View Full Version : Adults as Coaches on the field
Our team utilizes a student coach on the field during competitions. Some adults on our team have suggested that we start having an adult on the field as a couch because many of the "good" teams have adults. My thoughts are that this is a high school competition and if we are to prepare our students for real life then why not give them the experience of competition. But this could make it unfair as some teams choose to have adults with many years of experience on the field. What do other teams think about a rule change that only allows students as coachs.
This recent thread (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?p=862952) provides some good insight on the topic.
David Brinza
24-06-2009, 17:02
The subject of adult coaches is also discussed in this FAHA (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77390) thread.
I doubt FIRST will create a rule requiring/forbidding adult coaches, just as they won't tell teams that robots must be 100% student built.
Now that you've got my attention, here's my take:
An adult coach can bring stability to a team that a student cannot. Authority and experience are big factors in effective leadership. All high school sports teams (football, basketball, soccer, baseball) have adult coaches whose performance is of keen interest to the school. Win/loss records often determine whether they stay or go. There isn't that kind of pressure on FIRST teams (or at least not yet), but consistent, "good" teams are well-known and respected by the broad FIRST community. The investment of time, money, and talent in FIRST is worth putting a team's best capability on the field to make good decisions in a match. In most cases, an adult mentor is more qualified to assume that responsibility.
JaneYoung
24-06-2009, 17:20
Our team utilizes a student coach on the field during competitions. Some adults on our team have suggested that we start having an adult on the field as a couch because many of the "good" teams have adults. My thoughts are that this is a high school competition and if we are to prepare our students for real life then why not give them the experience of competition. But this could make it unfair as some teams choose to have adults with many years of experience on the field. What do other teams think about a rule change that only allows students as coachs.
You have good points. I encourage you to read the thread that has been linked, particularly, dlavery's contributions.
If the team wants to have an adult simply because the "good" teams have adults as coaches, the team needs to identify some of these teams that they have in mind, and then look at the coaches to identify what they contribute as the coach. I can guarantee that many of them are excellent strategists. In my opinion, that is a key element in being a good coach for FRC competitions. Also, networking with other teams, communicating with other teams, keeping the drive team focused and steady. The teams that you are looking at have all of those qualities and more, I'm sure. Thing is, those qualities can be found in some student coaches as well. It depends on the team. Just make sure that you are looking at all sides of topic and not just on a superficial level.
Edit: I just went back into the FAHA link and re-read it. Karthik's post is also an excellent source of insight in this area. Read the link that he has provided and the posts of the mentors/coaches that he has highlighted as well. Good stuff.
I know this is your first post, so you probably haven't heard this before. But please search before you post. I personally have been involved in at least 3 threads on this same topic due to lack of searching.
BTW: Welcome to CD.
JaneYoung
24-06-2009, 17:37
I know this is your first post, so you probably haven't heard this before. But please search before you post. I personally have been involved in at least 3 threads on this same topic due to lack of searching.
This is true, Jason, but at the same time, I haven't seen the reasoning that the OP of this thread has presented before. I'm not sure everyone understands the depth of opportunities that the coaching position brings to the game. In the discussions, we often get caught up in the argument and do not talk about the position or the whys.
In my opinion, many teams compete on superficial levels and it takes a few competitions for the light bulb to go on and for the team to say, hm, wonder what makes the difference and why? That is why I value the conferences that are made available to teams at the Championship in Atlanta. The speakers are knowledgeable and wise and have a lot of experience in areas that can help teams move to that next level of competition. This thread could be an opportunity to explore some of that.
Just an .02
Jane
Preface: this is my opinion. Others have a different opinion (re the FAHA thread).
On our team our adult mentors stay where they belong - on the sidelines. As you rightly pointed out - this is a student experience. You learn both from success and failure (sometimes more from failure than success) and you can't fail if no one gives you the opportunity to do so, and you will savor the success so much more if you know it was YOUR effort and YOU bore the risk of failure. We always have a post-action breakdown and look at successes/room for improvement, but in the end the students make the decision and they are the ones that bear the responsibility.
By placing an adult mentor in the coaching role on the field you are depriving a student of the experience. Our best and most dedicated team members have come into their own in a leadership role through being coaches.
There are many things that a good mentor program can do to prepare the on-field coaching team (should be one person and a backup). Leadership training, practice, and teambuilding are all important parts of building an excellent on-field staff and a coach/drive team that works in unison. Bringing junior members of the team onto the field in backup roles prepares them to be coaches over the next few years.
If you need help contact us at www.penfieldrobotics.com and we'll work with your mentors to setup a leadership boot camp and give them the process we use to coach our coaches.
They don't allow mentors to come into the room during chairman's presentations. Why is this any different?
It doesn't mean our mentors don't WANT to be on the field. But we are where we belong - biting our nails in the stands. This is a picture of our lead mentor when we won the Chairman's at Chesapeake - sitting where she was most of the day when not in the pits. In the stands:
http://rollingthunder.smugmug.com/photos/496684149_QmuXb-S.jpg
ttldomination
24-06-2009, 17:53
I was hesitant to post at first, considering that there are already so many threads which have addressed this topic, but I guess I'll go ahead and state my views.
First off, I agree with Mr. OScubed in that I strongly believe that students should be coaches. It's not to say that adults should NOT be coaches, it's that...well, I also believe it's a student experience, and when you have adult coaches, then students can't plan on an even field. Adult coaches can sometimes be overbearing and a student coach might come across as rude if he/she argues with the adult coach.
But then again, I don't want to give the adults the level...of disrespect as to deny them the oppurtunity. No matter how gently someone says "no" a no is a no, and it'll be rude none the less. If an adult understands and believes that he or she should not coach, then it's a whole different thing, but if an adult/mentor steps forward and asks to coach, I couldn't possibly say no.
So..it's one of those age old arguments similar to abortion or gay rights, although not exactly on the same scale. You have people who can argue both sides but until FIRST instigates a rule concerning this matter, I don't think we'll ever have a "right" on this topic.
In the discussions, we often get caught up in the argument and do not talk about the position or the whys.
I sincerely hope this thread doesn't morph as the others did. They almost all start out with a polite post and end in a clash. My suggestion to all who post here, is avoid the clash in your posting. Be careful of your precise wording from the very beginning, otherwise this thread will take a turn. As for me, I think I'm sitting this debate out.
I would just like to add one thought before I leave.
You have people who can argue both sides but until FIRST instigates a rule concerning this matter, I don't think we'll ever have a "right" on this topic.
Even if FIRST were to make a rule regarding the coach. People will argue about whether or not the rule is "right". So the debate goes on...
Our best and most dedicated team members have come into their own in a leadership role through being coaches.
Maybe because they had the benefit of interacting with the many great adult coaches in FIRST?
Chris is me
24-06-2009, 21:40
I agree with the OP in that having a student coach creates another opportunity for the student to learn and be inspired, and that can't be underestimated. I've said that in the other thread, though, if you're interested in my thoughts on the matter.
I totally disagree with the idea that because you want your team to have an additional leadership opportunity, you should force every other team to do it the same way just to be "fair". While I won't regurgitate the standard "FIRST isn't supposed to be fair" argument (though true), some teams benefit more from the additional mentoring and inspiration that an adult coach can bring.
Your FIRST team (and mine) may be oriented around maximizing the learning potential of its students, but that doesn't mean every team has to be that way. Many teams run in a style that puts inspiration FIRST (as well as learning).
Akash Rastogi
25-06-2009, 01:15
... when you have adult coaches, then students can't plan on an even field.
This.
I really did not want to post in this thread until I saw this. I do not understand how you evaluate the skill of a coach based on their age. I honestly don't. If a student has been coaching on their team for 3 years, and an adult has been coaching on another team for 3 years, do they not have the same exact experience and a "level" field? I'm honestly just asking for reasoning for that statement.
If you can't be "even" with them, whatever you feel that means, join them.
Consider this: I come from a team that has always had students coach yet my opinion is to do whatever the heck the team feels.
+$0.02, I will have no other posts in continuing this thread btw. If you'd like to argue, PM . I do not wish to start an argument in the thread like those other flame threads.
Ryan Caldwell
25-06-2009, 08:15
I think you can treat it much like business, sometimes you have a coach (ceo/PM) that has years of experiance, this can be a blessing or a curse. They know the basics how to coach but are adapting to the new game. If you find a student (new hire/PM) they will have only coached this years game. They are basically at the samelevel as the drivers only elected to lead. They communicate in the same generational voice. the downfall is they may not have lead at this pace before and they may not be ready for the chaos of 2min at a FIRST comp. I think allot of it comes down to the people you have in place, it will always be a year to year thing with our team. Do we have a student capable, do we have a mentor capable, who do the students want.
smurfgirl
25-06-2009, 08:34
As others have mentioned, there have been many discussions about student vs. adult coaches here. I have posted in many of those topics, and my opinion remains the same throughout: do what is best for your team. A student coach or an adult coach can work, but it depends on the dynamics and values of your team. You want to choose the coach that is best for your team. On some teams, this may be a student, while on other teams, this may be an adult.
The number one most important thing in a coach is respect: you want a coach that your drive team and your entire team respects. You also want a coach that other teams will respect. And it works both ways... your coach should also respect the members of your drive team, your team, and other teams and their drive teams. Then, of course, you want a coach with a knack for strategy with the ability to plan ahead, think on his/her feet, work with others, and analyze situations well... because that is what a coach does.
There are many great reasons for adult coaches, and there are many great reasons for student coaches. You can find many of them by searching for these great debates. The bottom line remains that you should do what is best for your team, rather than choose something simply because it looks glamorous to you or because "everyone good is doing it". Maybe what they are doing is right for you, but then again maybe it is not. Think critically about your decisions and what is best for your team, and you will go far.
Good luck!
Ellen
camtunkpa
25-06-2009, 15:09
The adult/student coach debate will go on forever. I can tell you I've been on all sides. I was a student coach in 1998, a driver in 1999 coached by a student coach, a driver in 2000 coached by an adult and now I'm an adult coach out on the floor.
I can tell you that coaching as a student and driving coached by a student were some stressful times. In neither case did I feel fully prepared to go out onto the field and compete. It seemed like in both cases things would be very quick to turn into arguments and plans fell apart quickly.
Well in 2000 222 decided to give adult coaches a try. I learned many things from the 2000 season. My adult coach sat back during strategy sessions and still let us students do the talking. The only times he would interject is if strategies were getting too farfetched, unorganized or of course if we asked him to. Our coach during the match play also took a different role. He allowed the drivers to do the thinking for the most part and was there to tell us how much time was in the match, and to talk to the other alliance and make sure everything was going ok for them. We had our first real successful year as a team in 2000. There was little bickering going on after the matches, the coach acted as a shield of sorts when other excited adult mentors didn't agree with how the match went. We went through the next couple years bouncing around different adult coaches who had very different coaching styles. Some were aggressive and dominant coaches and others were too laid back.
In 2004 I began coaching the drivers. I worked hard to find my place on the field. The way I started was I was a spokesman for our team and the drivers would sit back and interject. We did extremely well at our 1st regional going undefeated during the qualifiers and finished the competition as a finalist. We moved onto our second regional where I ran into a stubborn mentor. We were the first pick of our alliance. Our alliance made it all the way to the finals. We lost the first match of the finals and used our timeout after the match because the alliance captain had a mechanical problem. Well the coach was being extremely stubborn and wanted to put a non functional robot out on the field and have us sit out with a completely ready to go robot. After many minutes of going back and fourth i convinced the coach to let us go out and they could continue working on their machine to be ready for the next match. We won the match forcing the finals to 3 matches. 2004 was a huge learning year for me as an adult coach.
After the 2004 season I changed my coaching style for two reasons: #1 was because I wanted my students to be more involved & it seemed like when strategizing with all student drive teams they were somewhat intimidated. I dediced to have the students talk strategy and would interject now and again with ideas. I began using my coaching role as less of an individual coach and more of an alliance coordinator of sorts.
2009 was our most successful year as a team on and off the field. The students did a good job working out strategies. They did such a good job that I was really not much more then a spotter of sorts calling out time and telling the guys what to look out for. I spent the majority of my time making sure everything else was going smoothly with our partners and relaying to my drivers what needed to change. I believe this method of coaching was the best of both worlds and also what allowed us to do so well this year.
I hope this rambling post has given some insite to all sides of the student/adult coach debate.
Remember success in FIRST isn't measured by the trophies. It's measured by the inspiration.
i actually like this rule. on 461 we always have mentors as drive coaches and no student can even try to be a drive coach. and to be honest although adult coaches do have more experience, student coaches can always bring new ideas and ways to accomplish tasks. also, every year the game changes so no matter how much experience someone has they are never quite prepared for what's really out on the field. i say give students a chance!!!
I really did not want to post in this thread until I saw this. I do not understand how you evaluate the skill of a coach based on their age. I honestly don't. If a student has been coaching on their team for 3 years, and an adult has been coaching on another team for 3 years, do they not have the same exact experience and a "level" field?
This.
Leadership/coaching ability/maturity do not depend on age. It's quite possible for a 17-year-old to have those qualities while a 27-year-old does not. And in that sort of case, I'll go with the 17-year-old every time, but if the opposite is true, then I'll go the opposite way.
What would I look for in a coach? Experience, maturity, leadership, calmness under pressure, and some strategic knowledge. Anyone who has those should be able to coach, no matter whether they're a retired engineer, a high school student, an actively working mentor, or a 10-year-old kid (who, incidentally, under FRC rules, could drive or coach).
Jon Jack
25-06-2009, 20:10
Isn't this dead horse beat enough, already? How many of these threads do we have to have every year?
Yes I'm a 'adult coach', but I was also a coach as a student so I have seen things from both sides of the argument. Bottom line is that each team is going to do things their way. Just because a coach is an adult doesn't immediately give a team a competitive advantage, just like having a student coach doesn't put them at a disadvantage. If you look the best (and successful) adult coaches, they are effective communicators and role models for students to follow. Having been a coach at 10 events, I can say that the best coaches are the ones who can effectively communicate and work with their alliance partners.
Want proof? Look at the correlation between WFA/WFFA winners and success on the field (excuse and misspelled names!):
Paul Copioli (217) - WFA, 2 World Championships, 1 World Finalist In 4 Years
JVN (229/148) - WFFA, 1 World Championship
Karthik (1114) - WFFA
Derek Bessette (1114) - WFFA, 1 World Championship, 9 Regional Championships In 4 Years
Travis Covington (968) - 1 World Finalist, 2 Einstein Appearances In 3 Years
Raul Olivera (111) - WFFA, 2 World Championships
Matt Driggs (330) - WFFA, 1 World Championship, 4 Regional Championships, 1 Regional Finalist
Jim Zondag (33) - WFFA
Lucien Junkin (118) - WFFA
Andy Baker (45)- WFA
Ken Patton (65) - WFA
Dave Verbruge (67) - WFA
Kyle Huges (27) - WFA
Andy Bradley (233) - WFFA, 2 Einstein Appearances In 3 Years
Steve Kyramarios (254) - WFFA, Never Finished Worse Than Finalist At A Regional
This list goes on... but we can all agree that WFFA/WFA winners are some of the best role models in FIRST and people we want students to be around. By saying that adults shouldn't be coaching is like saying that you don't want your students working with these great role models. Often times students that get to work with these people are inspired to become better engineers, better role models, better leaders and even go on to coach teams as a mentor.
I know that when I was a student coach, I was inspired by people like Paul Copioli, Matt Driggs and Travis Covington to go on and be a coach after high school. I've taken many lessons I've learned from the people on the list above and used them as guidelines for how to be a better coach and more importantly a better mentor. The WFFA that I won this year is a sign that what I've learned from these great people has moved my students enough to write a phenomenal essay about my impact on them.
NorviewsVeteran
25-06-2009, 20:39
Its starting to sound like the Blue Collar Comedy Tour's "I Believe" sessions, so I will say this:
I belieeeve: that if you are making a decision between a student coach or an adult coach, you are making the wrong decision. You should take in to consideration who you are putting on to the field, not what. And what Jon said.
nlknauss
25-06-2009, 22:04
To quickly add to the value of "adult coaches"...
In my experience as a student driver, students are able to see adult mentors model good networking/collaboration techniques with other people that they met a moment before hand. Certainly something we want all of our students to develop as a part of this experience to add to their toolbox. I think that is one of the characteristics of all the WFFAs and WFAs above and absolutely a value I try to emulate as an adult coach now.
Remember, the value of mentors in FIRST is immeasurable.
Lil' Lavery
25-06-2009, 23:56
On our team our adult mentors stay where they belong - on the sidelines. es that bear the responsibility.
Please cite me something, anything, from FIRST that says mentors "belong on the sidelines" or anything to that effect. This is simply a fallacy.
Teams may OPT for their adult mentors to guide from "the sidelines," and it is a perfectly acceptable strategy. But other teams find a different method, with more involved mentors, suits them better. Just because you prefer your mentors to have a more hands-off approach doesn't mean mentors "belong on the sidelines."
By placing an adult mentor in the coaching role on the field you are depriving a student of the experience. Our best and most dedicated team members have come into their own in a leadership role through being coaches.
And by placing a student on the drive team, you're denying three other students on your team and many more on other teams the experience of working with a (hopefully gifted and inspirational) mentor. It works both ways.
I'm all for both student and adult coaches. It depends on the needs and wishes of your team, and what works best for you. I've spelled out my opinions and individual factors in several other threads about this topic, and I've coached both as a student and as a college mentor. The one thing I do feel important is chemistry, and making sure the drivers and coaches have time to work together before going onto the field (and even from year to year) in order to figure out how to best work with each other.
Chris is me
26-06-2009, 00:02
And by placing a student on the drive team, you're denying three other students on your team and many more on other teams the experience of working with a (hopefully gifted and inspirational) mentor. It works both ways.
On the contrary, would depriving the three students of direct involvement with that mentor for those matches have any sway on whether or not they are inspired to pursue science and engineering careers and challenges?
On the contrary, would depriving the three students of direct involvement with that mentor for those matches have any sway on whether or not they are inspired to pursue science and engineering careers and challenges?
In some cases, absolutely.
I've worked with and known students who definitely never would have pursued science and engineering careers, let alone graduated high school if it wasn't for the guiding influence of their field coaches.
---
*/Aside/*
Each team needs to do what's best for their situation. It's is a tad bit frustrating that we keep having these threads, where certain people/teams feel the need to tell other teams what they're supposedly depriving their students of. If you don't want to have a certain type of coach for your team, that's fine. But there's really no need to get on a high horse and lambaste others in a completely condescending fashion.
Stephen Kowski
26-06-2009, 02:15
On our team our adult mentors stay where they belong - on the sidelines. As you rightly pointed out - this is a student experience.
By placing an adult mentor in the coaching role on the field you are depriving a student of the experience.
where they belong? were they on the sidelines at any other portion of the build? if not then why would this be an exception to the rest of the build period?
did they get less of an experience building the robot because of the involvement of mentors? it seems what is lost somewhere is that this is not a program where the student are on their own all the time.....it is meant to have mentor involvement, for "Inspiration".....
did you miss dave's speech during the kickoff about what separates this from other similar competitions?
AdamHeard
26-06-2009, 02:32
As a student, i preferred working with the best, not working while the best watch from a distance.
I didn't get inspired watching my peers and I, I was inspired watching professionals.
One thing that struck me in the OP is who instigated the change. It appears to me that your team is more student-centered along the spectrum; I think the adult/student coach decision should be made by the students in your case, and I think it should be made for the right reasons - because it would better serve your team and its values/goals, not because "the good teams do it."
You can try alternate coaches at offseason events (IRI, CAGE Match) to see how they work out; then you can make an informed decision come Regional season.
Alan Anderson
26-06-2009, 09:29
As a student, i preferred working with the best, not working while the best watch from a distance.
"The post you are spotlighting already has spotlights."
I didn't get inspired watching my peers and I, I was inspired watching professionals.
"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to AdamHeard again."
EricLeifermann
26-06-2009, 10:40
I really hate to say it but all these topics about
"the way we do it is the right way"
and
"you can't do it that way if you really want to inspire your kids"
is starting to remind me of people arguing about politics and religion. It isn't going to get you anywhere. Let people believe what they want to believe and let teams do what they want to do.
I don't think teams who have an adult or teams who have students coach are really missing out on anything. If they have a way they like to run things who are all of you to say they can't?
Chris is me
26-06-2009, 10:51
I didn't mean to imply that the method I prefer is the only way to inspire people, but that the question of whether an adult coach or a student coach will inspire more (4 inspired versus 3 more heavily inspired) is itself debatable, as is the issue at hand.
I don't think there's anything wrong with healthy debate on the issue at hand. That is, until people start saying that their way is the best and people start taking subtle or not so subtle shots at teams that do it differently.
This is pretty much going to end the same way every single "mentor built" thread is, huh? You'd think FIRST actually encouraging both students and adults to both be field coaches would be a hint that both is the right answer.
JaneYoung
26-06-2009, 11:16
You'd think FIRST actually encouraging both students and adults to both be field coaches would be a hint that both is the right answer.
There's a lot of weight of responsibility that goes with making decisions for FRC teams that are sincerely trying to achieve the goals and mission of FIRST. The responsibilities include teams making their own decisions regarding how they run things and how they are going to achieve success. They are given homework and they are provided guidelines. They are also encouraged to submit Chairmans, videos, business plans. Those reflect how the team has structured itself and how it is implementing methods and ways of sustaining itself and accomplishing the goals it has set.
Maturity on the parts of the mentors, students, and the team, itself - would go a long way in carrying the weight of the responsibility well. By doing that, FIRST removes itself from the position of micro-managing and helicopter parenting, allowing for freedom to explore, create, innovate, and have some good hard fun. Coaching is a part of that.
You'd think FIRST actually encouraging both students and adults to both be field coaches would be a hint that both is the right answer.Not everything needs to have a right answer.
nlknauss
26-06-2009, 11:38
Not everything needs to have a right answer.
Absolutely Nick! That's a part of the experience this program has to offer; there are many solutions to the same problem and they all work! It's up to each team to redesign and retool their solution to increase their effectiveness.
Keri Lynne
26-06-2009, 18:48
Adult coaches have so much to offer on and off the field. Speaking as a driver-I found that when I was controlling the robot on the field it was a comfort to have someone who was experienced in coaching there to easily guide me through the more challenging matches. Since most adult coaches are seasoned veterans, they have lots of advice to offer. Personally, some of the best advice I recieved was from my coach.
It is also good to have an adult around when things go sour. If a match doesn’t turn out exactly the way you hoped it is good to have someone you look up to there to remind you to act professionally and humbly. It seems like adults are more likely to act level headed and accepting in moments of defeat.
One of the things adult coaches have to offer off the field is the connection with the other teams and coaches that can only be built over years of interaction and friendship. It seems like our adult coach knew the coach of almost every team we played with this season, and he introduced me to some remarkable people that he has met over the years. Getting to meet such interesting and influencial people was an absolute joy. There was nothing more exciting than being introduced to someone I had heard to be one of the best coaches in FIRST while just waiting for our match. I dont think this level of connection and communication would be the same without adult coaches on the field.
Working with the mentors is one of the most enjoyable parts of FRC. Learning from someone with years of experience and building friendships with the mentors has personally been one of my favorite parts of this program. I feel that if adult coaches were eliminated, a major part of this would also be lost. Why should this education and bonding end on the field?
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