The Only Constant is Change

[ehochstein]

For those of you who didn't noticed Bill made two blogs today, and in the first one it seems there may be a clue to the game.

A quick wiki:

Nothing endures but change.

From Lives of the Philosophers by Diogenes Laertius Variant translations:
There is nothing permanent except change.
The only constant is change.
Change is the only constant.
Change alone is unchanging.



Maybe the game will constantly change throughout the round?

http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2009/08/good-morning-teams-i-know-teams-are.html


Here is the whole post:
Wednesday, August 5, 2009
Where's Dean

Good Morning Teams,

I know teams are starting to give serious thought to the 2010 season. Before you spend too much time planning and preparing, I want to remind everyone: don’t assume 2010 will be anything like 2009. I’ve already mentioned in this blog that we’re reevaluating everything from the kit of parts to the website. So, like Heraclitus said “the only constant is change”. (Well, what he actually said was in Greek, but that’s what he meant.)

Have you heard about the about the new Public Service Announcement Keanu Reeves filmed for us? The Marketing Department is encouraging TV stations across the country to play it, so if you see it in your area, let me know.

Our Kit of Parts Engineer and my Deputy Director are both at NI week with Dean this week. Dean will be giving the Thursday Keynote “Inspiring Present and Future Engineers to Innovate”. Kate and Frank will be connecting with Engineers from around the country promoting FIRST and recruiting support for FRC.

We received 433 responses to the Kit of Parts survey. Thank you to those of you who participated. We’re taking your input seriously.

157 days until the 2010 Kickoff
See you there!

[BrendanB]

I don't think that the game will change throughout the round, as much as this is stating that every aspect of FIRST will change. As he says websites will change and with that, the criteria for other aspects might change: chairmans, events, heck the robot size and weight could change for all we know(more weight would be nice:rolleyes:)

Just my thoughts

[Stephen of REX]

I don't think that the game will change throughout the round, as much as this is stating that every aspect of FIRST will change. As he says websites will change and with that, the criteria for other aspects might change: chairmans, events, heck the robot size and weight could change for all we know(more weight would be nice:rolleyes:)

Just my thoughts

I think that the 2010 Chairmans guidelines are out, and that they are the same as 2009 roughly.

I think that when Bill says that 2010 will be nothing like 2009, he means that something basic will be changed, like the alliances, or a previously unseen game piece.

Also @BrnedanB: We're all hoping that the weight limit increases! :D

[DanaRocks]

i think the weight is a good point ... they did say somthing about fed ex... so if the dont pull all the way through ...

[RMiller]

I do doubt that weight limits will be increased. My understanding is that the weight is based on OSHA standards for a two man lift.

[Tetraman]

An idea I've had forever was the game would "evolve" as the regional progressed, where after a certain number of rounds a new something would be added to the field, and then again something else would be added and so on.

[Mr. Pockets]

An idea I've had forever was the game would "evolve" as the regional progressed, where after a certain number of rounds a new something would be added to the field, and then again something else would be added and so on.
That'd be really cool, but wouldn't it also cause the teams who had all of their matches later in the tournament to be put at either a serious advantage or disadvantage (depending on whether the extra something made the game easier/more difficult).

Maybe the game will constantly change throughout the round?

How about this: what would happen if there were game pieces of all different shapes and/or colors. What if during the game the values of pieces scored fluctuated. Like say...for the first minute squares are worth 2 points circles are worth 5 and after the first minute passed they switched. The only thing is that it would make tallying the score absolute heck so I doubt they'd do that.

[Tetraman]

How about this: what would happen if there were game pieces of all different shapes and/or colors. What if during the game the values of pieces scored fluctuated. Like say...for the first minute squares are worth 2 points circles are worth 5 and after the first minute passed they switched. The only thing is that it would make tallying the score absolute heck so I doubt they'd do that.

I like this, only instead of changing per minute, the points and places to score change each match, yet still maintain an equal balance for qualifying points ect.

[OZ_341]

I have a completely unfounded feeling that our regional travel choices will somehow be more limiting this year. Whether its by hard rules, encouragement, or financial incentives, they could stretch the donation farther by limiting the shipping of robots.
If you think about donated shipping in terms of miles, then FIRST could service more teams for the same donation amount, my encouraging more teams to compete locally, especially for their second regional.

Just a guess. :)

[thefro526]

Perhaps FIRST as we know will change to fit the times? With most teams being hit by the economical situation we're in it'd be a smart decision by all to begin cutting costs where ever possible, and we've already seen this with the new entrance fees. Also, rumor has it that the District System will be implemented outside of Michigan, allowing for smaller, lower budget events with more matches and a similar level of excitement. I think the concept of change needs to be applied to FIRST as a whole, rather than just the game.

[Mr. Pockets]

I have a completely unfounded feeling that our regional travel choices will somehow be more limiting this year. Whether its by hard rules, encouragement, or financial incentives, they could stretch the donation farther by limiting the shipping of robots.
If you think about donated shipping in terms of miles, then FIRST could service more teams for the same donation amount, my encouraging more teams to compete locally, especially for their second regional.
Personally I'm interested in seeing if any other states end up adopting a system similar to the one used in Michigan in the coming season. I'm not sure if you were referring to a similar idea, but last year almost all of the events were local (local here being within two hours driving). That meant that shipping costs were were more or less the cost of getting a trailer for comps (I'm not totally sure on this fact, someone correct me if I'm wrong).

Edit: Fancy that, thefro526 beat me to the punch.

[OZ_341]

Personally I'm interested in seeing if any other states end up adopting a system similar to the one used in Michigan in the coming season. I'm not sure if you were referring to a similar idea, but last year almost all of the events were local (local here being within two hours driving). That meant that shipping costs were were more or less the cost of getting a trailer for comps (I'm not totally sure on this fact, someone correct me if I'm wrong).

Edit: Fancy that, thefro526 beat me to the punch.

Yes, areas with large concentrations of teams, like PA, NJ, etc. could do a Michigan style system. Less concentrated areas would have to do something modified. But I have no foundation for my guesses, so I'm going to stop talking now. :D

[Tetraman]

NY could go with the same Michagan system, so long as they keep the trademark regionals/dates for those regionals.

Cause...you know...FLR is pretty much a staple of FIRST now.

[ttldomination]

What if the score gets affected by a period of time? Back in 07, we got points for having tubes in a row or in a column where the number of tubes in a row, or x, would have your score be 2^x.

In the same manner, what happens if you gain more points as the time progresses? The simplest implementation of this would be king of the hill. Whichever robot is on top is gaining points as time goes on. But this could also be true for game pieces that sit on a platform or robots who sit in a particular section of the field.

[BrendanB]

What if the score gets affected by a period of time? Back in 07, we got points for having tubes in a row or in a column where the number of tubes in a row, or x, would have your score be 2^x.

In the same manner, what happens if you gain more points as the time progresses? The simplest implementation of this would be king of the hill. Whichever robot is on top is gaining points as time goes on. But this could also be true for game pieces that sit on a platform or robots who sit in a particular section of the field.

Didn't the 2001 game or the 2000 game, whichever had the the 4 robots on one alliance have this same idea of the quicker you completed the task the more points you got?

At least I thought it did, I just watched a couple of videos and didn't read the rules or anything of the kind.:o

[EricH]

Didn't the 2001 game or the 2000 game, whichever had the the 4 robots on one alliance have this same idea of the quicker you completed the task the more points you got?

At least I thought it did, I just watched a couple of videos and didn't read the rules or anything of the kind.:o
Yes, 2001 had that. The sooner you E-stopped, the better.

Only problem is, you really need all the robots on the same alliance. It's safe to say that 2001 was the least-liked game in FRC history.

[BrendanB]

Thanks,

Based on the three videos I saw, it was enough for me i mean, come on no defense or other robots to combat with at the same time.:(

[Mr. Pockets]

Yes, 2001 had that. The sooner you E-stopped, the better.

Only problem is, you really need all the robots on the same alliance. It's safe to say that 2001 was the least-liked game in FRC history.
I can definately see why that wouldn't have been well liked. One of the best parts of the games I've seen (overdrive and lunacy) was the potential for the game to be winable by either team up until the very end (this seemed particularly true in lunacy due to super cells and dumpers). The idea of a team "completing" its task before time is up seems like it might make for pretty short and boring matches. It's one thing that I'd rather didn't change.

[Chris is me]

"The only constant is change" is a hint that probably applies to every season of FIRST.

I honestly think FIRST looks on Chief Delphi and makes a game based on what everyone's summer projects are. Basically, this year's game will have no tactical advantage to a swerve drive. Bold prediction?

[JaneYoung]

It would also be wise to heed the words of warning and not assume anything for the 2010 season - as was so clearly stated.

[EricH]

It would also be wise to heed the words of warning and not assume anything for the 2010 season - as was so clearly stated.
The same warning that was given for the 2009 season, in fact.

I think it's safe to assume that 1) there will be a use for the control system and 2) we will be able to get a second set of components should we wish to. I would also guess that the game involves robots.

[Karibou]

I hate to bring back a first page topic, but...
How about this: what would happen if there were game pieces of all different shapes and/or colors. What if during the game the values of pieces scored fluctuated. Like say...for the first minute squares are worth 2 points circles are worth 5 and after the first minute passed they switched. The only thing is that it would make tallying the score absolute heck so I doubt they'd do that.

That would fit quite well with the speculations made here (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78000).
:/

I'm not really sure what to make of the quote. With all of my speculations, I've been trying to figure out how the new PC could fit in with everything, but I haven't come up with anything that fits together yet.

[NickE]

How about this: what would happen if there were game pieces of all different shapes and/or colors. What if during the game the values of pieces scored fluctuated. Like say...for the first minute squares are worth 2 points circles are worth 5 and after the first minute passed they switched. The only thing is that it would make tallying the score absolute heck so I doubt they'd do that.How hectic scoring would be really depends on how accurate real-time scoring can be for the given game.

For example, playing overdrive (where the real-time scoring was almost always the final score) with changing ball values would be alot easier to score than lunacy (real time scoring usually off) with changing ball values.

With all of my speculations, I've been trying to figure out how the new PC could fit in with everything, but I haven't come up with anything that fits together yet.With the proper software, some USB ports and an Ethernet port, it could be a replacement driver station.

[Mr. Pockets]

With the proper software, some USB ports and an Ethernet port, it could be a replacement driver station.
(Shrug) For all we know it might be required to have that as your driver station.

By the way, there was once a time (a.k.a. before I visited CD) when I would never have imagined blog posts like these to have cryptic secrets.

[ATannahill]

I really shouldn't be feeding this but.......the only thing for certain is uncertainty (http://www.smartlyrics.com/Song664069-Darryl-Worley-Sounds-Like-Life-To-Me-lyrics.aspx)

[Karibou]

If the PC is an upgrade to the driver's station, then there's got to be a reason why we'd need an actual computer, rather than just a screen and a few buttons, which is what I've been trying to piece together to no avail.

Edit: Nathan, they really don't have THAT cryptic secrets to them XD We're just geeks who get too bored during the summer and begin to over-analyze the smallest bits of information that become available to us, even when they most likely mean nothing at all.

Also, mods, should this topic be in the Rumor Mill instead? :/

[Alan Anderson]

If the PC is an upgrade to the driver's station, then there's got to be a reason why we'd need an actual computer, rather than just a screen and a few buttons, which is what I've been trying to piece together to no avail.

The simplest reason I can guess at is that the Classmate PC ended up costing less than a sufficiently robust fully custom solution (at least at the quantities we're talking about for FRC).

[Stephen of REX]

The simplest reason I can guess at is that the Classmate PC ended up costing less than a sufficiently robust fully custom solution (at least at the quantities we're talking about for FRC).

What if the PC isn't part of the control system, but part of the robot!:eek:

But in all seriousness, it would let each team have a dashboard program running on their OI for monitoring robot stats. (Personally I can't wait to try plugging an eye piece into it so I have a HUD while piloting the robot.)

[Big Kid]

The classmate PC is a great tool for us if its for the driver station, especially if its the Touch screen version of it, it would make the operator controls so much cooler (i prefer joysticks still for driver), and just because I began making a Heads-Up Display for our robot for next year, GREAT TIMING FIRST!

[biojae]

The classmate PC is a great tool for us if its for the driver station, especially if its the Touch screen version of it, it would make the operator controls so much cooler (i prefer joysticks still for driver), and just because I began making a Heads-Up Display for our robot for next year, GREAT TIMING FIRST!

if it is the TouchScreen version and the touch data is sent to the robot, then my work this fall is practically wasted :(

[Big Kid]

if it is the TouchScreen version and the touch data is sent to the robot, then my work this fall is practically wasted :(

Well all i have to say is continue what your doing you never know, and even if it is you can still integrate that with the new or old system if you'd like you'd only have two touch screen instead of one

[Ryan Simpson]

Going back to the actual game, could there be a constantly moving field? Then, drive teams would have to pay attention to both the robots and the field.

[miketwalker]

Going back to the actual game, could there be a constantly moving field? Then, drive teams would have to pay attention to both the robots and the field.

This is something that, unfortunately perhaps, never occur within FIRST. Although sometimes large and more expensive objects do occasionally show up (2003s ramps, 2007's rack, etc) you have to keep in mind that teams need to be able to build a field or at least the important parts without spending their entire budget. Furthermore, anything beyond casters is pretty tough to make reliable.

A perfect example is 2004's ball release system. A simple motor assembly was created and wired into the scoring system to rotate a trap door to release balls onto the field. By the Friday of Week 1 regionals there was a need for a volunteer on each side with a rod to whack at the thing to release the balls. It's just very difficult to make mechanized components on the field and still be able to guarantee match consistency. For example, in 2004s case, imagine a match where theres a minimal point difference, something where a team won by one ball. However, the other team had to wait an additional 5 seconds for their balls to release. Who is to say that wouldn't change the match?

Don't get me wrong, I really have been crossing my finger that something like an AndyMark/FIRST collaboration (*cough* *cough* You know you want to Mark...) could try out some simple mechanical gates or trap doors like in 2004 and have a go at making a reliable setup. Plus, with something like AndyMark in the loop you know the mechanism used in the game could be purchased by teams or machined since their CADs are usually available, especially in a case like this. But trust me, an entire field moving... that's not something on the horizon. Hopefully some sort of moving component or input triggered game piece/component will be in the cards one day soon though.

[EricVanWyk]

if it is the TouchScreen version and the touch data is sent to the robot, then my work this fall is practically wasted :(

Even if it is a touch screen class mate, your work is not at all wasted. You learned a lot, and your skills will definitely be relevant. Document it well and put it on your resume. Post on CD when it gets you a cool job!

[biojae]

Even if it is a touch screen class mate, your work is not at all wasted. You learned a lot, and your skills will definitely be relevant. Document it well and put it on your resume. Post on CD when it gets you a cool job!

the touchscreen actually is the easy part. the other 80% is getting the robot to follow the path correctly

and that involves physics! and math!

[Jonathan Norris]

For me this is a very telling blog post by Bill. If major change is coming, I am totally for it. I have recently come under the thought that FIRST needs to start thinking about major change in its organization in order to reach its goal of: "To transform our culture by creating a world where science and technology are celebrated and where young people dream of becoming science and technology heroes."

The current model that FIRST uses has run its course, its done a fantastic job of getting the students involved and inspired by Science and Technology, but we aren't reaching enough students to 'transform culture' and invoke lasting positive change. In my opinion FIRST has been very stagnant since 2006, and really needs to shake things up to accelerate the growth and influence of FIRST.

Constant evolving change is the force that powers the most innovative companies in the world, many of whom support FIRST. It is this type of innovative change that FIRST needs to look for, enough refining the current model, at some point you need to accept the risks and take big adventurous steps towards reach that ultimate goal. I'm not talking about a major change in how the game is played, its got to be bigger then that.

[JesseK]

With all of FIRST's cost-cutting measures, I expect to see a smaller field, smaller robots and lower weight limits. This significantly reduces shipping costs, especially when you multiply 20lbs by 1500 teams.

Other than that I maybe expect to see a cone, rhombus, or trapezoidal-shaped game piece since another constant of change is to move away from the standard circle-triangle-square game pieces.

[DonRotolo]

Personally I'm interested in seeing if any other states end up adopting a system similar to the one used in Michigan in the coming season. It was announced last year at NJ that if they couldn't get something like that together for 2010, then it would be 2011. It won't be 2010, but it is coming without a doubt.the only thing for certain is uncertaintyDidn't Heisenberg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heisenberg) say that?

Reading it carefully., I think Bill is referring to the basic structure of FIRST, not as much about the game per se. Jonathan Norris said it well.

[Chris is me]

I'm personally hoping the district model does not come to my state, if only because I want to participate in FIRST rather than a robotics competition...

If the point system is changed, then I'd be happy with it. The Midwest (Wisconsin / Illinois / Minnesota) region would be a good fit, with over 100 teams between the three states. Saving money never killed anyone, and my team would LOVE to do 3 events and a State event for less than we pay now.

I'm just hoping that the District "pilot" isn't taken as a runaway mega success and absolutely nothing is changed from it and everyone has to do districts everywhere, as there are many parts to the system that don't work well with many regions, or sit well with many teams (Pretty sure a lot of teams want to travel...)

[Akash Rastogi]

I'm personally hoping the district model does not come to my state, if only because I want to participate in FIRST rather than a robotics competition...

If the point system is changed, then I'd be happy with it. The Midwest (Wisconsin / Illinois / Minnesota) region would be a good fit, with over 100 teams between the three states. Saving money never killed anyone, and my team would LOVE to do 3 events and a State event for less than we pay now.

I'm just hoping that the District "pilot" isn't taken as a runaway mega success and absolutely nothing is changed from it and everyone has to do districts everywhere, as there are many parts to the system that don't work well with many regions, or sit well with many teams (Pretty sure a lot of teams want to travel...)


I have faith in FiM in that they'll take the survey and evaluate it and make changes. ...Hey, its like a Beta test :rolleyes:

[EricH]

I have faith in FiM in that they'll take the survey and evaluate it and make changes. ...Hey, its like a Beta test :rolleyes:
There are some definitely interesting results. I've looked at the tables, so I can say this, but some of the calls on the structure were not exactly expected. Very few items (1) had less than 50% approval, but there were a few with relatively high dissatisfaction rates (relatively high in this case is > 10%--that's kind of significant in this type of group).

If the geography and the points can be worked out, as well as things like how can a team play outside their "home" district without penalty, I think this could certainly be a worthwhile change.