[BB] 2010 Game Hint #1

[keehun]

Was that banana image a prank by a mentor earlier? I just had to ask and get it out of my system...

[Chris is me]

Was that banana image a prank by a mentor earlier? I just had to ask and get it out of my system...

Check your Reputation comments. :)

[Trent B]

Lots of good ideas similar to what I came up with already so I don't feel the need to repeat.

I must say I am intrigued if this is a permanent field element how well it could stand up to some of the hits robots make on field elements assuming it is 1/4" lexan.

Regardless of whether or not it is fake the Banana thing made me think of Have A Banana productions ending to the animation if memory serves me right.

Edit: That Knex kit is in my basement and was built many times.

[gallo26]

I find it very hard to believe that if in fact that part is a junction for a track, that balls would be placed there as to be scored or for robots to get. In some way, the balls should roll along that track. If it were to just sit there, there would be no reason to waste time cutting out an arc in the lexan. But because there IS a cut, it makes me think its something AFTER the goal. In 2006 all of the balls would be shot into that upper goal, and there was a channel that ran those balls into a feeder box for human players.

My belief is, And I will try to CAD it up as best as I can, That there will be soccer sized balls on the playing field. I doubt that they would be colored for each alliance, But they could be colored for different point values. There is a goal in the middle of the field, suspended up high, 10'-12' in a triangle shape. Similar to the opening in 2006, but there are 3 sides to score. It also rotates, so if hit hard enough, it'll move and you'll have to realign your shot.

That track is just a way to maybe carefully count the balls, but mostly to take the balls from the upper goal, and channel then downward where they either sit on rails to be picked up by a robot, or channeled to human players to redistribute them.

Just a thought that hit me 5:30am

Thoughts or comments??

[Tetraman]

Consider this: One of the new members of the GDC is from Cirque du Soleil.

If this isn't a Marble track, I don't know what is.

http://www.yogee.com.au/images/9320_MarbleRaceIII_A.jpg

[GGCO]

Does anyone think that if it really is a marble track, then this clue is WAY too obvious???

[DonRotolo]

If this isn't a Marble track, I don't know what is.For what it's worth, I agree. The hint shows it upside-down. This is a field element, one of several. It is used to connect longer pieces of pipe forming a marble raceway of sorts, but for 7.5" balls (or similar objects).

[Tetraman]

Does anyone think that if it really is a marble track, then this clue is WAY too obvious???

The clues are way too obvious EVERY year. The problem is, we usually always miss the obviousness.

And if it's not a marble track, its at least a place where balls are set, like they may be placed on this "track" as a kind of "platform loading station".

I also have a feeling that this has something to do with Pipes. Like that game where you have to move the parts of the pipes to get the water flowing in the right direction. What if there is a continuous stream of "water balls" that are sent out a single "pipe" and then roll their way down pipes to "goals". We may need to form robots that can complete sections of these "pipe-ways" to get the "water balls" to "flow" into our goals, and avoid opponent's goals. Or move sections of "pipe-ways" from one place on the field to another. There may be a way for us to funnel "water-balls" to the human player, and they have better and more direct access to the goals, so maybe letting the "water-balls" drip to the floor is an option.

EDIT: And to be more grandeous with this idea, there may be some device above the player stations that is where the balls "drip" from, and they can end up going either to the left or right. So you have to do some good timing and figure out where and when the water will fall, and make good calculations to when you can make the score. I'm sure there will also be "bonus balls" scattered in the "water-balls" that will be released at a variable time.

EDIT 2: I call this game - Pipeworkx - and the X is shaped like two pipes, which is a central field element to the game.

EDIT 3: If I get this right Dave, can I be on the GDC? hahaha

[Lowfategg]

Hmmm, looks to me like some sort of mount for a signal device, such as a light.

This would explain why it is made of polycarb and appears to fit into the existing FIRST field setup along with the placement of the mounting holes.

[pandamonium]

If soccer balls are the game piece, blue and red soccer balls would match the alliances nicely, but on the field they will have one brand. I don't think they will have a bunch of different brands on the field, but for practice I guess you could use any brand. The FTC hockey pucks last year I think were Franklin. So if we have soccer balls then I'm guessing they would want to use Franklin. Like these

http://www.toysrus.com/product/index...ductId=3540673 (http://www.toysrus.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3540673)
http://www.toysrus.com/product/index...ductId=3439879 (http://www.toysrus.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3439879)

I called the online number and provided the product info to the sales rep He was unable to find this product. Leading us to conclude that it was recently discontinued. In the future do not search for products from google as they can be old links. Although werent the orbit balls discontinued too?

[staloch]

i also think that the center piece could be able to slide back and forth along the 2 pipes

[ATannahill]

I was thinking earlier that this thread has been good about no repeats of ideas. I have been proved wrong. Please read the whole thread or at least search it with the button at the top of the page.

[Nin_estarSaerah]

The clues are way too obvious EVERY year. The problem is, we usually always miss the obviousness.


Usually, Game Hint #1 isn't so obvious. Even when we get it right, it isn't so revealing. Like the Opah "Moonfish" last year, really only told us the "theme" of the game, not much about the field or how it is played. If this is a track, and is so obvious, we may not get another hint.

[Beta Version]

Why do we assume balls, when we could be easily talking about cylinders.

This "track" idea is pretty nice, however, simply because the track indicates a curve in two coordinates, doesnt mean in needs to be a curved in all three. In fact, a modular rail system like this would actually be a pretty poor choice for a rolling track, every joint is an opportunity for the ball to get hung up.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/MuffasaMini/Capture-1.gif
Sorry about the bad stock image, I cant draw a cylinder in photoshop, but Dave mentioned diet coke cans in his blog, and I thought it apropos.

Instead of a track designed to roll balls on, a game piece we've used too many years in a row, this could be a scoring rack, in which cylinders are placed to score points. It would be a new game piece, not unreasonable, but presenting excellent manipulation engineering challenges.

It could also go along with an earlier discussion on what good real life engineering challenges could turn into games, in which waste management came up, but thats just speculation.

[Nin_estarSaerah]

Instead of a track designed to roll balls on, a game piece we've used too many years in a row, this could be a scoring rack, in which cylinders are placed to score points. It would be a new game piece, not unreasonable, but presenting excellent manipulation engineering challenges.

It could also go along with an earlier discussion on what good real life engineering challenges could turn into games, in which waste management came up, but thats just speculation.

I really like this idea, and the point of real life engineering challenges is one we haven't addressed much in this thread.
If this was a scoring rack, the cylinders would still be easy to de-score but probably not as easy as balls. Plus, we have had balls the last 3 years, a change in shape would seem to be in order.

[RoboMaster]

A bunch of people have now said that it would be easy to take balls or cylinders off the track idea. I suggest that this isn't the whole part and there might be side rails that keep the object from going off the side.

[jerry w]

Why do we assume balls, when we could be easily talking about cylinders.

This "track" idea is pretty nice, however, simply because the track indicates a curve in two coordinates, doesnt mean in needs to be a curved in all three. In fact, a modular rail system like this would actually be a pretty poor choice for a rolling track, every joint is an opportunity for the ball to get hung up.



The angle of the support to the rail indicates that gravity is involved. A sphere is the object that tends to move most easily in response to the force of gravity when placed on a track. If the ball has a firm surface, the small bumps at the joints would have little effect. Once static friction is overcome, the inertia of the rolling ball will take it over the bumps.
So the puzzle here is "where might these rails be placed?":confused:

[Chris is me]

Perhaps the most obvious answer isn't the correct one? I would not be surprised if this has nothing to do with balls now.

If you put the poles vertically, you could easily hang a ringer or something on the end of the lexan. You could even mount it in a way that the lexan is tipped upward slightly to prevent it sliding. I think the game object will dangle from the tongue.

Can someone tell me what things can fit in or around that tongue easily? Handles for things, maybe? My suitcase I tredged through airports is the first thing that comes to mind, but probably not :P Approximately how wide is the tongue?

[Karibou]

Perhaps the most obvious answer isn't the correct one? I would not be surprised if this has nothing to do with balls now.
Thankkkkk you. I've been feeling like I'm the only one who was thinking this :/

Can someone tell me what things can fit in or around that tongue easily? Handles for things, maybe? My suitcase I tredged through airports is the first thing that comes to mind, but probably not :P Approximately how wide is the tongue?
A lot of things could fit around that tongue easily, mostly things with handles - suitcases, purses, laptop bags. Things could even be draped across it, like scarves and coats.
Though...assuming that is 1/4" Lexan, there aren't many things that could be draped/hung on it without it snapping.

I feel like the orientation that we've been given is the correct orientation for the piece in the game. The curve at the bottom might just be for some structural aspect. Just throwing that out there.

And for those talking about how things are going out of production after FIRST used them as game pieces - aren't the balls from 2006 still being made?

[Bharat Nain]

A lot of things could fit around that tongue easily, mostly things with handles - suitcases, purses, laptop bags. Things could even be draped across it, like scarves and coats.
Though...assuming that is 1/4" Lexan, there aren't many things that could be draped/hung on it without it snapping.


FRC2010 - The flying purses :p

[Beta Version]

The angle of the support to the rail indicates that gravity is involved. A sphere is the object that tends to move most easily in response to the force of gravity when placed on a track. If the ball has a firm surface, the small bumps at the joints would have little effect. Once static friction is overcome, the inertia of the rolling ball will take it over the bumps.

Only if the rails are at an angle downward, but theres no evidence to suggest that. I mean, of course gravity is involved, these objects have mass. All angles on these supports are are normal or orthagonal to the rails, if anything that means that the structure must be either parallel or perpendicular to it's supports and load, meaning it would be level, or straight up and down. Not exactly the best way to design rails you hope balls were slide/roll down. IF this is a rail system, its most likely perfectly level, and therefore designed to hold, not transport the game pieces.

As for problems with how shallow the rails are, I agree that that would make it pretty easy for balls to bounce out. But I dont think the problem would be as bad for cylinders. Furthermore, de-scoring as been part of games in the past.

[skimoose]

Many people think that this field object is for a rail system that is to hold or convey scoring objects such as balls. What if these rails are part of a system of movable goals? Such as the cars of a roller coaster. Any of these images look familiar?

http://k41.pbase.com/o5/31/707231/1/67314586.4ckaUKVS.IMG_1758copyweb.jpg

or

http://z.about.com/d/photography/1/0/w/F/-/-/greenfnlstamrjoe.jpg

and who says it needs to be used in only one orientation?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3650/3548836725_03b380a95b.jpg

As you can see there is also a convenient curve in the bracket between the rails which is similar to that lexan bracket.

[Thing2_1723]

One of my friends and i were talking about it and be both thought it looked like some type of sled. However, after reading 19 pages of opinions my brain is about to explode with ideas. I started wondering the refraction showed that the sides are parallel, but not identical. I also really like the "track" idea that people are thinking of, it would make for an interesting game.

One of the advisers on my team is convinced that the game will be impossible to play without the camera and and last year was to figure out how it works for this year.

[Eugene Fang]

One thing that strikes me about it being a track for a cart is that the lexan bracket seems like it would get in the way of any wheels holding onto the "backside" of the bars, keeping the "carts" from being pulled off. So, unless the robots had to place carts onto the track (which might make for a kind of boring game), the "carts" would get knocked off easily.

[jamie_1930]

An interesting point was brought up while talking to one of my teammates:

If the game hint is indeed a track where balls are to be scored, it would be too easy to descore them (like in 2003's Stack Attack), whether on purpose or by accident; a simple bump could kick the ball out because the track isn't "deep" enough for the 6" diameter or so balls we're assuming.

True, the GDC could make a rule making it illegal to descore the balls (like the ringers in 2007), but there would be too many incidences of accidental descoring, making it a pain for the referees.

So I'm revising my guess that it's still a track for holding balls, but as a dispenser/autoloader rather than where the robots will be trying to score.

Why not just allow descoring? It was perfectly legal in FIRST Tech Challenge Hot Shot this year.

[ATannahill]

Why not just allow descoring? It was perfectly legal in FIRST Tech Challenge Hot Shot this year.
I do not know all the rules but I believe there is something saying you can't reach out to the 10 point goals or block the 5 point goals by reaching into them or moving them by way of something besides the bar (as I remember that is the only way to remove the balls). So you are only able to descore the 1 point balls.

[jamie_1930]

Consider this: One of the new members of the GDC is from Cirque du Soleil.

If this isn't a Marble track, I don't know what is.

http://www.yogee.com.au/images/9320_MarbleRaceIII_A.jpg

Oh my god it just hit me, Cirque Du Soleil, what if we have a challenge involving having our robots of the ground it's been part of it a FIRST game before and it would certainly be an interesting challenge to lift yourself up.

At Ruckus this year there was a vex competition as well that was based off of a previous FTC game.
http://ruckus.penfieldrobotics.com/vex/

[jamie_1930]

I do not know all the rules but I believe there is something saying you can't reach out to the 10 point goals or block the 5 point goals by reaching into them or moving them by way of something besides the bar (as I remember that is the only way to remove the balls). So you are only able to descore the 1 point balls.

That's what I was talking about, the main point is it's not like FIRST has always condemned the act of descoring an opponents points. It was also allowed in 2007 Rack n Roll, technically it's "negating via the spoiler tubes", but the concept is the same to lower points your opponent previously gained.

[keehun]

One of the advisers on my team is convinced that the game will be impossible to play without the camera and and last year was to figure out how it works for this year.

That doesn't seem fair to the rookie teams that will be joining this year. FIRST has and always will, I believe, to make the playing field as equal as possible. Last year, it was by adding lowered friction.

[jamie_1930]

That doesn't seem fair to the rookie teams that will be joining this year. FIRST has and always will, I believe, to make the playing field as equal as possible. Last year, it was by adding lowered friction.

That is the downfall of being a rookie team having the experience that veterans have they will always be at an advantage. Rookie teams just need to work harder and think smarter in order to try and level the field themselves.

Also if there is no camera this year than what was the point of introducing it last year photorecognition is something that is very important in robotic systems and I think it would almost be an insult not to include it.

[Nin_estarSaerah]

I like the idea of having robots off the ground, but I don't think this piece could be used to do it. That was one of the first things I thought about when I saw this, not as a track for balls, but for robots or carts, but because of the orientation of the lexan and the larger tube, it doesn't look like it could really function as a track for anything with wheels.

roller coaster wheels

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o80/selizabethw_photos/Roller_coaster_wheels-1.jpg

[Tetraman]

what if we have a challenge involving having our robots of the ground it's been part of it a FIRST game before and it would certainly be an interesting challenge to lift yourself up.

Considering last year there was a floor change, what if this year...we aren't allowed to use the floor AT ALL, and must move robots around on rails.

[TEntwistle]

A few comments - if the lexan piece were to hold or act as a hanger for game pieces, there is no reason for the holes that have been placed in it. These look like they are designed to attach it to something in a permanent fashion

In my brief experience with FIRST, and in reading about the older games, I feel that the GDC goes into exsquisite detail as they plan for every year. I think that they make game design and rules not only to change the format every year, but also to level the playing field. With Overdrive, blocking an opponent was forbidden, but has not been in many other years. With Overdrive, blocking would have made the game too easy for a defensive strategy to dominate. With Lunacy, not allowing expansion of the robot outside of the basic configuration limited the efficacy of scoring and prevented blocking shots on your trailer.

Therefore, the methods of scoring and allowance (or disallowance) of de-scoring will be based more on what it will take to have a multi-facted game - one in which multiple game strategies and thus robot designs can flourish. Otherwise, everyone will make the same robot, drive it the same way, and be bored to tears.

[JaneYoung]

That doesn't seem fair to the rookie teams that will be joining this year. FIRST has and always will, I believe, to make the playing field as equal as possible. Last year, it was by adding lowered friction.

That's interesting. Is there a link that you can provide that supports this statement?

[GGCO]

I really don't think it's FIRST's job to make the playing field "more equal".... and they definitely didn't do that with the regolith - it was a challenge for both veterans and rookies - each year EVERYONE has the same chance at greatness.

If anything the cRIO made things "more equal".

[Karibou]

That is the downfall of being a rookie team having the experience that veterans have they will always be at an advantage. Rookie teams just need to work harder and think smarter in order to try and level the field themselves.

Also if there is no camera this year than what was the point of introducing it last year photorecognition is something that is very important in robotic systems and I think it would almost be an insult not to include it.
You make a very good point about it being an insult to not include the camera, although I believe that you may have interpreted the comment wrong. It was said that a mentor believed that the game would be impossible to play without the camera, and that last year was supposed to be training on how to use it. A point about that not being fair to rookie teams was brought up - never saying that the camera wouldn't be used.

You're also right in saying that rookie teams will always be at a disadvantage. No matter how much of a bang you start out with, you'll almost never be able to compete on the same level as many of the seasoned veterans, some with more than 10 years of experience (there are exceptions, though). However, some effort must be made to level the field, for the sake of the rookies. While rookie teams do indeed need to work a bit harder and think a bit smarter to bring themselves up to par, they would be at a huge disadvantage if no effort was made to level the playing field. In addition to working harder and smarter, they're also still in the process of figuring out what the heck they're doing. Blazing one new trail is hard and stressful enough, but it puts you at an extreme disadvantage when your competition doesn't have to blaze any. There will always be new problems to solve, and different challenges to complete.

Now, back to that game hint.

[Chris is me]

That doesn't seem fair to the rookie teams that will be joining this year. FIRST has and always will, I believe, to make the playing field as equal as possible. Last year, it was by adding lowered friction.

This post from back around Julyish may be of some relevance to you.

I am going to challenge one of the basic premises of this thread. It has been stated already in this thread (and several others) that one of the purposes for the changes incorporated into the 2009 game is to "level the playing field to close the have/have-not gap" for the teams.

Says who?

Can anyone show me where this assertion has been stated by any credible source?

Like so many other things, the "need to level the playing field" argument is urban myth. And like most urban myths, it is simply not true. While there are many, many factors that are considered during the design of a FRC game (some of which are obvious to teams, but many of which are not), I can state categorically that particular issue was never a consideration.

And if "leveling the playing field to close the gap" was not one of the intended effects of the game, then I am not sure why we are debating whether that gap was successfully narrowed or not.

-dave



.

You make a very good point about it being an insult to not include the camera, although I believe that you may have interpreted the comment wrong. It was said that a mentor believed that the game would be impossible to play without the camera, and that last year was supposed to be training on how to use it. A point about that not being fair to rookie teams was brought up - never saying that the camera wouldn't be used.



Where do you guys get the idea that the camera won't be included? It's confirmed for the Rookie kits.

[Mark Holschuh]

Back in early December, I believe Dave Lavery posted a story that included loganberries and passion fruit (red and green balls perhaps?) and a stick. Before that we know that the GDC spent some time contemplating their Haagen-Daz ice cream cups. Now we see a bracket that perhaps carries balls to or from the playing field.

Perhaps we are playing billiards this year. Perhaps teams may be able to use a camera to help line up their shots. And perhaps the autonomous mode will be used for a 'break.'

Or perhaps I'm completely off, like I have been every other year.

[ahecht]

and who says it needs to be used in only one orientation?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3650/3548836725_03b380a95b.jpg

As you can see there is also a convenient curve in the bracket between the rails which is similar to that lexan bracket.

I wouldn't use that model of rollercoaster as an example of ANYTHING. The Zamperla Volare (called the "Flying Coaster" at Elich Gardens and "Time Warp" and "Tomb Raider: The Ride" at Canada's Wonderland) is one of the most poorly engineered rides I've ever ridden.

[Karibou]

Back in early December, I believe Dave Lavery posted a story that included loganberries and passion fruit (red and green balls perhaps?) and a stick.
Yummm, loganberries. The berries are delicious, and so is the drink (my family has about 10 2-liters of it sitting in the basement right now).

Where do you guys get the idea that the camera won't be included? It's confirmed for the Rookie kits.
I never said that it wouldn't be :/

[Randy Picolet]

I think I've read all the posts so far, and I don't recall anyone pointing out that the reason for the lexan bracket might be for electrical characteristics, rather than transparency.

I also haven't seen anyone suggest that the opposing holes on the ears of the bracket might make good mounts for a roller, which if of an appropriate diameter, could be used to sense (or even less likely, propel) a ball rolling along a track. This sensing could then be used either for scoring or as a trigger to operate some other mechanism.

In any case, I can't conceive of a reason for a structural member to be made of lexan. To me, it suggests a bracket for holding some kind of electronics. The steel pipes would then be plenty strong enough for field use, as in Overdrive, which used the same basic connector pin technique to construct the overpass and lane divider.

My $2/100.

[Pausert]

I think that as we all try to guess at the game it's important to remember the new Coopertition award and how you win it:
The Coopertition™ Award celebrates the team that best demonstrates the ability to help their opponents compete. In the inaugural year of the Coopertition Award, the award will be granted to the team that earns the most Coopertition bonus points during the competition

[rulesall2]

after viewing 340x4xLife's post I think that they put some type of mechanism to return the balls to one spot, or recycle the balls to field. This would require high goals in order for the mechanism to work (gravity) = Idea 4.


Here is the game we will play
http://www.acsupplyco.com/knex/bigballfactory.jpg

I have been reading this forever, and about a quarter of the way through (my hour long quest...) i came to he conclusion of a gumball machine. Teams are supposed to herd balls into a certain spot and it would be lifted upward into a funnel, much like one of those spiraling coin things, where the goal would be get as many of your colored balls through the hole in the funnel in the 2:30 time period you have. You could control the game by either scoring balls or herding the other teams, to prevent scoring. The hint is the piece of the elevator that would lift the ball. (The gumball machine isn't conventional, but rather one of the fancy ones you see in the mall)

http://www.gumballmachinesdirect.com/sportsball.jpg
http://www.funnelworks.com/mediumfunnelblack1.jpg

[GGCO]

I think that as we all try to guess at the game it's important to remember the new Coopertition award and how you win it:

The Coopertition™ Award celebrates the team that best demonstrates the ability to help their opponents compete. In the inaugural year of the Coopertition Award, the award will be granted to the team that earns the most Coopertition bonus points during the competition


Come on. Remember those points last year that were designed to penalize teams that did really well?? This is just like it, but WAY worse - it's just going to encourage teams to deliberately lose or let their opponents score on them at the end of a match. (both of which occurred last year at Michigan district events)

Teams should be rewarded for winning, and if they play unethically then I can guarantee that FRC teams would notice. But the same goes if they demonstrate gracious professionalism. Speaking of GP, what is the difference of this and the GP award?:confused:

[zakthemac]

those sound like great ideas!

They look as if they lock in with each other, what if its a hint like last year about hitch... i mean what if its used to lanch... like drop a ball down a ramp in to something.

Id hate to say this but what if its a part to the chasey and its a water game?

[Steve W]

FIRST loves listening to our ideas. I see the rails as holders for netting. This netting would be to hold the bean bags that are to be used in this years game. It's been a while since the floppies and they are due for a return.

[keehun]

My comment about the cameras was that I find it hard to believe FIRST will ever force teams to use the camera. I've heard of stories where even 10yr+ seasoned veterans (with great resources, I might add) had trouble using the camera because of lighting conditions and whatnot. Also in respect to cameras... With the new Classmate PCs as driver stations, it may change a lot of things...

[Jon Jack]

My comment about the cameras was that I find it hard to believe FIRST will ever force teams to use the camera. I've heard of stories where even 10yr+ seasoned veterans (with great resources, I might add) had trouble using the camera because of lighting conditions and whatnot. Also in respect to cameras... With the new Classmate PCs as driver stations, it may change a lot of things...

Cameras are very sensitive to lighting conditions, which in turn makes them very difficult to use. Conditions vary from a team's workshop to the different regional events to the championships.

I'd even be willing to bet that camera values would change throughout the day in a place like the Georgia Dome where weather conditions outside can greatly effect lighting conditions inside.

[jamie_1930]

My comment about the cameras was that I find it hard to believe FIRST will ever force teams to use the camera. I've heard of stories where even 10yr+ seasoned veterans (with great resources, I might add) had trouble using the camera because of lighting conditions and whatnot. Also in respect to cameras... With the new Classmate PCs as driver stations, it may change a lot of things...

Any team that didnt calibrate at competiton brought that on themselves, and the best thing to do was have it calibrated before at each match. Are team didn't but that was because we didn't end up using it because of complications but the time given to set each robot should allow, with a well oiled drive team, for proper calibration.

[Jon Jack]

Any team that didnt calibrate at competiton brought that on themselves, and the best thing to do was have it calibrated before at each match. Are team didn't but that was because we didn't end up using it because of complications but the time given to set each robot should allow, with a well oiled drive team, for proper calibration.

I saw several teams try to calibrate during Thursday in Atlanta. I don't think the issue is teams not calibrating their cameras. The problem is the variance between venues, especially between regional venues and the Georgia Dome.

Plus how can you set your robot, turn it on and calibrate your camera in the couple of minutes you have on the field before a match?

[apalrd]

That's why they gave teams a lighted target in '06 and '07. '05 had a camera too, but it proved to be too sensitive to light to work since the target was not lit and the plastic reflected differently at different angles.

As for the new laptops and the cRio, yes they change things for some teams, but we could have a laptop Dashboard last year too. If the dashboard video has little lag, it would be possible for them to allow us to look through the robot's eyes or make it advantageous to do so.

Back to the render, it is possible the reflections/colored Lexan indicate that we will have skewed/otherwise not clear vision from the driver stations, and must look through the robot's camera or rely on the robot sensors more than before for decision making. What would be really interesting is if the GDC replaced the clear plastic on the Driver Stations with black plastic (so all decision making is based only on robot sensor feedback to the drivers) or colored it so blue/red game pieces looked the same to the drivers (so the robot must tell the difference).

Kickoff is coming soon, we will know how this relates to the game then and it will seem all too obvious to us what this is.

[Chris is me]

Come on. Remember those points last year that were designed to penalize teams that did really well?? This is just like it, but WAY worse - it's just going to encourage teams to deliberately lose or let their opponents score on them at the end of a match. (both of which occurred last year at Michigan district events)

That's a ridiculous assumption (and in my mind, completely uncalled for). You're criticizing something none of us know anything about because you think it might be like an unpopular rule from the previous year. You don't even know what Coopertition points are.

I've got to ask you where you've read that the definition of coopertition is "punishing the teams that do well" and "rewarding teams who score for their opponents", because I've heard a bunch of people claim "coopertition is scoring for your opponent!" when that goes against everything I've ever heard the word used for. Scoring on your opponent isn't coopertition at all, it was (in 2009) a move motivated entirely for each team's self interest (not getting a <g14>) and had nothing to do with coopertition.

Note: I've always understood coopertition to be fiercely competing on the field, and assisting and working together off the field, going hand in hand with gracious professionalism. If I'm completely off base, someone correct me please.
Speaking of GP, what is the difference of this and the GP award?:confused:

Maybe you should wait to find out what the award is before you very harshly criticize it...

[fuzzy1718]

[QUOTE=zakthemac;890864]

They look as if they lock in with each other...[QUOTE]


That is my thought exactly, like on the legs of a pop-up canopy or adjustable crutches. I think this is only one piece though, and the part that locks with it isnt shown... just a thought

dang it I messed up the quote... how does that work again?

[Akash Rastogi]

LOL,


as always, please try to read at least parts of the whole thread before you post something redundant.

Thanks,
The Management (no not really of course)

[jamie_1930]

I saw several teams try to calibrate during Thursday in Atlanta. I don't think the issue is teams not calibrating their cameras. The problem is the variance between venues, especially between regional venues and the Georgia Dome.

Plus how can you set your robot, turn it on and calibrate your camera in the couple of minutes you have on the field before a match?

You need to read the entire post or atleast understand it, what I said was that teams need to calibrate their cameras and if they do so and AT THE VENUE their currently competing at there should be less problems then would have occured if they had just stuck the camera on with the same settings they had back in the shop. The cameras require constant calibration you can't asume that what worked at RIT will work at Atlanta or what worked yesterday will work today

[Eugene Fang]

You need to read the entire post or atleast understand it, what I said was that teams need to calibrate their cameras and if they do so and AT THE VENUE their currently competing at there should be less problems then would have occured if they had just stuck the camera on with the same settings they had back in the shop. The cameras require constant calibration you can't asume that what worked at RIT will work at Atlanta or what worked yesterday will work today

Well one problem about the lighting in the Georgia Dome is the semi-translucent tarp that is the ceiling. In different times of day, the lighting inside changes.

And let's all go back to talking about the game hint please. :D

[jamie_1930]

That's a ridiculous assumption (and in my mind, completely uncalled for). You're criticizing something none of us know anything about because you think it might be like an unpopular rule from the previous year. You don't even know what Coopertition points are.

I've got to ask you where you've read that the definition of coopertition is "punishing the teams that do well" and "rewarding teams who score for their opponents", because I've heard a bunch of people claim "coopertition is scoring for your opponent!" when that goes against everything I've ever heard the word used for. Scoring on your opponent isn't coopertition at all, it was (in 2009) a move motivated entirely for each team's self interest (not getting a <g14>) and had nothing to do with coopertition.

Note: I've always understood coopertition to be fiercely competing on the field, and assisting and working together off the field, going hand in hand with gracious professionalism. If I'm completely off base, someone correct me please.


Maybe you should wait to find out what the award is before you very harshly criticize it...

I believe this all stems from a misinterpretation of the award. In my opinion the award is meant to award teams that care more about a fair game, or that go out of their way to help an opponent with technical difficulties (similiar to veteran teams helping rookie teams make their bots functional). Although I agree with ggdoc, that last years "leveling" rule is complete bull, I don't think that the coopertiton award is there to award teams who back down from winning or lessen their abilities to allow other teams feel good about themselves.

[Akash Rastogi]

If you guys feel like talking about that award, go make another thread please. Keep this thread on track.

<sarcasm> HA. Get it? Track? HA... because of the game hint! Ha hahaha....HA. Bahahaha. Oh I'm too funny.
</sarcasm>


But no really, go make a new thread if you're going to go on a tangent please.

[Steven Sigley]

Here's my idea of the 2010 game based on the hint, my own crazy thoughts and some talk on here.

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/347/2010gameidea.png

On the red alliance side there are 2 red robots and 1 blue robot.

On the blue alliance side there are 2 blue robots and 1 red robot.

Pipes on the top allow the individual robot to steal soccer balls and give them to it's teammates on the other side of the barrier.
Balls start on the side and back of the field. they CAN be removed from the goals by the individual robot.

At the end of the round tally up the balls in a teams goals to determine the winner.

[Tetraman]

If you guys feel like talking about that award, go make another thread please. Keep this thread on track.

<sarcasm> HA. Get it? Track? HA... because of the game hint! Ha hahaha....HA. Bahahaha. Oh I'm too funny.
</sarcasm>


But no really, go make a new thread if you're going to go on a tangent please.

I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but the game hint threads always end up like this. No one goes though the rest of the discussed ideas, and the topic can change. And in my opinion, it doesn't matter all that much, it's the game hint thread - it's bound to be full of entropy reguardless if everyone stays on topic.

[Culvan Van Li]

Back to the hint at hand...

I was really hoping the game this year would be some variation of stacking milk crates. I'm beginning to doubt that will be it.

There is one thing I haven't seen mentioned, the pipe wall thickness looks really thin. I don't think this is a structural component at all.

It clearly goes between two other parts (with the spring loaded connectors) on the ends. I suspect those other parts will come all the way up to the middle larger pipe and that there won't be a lip. The fact that they recessed the screws holding the lexan leads me to believe that they intended for something to ride through this without catching on screwheads. It seems likely that this is a track for a round object to roll on, but the object would have to be light. Because this isn't structural, I'd be guessing that this part is for putting balls on the field or taking them off. If it is for taking them off then the extra 4 holes are probably for mounting a score counting mechanism. If it's for putting them into the field then it's probably going to have a mechanism to regulate timing or rate of ball input.

I doubt the GDC would give out a significant portion of the gamefield in a single clue. The 2007 clue was a spider foot. It was important, but it wasn't enough to make any solid guesses about the game. This clue seems to have a lot more information, so I'm guessing it's used less (than the spider feet) in the actual game.

Andy

[Chris is me]

I doubt the GDC would give out a significant portion of the gamefield in a single clue. The 2007 clue was a spider foot. It was important, but it wasn't enough to make any solid guesses about the game. This clue seems to have a lot more information, so I'm guessing it's used less (than the spider feet) in the actual game.

You could actually use the reflection of the blue around the leg to extrapolate that the game used inner tubes. Someone even made a render of it....

The pipe being consistent with what's on FIRST fields leads me to believe it's part of the field... but what if it isn't???

[keehun]

Here's my idea of the 2010 game based on the hint, my own crazy thoughts and some talk on here.

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/347/2010gameidea.png

On the red alliance side there are 2 red robots and 1 blue robot.

On the blue alliance side there are 2 blue robots and 1 red robot.

Pipes on the top allow the individual robot to steal soccer balls and give them to it's teammates on the other side of the barrier.
Balls start on the side and back of the field. they CAN be removed from the goals by the individual robot.

At the end of the round tally up the balls in a teams goals to determine the winner.

That's a really cool image. I haven't been in FIRST long enough to know GDC's personality, but nonetheless, I think it's a cool idea.

Just wondering if GDC would ever partition a field like that that's impassable? Though in the context of your game idea, it completely makes sense.

[gallo26]

Here's my idea of the 2010 game based on the hint, my own crazy thoughts and some talk on here.

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/347/2010gameidea.png

On the red alliance side there are 2 red robots and 1 blue robot.

On the blue alliance side there are 2 blue robots and 1 red robot.

Pipes on the top allow the individual robot to steal soccer balls and give them to it's teammates on the other side of the barrier.
Balls start on the side and back of the field. they CAN be removed from the goals by the individual robot.

At the end of the round tally up the balls in a teams goals to determine the winner.

I agree, that's a very nice picture you did there. It makes perfect sense really. Very cool. Good job! :cool:

It would be pretty neat if that field wasn't blocked off in the middle (I believe it is unless I misunderstood what you said) But there were 2 sliding panels on each of those two walls. They would have a program like 2008 that would randomize the walls. Only 3 would be visible (2 would slide next to each other like normal glass sliding doors) And block visibility and mobility of robots. Creating a maze.

Just some random thoughts. FIRST might go back to a randomizer. The control system has gotten smarter, and the camera can track more. So its possible that a random start would be some part of the 2010 game.

[Steven Sigley]

I agree, that's a very nice picture you did there. It makes perfect sense really. Very cool. Good job! :cool:

It would be pretty neat if that field wasn't blocked off in the middle (I believe it is unless I misunderstood what you said) But there were 2 sliding panels on each of those two walls. They would have a program like 2008 that would randomize the walls. Only 3 would be visible (2 would slide next to each other like normal glass sliding doors) And block visibility and mobility of robots. Creating a maze.

Just some random thoughts. FIRST might go back to a randomizer. The control system has gotten smarter, and the camera can track more. So its possible that a random start would be some part of the 2010 game.

Thanks I made it in Sketchup. Yeah sliding walls would be really cool too, you'd have to be sure the walls are solid though cause speeding robot vs. walls flexible enough to move could be bad. But if it was structurally sound then that would be awesome.

[HashemReza]

Personally, I think it's pointless to hypothesize with just THIS piece of the puzzle. The fact that the image is named "game hint 1" leads me to believe there will be more. It's like hypothesizing what a car will look like when you only have the front headlights.

Sorry, terrible representation. Basically, I'm going to take a break for a few days until another hint comes, then maybe I'll look at the BOTH. Can't have a line with just 1 point of data ;)

[alectronic]

Just some random thoughts. FIRST might go back to a randomizer. The control system has gotten smarter, and the camera can track more. So its possible that a random start would be some part of the 2010 game.

I believe that there will for sure be a randomizer for some part of the field. considering all of the potential yet to be unleashed in the control sys, plus what we have been talking about in this thread about camera calibration and the new dashboard/DS, I would feel confident with that guess. What if this piece (the hint) is compatible with multiple types of game pieces, and that is what the randomizer decides?

[Gary.C]

I also think that it is pointless to hypothesize about the game hint, because no one is going to build a robot beforehand of these ideas. It will probably be obvious once we know the game but we will not realize it now. Nevertheless it is a game hint...

[jamie_1930]

I also think that it is pointless to hypothesize about the game hint, because no one is going to build a robot beforehand of these ideas. It will probably be obvious once we know the game but we will not realize it now. Nevertheless it is a game hint...

It's mainly entertainment thinking about the clues, and hey you have countless nerds here with a severe obsession for robots and with the clues it gives something to hold them over before they go nuts, or at least that's me. And if you find a team building their robot based off of this thread I need to talk to them.

[jholman]

Remind me again. Why do we let the GDC hold us captive to these hints year after year? Oh well I'm just going to try to forget about it and wait 2 weeks to see what the actual game is.

[nathanww]

Because it's a fun challenge. Kind of like Sudoku, but with lexan and evil geniuses.

A few ideas I had:

Dave's morse code hint could possibly be decoded as "Everything is not as it appears"(which usually refers to visual perception)
The hint is in Morse code(a communication system)
The CAD render contains a reflection, possibly of another field element(which could be considered a form of visual relay/communication)
The new control system and field elements this year will support much richer telemetry from the robot

Therefore, I'm thinking that these hints might be pointing on an increased reliance on visual feedback and robot telemetetry. However, I'm inclined to think that if this is true, the emphasis is going to be more on robot-to-robot communications and vision processing. Just plain "let's drive the robot using the camera" is not very programmatically interesting or spectator-friendly.

Looking at the hint more literally, I'm reminded of this resturant (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7335351.stm) that uses a suspended track system to deliver food to customers. Cracker Jacks and Haagen-Daaz cups or food. So maybe this is part of a system to drop game pieces down from the ceiling. Hmmm...

Or it could just be, you know, the whole field.

[TEntwistle]

A few recent posts have suggested that there is little purpose to guessing about the game hint (an old idea, BTW - mentioned a few days ago). However, it is a chance to get people excited about the game, and a chance to start strategizing/brainstorming. I have alsready started to think about what I would want to do if this game is played on rails, if it requires sorting balls by color, if it uses small (tennis ball sized) game pieces, if it requires a camera due to limited visibility, and now what to do if the field is partitioned. This may be the biggest value of the game hint - the ideas you thinnk of to tackle one issue may be the best way to conquer the real game, even though your imagined problem has nothing to do with the real problem.

Like JVN has said numerous times. there is no stupid idea in a brainstorming session. The student who asks that we have a robot that can fly will encourage someone else to think of the game-winning strategy. So I would encourage others to keep throwing out ideas, not matter how stupid (except for flying robots), but suggest that we keep it focused on the hint and game, and read prior posts (or search) to minimize pure repitition.

[GBilletdeaux930]

Not sure if this has been mentioned but I came across this as I was reading through some old blogs from Bill.

(This is in Section 5-Rev A pertaining to the new Coopertition Award)

"The Coopertition Award celebrates the team that best demostrates the ability to help their opponents compete. In the inaugural year of the Coopertition Award, the award will be granted to the team that earns the most Coopertition bonus points during the competition (See Section 9 for details about Coopertition bonus points)."

I'm thinking that means that teams will have their own score that they continue to add to after every match...

Sorry this doesn't quite relate to the first hint but it's about the game overall...

[TEntwistle]

"The Coopertition Award celebrates the team that best demostrates the ability to help their opponents compete. In the inaugural year of the Coopertition Award, the award will be granted to the team that earns the most Coopertition bonus points during the competition

My guess is that these points will be unrelated to game play (directly) but maybe given in the pits, or by judges who see teams not running up the score, or something else like that. Maybe it will be related to teams that win high scoring games by both teams. There was some mention of this on the FIRST website in reference to last year, about how coopertition was demonstrated by everyone scoring, and that it was better to win a high scoring game than to keep your opponent to low score (very much paraphrasing). If this is true, then this year's game may have very little defense within it, or they may discourage defense as the primary means of winning. My take on Overdrive was this was intended to be an offense-oriented game. I expect the same this year

[Beta Version]

That's a really cool image. I haven't been in FIRST long enough to know GDC's personality, but nonetheless, I think it's a cool idea.

Just wondering if GDC would ever partition a field like that that's impassable? Though in the context of your game idea, it completely makes sense.

I know that they are considered seperate, but VEX had a partitioned field this season, it apparently was an exciting game.

[Chris is me]

My guess is that these points will be unrelated to game play (directly) but maybe given in the pits, or by judges who see teams not running up the score, or something else like that. Maybe it will be related to teams that win high scoring games by both teams. There was some mention of this on the FIRST website in reference to last year, about how coopertition was demonstrated by everyone scoring, and that it was better to win a high scoring game than to keep your opponent to low score (very much paraphrasing). If this is true, then this year's game may have very little defense within it, or they may discourage defense as the primary means of winning. My take on Overdrive was this was intended to be an offense-oriented game. I expect the same this year

This is already present in the Ranking Score / Strength of Scheduling system in place.

[TEntwistle]

This is already present in the Ranking Score / Strength of Scheduling system in place.

Quite right. I just was wondering if is a double jeopardy kind of situation - low opponents score hurts you in quality points and in coopertition award standings.

[jerry w]

Remind me again. Why do we let the GDC hold us captive to these hints year after year? Oh well I'm just going to try to forget about it and wait 2 weeks to see what the actual game is.

Don't wimp out!! :mad:
Get back in here and help solve this puzzle. We almost had the game described before kickoff last year. The puzzle solving can be just as exciting as creating a design during the six weeks.
We will solve this before kick off. we just need people to think how this picture fits into a game having similar rules from all previous. Yet the game WILL be different.
;)

[ATannahill]

The puzzle solving can be just as exciting as creating a design during the six weeks.


But we need to rest up for the six weeks. The puzzle just takes away from our sleep time.

[jerry w]

Gallo,
Are you going to adjust your drawing so that we can see a reflection due to an angle between rails and mounting tab?
I would like to know what angle gives us the reflection seen in the clue.

Jerry

[TEntwistle]

But we need to rest up for the six weeks. The puzzle just takes away from our sleep time.

Sleep is for the weak

[ttldomination]

Sleep is for the weak

Coffee and M&Ms are for the strong. :cool:

[Karibou]

But we need to rest up for the six weeks. The puzzle just takes away from our sleep time.
Sleep? What's that?

I don't know what you're talking about with coffee and M&Ms; Mountain Dew is where it's at XD

[R.C.]

Coffee and M&Ms are for the strong. :cool:

Lol, Mountain Dew and Taco Bell. Nom Nom Nom.

-RC

[BrendanB]

Hot pockets and Mountain Dew. It's how i survive the long dreary days of build.

I say wait until more hints come out to even discuss this any more. There is a certain point which we have hit where you begin to ask, "What more is there?"

brendan

[Steve W]

Mountain Dew is where it's at XD

Not in Canada. No caffeine in that sugar induced comma drink.

[Akash Rastogi]

Not in Canada. No caffeine in that sugar induced comma drink.

That's how you starve braincells.

[gallo26]

Gallo,
Are you going to adjust your drawing so that we can see a reflection due to an angle between rails and mounting tab?
I would like to know what angle gives us the reflection seen in the clue.

Jerry

I've tried everything. But that reflection is NOT from the part shown in the hint. It's just not possible from what is visible. The GDC will send out something so obvious as a hint, but they'll take it and make sure it's confusing.

I seriously believe that they rendered it from the full playing field. They made everything invisible that connects to the part shown. When they added the background, they moved the XZ plane to a certain height. In Inventor, that plane will cut off everything below it when rendered. Therefore, you get natural reflections without showing everything. They have custom lighting which I cannot replicate. That lighting is what put that funny reflection of another pole, and that blue tint on everything. Its either a light going through an plastic object like an inner tube from 2007, or some other clear blue object.

Either way... the second and hopefully third clue will help us all to pinpoint the ideas written on this thread, and we'll be able to predict the game from it.

[Eugene Fang]

I've tried everything. But that reflection is NOT from the part shown in the hint. It's just not possible from what is visible. The GDC will send out something so obvious as a hint, but they'll take it and make sure it's confusing.

Yeah, I didn't think it was physically possible to have that reflection from the part that we can see.

I have a question though. Why is the reflected image very close to the size of the pipes, assuming the reflected pipe isn't huge in reality? Can someone confirm/deny that when an image is rendered in Inventor with "Perspective Mode" off, that the reflections don't scale properly either?

[KRUNCH DUDE]

While looking at the hint i noticed something. Its design was awkward in the way of its design. The curve in the back and the poles gave me an idea so
I rotated it and here is a crummy MS paint version of what it could be....:D
http://www.teamkrunch.com/Team_Media/Sideways.jpg

[AcesJames]

Oh man....I just realized something

That picture rotated looks like a ladder. Chutes and ladders. Ladders look like train tracks when laid down flat, and the hint looks like part of a ladder/chute mechanism to hold and raise/lower balls.

[KRUNCH DUDE]

Oh man....I just realized something

That picture rotated looks like a ladder. Chutes and ladders. Ladders look like train tracks when laid down flat, and the hint looks like part of a ladder/chute mechanism to hold and raise/lower balls.

possible but its not flexible so it could be like 2007 but with balls

[gallo26]

Yeah, I didn't think it was physically possible to have that reflection from the part that we can see.

I have a question though. Why is the reflected image very close to the size of the pipes, assuming the reflected pipe isn't huge in reality? Can someone confirm/deny that when an image is rendered in Inventor with "Perspective Mode" off, that the reflections don't scale properly either?

That sometimes happens. The part could be right out of our view. We're not sure. But that part could also be far away. If it was HUGE it could have thus scaled properly.

[Eugene Fang]

That sometimes happens. The part could be right out of our view. We're not sure. But that part could also be far away. If it was HUGE it could have thus scaled properly.

Well to me, perspective mode seems like it's turned off. So then we can't tell how far away the reflected object is either, right?

[DMetalKong]

Could be nothing, but what if impossible reflection + Dave's morse code = reference to MC Escher? It would be fun to play on a field like this:
http://deathby1000papercuts.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/relativityescher-410px.jpg

[nighterfighter]

Could be nothing, but what if impossible reflection + Dave's morse code = reference to MC Escher? It would be fun to play on a field like this:
http://deathby1000papercuts.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/relativityescher-410px.jpg

Ahh! How do we build that field? ;_;

[Cooley744]

Warning: Drivers might experience motion sickness...

[apalrd]

Could be nothing, but what if impossible reflection + Dave's morse code = reference to MC Escher? It would be fun to play on a field like this:
http://deathby1000papercuts.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/relativityescher-410px.jpg

It would be better if they actually modified gravity so the robots orientation was always messed up. Or the goals could be sticking out on various angles so you have to be able to orient the game piece in many different positions to score.

[artdutra04]

I've tried everything. But that reflection is NOT from the part shown in the hint. It's just not possible from what is visible. The GDC will send out something so obvious as a hint, but they'll take it and make sure it's confusing.

I seriously believe that they rendered it from the full playing field. They made everything invisible that connects to the part shown. When they added the background, they moved the XZ plane to a certain height. In Inventor, that plane will cut off everything below it when rendered. Therefore, you get natural reflections without showing everything. They have custom lighting which I cannot replicate. That lighting is what put that funny reflection of another pole, and that blue tint on everything. Its either a light going through an plastic object like an inner tube from 2007, or some other clear blue object.

Either way... the second and hopefully third clue will help us all to pinpoint the ideas written on this thread, and we'll be able to predict the game from it.I'm 95% sure (it's good enough for Adrian Monk ;)) that the reflections are entirely from this sub assembly shown in the game hint and nothing else, and that the angles of the polycarbonate part are exactly perpendicular.

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/2272/gamehintreverseengineer.png

[R.C.]

Great Job Art,

Very interesting... Btw just curious, all the models of the game hint drawn by different people or are they shared?

-RC

[Chris is me]

So a robot could hang from that thing and it wouldn't break? o.0

I think my purse game piece idea might be catching on :P

[artdutra04]

Using the official game hint photo, and the fact that the bronze polycarbonate piece was most likely 1/4", I was able to extrapolate all other dimensions from the pixels. (30.8 isometric pixels ~ one inch). Most dimensions are pretty accurate, but take 'em with a grain of salt. Here's the quick and dirty Solidworks files:

[Eugene Fang]

I'm 95% sure (it's good enough for Adrian Monk ;)) that the reflections are entirely from this sub assembly shown in the game hint and nothing else, and that the angles of the polycarbonate part are exactly perpendicular.




Very nice. But what about that one odd-angled reflection on the original? Or am I missing it on your reverse-engineered part?

[artdutra04]

Very nice. But what about that one odd-angled reflection on the original? Or am I missing it on your reverse-engineered part?I'm guessing that one odd angle reflection is actually an artifact of Inventor's crisp shadows versus Solidworks' "feathery" shadows. In the reverse engineered render, there's a faint shadow at approximately the same location and angle (actually at a slightly higher angle, but that may be from a difference in the location of the lights more than anything).

[Akash Rastogi]

Reminder (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/tags/deltafield)

My one word theory for this hint: Autoloading

Go nuts

[GaryVoshol]

Not in Canada. No caffeine in that sugar induced comma drink.What? Sacrilege! You can keep your public health system if it means Decaf Dew.

[fsgond]

Upon doing an image comparison search on the internet I found a lot of pictures of eye glasses. What it means, who knows.

That is just my 2 cents

[TEntwistle]

I'm 95% sure (it's good enough for Adrian Monk ;)) that the reflections are entirely from this sub assembly shown in the game hint and nothing else, and that the angles of the polycarbonate part are exactly perpendicular.

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/2272/gamehintreverseengineer.png

Excellent job on the reverse engineering. It appears to me that the shadow nobody can explain appears on your 50% transparency render. Is there any reason why this should be? Does it suggest that it is indeed coming from this piece and not from somewhere else? Would the fact that you had to render it with 50% transparency be part of the clue itself? I and others have suggested that maybe there will be an element to the game that will limit or alter visibility for the drive team. That would fit in well with the notion that the camera will become more important this year. Why have they given us a Classmate PC to use this year? My guess is so we can (or will have to) navigate the robot based on a camera image, and that we need the capability for real-time (within a few msec, or whatever the technology can give us) video to compete.

[ALIBI]

Has anyone in solid works tried putting a 5-10 degree angle off vertical on the tab? A slight angle on the tab could produce the unknown reflection. It looks like the rounded corners where the tab fastens to the vertical supports fastened to the tubes are slightly wider on the bottom which indicates there may be a slight forward angle on the tab. This would support a gravity drop for a game piece on the tubes if the hint were shown upside down and the tab was eventually fastened to a vertical support.

[Greg Needel]

Great Job Art,

Very interesting... Btw just curious, all the models of the game hint drawn by different people or are they shared?

-RC

RC,
Here are my models pro-e native. As art said also, all values are guessed based on assumptions in the game hint photo, use at your own risk.

greg

[JesseK]

This type of thread is the #1 reason why the GDC doesn't need to solicit ideas from the FRC community, ever. From one simple CAD rendering of a seemingly rudimentary field element piece the GDC has captured at least 100 ideas for 2011.

[johnr]

If this object is a true representation of a field element, how would you build a cheap practice field copy? Where would you find something similar to that lexan piece? Plumbing, heating or wood department at home depot? Would pvc pipes actually slide over each other? Why the end pins have holes? Why have a spacer b/t the lexan and large pipe? So many questions, so little time.I believe this object is a wild rep of a catamaran. Connect some lines from the end pins to the lexan/sail and off you go. Or not.

[skimoose]

Excellent job on the reverse engineering. It appears to me that the shadow nobody can explain appears on your 50% transparency render. Is there any reason why this should be? Does it suggest that it is indeed coming from this piece and not from somewhere else? Would the fact that you had to render it with 50% transparency be part of the clue itself?

The shadow still appears because its part of the original game hint image. The 50% transparency isn't referring to re-rendering the original image (we can't because we don't possess the original CAD file)Art took the original rendered game hint image made it 50% transparent and laid it over the top of his Solidworks reverse engineered render. You can see both images laid one over the other. Since nearly all the critical points line up, it confirms that at least proportionally his drawing is sound. The longer 1" schedule 40 aluminum pipes are a little too long in his model as can be seen by the fact that they don't line up at the rear (right side) of the drawing. I think Art's pretty close though, 1" schedule 40 aluminum is the exact size FIRST has used in the past for connector pins in standard field construction/assembly and he arrived at this dimension by extrapolating off the 0.25" lexan assumption. His methodology was thorough and I'm confident his model is pretty close. It took a while to get the reflections and shadows close (two light sources at to different positions) and we can only surmise that the rendering engines work slightly differently between Inventor and Solidworks.

That said, we have a close idea as to the size and composition of this field element, but are no closer to understanding how it will be used this year.

Why have they given us a Classmate PC to use this year? My guess is so we can (or will have to) navigate the robot based on a camera image, and that we need the capability for real-time (within a few msec, or whatever the technology can give us) video to compete.

They are giving us a Classmate PC to replace last year's driver station that was plagued by static discharge issues. I suspect that PCs were FIRST's original plan for last year, but it just couldn't get finished in time. This http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/img/b49/b498d81c1099830ad3e6f2b4da3331d8_l.jpgshows clearly the Beta test DS layout and there is a space for the camera image. This layout can also be customized by teams. To what exact level I'm not sure yet, but the topic was mentioned during a webcast training session.

Anyway, that a very small image on the DS to navigate from, and the rate of image transmission isn't real-time, and it would eat up huge amounts of bandwidth, I don't think we're quite ready for live camera feed on all team levels yet.

Will the camera be important in this year's game? Maybe, probably, but the past games have always had other ways to achieve reasonable results with or without the camera. I wouldn't expect it to be much different this year. It all depends on how well your team can think outside the box, and overcome obstacles.



Instead of trying to read something into that reflection/refraction on the image, we need to concentrate on how this will be incorporated into the field, and why the GDC chose what appears to be smoked or tinted lexan for this component. Surely, the choice of materials is important.

[RoboMaster]

Here's what artdutra04 was talking about with the still-visible reflection on his reverse-engineered part. It's more clear with high contrast.

Also, if the reflection is truly from a different part, why not try to recreate that part too and place it in a way that it will be reflected? Then we can also see where the reflection is coming from.

[Rick TYler]

Just a modest request for folks NOT to put 3000-pixel-wide pictures inline in the forum. A link to the big picture works just as well while keeping the text readable. Thanks.

[terryo]

If this is part of a rail system for a ball - (the support structure which can have extension tubes attached at each end- then another support, etc) - then maybe the game involves alliance members placing a ball at one end of the rail and retreiving it from the other. Or not.
Maybe the smoked polycarbonate and the reflections are the true hint:

SMOKE AND MIRRORS...

[Tetraman]

If this is part of a rail system for a ball - (the support structure which can have extension tubes attached at each end- then another support, etc) - then maybe the game involves alliance members placing a ball at one end of the rail and retreiving it from the other.

I wonder...If FIRST has some kind of "rule" in their game designing that requires the audience to see whats happening. I bet we could narrow down the extent of the "rails" and the locations of their "support structures" if having too many would block the audience view of the game.

[TD912]

http://www.nuk3.com/gallery/comedy/1456/CSI-Enhance-Numberplate.html

Man, this discussion reminds me of that...

Anyway, although the lexan/polycarb piece should be able to hold a 120 lb. robot, I doubt it will be used for that. I still think it's some kind of gamepiece holder that's attached to the two pipes. The piece might 'hang' from it. Except I don't know what that arc is for...

[jamie_1930]

I wonder...If FIRST has some kind of "rule" in their game designing that requires the audience to see whats happening. I bet we could narrow down the extent of the "rails" and the locations of their "support structures" if having too many would block the audience view of the game.

It may not be an official rule with the GDC, but it's at least an unspoken guideline because for FIRST were constantly trying to expand the organization and the mssion of FIRST, to educate people in math science and technology. In order to do that the first thing is to build interest and if you want to build interest it needs to be a game that is entertaining and understandable for the audience, and not just the rest of the team, the people we kept bugging all week saying you got to come check this out.

[Karibou]

It may not be an official rule with the GDC, but it's at least an unspoken guideline because for FIRST were constantly trying to expand the organization and the mssion of FIRST, to educate people in math science and technology. In order to do that the first thing is to build interest and if you want to build interest it needs to be a game that is entertaining and understandable for the audience, and not just the rest of the team, the people we kept bugging all week saying you got to come check this out.
Also, keep in mind that not being able to see the game would totally kill the teams that scout during the games. 1189 received the J&J GP award at Detroit last year largely due to our scouting system (scouting during the match, and making the resulting data publicly available to other teams), and not being able to see the field would greatly affect teams like us.

[Chris is me]

If FIRST makes a field invisible to the audience, I will buy every team a dozen Krispy Kremes. The whole idea of a robot competition is geared around spectators. Take that away and you have a science fair.

[DonRotolo]

If FIRST makes a field invisible to the audience, I will buy every team a dozen Krispy Kremes.
A completely invisible field would be very cool. Is this a challenge to the GDC? :ahh:

[AcesJames]

A completely invisible field would be very cool. Is this a challenge to the GDC? :ahh:

A challenge would be making the field visible to spectators, but invisible to drivers and human players :D

[Steven Sigley]

They did that in 2008 with the ghosting of robots in the Lexan. :rolleyes:

[Eugene Fang]

Hmmm... One of our member's parents found this:

http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-64576602297917_2084_761899402

[jamie_1930]

Hmmm... One of our member's parents found this:

http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-64576602297917_2084_761899402

We keep talking about having a track to put the balls in but what ifyou don't want the balls to go in the track, or gutter. Anybody up for bowling, Robots vs. Humans

[johnr]

A challenge would be making the field visible to spectators, but invisible to drivers and human players :D

It's called blindfolds

[Tetraman]

Every year, some kid gets the idea to have a robot designed, that it drives over to the opponent's station, and raise up one big massive sheet that would block the vision of the opponent's, rendering them incapable of playing. They claim there is no rule against this - I always point to GP for this rule.

It would be awesome if there was a game that worked on the idea of "visibility" and forcing teams to have limited vision, making robots like this a possibility, under some kind of specific rule that defined how you could block vision.

[Katie_UPS]

If the game is focused on rails, I vote the name be FIRST Derailed

And show a picture of the first logo going craaaaaaazy and off the tracks.

[dlavery]

Every year, some kid gets the idea to have a robot designed, that it drives over to the opponent's station, and raise up one big massive sheet that would block the vision of the opponent's, rendering them incapable of playing. They claim there is no rule against this - I always point to GP for this rule.

There has been a rule specifically prohibiting doing things like this for many years. If they said this last year, you might have referred them to Rule <R02-A> of the 2009 FRC manual. If they were not picking up on this - just the second rule in the "Robot" section of the manual - then they probably were not reading the manual at all.

-dave



.-

[Karibou]

There has been a rule specifically prohibiting doing things like this for many years. If they said this last year, you might have referred them to Rule <R02-A> of the 2009 FRC manual. If they were not picking up on this - just the second rule in the "Robot" section of the manual - then they probably were not reading the manual at all.

-dave



.-

And even if that rule didn't exist, then wouldn't raising some massive sheet up be a huge safety hazard? (assuming it's some kind of cloth)

[Tetraman]

There has been a rule specifically prohibiting doing things like this for many years. If they said this last year, you might have referred them to Rule <R02-A> of the 2009 FRC manual. If they were not picking up on this - just the second rule in the "Robot" section of the manual - then they probably were not reading the manual at all.

-dave


Usually, on the first day of designing, everyone spent much more time looking at the game rules, rather then every robot rule.

Also, all this talk about tracks, made me think about playing Spirit Tracks again. And then thinking of that, made me think about a train FIRST game, which made me think of having stationary robots rolling around on a track, completeing tasks as they pass them. Sort of like a assembly line, only the robots will move around, rather then the "product"

[dlavery]

Usually, on the first day of designing, everyone spent much more time looking at the game rules, rather then every robot rule.

Perhaps a change in process might be something for you to consider. If you are doing ANY design work at all before you read the Manual (ALL of the relevant sections, including the Robot Rules), you are just asking for trouble later on.

As has been said elsewhere, the Manual is your "requirements document." Virtually every successful and experienced team will make sure that they understand what they are designing before they begin the design process. They do that for a reason. It is for the same reason that every good real-world engineering team makes sure they fully understand the project requirements before they begin designing. You have to understand the requirements of the problem before you can ever understand the solution.

-dave



-.

[jamie_1930]

Perhaps a change in process might be something for you to consider. If you are doing ANY design work at all before you read the Manual (ALL of the relevant sections, including the Robot Rules), you are just asking for trouble later on.

As has been said elsewhere, the Manual is your "requirements document." Virtually every successful and experienced team will make sure that they understand what they are designing before they begin the design process. They do that for a reason. It is for the same reason that every good real-world engineering team makes sure they fully understand the project requirements before they begin designing. You have to understand the requirements of the problem before you can ever understand the solution.

-dave



-.

I have to disagree with you here, following kick off we have a huge brainstorming session and as should be with all brainstorming sessions there are no bad ideas. If you come up with something that's against the rules you can always tweak it to fit the rules and that illegal design may lead you to numerous legal ones that would be any better. By the time you agree on the final design yes it should be checked for all of the rules, but saying that it'll only cause trouble isn't entirely correct. Although, yes you should understand what you need to design before you do so, but isn't that the whole purpose of the game animation?

[pandamonium]

Dave finally comes out of hiding and comments on this game hint thread and we waste his time with something stupid. Come on guys lets get back on "TRACK" if that's what it is. Which it isn't Because people had been talking about tracks and trains because of some beverage comercial long before this hint came out. Assuming it was Dave who is the architect of this hint he deliberatey gave us a hint that we would think is a track but isn't.

[JaneYoung]

Assuming it was Dave who is the architect of this hint he deliberatey gave us a hint that we would think is a track but isn't.

I would never assume anything about any one of the members of the GDC at this time of year.

[Chris is me]

Dave finally comes out of hiding and comments on this game hint thread and we waste his time with something stupid. Come on guys lets get back on "TRACK" if that's what it is. Which it isn't Because people had been talking about tracks and trains because of some beverage comercial long before this hint came out. Assuming it was Dave who is the architect of this hint he deliberatey gave us a hint that we would think is a track but isn't.

While I agree, being on track won't make Dave comment on the hint.

I don't see why everyone's glued to the track idea. The lexan seems almost useless in such a setup.

[pandamonium]

rings were brought up but not payed any attention to

[jamie_1930]

While I agree, being on track won't make Dave comment on the hint.

I don't see why everyone's glued to the track idea. The lexan seems almost useless in such a setup.

What if the track doesn't come in contact with the robots but only the game pieces. Do you think any robot from last year could hit that thing with a moon rock and break it?

[Gary.C]

Hmmm... One of our member's parents found this:

http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-64576602297917_2084_761899402

Man I am digging this idea. Nice find. Also we should have spoiler tags when using images, so it doesn't stretch the page when having high res images.

[gallo26]

While I agree, being on track won't make Dave comment on the hint.

I don't see why everyone's glued to the track idea. The lexan seems almost useless in such a setup.

The lexan is merely a bracket used to mount a sensor. The track itself would be much more supported by pvc or steel tubing. This is just a single junction to count scores. Previous posts have ruled it as more of a way to mount something to the track, not mounting the track to something

[DonRotolo]

following kick off we have a huge brainstorming session and as should be with all brainstorming sessions there are no bad ideas.
The key words here are "design work" (in Dave's post) and "Brainstorming" (in your post). These are two different things.

You are correct that true brainstorming has no bad ideas. Once brainstorming is over, ideas are evaluated, and performing this evaluation without regard for the requirements is a sub-optimal practice.

[R.C.]

While I agree, being on track won't make Dave comment on the hint.

I don't see why everyone's glued to the track idea. The lexan seems almost useless in such a setup.

I'm with Chris, the track idea doesn't seem very viable. I think it's just a holder for game pieces or a part of the field. Maybe its a just a holder for a sensor discussed in previous parts of this thread.

-RC

[dlavery]

I have to disagree with you here, following kick off we have a huge brainstorming session and as should be with all brainstorming sessions there are no bad ideas. If you come up with something that's against the rules you can always tweak it to fit the rules and that illegal design may lead you to numerous legal ones that would be any better. By the time you agree on the final design yes it should be checked for all of the rules, but saying that it'll only cause trouble isn't entirely correct. Although, yes you should understand what you need to design before you do so, but isn't that the whole purpose of the game animation?

With what are you disagreeing? The original question ("there is always someone that wants to design something illegal, and they don't know there is a rule against it") and my response ("make them read the rules before they design") both had to do with design. Your comment has to do with brainstorming. They are orthogonal concepts, with only a single point of intersection.

And no, the purpose of the game animation - or any other part of the kick-off broadcast - is NOT to substitute for reading the rules. Any student that thinks so is missing the point of the broadcast (and for that matter, the rules), and any mentor that lets them get away with that is doing a disservice to the team.

-dave




-...

[zachav39]

I believe that the fact it came out on Christmas Eve has something to do with it.

[R.C.]

Using the official game hint photo, and the fact that the bronze polycarbonate piece was most likely 1/4", I was able to extrapolate all other dimensions from the pixels. (30.8 isometric pixels ~ one inch). Most dimensions are pretty accurate, but take 'em with a grain of salt. Here's the quick and dirty Solidworks files:

RC,
Here are my models pro-e native. As art said also, all values are guessed based on assumptions in the game hint photo, use at your own risk.

greg

Thanks Art and Greg. It helps to see the model in 3D. :D

-RC

[Jon Jack]

Why must people always struggle with reading the rules? Are there too many words? Dave, maybe some people need more pictures! :rolleyes:

[JVN]

I have to disagree with you here, following kick off we have a huge brainstorming session and as should be with all brainstorming sessions there are no bad ideas. If you come up with something that's against the rules you can always tweak it to fit the rules and that illegal design may lead you to numerous legal ones that would be any better. By the time you agree on the final design yes it should be checked for all of the rules, but saying that it'll only cause trouble isn't entirely correct. Although, yes you should understand what you need to design before you do so, but isn't that the whole purpose of the game animation?

Hi Jamie,

If you're designing a robot to the game animation and then "tweaking it to fit the rules" later, I would say you're doing some shoddy engineering and missing the entire point of this process.

One of the most important parts in an engineering design process (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/papers/2303?) is to DEFINE THE PROBLEM. If you don't properly understand your problem, how can you solve it? Reading the game manual (the ENTIRE game manual) is the only way to understand the problem given to us in the FIRST Robotics Competition. The animation is just a pretty tool to help outsiders understand the game; the manual is for me, the animation is for my grandmother.

On 148 the first thing we do is read the "key" sections of the manual as a team, this ensures that every student is familiar with all the rules.

You mentioned brainstorming...
Brainstorming is a creativity exercise where a large number of ideas are generated in the hope that a few of them are good. This typically happens early on in the process.

When it comes to brainstorming on 148 we like to throw around illegal ideas just like everyone else. There are no bad ideas during brainstorming. However, our team spends a LOT of time referencing the rulebook during brainstorming to make sure that all the ideas we move forward with are LEGAL. We also typically make a long list of questions we need to get answered (legality questions we will answer via Q&A or functionality questions we will answer via prototyping.)

We've only got 6-weeks...it would be downright irresponsible for us to spend any significant amount of time on an illegal idea; those are by definition, "bad ideas."

If you get a minute, take a glance at my paper (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/papers/2303?) on using an engineering design process and look at the section on specifications, pay careful attention to "design constraints."

-John

[JVN]

Why must people always struggle with reading the rules? Are there too many words? Dave, maybe some people need more pictures! :rolleyes:

This year's game animation should be a "south park" style Woodie reading the entire game manual from cover to cover.

[dlavery]

This year's game animation should be a "south park" style Woodie reading the entire game manual from cover to cover.

Dang! How did you know what it was going to be? Now I have to start all over again...

http://www.team116.org/Images/2009/SouthParkDean.jpg

-dave



.

[hipsterjr]

Dave has been posting a lot today. I'm trying to update his morris code list and I have to edit my post every 10 min.:rolleyes:

[Jon Jack]

This year's game animation should be a "south park" style Woodie reading the entire game manual from cover to cover.

Excellent Idea!

Can we make sure to schedule nap and snack time intermissions in this year's kick-off broadcast?

[artdutra04]

This year's game animation should be a "south park" style Woodie reading the entire game manual from cover to cover.Respect the manual's authoritah!

Oh my god, they killed G14!
You b*******!

[kgzak]

I would have to say reading the manual is very important. Last year we started coming up with ideas for the robot and one idea was to make it impossible to score on us. We then read the manual and discover that we weren't able to do any of the ideas we had come up with. This year I am definitely bringing my laptop to kickoff and getting the rules up on my computer before we get back to school to start working.

[Rich Kressly]

I just want to know if 148 can now assign JVN 4 hours of shop cleaning duty for participating in this thread... ;) ....

we now return you to regularly scheduled programming

[HashemReza]

Excellent Idea!

Can we make sure to schedule nap and snack time intermissions in this year's kick-off broadcast?

Good plan! You know how twitchy we get without our naps, Jon.

I also vote for the legalization of Magic to complete our bots, and potions to heal their wounds. Common decency.

[JaneYoung]

Would the amber-colored polycarbonate be used to protect a lens or stabilize light in some way, regardless of the lighting conditions presented in different venues?

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Would the amber-colored polycarbonate be used to protect a lens or stabilize light in some way, regardless of the lighting conditions presented in different venues?

While Lexan does block 99% of UV light, it is not likely to be used that way, since the location of the house lights are radically different in each location (unless, ofcourse, it is to be mounted on the camera).

It could be used in lighting effects as it has some interesting properties when light is injected into it ... but for these effects to be seen the field lights would need to be dimmed.

I think Jane is starting to ask the right questions though. From a materials property point of view, why would the GDC use a non-standard sized, molded (or bent) piece of smoked polycarbonate? What benefits (over AL or steel) would justify its use?

[Tetraman]

Perhaps a change in process might be something for you to consider. If you are doing ANY design work at all before you read the Manual (ALL of the relevant sections, including the Robot Rules), you are just asking for trouble later on.

As has been said elsewhere, the Manual is your "requirements document." Virtually every successful and experienced team will make sure that they understand what they are designing before they begin the design process. They do that for a reason. It is for the same reason that every good real-world engineering team makes sure they fully understand the project requirements before they begin designing. You have to understand the requirements of the problem before you can ever understand the solution.


Let me clarify and then we can move on.

I wasn't pointing at this as to be some kind of bad habit of the team as a whole. It was always that one or two kids that were always goofing off that suggested the "Iron curtain". It made much more sense to show that person(s) Gracious Professionalism as a reason we couldn't do that kind of robot then it would be to drag out the rule book and point to a rule. We always tried to get the point of FIRST to all our team members, and that was one way we did it.

You are right though, there have always been sloppy process in brainstorming/designing. I can't tell you the amount of times someone proposed an idea and the Rule Expert of the team said "We can't do that, it violates this rule", rather then everyone knowing/searching the rules. We just never changed that kind of behavior because we still got along without.

@ Jamie_1930
Please stop complaining. You had the resources. Rob, Alex, Liz, and all the other mentors that gave just as much to keep the team alive were your experience that you claim 1930 lacked. You're right, we didn't have the kind of school support or money to make ourselves a top-tier FIRST team, but with the other Liz, myself and the artistic team we found ourselves with an Imagery award, which some - not all, but some - team members passed off as a joke. There was nothing wrong with 1930, its resources, it's students, it's mentors, it's school, or level of experience. We just didn't make it all the way. Other rookie teams have made off even better then us. It's not a fault in the system, it's just how things work out sometimes.

As for brainstorming/designing, listen to Dave. He's actually right.

EDIT: If you want to complain at me for saying this, do so in a PM, not in this thread.

@ Everyone else
I apologize for my derailing of this thread. Let us continue with the topic at hand.

[jmanela]

I think Jane is starting to ask the right questions though. From a materials property point of view, why would the GDC use a non-standard sized, molded (or bent) piece of smoked polycarbonate? What benefits (over AL or steel) would justify its use?

Well,from first glance their must be a reason to see through it. Is it going to be part of the field? or off tothe side. In my opinoin, it must be obstructing someones view at a close distance. (similar to last year how the outpost was clear). It may sound dumb, but it's just a thought :)

[MooreteP]

If you will note Dave's picture and the Boxcar Willie Overpass.
He may be adding to the game hint.

http://www.texasescapes.com/DEPARTMENTS/Guest_Columnists/EllisCounty/BoxcarWillie.htm

" But my favorite part of this procedure, is the approach we take when finalizing our instructions. It's almost always concluded with, "If you get to 'such-in-such', you've gone too far." "

Also:
My favorite ritual in our county, though, is giving directions to visitors and guests. None of us really know the name of streets or roads, we just know that there are usually two ways to get anywhere.
This may connect with the idea stated in Dave's "Morse Code": "Nothing Is As/What It Appears to Be What Is".

Additionally, the pseudonym "Boxcar Willie" aka Lecil Travis Martin. Martin, who was once sitting at a railroad crossing and a fellow that closely resembled his chief boom operator, Willie Wilson, passed by sitting in a boxcar. He said, "There goes Willie." He pulled over and wrote a song entitled "Boxcar Willie". (wikipedia)

We may have to pull game pieces from a track mechanism, or place them on it. Robots may be able to move the game pieces back and forth. There may be an endgame where robots will have to choose between a final position (hanging in 2004), or moving the pieces on a track to gain further points.

The Lexan piece may be a divider on the track or tracks that awards points to the alliance who can adjust its position successfully.

IMHO, this is fun but frivolous speculation to get us to warm up our brains for the upcoming challenge of the next six weeks.

Happy New Year! Blue Moon on New Years Eve. Cool Universe indeed.

[jmanela]

now look at the picture from a different perspective, what if that is a scaled model of the field! That would also make sense about the overpass post because of that giant overpass in the middle! maybe the holes that you see are scoring positions. I found that the ratio between the length and the width of the hint was ~.57. This could a representation of the field because the ratio for the field every year is .5. Just some food for thought.

[BrendanB]

Although, yes you should understand what you need to design before you do so, but isn't that the whole purpose of the game animation?

To go along with what Dave said, NO. The animation does not supplement reading the game manual. Every year there is at least one flaw in the animation with regard to the rules. In 2008 there were multiply points were a robot went above 6ft in the opponents homezone. This rule was taken out bye the GDC soon after kickoff. As for 2009 I believe there was a mistake but I can't remember it. Lesson, READ THE RULES and do it as close to kickoff as you can. Our team has a policy, no brainstorming until after the entire team has read through the rules and completely understands them. Imagine how much time your team can save if you read through the manual and then design. You wouldn't be spending time figuring out a robot that holds four empty cells and covers the trailer behind you. If you read the rules you would see, both ideas are illegal move on.

The animation allows us to visualize the game. The manual allows us to play the game legally. Know both.

[BEEKMAN]

so, we know "nothing is what it appears to be" and that the game MIGHT be abou "going green" and all that stuff. ALSO this year, teams will be getting DartFish vision software. So, the picture lets us "see" the game, but nothing is what it appears to be, so its not a picture that we got as a hint, its actually saying we CAN'T see the feild. Now the other stuff, highly reliant on the robot's vision system (yes i know we dont have enough bandwidth to do this, but with the new system, we theoretically should be able to with almost no issue)would make it difficult to see broad areas of the feild. This would be EXTREEMLY hard if there were small parts all over the feild that we had to pick up, and organize into bins of some sort.......

just a thought

[nathanww]

now look at the picture from a different perspective, what if that is a scaled model of the field! That would also make sense about the overpass post because of that giant overpass in the middle!

If it's a scale model of the field, that's a GIANT piece of lexan that doesn't really seem to have that much point or justification for being made out of lexan

[jmanela]

that would be...

[terryo]

Back to the game ‘theme’ for a second, here are a few historical anniversaries for 2010:
400 years ago:
Galileo discovers Jupiter’s 4 largest moons and observes Saturn’s Rings
125 years ago:
the roller coaster is patented by LaMarcus Thompson
100 years ago:
Ray Bradbury is born, 1st airplane flight from the deck of a ship, New York’s Penn Station opens as world’s largest
75 years ago:
the spectrometer is patented by Arthur Hardy, Amelia Earhart flies solo across the Pacific, first demonstration of RADAR by Scottsman Robert Watson-Watt
50 years ago:
LASER patented by Arthur Schawlow and Charles Townes, US launches first weather satellite, Navy bathyscaphe ‘Trieste’ descends to deepest point in the Pacific, Hoover Dam is completed, first Playboy club opens in Chicago
25 years ago:
Coca-Cola changes the secret formula for Coke, then changes it back 3 months later

[Ted Weisse]

25 years ago:
Coca-Cola changes the secret formula for Coke, then changes it back 3 months later

Not really the same formula. They wanted to change from sugar to corn syrup so this is how they kept you from tasting the difference. Cain sugar tastes better to me.

[Tom Line]

I get a chuckle out of this whole guessing game. That's probably why I keep doing it.....

What if this is actually a KOP component this year, much like the game pieces have been in years past?

125 years ago:
the roller coaster is patented by LaMarcus Thompson

Train systems / light rail / mass transit is quite "green", and frankly that thing in the picture reminds me of a mass-transit elevated rail.

Perhaps this will be less about the actual game pieces on that device, and more about a small electric cart with scoring locations running around on an elevated rail system :)

[jmanela]

125 years ago:
the roller coaster is patented by LaMarcus Thompson


of course, tracks!

[Karibou]

Back to the game ‘theme’ for a second, here are a few historical anniversaries for 2010:
400 years ago:
Galileo discovers Jupiter’s 4 largest moons and observes Saturn’s Rings
125 years ago:
the roller coaster is patented by LaMarcus Thompson
100 years ago:
Ray Bradbury is born, 1st airplane flight from the deck of a ship, New York’s Penn Station opens as world’s largest
75 years ago:
the spectrometer is patented by Arthur Hardy, Amelia Earhart flies solo across the Pacific, first demonstration of RADAR by Scottsman Robert Watson-Watt
50 years ago:
LASER patented by Arthur Schawlow and Charles Townes, US launches first weather satellite, Navy bathyscaphe ‘Trieste’ descends to deepest point in the Pacific, Hoover Dam is completed, first Playboy club opens in Chicago
25 years ago:
Coca-Cola changes the secret formula for Coke, then changes it back 3 months later
I'd like to point out that a lot of these involve some kind of transportation or distance, though that may just be you pulling out the right anniversaries or pulling out these ones on purpose :P
Jupiter and Saturn are kinda sorta really far away (telescope?), roller coasters, airplanes, Penn Station (trains), flight across the pacific (distance/transportation), radar (detecting objects from a distance), satellite launch (more distance), descent (depth-->distance).

[dqmot17]

Now if we take Dave's morse code and add in the fact of the anniversary of the roller coaster, and the fact that FLL was about transportation - we have something to do with tracks/rails!

[nathanww]

IMHO, the GDC isn't going to do an agregate theme based on a lot of different events that fall into some category("It's a remote sensing themed game because it's the 75th anniversary of radar, the 50th anniversary of the weather satellite, and the 400th anniversary of Galileo's discovery!"). Instead, if there's an event theme at all, it will probably be something that's well known, has an anniversary that's a multiple of five or ten, and has some relevance to FIRST's mission.

...of course, now that I've said that, the game will probably turn out to be "keep a radar dish pointed at Jupiter while on a roller coaster"

[AlexD744]

OK so, if you move your screen to amplify the reflection, you can see holes on the underside of the poles. That suggests that they attach to something, the coupled with the holes on the lexan. However, the orientation, the "what they attach to", and function sadly remain a mystery. However, my best guess so far, is that if you orient this vertically, it seems to be some sort of shelf, however, that doesn't account for the hole in the lexan. Oh well, this will bug me until kickoff.

On a side note, it kinda sorta looks like a person skiing, maybe that has something to do with the name of the game, if it's not actually a part we will see or use.

$.02

[alicen]

i've read through some of the pages of replies, and i really like the ideas of tracks/transportation.

when i looked at the picture it looked like you could have two of these mounted across from each other to make a 'limbo bar' or something. my idea is; what if there are multiple bars or overhead tracking that we have to navigate boxes, or some other game piece down from, then score somewhere. think something like one of those annoying sliding puzzles, where you have to move multiple pieces around to get the one you want

either way, i think maneuverability is going to be really important in this year's game.

[Chris is me]

Not really the same formula. They wanted to change from sugar to corn syrup so this is how they kept you from tasting the difference. Cain sugar tastes better to me.

I think he was referring to "New Coke", which was more than a simple change to corn syrup.

When have FLL games and FRC games ever been similar? I mean, the Mars FLL game was several years behind the Moon FRC game...

[dqmot17]

I think he was referring to "New Coke", which was more than a simple change to corn syrup.

When have FLL games and FRC games ever been similar? I mean, the Mars FLL game was several years behind the Moon FRC game...
True, but FIRST has surprised us before....

and what i think our downfall is the fact that we keep saying that we "Like what we see"....

We want to see the water game, so we do... We hope that it turns out with tracks.... (It doesn't start off this way of course but around 30th page of the thread it starts to head off that way)

My $0.02 for now

[ChrisH]

Back to the game ‘theme’ for a second, here are a few historical anniversaries for 2010:

75 years ago:
the spectrometer is patented by Arthur Hardy, Amelia Earhart flies solo across the Pacific, first demonstration of RADAR by Scottsman Robert Watson-Watt
50 years ago:
LASER patented by Arthur Schawlow and Charles Townes, US launches first weather satellite, Navy bathyscaphe ‘Trieste’ descends to deepest point in the Pacific, Hoover Dam is completed, first Playboy club opens in Chicago


Boulder Dam was completed in 1936, it was offically and permanently renamed Hoover dam in 1947. In 2011 it will be 75 years after completion. Anybody who knows anything about the history of design, having seen the embelishmants of this massive structure could tell you it dates to the late 1930's and not the late 50's. The style is quite distinctive.

Hoover Dam is an example of true engineering elegance, being both athesetically pleasing even in the smallest detail and yet very functional, but it is probably not significant enough an engineering acheivement to commemorate with a game a year early.

I think it is safe to scratch Hover Dam off the list.

Carry On

ChrisH

[ttldomination]

We want to see the water game

I, for one, have never seen a water game in the FIRST Game Hints, nor do I want to see one. :|

[JaneYoung]

Has anyone checked into any NASA anniversaries of late?

If you do, spend some time checking out their website. It is awesome.

[jerry w]

OK
for those looking at the morse codes...
anagram of the second sentence. "What is may not be."
results in "Maybe As hint Two."
:yikes:
:ahh:
so what does the first sentence give us??

[Chris is me]

Does anyone who's made a model of these know if they stack in each other? This could be a ladder for robots to step on or something.

[artdutra04]

Ray Bradbury is born, 1st airplane flight from the deck of a ship, New York’s Penn Station opens as world’s largestPenn Station was probably the greatest tragedy of Robert Moses' "urban renewal" period of bulldozing everything to make way for new super highways and brutalist skyscrapers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brutalist) in the 1960s.

Original Penn Station:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/Penn_Station3.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/16/NYP_LOC2.jpg/800px-NYP_LOC2.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/Penn_Station1.jpg

Modern Penn Station:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0a/Penn_Station_LIRR_concourse.jpg/800px-Penn_Station_LIRR_concourse.jpg

[STICKY]

I hope that this is a water challenge. The metal pipes can be where the propellers would go and the plastic would go all around the electrical board and stuff

[Stephen of REX]

You guys, the water game has already been announced (http://www.h2orobots.org/).

[joeweber]

If you enjoy analyzing this clue to death … you might be an engineer.

If you find yourself thinking about this clue more than eight hours a day…you might be an engineer.

If you like taking someone’s idea apart piece by piece to build up your own idea…you might be and engineer.

If you think your idea is better than every one else…you might be an engineer.

If you use calculations to prove you right…you might be an engineer.

If you think nothing will work until you download the program…you got to be a programmer.

[Karibou]

If you enjoy analyzing this clue to death … you might be an engineer.

If you find yourself thinking about this clue more than eight hours a day…you might be an engineer.

If you like taking someone’s idea apart piece by piece to build up your own idea…you might be and engineer.

If you think your idea is better than every one else…you might be an engineer.

If you use calculations to prove you right…you might be an engineer.

If you think nothing will work until you download the program…you got to be a programmer.

Can we spotlight this entire post? Pleaseeeee?

[MikePres]

thinking Safety FIRST - i don't think that the robots will be the ones running on up side down roller coaster tracks. I think it's too dangerous and a pain in the neck to attach and disattach six 50kg metal monsters from a track in the air before and after every game.

Instead, if we are already talking about hanging track, maybe they'll be part of some kind of frame above the field and some kind of baskets are hanged and scattered under that frame. thus, robots on ground will try scoring in their alliance baskets and turn over foe alliance baskets... it's like "Aim High" i guess just more chaotic...

[terryo]

Please take these anniversaries at face value-
I just googled up 2010 historic anniversaries, but didn't verify the validity of the data.
Shame on me :(

[ALIBI]

Maybe it is just coincidence, but, has anyone else noticed that there are parallel aluminum bars, tracks, whatever, that look similar to the clue photograph in the picture of Bill on Bill's Blog?

[JB987]

Guess it's time for me to jump in... So we now have 3 related threads out there with some interesting ideas. Jane's recent addition to one of them points us toward an Exploratorium web page with some interesting links, especially the one that relates to auroras and references changing "green and red lights across the sky". What if the "rails" in this clue were used to support lighted targets/baskets/whatevers that our bots would have to track via camera to increase chances of scoring? The rails and lexan would be more than capable of supporting suspended targets above the field. Or perhaps the "targets" when contacted would open gates that otherwise block movement from one side of the field? Then again, all may not be as it seems, right?

[DonRotolo]

Maybe it is just coincidence, but, has anyone else noticed that there are parallel aluminum bars, tracks, whatever, that look similar to the clue photograph in the picture of Bill on Bill's Blog?Those are handrails for the stairway behind him.

What if the "rails" in this clue were used to support lighted targets/baskets/whatevers that our bots would have to track via camera to increase chances of scoring?
Moving lighted targets!

..--..

[jamie_1930]

Talking this over with a friend a got a thought that I had earlier. My thought for the game would be that the piece is oriented as is (possibly with different dimensions, to go along with the "Everything is not what it seems" theme) and the lexan bracket is attatched to another field piece that you would shoot balls into similiar to aim high but with a moving goal

[rcmolloy]

Roller Coasters huh? With the Thompson info I have a big thinking that this will be this years theme. If so my team is lucky cause I am a actual enthusiast lol. If not, we should be fine haha. I really don't know about the device only that it will be adjustable. That's probably it.

[mjgarg5]

The design of the piece suggests that it wouldn't be robust enough to be a field piece, in my opinion.
ya but look how terrible last years game pieces were

[the man]

Maybe it has nothing to do with the pic and more to do with what it is or represents, like last years "moon" fish.

[sNeff]

Maybe it has nothing to do with the pic and more to do with what it is or represents, like last years "moon" fish.
Do you have something better than "H is for Hydro"?

I seriously like that they're giving us a CAD render this year, and hope that they do the same thing in the future. It's kept us quite a bit more grounded than the free-associating with the fish last year...

[Chris is me]

Maybe it has nothing to do with the pic and more to do with what it is or represents, like last years "moon" fish.

I'd buy it if anyone had any idea what this thing was. :(

[the man]

It can not be roller coaster rails, what would the metal studs at the end of each pole be?

[RoboMaster]

Hmm, this hint was posted on a holiday (Christmas Eve). How much do you want to bet another one will be released today or tomorrow because of New Year's? :yikes:

[the man]

Not a bad thought

[ProgramLuke]

How well would the electrics hold, and would it be largely cost prohibitive to use non-KOP materials?
Also could rusting become a problem?

[Dick Linn]

I have no idea what it is, but I swear there's one in my garage somewhere.

[ProgramLuke]

If your garage is anything like ours I wish you good luck and bid you farewell.

[Dick Linn]

If your garage is anything like ours I wish you good luck and bid you farewell.

The hardest thing to find is a clear path to walk through. :ahh:

[brunettegmp]

I'm not sure but the only idea that comes to my mind is that its a field piece that is adjustable because when you look at the ends, it kinda looks like pegs (to me) that would fit into the middle part...but i'm unsure

[terryo]

The hardest thing to find is a clear path to walk through. :ahh:

Souds like time for a little 5-S :)

[skimoose]

It can not be roller coaster rails, what would the metal studs at the end of each pole be?

Spring loaded pins like on a tent pole for locking sections together. This is the way previous field components have locked together, and is also being used on the new Delta field being developed.

[IndySam]

Been thinking about this for a long time and the only conclusion I can come to is that will form some kind of track or trough that we will be placing scoring objects in.

Keep in mind that if it is a ball it has to be big enough for the audience to keep track of, at least soccer ball size or bigger. The bigger ball would be more of a challenge to place and easier to defend. Imagine the ball running down the sloping track to the scoring area. Or even different tracks at different heights for different scores, including a low scoring area that balls could be herded into.

Or how about 8 or 10 inch diameter schedule 40 or 80 PVC with or without end caps? That stuff can get pretty heavy. We could have different lengths of it worth different amounts of points. Picked up and placed on the rack made by these pieces.

Or we have to retrieve these pieces from the rack and move them into scoring position. Call the game "Pipe Down"

[Cl4p-tp]

what if its a track that u have to assemble. u have to fight the other team for the track pieces , put the pieces together, and release a ball to roll down the track first. :ahh: the closest one done or first one done is the winner. defense for the newer teams and the track assembly falls oone the vets.

[keehun]

what if its a track that u have to assemble. u have to fight the other team for the track pieces , put the pieces together, and release a ball to roll down the track first. :ahh: the closest one done or first one done is the winner. defense for the newer teams and the track assembly falls oone the vets.

Looking at how the pipes would interlock, it seems like it'd be really really difficult to assemble it with the robot's clumsiness (or maybe that's one of the things we have to really work on to be a power-house team). Also it seems linking a lot of these seem hard for 2 min rounds. Maybe we only have to fit in one middle piece? (Idk). Whatever it is, I'm excited to witness in 7 days!

[Trent B]

what if its a track that u have to assemble. u have to fight the other team for the track pieces , put the pieces together, and release a ball to roll down the track first. :ahh: the closest one done or first one done is the winner. defense for the newer teams and the track assembly falls oone the vets.

Makes me think of the Show Survivor :rolleyes:

Im with keehun in that it would be rather hard to assemble with robot and if that was the job I imagine we would see a lot of crab/swerve drives as well as multi stage planetary gearboxes for the manipulators :ahh:

Interesting idea... and knowing the gdc for the past few years who knows what they will do...

skimoose made an interesting point too about how they are being used for the Delta field maybe this piece will overlap between the two field types.

[gallo26]

So.... all along... we've been tearing out what hair we have left, biting whatever nails remain, to figure out what the game hint is, just to realize it's a part for the field. :eek:

Say it isnt so! Hahaha Well I do agree that the placement of those pipes is almost perfect to that they use on the field. I believe I've said before that it looks like the usual steel tubing that FIRST uses for field elements. It could end up being a junction on the side of the field that supports something. Maybe a more sophisticated lap counter with the sensor mounting to the lexan on the outside pointing in?? :confused: I'm not sure, its confusing.

Everyone who has posted on this thread has brought about a lot of different ideas to the plate. Before it was just a simple 1 course meal in my mind. But when you post something on CD with tons of engineers and engineers in the making, your bound to have a feast!!

[RoboRed1]

What about scale? can you really tell if this thing is small or large, for all we know it could be two inches or two feet????

[the man]

what if its a track that u have to assemble. u have to fight the other team for the track pieces , put the pieces together, and release a ball to roll down the track first. :ahh: the closest one done or first one done is the winner. defense for the newer teams and the track assembly falls oone the vets.

No thats a very bad idea

[MiniNerd24]

I'm just throwing this out there but it kinda looks like (if you flip it vertically) a version of a clock pendulum er, thing that would hold the pendulum arm in place while the other part of it connected to the clock's inner workings. Perhaps like some might have suggested, a track piece for guiding maybe a zipline handle or a cable car guide.

[/*P4bl0*/]

ok this is like my first post in like i guess ever but here it goes to me it looks like it cant be no bigger then 1 foot because usually the pegs at the end would be like any other (well idk if their any bigger all the ones i have seen are small ) and i think the challenge will be able to connect and disconnect some how may be its to connect that then that piece connect to something else and you get a point maybe or it will let you do some thing else (depending on the rules ) but as i see it its small and you need it to connect something or must be connected to the robot right ?

( sorry if i make no senses at all im just saying what i think )

[Karibou]

No thats a very bad idea

Any chance that you could elaborate on why you think that it's a bad idea? I, for one, think that it would be a little more plausible for a different type of competition (it's just doesn't seem like something that would be FRC-style), but it's not necessarily a bad idea.

[James Tonthat]

ya but look how terrible last years game pieces were
You're talking about the game pieces, I'm talking about field pieces. If they had to place these expensive-to-make pieces on the field, and have a robot destroy it every round, it wouldn't be too good of a game design. It's probably some sort of remote fixture that a robot would have little or no interaction with, that or no robot could impact into it (a piece that the robot has a consistent loading on.)

I heard the idea of hanging the robots off of these pieces but then saw the point made about safety. What if your robot could only have one wheel and would hang into the 'track' via these rails for balance?

[BEEKMAN]

i feel like this is all WAY ovr analyzed...maybe we should show it to a 5th grader and get their input!!!!!!

[the man]

Any chance that you could elaborate on why you think that it's a bad idea? I, for one, think that it would be a little more plausible for a different type of competition (it's just doesn't seem like something that would be FRC-style), but it's not necessarily a bad idea.

It would be very dificult for a robot to assemble any thing of that size, assuming the little metal pegs at the end are not super sized, with five other robots running around with the fields limited visability.

[the man]

i feel like this is all WAY ovr analyzed...maybe we should show it to a 5th grader and get their input!!!!!!

I showed my little bro in third grade and he said it looked like a puzzle piece...some thing a little diferent hun.

[Chris is me]

What about scale? can you really tell if this thing is small or large, for all we know it could be two inches or two feet????

You can make assumptions that the lexan is 1/4 inch thick, otherwise thebend would be difficult to make. Also, the tubes can be assumed to be roughly the size of the ones on field.

[Cl4p-tp]

i agree about us over thinking this. but maby its suposed to be a type of random decision thing like in overdrive. decides different heights.

[billbo911]

This is a real surprise to me. This hint has been up for over a week now and no one has been able to identify it yet. 473 posts so far and nobody realized that this is a common double Helsinki Smash Rod (http://hubpages.com/hub/helsinki-smash-rod).

Isn't it obvious?

[RoseJ]

Isn't it obvious?

Eh, to some it might be.
I showed this to my friend, and she thought that it looks like something used for a tent.

[Akash Rastogi]

Finally! A game using pogo sticks! :yikes:



Really really weird pogo sticks.

Yes, I only post funny responses because I'd rather just wait until Jan 9th

[keehun]

Yes, I only post funny responses because I'd rather just wait until Jan 9th

Exactly!

[hipsterjr]

I highly doubt that this is a piece that we will be required to put together. The quick disconnect tubing would be very hard (harder than usual) for a robot to position and connect together. Is it possible to do, yes, but I think this is just a field element and made to be easily built or changed by the event staff.

my $0.02

[keehun]

Maybe the rails will be randomly generated and quickly assembled by the event staff!!!

[RoseJ]

Or the usual - the GDC just wants to screw with our minds by giving us a clue that hardly relates to what the game will be this year. -nods-

[/*P4bl0*/]

Or the usual - the GDC just wants to screw with our minds by giving us a clue that hardly relates to what the game will be this year. -nods-

well we probably might not use it, it could be use for some thing else and what ever is use for is related to the game, no ?

[markantonio37]

hmm, i looked over the image a bit. i came up with two conclusions.

1. it could potentially be part of the field as a track.
2. it could be an elevator of sorts.

a lot of people have elaborated on the first one. however, the second one, someone mentioned stacking on top of the Lexan. what i believe is that it is something similar to 2008, where you had to push a ball over a bar. however, if thinking that you're gonna be lifting something over a variable height plate or elevator. i could be wrong.

[Akash Rastogi]

ZOMG GAME HINT #2 is now up!
(http://tiny.cc/hIFSh)


No wonder the FIRST site was down today :yikes: :yikes: :yikes: :yikes:

[keehun]

ZOMG GAME HINT #2 is now up!
(http://tiny.cc/hIFSh)


No wonder the FIRST site was down today :yikes: :yikes: :yikes: :yikes:

WOW! That tells me the game will involve us sleeping on racks and our robots will.... idk.

haha just kidding. Can't wait for the 9th...

[MiniNerd24]

ZOMG GAME HINT #2 is now up!
(http://tiny.cc/hIFSh)


No wonder the FIRST site was down today :yikes: :yikes: :yikes: :yikes:

Not that I don't trust you, as I can see you're highly respected (indicating the reputation bar), but is this really the official game hint? I was a little cautious because the link goes to a site other than the usfirst site, while at the same time it's just as vague as something theh GDC came up with for a hint.:yikes:
Again I mean no offense, just cautious before we start getting too many ideas about something that's nto a clue.

[JaneYoung]

Not that I don't trust you, as I can see you're highly respected (indicating the reputation bar), but is this really the official game hint? I was a little cautious because the link goes to a site other than the usfirst site, while at the same time it's just as vague as something theh GDC came up with for a hint.:yikes:
Again I mean no offense, just cautious before we start getting too many ideas about something that's nto a clue.

No, Akash was making a joke. It's kind of funny that it was posted in the wee hours. It is also funny that Akash doesn't appear to care much for the hint opportunities, yet he enjoys posting silliness in the thread. This is silliness, nothing more.

[Kage]

I think that joke hint that he put was actually kind of funny
I mean, what is the one thing we are all deprived of?
SLEEP
Maybe they will be EXTENDING THE BUILD SEASON!?!?!?!?! ZOMG! AND MANDATORY NAP TIMES!

haha, jk
But hey, Anything is possible.

[CottonBall]

Well I've been literally staring at the picture some some amount of time now and I'm not to sure myself what it is. Granted we may very well be over looking something or not quite getting the hint it's suppose to provide. Seeing as how last years was a 'moon' fish and all we would've got from that was it had something to do with the moon.

What I've got so far from looking at this is several things in fact. I've been looking at each piece and the thing as a whole. The two bars seem to be extend-able which suggests we may be dealing with changes in high in the competition, along with the fact that all the parts would appear to be made of light weight materials, may be unrelated to the actual competition but it may suggest a weight limit again. Extend-able building? But they seemed to put effort into demonstrating to us that two parts are made out of metal and one part out of a yellow(?) plastic.

Upon looking closer at the hint I noticed that the the plastic has holes in all sides of it to be attached to something else, maybe more of the rods? But as people said prior it may very well be part of the arena. Though I just can't seem to figure out why the plastic is such an odd shape.

Though for some reason....when I keep looking at the parts it reminds me of some stripped down speed boat...my crazy idea is the competition being water based.

[Chris is me]

Akash's joke was a lot funnier if you were up in the middle of the night when he posted it. :D

[MiniNerd24]

Now that I think about it, the whole fact that it's an odd sort of shape with various parts sticking out reminds me of The Spider from the 2006 game Rack N' Roll. Perhaps it's just like that and it's a segment of a moving goal?

[CTG9210]

The 2 holes in the outer plastic tab make it impossible to swivle which would mean it mounts to something most likely vertically. Also the picture has multiple reflections meaning that it probably has many of those pieces. The most dominant reflection is the one that is inverted, which most likely represents how the piece will actually be. I personally believe it is an immovable game piece and is most likely a ramp for balls to roll on. The reflections are as follows; one at an angle, one to the far side, and one below. So possibly side-by-side and at angles. The reflections could also mean that there are multiple lights or light sensoring devices. Also the spring locks are very common for attaching tubes together just for those that don't know what the tabs were.

Just an idea.

P.S. I realize this idea has already been said, just elaborating and giving reasons as to why.
:cool:

[Dijon]

Maybe this hint is related to CAD, or reflection.

[Ekaru]

Could be a track, or...

We have to attach the yellow parts to "legs" of our robots and we have to make walking ice skating robots. Seems manageable.

...

Seriously, I'll go with either A. Bracket, B. Holder/track/etc. C. We're trying too hard and going on the wrong track and it's something much simpler and half of us will feel like fools when the game is finally revealed next Saturday.

Hmm, I'll go with B for now.

[apalrd]

Did anyone read the decryption test?

It says "Congratulations! You have successfully decrypted the test file!
Below is the 2010 FRC Game Hint:..."

Note the "Game Hint" and not "first Game Hint" or "Game Hint 1", implying this will be the only game hint.

[/*P4bl0*/]

Could be a track, or...

We have to attach the yellow parts to "legs" of our robots and we have to make walking ice skating robots. Seems manageable.

...

Seriously, I'll go with either A. Bracket, B. Holder/track/etc. C. We're trying too hard and going on the wrong track and it's something much simpler and half of us will feel like fools when the game is finally revealed next Saturday.

Hmm, I'll go with B for now.


the field cant be too hard to create every year they give you instructions on how to build one so we all can practice so if the floor is made out of ices how could we practice plus it would cost more keeping it leveled and all right ? im just hoping this year its not like the last were we barely have control of the robot

[BrendanB]

Did anyone read the decryption test?

It says "Congratulations! You have successfully decrypted the test file!
Below is the 2010 FRC Game Hint:..."

Note the "Game Hint" and not "first Game Hint" or "Game Hint 1", implying this will be the only game hint.

Noticed that as well. Since they came out with a hint so late in the season, I was beginning to doubt a second one would emerge.

I guess that this "2010 element" is a large part of this year since they aren't coming out with anything else. Or if they did come out with something it would give it away. :rolleyes:

[Gundamx92000]

this may have been posted, but I agree it seems to look like some sort of ball track system, and it is shown upside down in the picture. but on that note, the yellow lexan doesn't seem like an ideal design for holding up the track, but more so a bracket for something hanging below it. My thought is maybe some sort of sensor mounts on that bracket to count the balls as they roll by.

Maybe these balls are scored on a goal above the driver station and this is part of a track to corral them back to the human player, sort of like what was done in 2006

[Tetraman]

Having one hint is better then having a lot, and having an actual part of the field as the hint rather then cryptic clues makes it a lot more fun, personally. I would hope they make hints this way for a while.

[funggiss]

could it be something allready in use an indistry that has to do with the game last you moon fish pic

or is it like the andy mark slick wheels and do we have to make a walking robot