View Full Version : [FTC]: FTC Game Announced
ttldomination
12-09-2009, 17:07
It's Funny that I would make this post, considering I was probably the last one on these forums to see it. :D.
The game this year is called Hot Shot.
http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/ftc/content.aspx?id=962
My first impression is...wow.
Alex Cormier
12-09-2009, 17:15
I want to play...
Chris is me
12-09-2009, 17:42
I can't say how much I want to play this game. Too bad, I guess... guess this is what college feels like :/
If I had time, I'd dig in a manual and read all the technicalities, but I wanna see something done... a robot like 93 in 2004 that has a big net to catch all of the balls the autoloaders release, or an intake that camps along the bottom as it pushes the load lever in autonomous. A "dbot" that grabs the center lever and drives fast around the track (or even gets in the low goal) to make scoring in the goal impossible. An arm that reaches into the High Goal.
Look for more Aim High flywheel shooters! It's the cool thing to do apparently.
ttldomination
12-09-2009, 17:46
I now regret suggesting to end the FTC venture to 100% pursue the VRC venture. It will indeed be "fun"
Chris is me
12-09-2009, 18:07
I change my statement above. I want to play this game with a Vex robot!
ttldomination
12-09-2009, 18:15
See, I don't think VEX would have the advantage in this game. The powerful shooters will have the edge, and with this year, you have *8* DC motors allowed and the list of extra materials allowed is, in short, AMAZING.
Well, I've unofficially associated myself to a team...in Canada...over 3000 miles away from my location...You gotta love FIRST.
Chris is me
12-09-2009, 18:29
Well, I meant if everyone had Vex. I would like to play this if it were VRC, because I have little idea what I'm doing with the FTC kit, don't have one, am not in high school, etc.
Actually, this is my very first robotics team's last year in existence. I wonder if they'd like some help...
Lowfategg
12-09-2009, 19:37
Looks like you guys are going to have some fun this year.
It seems like just the game to regain some interest in the FTC platform. That being said, all the PVC pipe has me worried. Someone is going to take down the center goal.
Andrew Schuetze
12-09-2009, 20:40
Once you get a look at the field bill of materials, you will find an iron pipe hidden inside the center PVC which has an iron flange bolted to the center plywood platform. I do agree that there will be serious game play and lots of action again this year.
Andrew Schuetze
12-09-2009, 20:43
So I am interested in hearing from teams what they think of the design of this year's game. Scoring options, end game with shooting out of the field...
ttldomination
12-09-2009, 21:35
So I am interested in hearing from teams what they think of the design of this year's game. Scoring options, end game with shooting out of the field...
I've talked with a team leader, and we put our heads together and came out with 100% proven design, that we've seen perform, and we can get it to perform even better, and it all happened in about 30 minutes. :P
One thing that I was thinking of during this "end game" was that teams will try to get ready and set, and then they will unload. The thing about launching balls is that it can be mest up easily. A defensive robot would simply have to ram the shooting robot and then that can easily mess up any shooting, especially if the other robot is sporting some omnis. Just a though. :P
Looks like you guys are going to have some fun this year.
It seems like just the game to regain some interest in the FTC platform. That being said, all the PVC pipe has me worried. Someone is going to take down the center goal, and it should be fun to watch.
Do you mean like..."literally" take it down or like ... score a lot of points? And the robots' extensions are limited this year, so I don't think any robot can wage too much damage to it.
TO EVERYONE, involved and not involved, READ THE RULES!!!! Compared to last year, the game is WAY different, and the robot rules are even more different.(Including the servo/motor numbers).:P
This is a coooool game.
So many game options and strategies.... Plus the out-of-field goals and bonus balls are a freaky twist.
Some penalties will be hard to call... like goal blocking..... Sounds like the "Interferance" penalty in Overdrive.
We're a team that likes to show scoring prowess in Auto.
Touching the center goal's spin-bar is a 5 point penalty in auto, but I wouldn't put it past another team to hit it anyway to make scoring difficult for us in auto.
Seems like the penalty should be bigger... 5 point penalty vs 80 points in auto+regular play.
Lowfategg
12-09-2009, 22:16
Do you mean like..."literally" take it down or like ... score a lot of points? And the robots' extensions are limited this year, so I don't think any robot can wage too much damage to it.
I meant literally until Andrew Schuetze informed us about the metal base and pole is rides on.
Should be awesome to watch.
ttldomination
12-09-2009, 23:42
This game will definitely be fun to watch. :D
Akash Rastogi
13-09-2009, 01:51
Not gonna lie. I can't wait for this game. I can see some highly competitive robots going down on the field but the ones who will be the clearcut winners will be those who can multitask at 100% efficiency on all fronts IMO.
Kudos to the GDC and FIRST
blackiceskier
13-09-2009, 11:10
this years game is cool and it will make the robots made interesting there is a down side to this years game thought. there are so many penalties and they deduct points for everything, a defnesive game is not really easy to do with out being penalized for it at every turn
Chris is me
13-09-2009, 12:01
this years game is cool and it will make the robots made interesting there is a down side to this years game thought. there are so many penalties and they deduct points for everything, a defnesive game is not really easy to do with out being penalized for it at every turn
That's the whole point of penalties, to discourage behavior that would make the game worse. So I would suggest starting to plan defensive strategy around the penalty book right away.
As for my design ideas... yet again I find myself thinking "perhaps I should just do exactly what 1625 did one year..."
Very cool game... and the allowed parts list is pretty intense!
One question though on the allowed parts list
<R5.b.7> Any NXT compatible sensor from HiTechnic, including the NXT Touch Sensor Multiplexer, NXT Sensor Multiplexer <snip>
Does this exist anywhere? It's not available from Hi Technic on their website?
ttldomination
13-09-2009, 12:41
Very cool game... and the allowed parts list is pretty intense!
One question though on the allowed parts list
<R5.b.7> Any NXT compatible sensor from HiTechnic, including the NXT Touch Sensor Multiplexer, NXT Sensor Multiplexer <snip>
Does this exist anywhere? It's not available from Hi Technic on their website?
http://parts.ftcrobots.com/store/default.aspx?CategoryID=163&by=9&c=1
You'll find most of the parts are available on that website.
That's the whole point of penalties, to discourage behavior that would make the game worse. So I would suggest starting to plan defensive strategy around the penalty book right away.
As for my design ideas... yet again I find myself thinking "perhaps I should just do exactly what 1625 did one year..."
I find myself thinking that a lot but with a couple different team numbers. :D
Rick TYler
13-09-2009, 13:31
In another thread someone said there is a new chain-and-sprocket set available. I don't see it on the LEGO/Pitsco/Tetrix/FTC Website. Can anyone point me to this?
Another rumor I heard is that there is a new version of the motor speed controller which includes current limiting to reduce the number of burned out motors (anyone want to buy a one-gallon Ziploc full of 12-volt paperweights?). Anyone have facts? I'm not all that thrilled about spending over $400 to replace all our controllers, but if that's what it takes to reduce what we spend to replace burned out motors it might be worth it.
Thanks in advance.
Akash Rastogi
13-09-2009, 13:35
Hehehehe....RC and I were excited enough for this game to even do a collab on this. :D Should be extremely fun.
ttldomination
13-09-2009, 15:07
In another thread someone said there is a new chain-and-sprocket set available. I don't see it on the LEGO/Pitsco/Tetrix/FTC Website. Can anyone point me to this?
Another rumor I heard is that there is a new version of the motor speed controller which includes current limiting to reduce the number of burned out motors (anyone want to buy a one-gallon Ziploc full of 12-volt paperweights?). Anyone have facts? I'm not all that thrilled about spending over $400 to replace all our controllers, but if that's what it takes to reduce what we spend to replace burned out motors it might be worth it.
Thanks in advance.
The new Chain-sprocket set might be the VEX ones, I don't think there are any ones for FTC, yet.
I haven't heard the second rumor.
Another rumor I heard is that there is a new version of the motor speed controller which includes current limiting to reduce the number of burned out motors (anyone want to buy a one-gallon Ziploc full of 12-volt paperweights?). Anyone have facts? I'm not all that thrilled about spending over $400 to replace all our controllers, but if that's what it takes to reduce what we spend to replace burned out motors it might be worth it.
.
We're willing to buy up any used motor speed controllers from anybody if they are trading up as long as they are still in working condition (offer also is open anyone that is moving to vex permanently).
See attached for the picture of the chain and sprocket set.
They are still finalizing it.. should be available for sale shortly.. (I didn't get a definite date).
Lowfategg
13-09-2009, 20:06
See attached for the picture of the chain and sprocket set.
They are still finalizing it.. should be available for sale shortly.. (I didn't get a definite date).
Now that is what I call chain and sprockets! Looks like #25 chain to me. Those sprockets might be useful on FRC robots as well, since they look to be made of aluminum (lightweight).
ttldomination
13-09-2009, 20:23
HOLY CRAP
CHAIN AND SPROCKET. ... I want to cry....
Chris is me
13-09-2009, 23:27
Those chains and sprockets look much more able to withstand the forces of a drivetrain than the Vex kit, which screwed me over during my hasty rebuild in 2008 :/ (I didn't test it, my bad). Good job Tetrix. If there's one thing I like about the FTC kit, it's metal gears (and now chain)
Rick TYler
14-09-2009, 00:21
Those chains and sprockets look much more able to withstand the forces of a drivetrain than the Vex kit, which screwed me over during my hasty rebuild in 2008
You are right, #25 steel chain is going to be stronger than a little plastic chain. It's also going to be greasier, heavier, more expense, take up more room, and be harder to install and size. The right part for the right job. I suspect the decision to use standard #25 chain (if that is what it is) has a lot more to do with finding an off-the-shelf part that doesn't require engineering, test and manufacturing than it does with providing the perfect technical solution for our robots. The advantage is lower cost than if they had custom-made a metal chain.
VRC 418 had the little VEX chains in its drivetrain and went through two tournaments and the World Championships without a single failure. They were finalists in the Technology Division.
VRC 417 had the little VEX chains in its drivetrain and went through two tournaments and the World Championships without a single failure.
VRC 575 had the little VEX chains in its drivetrain and went through three tournaments and the World Championships without a single failure. They won the Think Award, came in second place in the World Championships Programming Skills Challenge, and had the highest recorded competition score of the year in PSC. You can see a pretty good picture of the drivetrain here: http://www.vexforum.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=3391&catid=searchresults&searchid=347651.
Given the yards of #35 chain I've seen on the floor of FRC fields over the years, I'd conclude that it is entirely unsuited to drivetrains, too. :)
It's not the chains, it's how they are used. They are poorly suited for a heavy-lift application, but we've had terrific luck with them in drivetrains, and for "medium lift." In 2007 we used them to drive the lifting mechanism for the softballs, and they never failed (frankly, I was surprised).
As you mentioned in your post -- testing is good.
Lowfategg
14-09-2009, 00:44
You are right, #25 steel chain is going to be stronger than a little plastic chain. It's also going to be greasier, heavier, more expense, take up more room, and be harder to install and size. The right part for the right job. I suspect the decision to use standard #25 chain (if that is what it is) has a lot more to do with finding an off-the-shelf part that doesn't require engineering, test and manufacturing than it does with providing the perfect technical solution for our robots. The advantage is lower cost than if they had custom-made a metal chain.
#25 chain is vastly stronger than vex chain. (114 lb load)
Greasier? If its greasier that means less friction and less wear. (unless you are afraid of getting your hands a little dirty)
Heavier? Last time I check, more weight means more traction. For the bonus stronger chain add, its a non-issue.
More expensive? 4 ft of vex chain $14.95, Mcmaster 4 ft #25 chain $12.96
Take up more room? Its stronger than vex chain so you don't need to double it up like you do in vex.
The fact that kids are now using industry standard parts is a good thing! I believe using steel chain is a great idea for FTC, we used its extensively on our drive base this year for FRC without a single failure. You are almost never going to see those sorts of loads in FTC.
I still love vex though. Every system has its flaws and its benefits. Whether it be VRC or FTC, they are both great programs.
Chris is me
14-09-2009, 01:12
You are right, #25 steel chain is going to be stronger than a little plastic chain. It's also going to be greasier, heavier, more expense, take up more room, and be harder to install and size. The right part for the right job. I suspect the decision to use standard #25 chain (if that is what it is) has a lot more to do with finding an off-the-shelf part that doesn't require engineering, test and manufacturing than it does with providing the perfect technical solution for our robots. The advantage is lower cost than if they had custom-made a metal chain.
I carefully worded my post to avoid saying "better", since in many applications I'd prefer a tiny chain (e.g. my robot's end effector would suck without it), but for heavy, pushing drivetrains (think Quad Quandry, super geared down) it didn't really cut it for my team. Certainly didn't help that I didn't tension the chain very well, but even after fixing that I ended up throwing chain a lot.
Akash Rastogi
14-09-2009, 01:24
mmmmm real chain and sprockets :p
So at least FTC is willing to make the improvements people want to see. Yet another kudos. But the real change will be seen if the sprockets aren't ridiculously priced....
>.>
One question though on the allowed parts list
<R5.b.7> Any NXT compatible sensor from HiTechnic, including the NXT Touch Sensor Multiplexer, NXT Sensor Multiplexer <snip>
Does this exist anywhere? It's not available from Hi Technic on their website?
http://parts.ftcrobots.com/store/default.aspx?CategoryID=163&by=9&c=1
You'll find most of the parts are available on that website.
Nope.. that's the touch multiplexer - I want to know about the Sensor Multiplexer and the comment that you can use a Power Functions battery pack to power it...
So... is this (the Sensor multiplexer - NOT the touch multiplexer) available anywhere?
... I'm so sick of dealing with balls for game pieces ...
Someone please tell me they're at least structurally rigid and not squishy?
Chris is me
14-09-2009, 12:09
They're wiffle balls, so they're rigid and smooth. Maybe jamming won't be so bad.
Perhaps the game piece is redeemed by the fact teams may use pneumatics (http://mindstorms.lego.com/NXTLog/ProjectDisplay.aspx?id=bc5c3fd5-34ad-49c9-8fa9-baa75fdbc76a) per R5.b.5 (pg 28) and the additional usable materials in the next section. Though pneumatics may overdo it for some teams, it's nice to know they're available.
I wonder if my robotics students will have a list of requirements ready to discuss when I get there tomorrow ... hmm ... or at least a strategy nailed down ... or have at least read the rules ...
Chris is me
14-09-2009, 15:40
Knowing pneumatics are available changes my mockup design (that I'll never actually build) significantly... mmm (CENSORED BY AKASH) anyone?
I might draw some rough sketches of a concept I have later, all of this other game design makes me want FRC to come here.
ttldomination
14-09-2009, 18:54
Nope.. that's the touch multiplexer - I want to know about the Sensor Multiplexer and the comment that you can use a Power Functions battery pack to power it...
So... is this (the Sensor multiplexer - NOT the touch multiplexer) available anywhere?
Well when all else fails, either email someone or google it. :D. I googled it and this is what I found http://www.mindsensors.com/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=82
Hope that helps.
And for the chain, does anyone know the release date? It would be kinda bad to design something to require chain, but then find out it doesn't get released until January, which would be after some of the tournaments.
Thanks.
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