that this is true, but i think one week will make a HUGE difference, It may not stop people from making complicated robots but there will be alot more robots crated or bagged unfinished.

David Brinza

07-06-2009, 21:54

According to the 2010 Calendar of Important Deadlines (http://www.usfirst.org/community/frc/content.aspx?id=454), the deadline for Chairman's and WFA submissions (plus website) is Feb 18, five days before the robot shipping deadline.

We don't usually put the "skins" on our robot until just before shipment to protect the vinyl labels, etc. So, 2010 is effectively a five-week build season. Of course, the software team and drivers always want it that way anyway!

Rick TYler

08-06-2009, 19:22

Carrara

08-06-2009, 19:45

I don't think so... if this could happen it will be a giant impact on brazillian teams...

Sloteera said, we have just 4 weeks to work on robot, omg, in 3 weeks made this robot?!?!?!?!?

if this is true, maybe, we won't sleep during the season

hahahahahha....

EricH

08-06-2009, 20:11

How about starting build season the day after Labor Day in September? How would that change the process? What different kinds of lessons could students learn from a five month build season?

(Let's simplify things: I already know that this is not "the way things have always been done." :) )
I smell a very laid-back approach taken, with crunch time being the time known now as build season weeks 3-6.

I know what I'm talking about here, because I'm in a college design competition. Sometime in late August/early September (usually), the rules are released. Now, the general idea stays the same, but the way to get there changes, something on the order of "thou shalt use a lift" or "thou shalt use a 6WD drop-center drive". Competitions are in early March or April.

Guess when my team finishes their planes, even with all that time? I believe this is due to one of the rules of thumb, "Work expands to fill the time allotted."