[BB] 2010 Game Hint #1

[rtfgnow]

http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedImages/Community/FRC/Game_and_Season__Info/2010_Assets/1st%20Clue.jpg

This is real, not a prank from Greg. http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/content.aspx?id=16075.

[Ted Weisse]

OK, now the fun starts...

[brianc217]

http://usfirst.org/uploadedImages/Community/FRC/Game_and_Season__Info/2010_Assets/1st%20Clue.jpg

This is the first actual hint released today on Bill's Blog and the usfirst.org website.

[johnr]

Field element? New trailer hitch? How am i going to build that out of pvc?

[IKE]

"Good Morning Teams,

I wish you a happy winter holiday of your choice. FIRST will be closed Friday, December25th returning Monday, December 28th

The FRC Season News and Email Blast page now has its own RSS feed.

A game hint should appear on the FRC landing page of the usfirst.org website today….

16 days until the 2010 Kickoff
See you there! "

The link was broke when I try, but I will assume the above pic is legit....

[xnaut]

its a telescoping platform of sorts?.... at least its just telescoping....

[Mark McLeod]

http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/content.aspx?id=16075

It looks like it's only one of a series of these parts.
If multiples of these stack together maybe our robots have to do office filing or parts warehousing:ahh:

Maybe we stack little robot partners on these shelves...

[big1boom]

The link is dead, but the game hint is viewable on the FRC landing page on http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/

Hmmm...

The hint image is an original image, not found anywhere else on the internet based on a TinEye search.

It looks like a multipositioning step of some sorts. Possibly the field this year will have a wall that will vary in height randomly?

EDIT:
Also, since it is listed as "1st Clue.jpg" we might be in for some more clues closer to kickoff.

[James Tonthat]

The design of the piece suggests that it wouldn't be robust enough to be a field piece, in my opinion.

[Foster]

It's a set of support parts that telescope.

And with the reflections it's not on water its ON ICE!!

It's an ICE ski support with the rest of the ski to be attached.

WE ARE ON THE ICE! Woo roboteers, start your skate machines!

[gallo26]

It connects to something in the field as the Overpass did in Overdrive. if you look at the smoked lexan, you can see a reflection of a pole (not the two poles visible to us) But a pole with 2 visible pegs. Those could be connections for other pieces? A field element?

Its obviously a render of the field, or more than just this part, they just moved the background plane during the render.

I'll throw stuff out there. I already said a field connection part. So something structural. It could also be an autoloader for some piece. A ball or something, Part, Box, Playing element, that the robots could get at and it would always be filled (by a volunteer!) from 2005.

Thoughts??

[Pausert]

My first thought was that it looks like some sort of yoke, but that seems too similar to last years idea with the trailers. Unless, this year you attach and reattach trailers...

I don't see how it would be adjustable. There are two pins on either sides that snap into other tubes, but those holes in the center are for attaching the plastic piece, not for sliding, right?

[David Brinza]

Docking mechanism?

[Koko Ed]

Maybe that a futuristic hoop because FIRST is doing a techno update on Croquet.

[Billfred]

More discussion over here:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79453

[TEntwistle]

It looks more to me like two parallel bars with stops at either end, then another set of tubes that slide over the parallel bars from one stop to the other (there is a small ledge on the pole beyond the center piece that suggests it is not really a telescoping piece)

[ionave]

The mechanism in the picture looks adjustable, kind of in the same way that a hurdle can be adjusted... Maybe the robots will have the task of changing the height of the mechanism?? Who knows...

[EdwardP]

I don't see how it would be adjustable. There are two pins on either sides that snap into other tubes, but those holes in the center are for attaching the plastic piece, not for sliding, right?

Perhaps the piece that slides over it just isn't pictured.

[James Tonthat]

It might be a field piece, but it would have to be something attached to the robot side. Again, it just doesn't seem substantial enough (thick enough) or has proper fasteners to be a stationary (permanent) field piece.

It's shown in a horizontal position, maybe we should think of it as a vertical piece of some sort, say a tower? Maybe this is the game piece, you have to make a tower of this and use the Lexan part as some sort of shelf to hang something off of or put something on.

[TEntwistle]

The center (outer) poles look like they slide over the longer inner poles and stop at the pins at either end. On the render, there is a little ledge on the poles that suggests that the inner pole extends the entire length of the image, and that the larger diameter pole is actually shorter than at first glance. I still don't ahve a clue as to what it does, though.

[AcesJames]

Perhaps we should think of what someone might call this object, rather than what it's function is? A name for this piece might be some kind of play on words for a more complex and subtle game hint within this piece itself. I mean....it is the GDC we're dealing with here...:p

[Billfred]

The center (outer) poles look like they slide over the longer inner poles and stop at the pins at either end. On the render, there is a little ledge on the poles that suggests that the inner pole extends the entire length of the image, and that the larger diameter pole is actually shorter than at first glance. I still don't ahve a clue as to what it does, though.
You're right about the tubing diameters, but I don't think the bigger ones slide on the smaller ones out to the stops. (Where would those two fasteners slide in the absence of slots in the smaller tube?)

[gallo26]

You're right about the tubing diameters, but I don't think the bigger ones slide on the smaller ones out to the stops. (Where would those two fasteners slide in the absence of slots in the smaller tube?)

FIRST did this in 2008 with the Overpass. They weld it together, and pretty much make it a connection. So maybe this piece is solid and doesnt move, but what it's connected to....

[Daniel_LaFleur]

http://usfirst.org/uploadedImages/Community/FRC/Game_and_Season__Info/2010_Assets/1st%20Clue.jpg

This is the first actual hint released today on Bill's Blog and the usfirst.org website.

Looks to me that it's in the wrong orientation and that it is a support for something like a 2x4 or box aluminum.

[Boydean]

I say they are lasers, and you have targets you have to shoot. The field is foggy too. There are some safety issues involved, but he I can dream right?

(Wow I'm posting this on my blackberry curve in a waffle house)

[TEntwistle]

You're right about the tubing diameters, but I don't think the bigger ones slide on the smaller ones out to the stops. (Where would those two fasteners slide in the absence of slots in the smaller tube?)

Good point. I don't think that the connectors go all the way through, though. If they only went in to the outer tube, without penetrating the other side, you wouldn't need the slots, but you also wouldn't ahve a very strong connection either.

The center bracket has 4 small holes in it, making me think that they are designed to be attached to a very specific piece, not used as a rest or anything else. I can't think of anything that would fit that bolt pattern. Perhaps a gearbox, or some other item that we regularly use, but with a bolt pattern that is new from prior years.

[David Brinza]

More discussion over here:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79453
Perhaps a mod can merge the threads?

[s_forbes]

Possibly a field element for dispensing game pieces? Looks to be about 8" wide, assuming that's 1/4" polycarbonate. Maybe a clue as to how big/how many game pieces we have this year?

Better yet: a tray that holds one robot's battery at the beginning of the match. In order to be functional, an alliance member must go get the battery and plug in the disabled robot.

[TEntwistle]

An additional thought - the holes in the inner side of the outer tubes looks like they are there so that the bolts holding the brackets to the poles can be tightened or a nut placed on them. It sounds crazy, but if the machine screw were placed from the inner aspect of the pole (using the access hole), if the screw hear were slightly rounded to match the internal diameter of the tube, and if the hole in the outer tube were countersunk (countersinked?), the connection could still be secure, yet allow the outer pole to slide over the inner.

I like the idea of the bracket connecting to a 2x4 or aluminum box. Perhaps it creates a field element that raises adn lowers, giving the robots a short windoe of opportunity to cross from one side of the field to the other, like the year that the robots had to cross on the tilting platform.

[gallo26]

An additional thought - the holes in the inner side of the outer tubes looks like they are there so that the bolts holding the brackets to the poles can be tightened or a nut placed on them. It sounds crazy, but if the machine screw were placed from the inner aspect of the pole (using the access hole), if the screw hear were slightly rounded to match the internal diameter of the tube, and if the hole in the outer tube were countersunk (countersinked?), the connection could still be secure, yet allow the outer pole to slide over the inner.

It looks like there are short standoffs?

I like the idea of the bracket connecting to a 2x4 or aluminum box. Perhaps it creates a field element that raises adn lowers, giving the robots a short windoe of opportunity to cross from one side of the field to the other, like the year that the robots had to cross on the tilting platform.

2003 Stack Attack had the same thing. If your robot was small enough, you could just go right under

[rsisk]

The pins or nubs at either end of the game piece poles could be for connecting other pieces to it, or connecting it to another piece.

[MrForbes]

Looks to me that it's in the wrong orientation and that it is a support for something like a 2x4 or box aluminum.

This part fits into lower and upper tubes, which are part of the field. The bumps fit into holes in the tubes. It's a fairly common way to attach tubes that need to be taken apart relatively quickly.

My question is, how long do the legs on our robot need to be?

[strategic sheep]

I am in total agreement that it is not oriented correctly. It is most likely upside-down, and because of the connectors on it, it seems highly unlikely that it is a robot piece. Instead, it is more probable that this is a field piece, and many of them can be connected with poles that work with the connectors so that they form a sort of track that a ball could roll down. The curved bit on the part between the two poles suggest that there is an allowance for something round to pass above it, so it works quite well logically.

[TEntwistle]

I am in total agreement that it is not oriented correctly. It is most likely upside-down, and because of the connectors on it, it seems highly unlikely that it is a robot piece. Instead, it is more probable that this is a field piece, and many of them can be connected with poles that work with the connectors so that they form a sort of track that a ball could roll down. The curved bit on the part between the two poles suggest that there is an allowance for something round to pass above it, so it works quite well logically.

Excellent idea. If the bracket were actually on the bottom, and attached to a 2x4 or other support, and the posts on the ends were used to attached to other poles, you could make an elevated raceway or track for balls to roll on. The goal could be place balls on the raceway, push them around the track, remove balls of a certain color, or something like that.

[gallo26]

Remember what Dave's morse code said? more or less

"Nothing Is As/What It Appears to Be What Is"


That could be refering to this hint. Meaning... it might not be anything we need.

hmm so it might be talking about the size, could it be something like to driver station, and it moves along the poles

Not a clue what this means now... it could be what everyone thinks it is, or we might not be looking at the picture correctly

[VAL1ant]

I am in total agreement that it is not oriented correctly. It is most likely upside-down, and because of the connectors on it, it seems highly unlikely that it is a robot piece. Instead, it is more probable that this is a field piece, and many of them can be connected with poles that work with the connectors so that they form a sort of track that a ball could roll down. The curved bit on the part between the two poles suggest that there is an allowance for something round to pass above it, so it works quite well logically.

I thought the same thing when I saw the curved 'underside' of the piece. That could very well be it- a whole bunch of these connected could make a pretty nice ball track.

[David Brinza]

This part fits into lower and upper tubes, which are part of the field. The bumps fit into holes in the tubes. It's a fairly common way to attach tubes that need to be taken apart relatively quickly.

My question is, how long do the legs on our robot need to be?The legs should be about the same length as the arms. At, least that's what we'll have built by kickoff!:D

[strategic sheep]

The bit about "Nothing Is As/What It Appears to Be What Is" might just be suggesting that it is upside down. We can only hope that it is something we will end up using in the game, and if it is, then there are reasons for it to be designed exactly as it is. The most practical solution is likely the correct one.

[Jack Jones]

This part fits into lower and upper tubes, which are part of the field. The bumps fit into holes in the tubes. It's a fairly common way to attach tubes that need to be taken apart relatively quickly.

My question is, how long do the legs on our robot need to be?

AKA Spring Pins.

It looks to be a union that mates two pair of parallel rails.
If the ID of those rails were one inch, then the C to C width of the rails woud be ~8-1/2"

If a few sets of what we see there and the rails were vertical, they would form a set of shelves (or hangers) of sorts. Kind of like a dual pole bathtub caddy?????

EDIT - On second thought & knowing field construction and shipping limits, those missing rails would be about six feet long.
Given the radius across from the (mounting) ear in the polycarb, I'm inclined (pun intended) to think it's the mount/standoff for a set of ball returns (think bowling alley).

[pandamonium]

Love the ball track idea. I feel that the small semi circle is an important part of the clue. Seeing as we are engineers lets analyze this component. There is no structural value also this curve does not remove enough material to be considered for cost purposes; actually forming the curve depending on the technique could actually cost more money. Concluding that this was necessary for another reason quite possibly this proves a ball game.

Extended Thought: 2010 is a World cup year for soccer (foot ball) much like last year was NASA Themed. This component could be given to teams to be used to control a soccer ball. Instead of a ball rack used upside down near to the ground it could control a ball.

[Karibou]

I wake up at noon on Christmas Eve, and find tweets announcing a game hint. Looks like I won't be seeing much of my family today...

I think that this is more of an assembly of pieces, and I also agree that this is most likely a field element. Those pins on the end of the tubes look as if they would snap something into place - say, a tube of a larger diameter such as the one in the picture. The piece of lexan/whatever it may be looks like it's a separate part from the tubes.

This kind of reminds me of how the side rails from FRC fields go together, if I remember correctly (forgive me, I've only taken down a field once, and we had more important things to concentrate on while that field was being taken down).

Soooo...if you were to turn this piece so that the tubes were horizontal, and the piece of lexan faced in...and you were to add another one of those larger tubes to the end of one of them with the lexan facing in, but flipped 180 degrees...it could form some sort of a goal?

What's really throwing me off is the little bump at the top of the lexan. It reminds me of a puzzle piece. However, the bottom of it isn't shaped similarly.

Oh, and my brother said that his first impression was 'skis'. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

[strategic sheep]

If a few sets of what we see there and the rails were vertical, they would form a set of shelves (or hangers) of sorts. Kind of like a dual pole bathtub caddy?????

This could work too. The only potential problem with that idea is that the space where the piece is attached to the poles would not be practical to hang things on, and the couplings on both sides suggest that these wouldn't be end pieces so it doesn't seem efficient to have intervals of not really usable hanging space.

[dodar]

Im just curious if anyone else thinks this but for some reason I think this piece seems to be either scaled down or zoomed up on

[JVN]

To ANY Robowrangler students reading this thread:
If any of you ask me about the game hint, at any time, you will be assigned 4 hours of shop cleaning duty during week 1. No exceptions.

[GGCO]

Love the idea of some kind of track, and it looks to me like it is some sort of field piece.

The holes in the yellow plastic part suggest that it could be a part of a larger mechanism. Since there is a curve in the yellow plastic, maybe it helps the balls travel down the track (if that is what it really is).

The part looks like it could attach to other parts just like it - the back poles are the right diameter to have the front smaller poles fit inside of them. Once again, this makes me think of a track.

If it is a docking station where two robots can attach to each other, then it is only one small piece because that would DEFINITELY break under the intense environment it would be subject to.

[Eugene Fang]

Love the ball track idea. I feel that the small semi circle is an important part of the clue. Seeing as we are engineers lets analyze this component. There is no structural value also this curve does not remove enough material to be considered for cost purposes; actually forming the curve depending on the technique could actually cost more money. Concluding that this was necessary for another reason quite possibly this proves a ball game.

Yeah, I'm seeing this too. And I totally see how everything would mount to fit together.

So what size can we assume the ball is? 12 inches in diameter?

[Karibou]

Im just curious if anyone else thinks this but for some reason I think this piece seems to be either scaled down or zoomed up on

It does seem to be zoomed up a lot. Considering that this seems to be one of many of these parts, having a lot of them at that scale (which, to me, looks like about two feet long, with the lexan (?) extending out a little less than a foot), and also assuming that this is a field element, having a lot of these on the field would take up A LOT of space.


Concerning the little unused holes on the sheeting....There is one right above the curved bottom, one at the very top of the random bump, and one at the top of each side of the "wings". I would hope that these holes will be used, but I haven't the faintest idea what they would be used for, other than attaching other parts.

[TEntwistle]

I really don't think that the "yellow" piece is Lexan or plastic. In Autodesk Inventor, when you are working on some pieces, you can make it so others are almost translucent so that you can see what you are working on better. (Or this happens automatically, I am just now learning Inventor, so I don't have it all down yet)

As for the upper bump in the center piece, if it is to connect to a support system, the bump gives the ability to place 2 screws or bolts in the piece to make it sturdier. Thus, it could have a use.

[Eugene Fang]

It does seem to be zoomed up a lot. Considering that this seems to be one of many of these parts, having a lot of them at that scale (which, to me, looks like about two feet long, with the lexan (?) extending out a little less than a foot), and also assuming that this is a field element, having a lot of these on the field would take up A LOT of space.


Concerning the little unused holes on the sheeting....There is one right above the curved bottom, one at the very top of the random bump, and one at the top of each side of the "wings". I would hope that these holes will be used, but I haven't the faintest idea what they would be used for, other than attaching other parts.

Assuming it's 1/4" lexan, the width should be 8-9 inches, so the length is about 12-14?

[Eugene Fang]

I really don't think that the "yellow" piece is Lexan or plastic. In Autodesk Inventor, when you are working on some pieces, you can make it so others are almost translucent so that you can see what you are working on better. (Or this happens automatically, I am just now learning Inventor, so I don't have it all down yet)

I'm pretty sure Inventor's "Smoked Polycarbonate" material looks yellow. Can anyone confirm this?

[gallo26]

I'm pretty sure Inventor's "Smoked Polycarbonate" material looks yellow. Can anyone confirm this?

Yes, that's Inventor's Smoked Polycarbonate

[TEntwistle]

I really think that the holes in the bracket are going to be used to mount the shown piece to a support, making it a field element. The holes are in a similar pattern and size (relative to the bracket device itself) that are seen in brackets used to mount joists in deck and home building. Someone had mentioned a 2x4 earlier in the thread. If this is correct, then the length of this unit would be roughly 6". If soccer balls are to roll on the track, you could have relatively long expanses of track between the supports (if that is indeed what wee have been shown)

[Jack Jones]

SKEE BALL

[ttldomination]

Ah, the joys of another game hint, and that too on the day of Christmas Eve. :D.

I think that the piece is part of a larger piece, I think the thing will be vertically mounted, so where you see the "bump" that is essentially "down." And I think we all are making a terrible assumption in saying the game pieces are balls.

I look forward to the second clue. :D. Hopefully it'll be another picture and not a riddle like it was last yr. :D

- ttl

[Brandon Holley]

To ANY Robowrangler students reading this thread:
If any of you ask me about the game hint, at any time, you will be assigned 4 hours of shop cleaning duty during week 1. No exceptions.

I love this policy JVN. I think I will be adopting it for my team.

[thefro526]

To ANY Robowrangler students reading this thread:
If any of you ask me about the game hint, at any time, you will be assigned 4 hours of shop cleaning duty during week 1. No exceptions.

I totally lol-ed when I read this.

Back on topic though, I think this is a field element - it almost looks like you could have to lift it up at the end of the match to get points or something like that. Or not?

[rtfgnow]

To ANY Robowrangler students reading this thread:
If any of you ask me about the game hint, at any time, you will be assigned 4 hours of shop cleaning duty during week 1. No exceptions.

To ANY Robowrangler student reading this thread:
I will pay generously for John's opinion of which individual person suggested this picture be used as the hint. No answers from JVN or anyone outside of team 148 will be accepted or rewarded.

[gorrilla]

It honestly does look like the heel support portion of an adjustable ski binding...

My slalom ski is built nearly the same way, except square rails instead of a round tube....

[EAGLE13]

Assuming it's 1/4" lexan, the width should be 8-9 inches, so the length is about 12-14?


A standard size 5 soccer ball is 8.65 inches in diameter, so that fits right in with that width you have, so if its right, we're getting somewhere

[jason701802]

All i can say is if this is a part of the field, they are following their tradition of making fields that are very expensive to replicate

[strategic sheep]

Because of the Lexan/Smoked Polycarbonate part being mounted to the outside of the bars and the screws being recessed on only the inside, that leaves the useful area (during game play) of the piece as the space right between the bars. Which also accounts for the otherwise unnecessary seeming curved bit. And the hardware seems pretty heavy duty--I'm almost inclined to think it is scaled down.

[pandamonium]

Approximating the ball size assuming an 8in distance between poles and 1in pole diameter and allowing for a tolerance of 1/4 of an inch between the circular shape and the ball, optimal diameter should be approximately 9 inches. This is similar to the size of a soccer ball I made a prototype and it fits oddly well. Admittedly though I am a huge soccer fan and have been hoping for a soccer game for years.

[Dan Zollman]

It's part of an adjustable stilt. The polycarb supports the foot and provides a place to mount the boot. The human players will be wearing stilts during the match.

[jerry w]

A standard size 5 soccer ball is 8.65 inches in diameter, so that fits right in with that width you have, so if its right, we're getting somewhere

The arch in the lexan can be used to judge the max diameter of a ball. We would not need a small diameter arch for a large ball. The spacing between rails determines the min diameter of the ball. as soon as we determine these dimensions, we can start evaluating the common ball types for the game.

[dqmot17]

could this be a way to string the robots together?

[Nin_estarSaerah]

The arch could also be there simply to throw us off and make us assume that the game piece is a ball. :yikes:

But that is perhaps too devious.

[Eugene Fang]

If the lexan is indeed 1/4 inch, then the small tube is 1.25" in dia and the large tube is 1.5 inches in dia.

And its 7.75 inches from inside to inside of the lexan.

[rtfgnow]

What if each end of the pipes holds a wheel and it supports some big movable goal? Sort of like in zone zeal.

[Akash Rastogi]

This has nothing to do with the game...BUT, does that look like Solidworks or Inventor to you guys? Feels like a SW render.

[Eugene Fang]

This has nothing to do with the game...BUT, does that look like Solidworks or Inventor to you guys? Feels like a SW render.

I'm 99% sure it's Inventor.

It's the default reflective ground, and the "smoked lexan" is ugly yellow. =)

[scottmacdonald]

The GDC is the Grinch because they just stole my Christmas!:rolleyes:

The hint looks like it could be moved around and maybe stacked on another two of whatever we are calling this piece.

Stacking challenge?

[DMetalKong]

The arch could also be there simply to throw us off and make us assume that the game piece is a ball. :yikes:

But that is perhaps too devious.

Assuming that the piece will be included as part of the field as-is, it probably is a track of some kind, because otherwise the arch cutout just adds time and effort to the manufacture.

Edit: My brother's first thought looking at it was "sled"

[sanddrag]

My prediction is that this is a robot piece, that will be included in every kit, and that JVN oversaw the manufacturing of :D . It will be mounted high on the robot, and hangars (not pictuered) will be affixed to the pipes on either side. As in last year, the goal is the opponent robot. You will have to hook rings over these hangars (much like 07). At the end of the match, the quick release pins permit quick removal of the rings from the robots, and installation of the hangars onto the next teams' robots. There will be two special color rings that if a robot gets hooked with, voids the tally of the rings it is holding.

Oh, and bumpers will be mandatory, and the floor may not be carpet.

That's what I gather from this.

[dqmot17]

square game pieces anyone?

[Big Kid]

The first thing I picked out was that the piece of lexan is cut with a circle on the bottom and the top is half open

[HashemReza]

It's Christmas eve. I'm sick. Why, GDC, do you have such pinpoint timing? :)

Well, frankly I wouldn't rule out it being a game-piece. If it doesn't seem sturdy enough, remember last year's orbit balls? Yeah, not the sturdiest of tools.

In any case, I like the idea of this being the goal somehow, vertically standing, and changing height. Perhaps this has something to do with human player interaction? Because I don't think that we could really design an effective robot to press those damned side-buttons in! Those things are DEATH.

Inevitably, I have no idea. :D

Happy Christmas.

EDIT: Oh, and I forgot to mention. What if a bunch of these little buggers attach to each other via the pipes?

[gallo26]

I spent a few minutes trying to recreate this in Inventor. I completely guessed on a lot of the stuff, so it looks different from the original model, but I think the CAD renders will display some things. I apologize if my post seems huge because of the picture size

First off, we have the original. Now my problem was that no matter what, i could not create this reflection circled in red. As you can see, this must be another part that corresponds with this. A pole with pins in it.

http://www.teamkrunch.com/Team_Media/Original.jpg

Here is the model I tried to replicate. Same background with the reflection, same material.

http://www.teamkrunch.com/Team_Media/Game_Hint_Recreation.jpg

I flipped the render. I was too lazy to get the background perfect, but everyone who was talking about a track, I'm sure this is what your imagining


http://www.teamkrunch.com/Team_Media/Flipped_Render_2.jpg

[Karibou]

While I still think that this is a field element, if it IS a robot piece...my vote goes to battery mount. Doesn't it just look like a battery would fit in there nicely? ;)

Though the reason that I don't think that it's a robot part is because of the pins/bolts/?? at the ends of the two tubes. No matter where this assembly would attach, it would be VERY constricting in terms of robot design. I understand that the rover wheels last year changed drive trains a lot, but most teams were able to simply modify whatever they had previously used to encompass a differently sized wheel. If this part is to scale by Inventor standards, it seems like it would HIGHLY constrict robot design - even if you found a different way to attach it to your robot/were allowed to do so.
I'm not trying to shut down any ideas; just my $0.02

[GBilletdeaux930]

I'm just gonna throw this out there. But I don't think focusing on the reflection is going to do us any good. There is going to obviously be other stuff on the field besides this part.

[Eugene Fang]

I spent a few minutes trying to recreate this in Inventor. I completely guessed on a lot of the stuff, so it looks different from the original model, but I think the CAD renders will display some things. I apologize if my post seems huge because of the picture size

Cool. Try making the inside to inside of the lexan 7.75" apart, the large tube 1.5" in dia, and the small tube 1.25" in dia.

Assuming 0.25" thick lexan.

I'm still trying to find out the radius of that curve cutout.

[johnr]

Maybe it's just a part of the new entrance gate to the field. No? Then what if you turn the object vertical and mount a few of them on the end wall,a few feet into the field,making the lexan the stationary part. This would make the poles the moving part,with set distance of travel due to the stop pins. I think those are stop pins because i have never seen back to back push pins. It could be put at a height that the top pin would stop, what i will call a wall, from falling all the way to the floor. This gap at the floor is so your bot can slide the wall up and push the game piece into the scoring area.

[Tetraman]

The only thing I can gather from this, is that whatever this piece is, it's apart of the field, and it's not laying on the ground. It has to be some part of a larger mechanism, something like The Rack, only this is a lot more interesting.

[Ted Weisse]

The pins could be like those on some tent poles. Press them in and slide the pole till they snap into the holes on the outer tube. This would allow the inner pole to lock in either of the holes.

[Justin Montois]

I'm going to echo what others have said in terms of it doesn't seem to be strong enough to withstand direct robot interaction. this could very well be a part of the Human Player interaction but I just don't see it being part of a scoring structure that will need to withstand the abuse of a match/competition.

In any event, Welcome tot he 2010 FIRST Robotics Competition

If your a rookie, don't lose sleep over this hint, but have fun with it.

Happy Holidays everyone! Enjoy spending time with your family because 16 days from now you will see them very little over the following 6 weeks.

[Sin2800]

I see one odd problem with the adjustability...The little nubs that go into the yellow piece...Well, they don't go all the way through. If you were to push them in to adjust it, they would just like...fall into the tube. Also, if you were to move the thing, the nubs don't like, match up. Imagine the middle part being moved up to lock in place... only one of the holes would have the little pin in it. Why make two holes in the middle then? Another thing - because the little nubs or whatever holding the yellow part on don't go through...they could be either hollow, which WOULD allow for adjustment...somewhat...or, the middle tube and them are all one solid piece, but then how does the yellow part snap on...THE FACT THAT THE PINS DON'T GO ALL THE WAY THROUGH SCREWS EVERYTHING UP.

Another thought - The nubs on the ends are for attachment of other pieces. Ergo, the thing is NOT adjustable.

Also - What about the 4 other holes in the yellow part?

Idea explaining end pins - more tubes attach to the bottom and top, making some weird abomination of mechanical engineering, aka an obstacle or something of some sort.

[MFennig8]

Hey guys,

Look, yes FIRST is known for its trickery and hints, but maybe we have not looked at it fully. Try turning the picture 90 degrees. It looks like a holder for a game piece that could easily be mounted on the side of the field. I mean yes it is a little farther out. But I looked and thought it would be a trailer hitch again. With how it looked and where you can just roll up to a trailer, hook on, move it around and even dump w.e it is inside the trailer somewhere else. But with the look out of it. I see a high game piece, maybe even an extra bonus piece being placed up there. Or, even the last second bonus area to score. Maybe finally seeing some square game pieces like the Wall of totes in 2001.

[gallo26]

Cool. Try making the inside to inside of the lexan 7.75" apart, the large tube 1.5" in dia, and the small tube 1.25" in dia.

Assuming 0.25" thick lexan.

I'm still trying to find out the radius of that curve cutout.

I'll work on that. I was very close. The inside to inside of the lexan was 8". the large tube diameter was 1.5", and i kept the wall thickness at 0.83" which is what FIRST used is the past for field elements made out of steel. Especially the Overpass. The small tube is 1.417" in diameter only because I just made it off of the inner diameter of the large pipe. Same wall thickness.

I can't remember the radius of the cutout, but I believe it was 11"

[mcf747]

Top 100!!!

Sorry I had to before this tread becomes 900 posts long, :)
It looks like Christmas really did come early this year.

As far as the part goes I question a few things that I don't think we can quite make out.

1. Do the spring pins depress are are they fixed.
2. If fixed do the pipes that they are on rotate around the center object so something can "screw" onto it to lock it (or the robot for that matter) in position.
3. I have worked with with this type of "locking mechanisms" in both applications, and both have different advantages and disadvantages.

Ok on a final note my grandparents just flew into town and for kicks I had to ask...."Grama and Grampa what do you think this is?" They said it looked like the "Spaceship Branson is flying people into space with" I have to say they are sorta close.

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01539/space4_1539411c.jpg

[Eugene Fang]

Assuming it's a ball track, here is a picture showing the relative size of things (from what I could gather from the picture), and the possible size of the ball.

Note that the 8.25" width of the lexan is from outside to outside.

Sorry for the messy dimensioning. I did this quickly.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_-AQ1h_gLd2w/SzO9dR71XKI/AAAAAAAAMdg/31BOB1LskZ0/Game%20Hint%20Sketch.PNG

[Bharat Nain]

Top 100!!!

Sorry I had to before this tread becomes 900 posts long, :)
It looks like Christmas really did come early this year.

As far as the part goes I question a few things that I don't think we can quite make out.

1. Do the spring pins depress are are they fixed.
2. If fixed do the pipes that they are on rotate around the center object so something can "screw" onto it to lock it (or the robot for that matter) in position.
3. I have worked with with this type of "locking mechanisms" in both applications, and both have different advantages and disadvantages.



Makes me think this is a projectile device of some type. I liked 2006. Maybe we'll have another year of balls flying around.

[RoboMaster]

How's this for the size? Ah, the mocking-up skills you learn as a FRC team member. Cardboard (or this case, printer paper) is a wonderful thing. Anyone else want to to a better job?

[Boydean]

I already posted this in the other thread, but hey here we go.

I say they are lasers, and you have targets you have to shoot. The field is foggy too. There are some safety issues involved, but hey I can dream right?

[sanddrag]

So who is going to start looking at game hint suggestion threads from years past to see where this could fit?

[TEntwistle]

Maybe it's just a part of the new entrance gate to the field. No? Then what if you turn the object vertical and mount a few of them on the end wall,a few feet into the field,making the lexan the stationary part. This would make the poles the moving part,with set distance of travel due to the stop pins. I think those are stop pins because i have never seen back to back push pins. It could be put at a height that the top pin would stop, what i will call a wall, from falling all the way to the floor. This gap at the floor is so your bot can slide the wall up and push the game piece into the scoring area.

The pins can still be locking pins where you take the next piece of piping (one per side) that has a groove in it that is L-shaped. Push it on, rotate, and it locks. If any of you work in a hospital, it is much akin to the locking cap on a Swan-Ganz catheter sheath.

[Arefin Bari]

Come on guys and girls, it's one of those fancy camera mounts.

... For those of you who are actually pulling their hair out over this game hint, please don't take me seriously. I just had to say something.

[Nurnburger]

I think the holes in the big pipe are merely access points for the nuts on the polycarb-to-pipe bolts.

I like the ball track idea, but I see a problem with the pins. They seem to stick out farther than the thickness of the big pipe, so they would interfere with a ball riding the rails. Another note on those pins. What are the white spots? My thoughts are either those spring balls thingers or holes for cotter pins.

I can't decide if the big pipe slides up and down the smaller one, but I'm more inclined to say it doesn't.

The tab thing on the polycarb stumps me.

[HashemReza]

hm...interesting that they seem to have given us a tangible design as opposed to something more...cerebral.

Last year was a fish, where we had to deduce that the field would be slippery. Now we're being given what seems to be a field element. Just interesting.

Unless it's not a field element, and it's supposed to somehow get us to think of an aspect that the game will have...like, interlocking, for example. No idea.

[Caroline2399]

Is anyone good at image encryption/decryption? Might be something hidden in there which would go with the whole "nothing is as it seems" hint brought up earlier...

[Taylor]

While I like the idea of the 'bowling alley return' structure, I don't see why lexan was used. Surely there are other materials laying around HQ that are ligher and *cheaper* for that purpose. Lexan would be used so people need to see through it; I struggle to reason why a support piece like this would need to be transparent.
I can't help but be reminded of the 2007 hint.

[jmanela]

maybe instead of thinking left and right, we should think of and down. What if this is part of a conveyor system that moves over a wall or something. Robots would score by putting the game piece on it and it would get higher and higher, or something.

[Justin Montois]

OK upon looking closer at this, I think we all saw the holes and assumed it was the "adjustable pin and hole" setup. I don't think this is the case. I think the holes you see in the rod is merely an access hole so you can attach the lexan. I think the posts that are sticking out are just stoppers to prevent the lexan assembly from sliding too far.

What does that mean? I have no idea. I still stand by the fact that it seems too small and weak to be a robot interaction element.

[Eugene Fang]

OK upon looking closer at this, I think we all saw the holes and assumed it was the "adjustable pin and hole" setup. I don't think this is the case. I think the holes you see in the rod is merely an access hole so you can attach the lexan. I think the posts that are sticking out are just stoppers to prevent the lexan assembly from sliding too far.

My take on this:
The "access holes" you talk about is for recessing the nut of the bolt, so whatever slides/rolls on the track (yes, I still think it's a track) won't get hit.

Also, I don't believe that the lexan assembly slides on the small tube for the reason that it can't; there are no slots cut in the small tube that would be necessary to clear the bolt attaching the lexan to the big tube.

[jamie_1930]

It connects to something in the field as the Overpass did in Overdrive. if you look at the smoked lexan, you can see a reflection of a pole (not the two poles visible to us) But a pole with 2 visible pegs. Those could be connections for other pieces? A field element?

Its obviously a render of the field, or more than just this part, they just moved the background plane during the render.

I'll throw stuff out there. I already said a field connection part. So something structural. It could also be an autoloader for some piece. A ball or something, Part, Box, Playing element, that the robots could get at and it would always be filled (by a volunteer!) from 2005.

Thoughts??

I wouldn't bother on looking at the reflection it looks like the part was made on a type of CAD software and thus the reflection you see is most likely a default function. That in this case looks like it's reflecting the upper pole on the part. Although this may vary well be part of an element we will have to score on just like in 2007 the game hint was the diamond plate piece that could be seen on the front of the scoring rack.

[Chris is me]

I'm going to guess it's an autoloader, tilted on its side, for some game piece. It just looks like the lexan is designed to seat things. Of course, it could also be a goal... but the lexan and bars just make me think of stacking something "tetra like" on it.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to read every $@#$@#$@#$@# page of this thread just to see what you guys are all thinking...

[gallo26]

I wouldn't bother on looking at the reflection it looks like the part was made on a type of CAD software and thus the reflection you see is most likely a default function. That in this case looks like it's reflecting the upper pole on the part. Although this may vary well be part of an element we will have to score on just like in 2007 the game hint was the diamond plate piece that could be seen on the front of the scoring rack.


I've tested that, and Inventor wont refract the reflection like that. Its very odd. Because it IS lexan, its clear you can see the upper pole through it. Like i said before, its most likely a cad model of the whole field. They moved the background just below that part to cut anything out.

The reflection most definitely reminds me of the 2007 game hint. If you looked close enough, you could see the spider legs through the inner tube

[Justin Montois]

Also, I don't believe that the lexan assembly slides on the small tube for the reason that it can't; there are no slots cut in the small tube that would be necessary to clear the bolt attaching the lexan to the big tube.

That is a good point. So the question becomes, why even have the larger tube? Why not just attach the lexan to one length of the larger tube...?

[Eugene Fang]

That is a good point. So the question becomes, why even have the larger tube? Why not just attach the lexan to one length of the larger tube...?

Collapsibility for transportation.

[BrendanB]

Hey guys,

Look, yes FIRST is known for its trickery and hints, but maybe we have not looked at it fully. Try turning the picture 90 degrees. It looks like a holder for a game piece that could easily be mounted on the side of the field. I mean yes it is a little farther out. But I looked and thought it would be a trailer hitch again. With how it looked and where you can just roll up to a trailer, hook on, move it around and even dump w.e it is inside the trailer somewhere else. But with the look out of it. I see a high game piece, maybe even an extra bonus piece being placed up there. Or, even the last second bonus area to score. Maybe finally seeing some square game pieces like the Wall of totes in 2001.

I would agree that it could hold something if turned upwards. Maybe they need to be moved from one area on the field, stacked together vertically, and then a game piece is placed in the slot created.


Oh and wall o totes was 2003!

THANK YOU GDC FOR RELEASING A HINT FOR CHRISTMAS!:D

[gallo26]

I keep going back to this, but in 2008 with the Overpass, FIRST made connectors that would link two ends together, the connector would snap the two together. But the only problem is I don't see any inner connections making the smaller pipe a connector.

Being that it IS lexan... this can't support anything that would be in an extreme force environment. Maybe it's a ball shoot behind the driver station like 2006, but with less jams. I dont know about an auto loader. I thought that, but the lexan + speeding robot = *snap* It must be something robots don't come directly in contact with.

[jerry w]

I've tested that, and Inventor wont refract the reflection like that. Its very odd. Because it IS lexan, its clear you can see the upper pole through it. Like i said before, its most likely a cad model of the whole field. They moved the background just below that part to cut anything out.

The reflection most definitely reminds me of the 2007 game hint. If you looked close enough, you could see the spider legs through the inner tube

You need to consider that the lexan is not square. It leans slightly. Thus the reflection is the result of the leaning lexan. the balls will roll downhill if the support contains an angle holding the rails.

[jmanela]

now here is a question, why is the top shaped the way that it is? Is it pushing or pullng something? It is pretty high compared to the rest of the assembly. and why the hole at the top? would it attach to some sort of backboard like in a basketball net?

It is also shaped like it could hold some sort of cylindrical prism. Remember the coke can from [BB]?
http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2009/07/what-do-crackerjacks-have-to-do-with.html

[Brad Voracek]

I've already figured out the entire game from this picture, minus a few small details that I'm just going to extrapolate from previous years.

Starting work on our robot now...

For those of you still working on it: the shadows are important, play with it in photoshop for a few hours... And what JVN said is really important to figuring the game out, just have to do a little research..

Good luck all, this is the most revealing hint FIRST has given yet.

[Chris is me]

Also worth noting before I leave: What are the four holes in the actual lexan for?

1/4 lexan could probably take a few hits. I heard there's this one team that builds their frame out of it... crazy. Granted, unless there's a "slow down when approaching this item" rule, mandatory bumbers, and / or some other collision mechanism, there's pretty much a 1000% chance these could break in competition if they were an autoloader as we know them. Unless the whole assembly is mounted outside the field so only large arms could hit them...

A quick play with the Hue / Saturation Photoshop sliders got me nothing you wouldn't expect with the reflection. I wouldn't try it.

[BrendanB]

I've already figured out the entire game from this picture, minus a few small details that I'm just going to extrapolate from previous years.

Starting work on our robot now...

For those of you still working on it: the shadows are important, play with it in photoshop for a few hours... And what JVN said is really important to figuring the game out, just have to do a little research..

Good luck all, this is the most revealing hint FIRST has given yet.

Dude, I'll give you $20 bucks if you PM with the details, I've serviced mad people all day (7-3) I don't need to think about this!

please?
EDIT: or at least send the picture! please?
i doubt you have it figured out!

[jmanela]

i know people have been saying that it is too weak for robots to handle, what if it was meant for the human player to push or pull *note the big handle on top

[rtfgnow]

What if it holds a game piece at the beginning of a match like in 2004.

[Eugene Fang]

You need to consider that the lexan is not square. It leans slightly. Thus the reflection is the result of the leaning lexan. the balls will roll downhill if the support contains an angle holding the rails.

Intersting idea. But where is the lexan bent? Or is it attached to the tubes non perpendicularly? I can't seem to see either case in the picture.

[Brad Voracek]

Dude, I'll give you $20 bucks if you PM with the details, I've serviced mad people all day (7-3) I don't need to think about this!

please?
EDIT: or at least send the picture! please?
i doubt you have it figured out!

It'll cost you 40 ;)

[RoboMaster]

I really think that someone should play around with this on the technical side. Photoshop, encryption. Use your 2009 fish hint skills!!

You need to consider that the lexan is not square. It leans slightly. Thus the reflection is the result of the leaning lexan. the balls will roll downhill if the support contains an angle holding the rails.

Could someone explains what this means? I don't see any lean in the lexan... Is it leaning forwards? Or do you just mean the whole part is rotated for a diagonal view?

[BrendanB]

It'll cost you 40 ;)

Yah, Merry Christmas to you too... $40 my foot!;) hahaha

[martinswat1806]

I think this years game will be a lot like 2005.
I looks like they cycle the style. the trailers from last year were similar to part of the field in 2004.

[Chris is me]

I really think that someone should play around with this on the technical side. Photoshop, encryption. Use your 2009 fish hint skills!!

I have been. Playing with the colors results in just the lexan reflecting what's already visible in the picture, and nothing else.

[Eugene Fang]

I really think that someone should play around with this on the technical side. Photoshop, encryption. Use your 2009 fish hint skills!!



Could someone explains what this means? I don't see any lean in the lexan... Is it leaning forwards? Or do you just mean the whole part is rotated for a diagonal view?

He means that the lexan is not perpendicular in relationship to the tubes, or else the reflection on the top "bump" of the lexan wouldn't be at the angle it is at.

[rtfgnow]

Instead of dealing with the image, lets look at the object.

[martinswat1806]

Maybe they have a series of these stacked on top of each other which are randomly adjusted kind of like the ball placement in 2008.

[ebmonon36]

For all of those who think <Admiral Ackbar>It's a track! </Admiral Ackbar>, see this thread to help your case:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78803

Eric

[Tetraman]

I'm just posting this cause it came to mind: If there are multiple hints, like two others, I'm sure that they will also be some kind of piture like this, and each of the three pictures of game elements combine together, like a puzzle, to form something.

Because this is the best I've come up with so far, I'm calling this is something the Human Player interacts with, like a slingshot mechanism or "loading dock" object.

[jerry w]

He means that the lexan is not perpendicular in relationship to the tubes, or else the reflection on the top "bump" of the lexan wouldn't be at the angle it is at.

(OK i am the software guy, so i didn't say it right!!)
Yes the tubes are fastened at an angle with respect to the tab on the lexan. When the tab is fastened to a vertical support, the track will have a small tilt. The reflection shows double the actual angle. So it should not be too hard to determine the rolling angle of the track.

[Eugene Fang]

(OK i am the software guy, so i didn't say it right!!)
Yes the tubes are fastened at an angle with respect to the tab on the lexan. When the tab is fastened to a vertical support, the track will have a small tilt. The reflection shows double the actual angle. So it should not be too hard to determine the rolling angle of the track.

So the angle is really tiny.

Is the lexan not screwed in perpendicular to the tubes? Or is the lexan attached perpendicularly, but the first bend is not perpendicular to the ground? I really can't tell where the bend is occurring (though there obviously has to be one).

What does everyone think?

[RoboMaster]

For all of those who think <Admiral Ackbar>It's a track! </Admiral Ackbar>, see this thread .....
Eric

Hmm, yes, Dave Lavery's Morse code posts and some people referencing them to trains and train tracks early on..... I still think that's a bit of a stretch. But I do think the hint as a ball track is still a possibility.

[viking]

In 2007 was the game hint an actual photograph or was it CAD? I am not finding it my files at home.

My question is....why would they send us a CAD drawing and not a actual photo of the field element?

[Taylor]

The 'reflection' in the Lexan is not a reflection at all. It's a refraction of the bar directly behind it. Thus the 30* angle.

I'm still curious, why use Lexan at all? The materials used are as much a hint as the geometry of the pieces. Transparency is needed at that point - could this structure be mounted near the drivers' station? Going with the ball-track idea, perhaps the game pieces are elevated along the drivers' station wall and the teams would need to see through it to see how many objects are there.

-Theory-

The robots' starting configuration is restricted vertically (60 inches); the robots must expand upwards in some way to retrive the game pieces that are located higher than the drivers' heads (7 feet). Throughout the game, the Human Players may replenish the game object track which is mounted along the drivers' station wall. After retrieving the game piece(s) the robots must collapse back down to go under an obstacle to get to the scoring goal, located at the center of the field.
The scoring goal is similar in looks to a disc golf goal, but on a much larger scale, with a device on top that the cameras can detect autonomously. The game objects are alliance-colored (blue and red).

[Eugene Fang]

In 2007 was the game hint an actual photograph or was it CAD? I am not finding it my files at home.

My question is....why would they send us a CAD drawing and not a actual photo of the field element?

It was rendered:

http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedImages/Community/FRC/Assets/2007Clue1.jpg

[Eugene Fang]

The 'reflection' in the lexan is not a reflection at all. It's a refraction of the bar directly behind it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure, it wouldn't physically refract like that.

[gallo26]

I'm not sure now... I like the track thing. Now if people continued to run with this idea...

That just seems like a LOT of stuff on one field. I dont understand what would be done with the track. Would it be around the perimeter of the field? Up high? Where we get the game elements? Or where we place them? end game? Soo many questions...

[Eugene Fang]

Upon further inspection, I'm actually a little bit confused about the reflecting/refracting thing now.

Reason why I'm pretty sure it's not refracting the bar behind the lexan:
- You can't physically get it to refract like that (and you clearly see the non-refracted version of the bar through the lexan)

Reason why the lexan and bars are perpendicular:
- You can see the reflection of the left "bend" of the lexan, and it's perfectly vertical

Reason why the lexan and bars are NOT perpendicular:
- That weird angled reflection

[GGCO]

It looks like the reflection is almost a blue tube. If this is only 1/2 of a larger unit, maybe it fits inside of the game piece? I've attached a REALLY LOUSY photoshopped image of what the other half might look like. Basically, I think that it could fit over the current lexan and be secured by bolts or something - this would explain the holes in the lexan....

http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs154.snc3/18137_1260572429114_1073787706_30817341_6994841_n. jpg

Then again, maybe I'm just nuts!

[RoboMaster]

Here's an annotated picture. Compare to the original to see what I am coloring over.

Red: reflection of left side of top tube, which is arrowed red
Blue: image of top right tube seen through the lexan
Purple: reflection of side "tab" (arrowed purple) and related screws (circled in reflection)
Green: reflection of curve
Yellow: unknown

At least, those are my thoughts. I'm having second guesses about the blue annotations, those reflections have a notch in them where there shouldn't be one. (The red has a notch/ledge if you don't know what I mean)

[Eugene Fang]

It looks like the reflection is almost a blue tube.

Are you talking about the 2007 game hint?

[TEntwistle]

Here's an annotated picture. Compare to the original to see what I am coloring over.

Red: reflection of top left tube, which is arrowed red
Blue: image of top right tube seen through the lexan
Purple: reflection of side "tab" (arrowed purple) and related screws (circled in reflection)
Green: reflection of curve
Yellow: unknown

I agree with this completely. What if the purpose of the hint is just to suggest that we will be working with reflected images? Could there be mirrors on the playing field, or camera-aided vision that is electronically altered to give us a distorted (reflected) image?

[Eugene Fang]

Here's an annotated picture. Compare to the original to see what I am coloring over.

Red: reflection of top left tube, which is arrowed red
Blue: image of top right tube seen through the lexan
Purple: reflection of side "tab" (arrowed purple) and related screws (circled in reflection)
Green: reflection of curve
Yellow: unknown

At least, those are my thoughts. I'm having second guesses about the blue annotations, those reflections have a notch in them where there shouldn't be one. (The red has a notch/ledge if you don't know what I mean)

Thanks that clears it up a lot.
But I think the purple circles you have are more related to the "reflected red" than the purple. And I still don't get how it's reflecting. If the purple is vertical, it means the lexan is not bent. Yet it has to be bent for the reflected red to be angled.

Also, I think the "unknown yellow" is the real reflection of the top left tube, making it the red that's unkown.
See this post http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=890379&postcount=77

[FIRSTtm134]

I think it is similar to the 2007 game where you had to stack swim tubes. maybe you have to stack something on a series of these attached to some sort of rack. I dont think it will be a center piece like in 2007 but maybe 2 per alliance? something small, maybe raised off the ground about 2 ft rising up to 5 ft? just throwing it out there.

[Bomberofdoom]

It's a set of support parts that telescope.

And with the reflections it's not on water its ON ICE!!

It's an ICE ski support with the rest of the ski to be attached.

WE ARE ON THE ICE! Woo roboteers, start your skate machines!

First one to mention it, so I kudos him for having the same thought as I have. :D
Now to look through the rest of the posts...:ahh:

[GGCO]

Are you talking about the 2007 game hint?

Nope - this year's clue.

[Eugene Fang]

Nope - this year's clue.

Oh I get what you're talking about now. Yeah, theres an odd tint of blue to the reflection...

[GGCO]

First one to mention it, so I kudos him for having the same thought as I have. :D
Now to look through the rest of the posts...:ahh:

Vancouver Olympics theme anyone?

[FIRSTtm134]

Lets just hope its not the speed skating even where we go in circles like in 2008 XD

[RoboMaster]

Oh I get what you're talking about now. Yeah, theres an odd tint of blue to the reflection...

That is interesting. Only what is being reflected that is blue? It's the background, which I take to be another CAD software fault. Just like how the lexan is yellowish.

[gallo26]

That is interesting. Only what is being reflected that is blue? It's the background, which I take to be another CAD software fault. Just like how the lexan is yellowish.

Well I'm not too sure it' blue. I think thats just what the reflection looks like in the lexan. Its smoked lexan, which looks like a funny yellow when rendered. It could be a pole of any color for support, or interaction. It could even be a really large pole, but really far away from this piece making the reflection tiny.

[Joe Schornak]

After careful examination of the object, I have concluded that it is, in fact, a track. [Insert Admiral Ackbar Here]

The little nubby-things towards the ends of the pipes will lock into a larger rail assembly. The small angle of the Lexan and the rounded cut in the top edge of the piece allow balls to roll along it,

Beyond this point, there are two possible functions of the object within the track assembly:

1. It's a support for the track. The transparent material is not, in fact, Lexan, but a solid-state transparent titanium alloy, allowing the delicate-looking support to withstand the high stress of any gameplay.

2. More likely, the Lexan serves as a mounting point for some sort of ball-counting sensor. This would allow accurate real-time scoring of large numbers of balls. It could include a color sensor, in which case the balls are multi-colored and worth different values for each color.

I envision a track system mounted above the driver stations on each end of the field (assuming normal field shape) or on the sides where the payload special1sts were in 2009. Balls start at some central point in the field, and must be collected by the robots and placed or shot into some sort of recepticle, whereupon they fall onto the track and roll past the ball counter into a return device. Balls are worth different point values depending on their color, and perhaps begin in different places based on their color, with the high-value ones the most difficult to collect.

Of course, this is probably all wrong, and the object will be used as some sort of judging device in the pits. FIRST would do that, just to spite us.

More to come after further thought.

[GGCO]

Of course, this is probably all wrong, and the object will be used as some sort of judging device in the pits. FIRST would do that, just to spite us.

That would be VERY funny, but I also do think that if it's a part of the field then it will be by the driver's stations. Maybe the human players feed balls into the track, and there is some kind of shooting mechanism firing the balls across the field - what if the robots have to catch the balls in mid air for an extra bonus! WOW! Now THAT is unrealistic!

[Karibou]

Question - does anyone have proof that those poles aren't 39 and a half feet long? ;)


Sorry, I couldn't resist...

[kgzak]

Idea 1.
It will be used to hold the game pieces at the beginning of the match and the robots will have to connect to the two pins in order to get the game piece.

Idea 2.
It will be a track at each side of the filed on an angle that causes the balls to roll to each end of the field. Again used as a start of game game piece holder, or scoring rack.

Idea 3.
This is not used in the game at all but rather what the idea the piece is demonstrating is the theme of the game. Like if it is elevator like the game is based on raising/lowering objects.

I'm probably wrong but thats all I've got for now.

[gallo26]

This whole thing could be an experiment. The GDC probably took bets on how many posts they could get off of a random CAD render, and bonus points for how many people go insane from thinking about it! :yikes:

I'm going to pay close attention to Dean during his long kickoff speech. in 2008 He continued to say Overdrive, claiming it wasn't a hint, yet it was. Anything could be a hint now... hmmm... the paranoia sets in. Mark down 1 for insane...

[RoboMaster]

Yeah, last year he said "slippery slope" and that was a definite biggie. Now we know. Does he do that a lot? I've only been around for 2 years, I wouldn't know past 2008.

One thing to think about is whether or not those nubs on the ends are actually push-in-spring-loaded-pins that attach to holes. They might just be latching tabs. Actually I think someone mentioned this already, with a reference to some hospital device. Like with an L shape where you slide it in and then turn. Or maybe something else?

[lbarger]

I spent a few minutes trying to recreate this in Inventor. I completely guessed on a lot of the stuff, so it looks different from the original model, but I think the CAD renders will display some things. I apologize if my post seems huge because of the picture size



Good work Gallo26. Try making the sheet piece (Lexan?) not perpendicular to the rods. So that if the bracket were vertical, the rods would be sloped. I think this might yield the reflection seen.

[RobertG]

This is not a game element. It is a model of part of the field. We will have a large divider in the middle of the field with a low opening and holes to pass game pieces to the other side. My reasoning is based on the "all is not as it appears" hint, my personal experience of the difficulty of bending polycarbonate, and the resemblance of the poles to the fence along previous year's fields. Also, I think this is just a representation of the middle middle of the field since there appears to be a reflection of another pole in front of a blue background.

[Justin Montois]

2. More likely, the Lexan serves as a mounting point for some sort of ball-counting sensor. This would allow accurate real-time scoring of large numbers of balls. It could include a color sensor, in which case the balls are multi-colored and worth different values for each color.

I envision a track system mounted above the driver stations on each end of the field (assuming normal field shape) or on the sides where the payload special1sts were in 2009. Balls start at some central point in the field, and must be collected by the robots and placed or shot into some sort of recepticle, whereupon they fall onto the track and roll past the ball counter into a return device. Balls are worth different point values depending on their color, and perhaps begin in different places based on their color, with the high-value ones the most difficult to collect.



Reading this made me think of this...

http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/uimages/chicago/020909-ballreturn.jpg

Multi-colored balls? Different point value?

Snooker anyone?

http://imagenes.sftcdn.net/es/scrn/28000/28262/3_partida2.jpg

I FIRST field does resemble a billiard table...

[Greg Needel]

So I got a little bored while watching National Lampoon's Christmas vacation and drew up my version of this in CAD so we could look at it from other views. maybe this will help out deciphering this clue.


http://jacksonarearobotics.com/gamehinta.jpg



http://jacksonarearobotics.com/gamehintb.jpg



http://jacksonarearobotics.com/gamehintc.jpg

[Eugene Fang]

Good work Gallo26. Try making the sheet piece (Lexan?) not perpendicular to the rods. So that if the bracket were vertical, the rods would be sloped. I think this might yield the reflection seen.

See this post for color references:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=890453&postcount=138

But wouldn't the purple line not be parallel to the edge the purple arrow is pointing to if the lexan was not perpendicular?

Or are they not parallel? The reflected angle is double the actual bent angle, so maybe, since there would only need to be a tiny bit of deflection from vertical?

I'll zoom way in on it in photoshop, and see how "vertical" the purple things actually are.

Update: They're very vertical.

[gallo26]

This is not a game element. It is a model of part of the field. We will have a large divider in the middle of the field with a low opening and holes to pass game pieces to the other side. My reasoning is based on the "all is not as it appears" hint, my personal experience of the difficulty of bending polycarbonate, and the resemblance of the poles to the fence along previous year's fields. Also, I think this is just a representation of the middle middle of the field since there appears to be a reflection of another pole in front of a blue background.

That makes a lot of sense! They just made everything else invisible in the render except for that blue image and that other pole. It connects to something, and because those poles visible are symmetrical, it's most likely the middle. Nice reasoning!

[MrForbes]

So I got a little bored while watching National Lampoon's Christmas vacation

I had that very problem a few nights ago, but I didn't do anything, I just sat there and stayed bored.

[R.C.]

I also believe its just a part of the field and I feel it may just be a place to put the actual game piece on.

-RC

[MrForbes]

More likely just a bracket that another part of the field goes on.

[kgzak]

after viewing 340x4xLife's post I think that they put some type of mechanism to return the balls to one spot, or recycle the balls to field. This would require high goals in order for the mechanism to work (gravity) = Idea 4.

[lbarger]

But wouldn't the purple line not be parallel to the edge the purple arrow is pointing to if the lexan was not perpendicular?


This may mean the bracket (I refuse to call it Lexan based on the image alone) is itself square. If the mounting holes are offset slightly in the vertical direction, the angled reflection of the tubes could be generated while keeping the bracket reflection square. The vertical edge of the bracket and its own reflection could simply be the choice of viewing angles.

[pandamonium]

My prediction is that this is a robot piece, that will be included in every kit, and that JVN oversaw the manufacturing of :D . It will be mounted high on the robot, and hangars (not pictuered) will be affixed to the pipes on either side. As in last year, the goal is the opponent robot. You will have to hook rings over these hangars (much like 07). At the end of the match, the quick release pins permit quick removal of the rings from the robots, and installation of the hangars onto the next teams' robots. There will be two special color rings that if a robot gets hooked with, voids the tally of the rings it is holding.

Oh, and bumpers will be mandatory, and the floor may not be carpet.

That's what I gather from this.

Originally I was convinced it was a track for a ball in particularly a soccer ball or ball of similar size. The difference in tube thickness got me thinking. Perhaps the distance between the nob and the big pipe is the perfect distance for X rings. I think this guy is on to something. If you look close at the pins coming out near the ends they have smaller pins which would lock them into place. Perhaps they are NOT spring loaded but they hold rings from falling off kinda like that annoying black plastic thing in 07. I do not think they are on the robot because it would be red or blue colored. I think the lexan mounts with the lexan on the driver station wall. Human players probably wouldn't throw rings so they might feed them onto the robot some how. Anyone good at ring toss?

[Eugene Fang]

This may mean the bracket (I refuse to call it Lexan based on the image alone) is itself square. If the mounting holes are offset slightly in the vertical direction, the angled reflection of the tubes could be generated while keeping the bracket reflection square. The vertical edge of the bracket and its own reflection could simply be the choice of viewing angles.

OF COURSE!!!

Dang, I can't believe I missed that lol. Does it seem like it's not bolted perpendicularly? Can't tell from the pic...

EDIT: Well the bars and the top of the bent piece of the bracket are parallel, so that means they're perpendicular...

[TEntwistle]

Never mind, I can't upload my image - too big of a file

[gallo26]

So I got a little bored while watching National Lampoon's Christmas vacation and drew up my version of this in CAD so we could look at it from other views. maybe this will help out deciphering this clue.


Greg, I made a CAD model too, and yours looks WAY better and more accurate to the picture than mine did. What dimensions did you use? For everything. The lexan width from inside to inside. The arc diameter. I really like your model

[Wayne TenBrink]

It looks like a support for parallel bars (rails) that balls could roll on. The shallow slope (see below) would require a low rolling coefficient of friction in order to be gravity driven. It would require a ball of a particular size that was quite hard and smooth. Something similar to a moon rock or even the 2006 foam ball wouldn't roll on something this shallow. It would take something like a basketball or (I shudder to think!!) a bowling ball.

Quarter-inch lexan would be tough enough to handle the sort of contact you get in an overhead structure. It doesn't appear strong enough to take the impact of a 120 lb robot at full speed.

BUT - This is too easy. I doubt the GDC would release a clue that identified the size, shape, and "texture" of the game piece. I suspect trickery! It may be a field element, but I doubt that it is for moving the game piece (directly).

How much clearance is there between the "top" of the tube (as shown on FIRST) and the underside of the lexan bracket? If the rails held some sort of cart (like a car on a roller coaster with tubular rails), would there be enough space for some sort of "keeper" (something that would keep the cart from getting knocked off the rails) to pass between the tube and the bracket? Why else would the rails be held from the outside and not at the point nearest the tab on the bracket?

Note regarding the slope: Look at the radius of the bend in the "lexan" bracket. It isn't uniform - it forms a conical shape that is wider at the bottom.

[gallo26]

I've been studying the picture, and I'm not sure if anyone has said this, so i apologize if you have. To make my point more clear, I'll put a picture below.

FIRST has been trying to cut back on costs. So realizing that, Lexan, as previously mentioned, is expensive. FIRST wouldn't cut back on costs, and spend money on tons of lexan for rail supports for 32+ fields. In my opinion, that lexan part is merely a mount for a counter sensor. It'll detect some ball or round object.

In the middle of the poles, there are holes, larger than necessary, for a screw head to go through and not to interfere with any game element rolling down it. On the pole, towards the top, there is a hole identical to that. It doesn't appear to be a reflection or refraction from anything BUT that pole the lexan is mounted to. You can see the pins from that pole too. The only issue is that hole does NOT appear on the front most pole visible to us.

My hypothesis is it's a mounting hole. As i said the lexan is merely a strong support for a sensor (because the software guys on my team HATE it when weak mounts break and they lose a sensor). This rail system will be mounted on the outside of the field. Somewhere. and this is just some junction to count the scored balls. Longer poles, curved poles, whatever, will connect to this. But that single hole makes me believe its mounting somewhere on the outside, or even the inside, of the field. But on the side of something.

http://www.teamkrunch.com/Team_Media/Odd_Hole.jpg

Thoughts or comments on this??

[Eugene Fang]

In the middle of the poles, there are holes, larger than necessary, for a screw head to go through and not to interfere with any game element rolling down it. On the pole, towards the top, there is a hole identical to that. It doesn't appear to be a reflection or refraction from anything BUT that pole the lexan is mounted to. You can see the pins from that pole too. The only issue is that hole does NOT appear on the front most pole visible to us.

My hypothesis is it's a mounting hole.....

Actually I think its the reflection from the front "clearance hole." Because the weird angled "reflection" being the reflection from the front pole still doesn't make sense.

Which is why there seems to be reflection of the ridge where the larger tube ends. If it isn't the reflection, then the larger tube looks too long.

[Karibou]

BUT - This is too easy. I doubt the GDC would release a clue that identified the size, shape, and "texture" of the game piece. I suspect trickery! It may be a field element, but I doubt that it is for moving the game piece (directly).


We don't know the exact dimensions. The piece that we're creating on our own probably does NOT have the same dimensions as the real thing.

[Chris is me]

We don't know the exact dimensions. The piece that we're creating on our own probably does NOT have the same dimensions as the real thing.

We can estimate based on the tubing size from the FRC field and work from there.

[Eugene Fang]

I highlighted the reflections to make it easier to talk about.

Red & Magenta: Reflection off the tubes and off each other (Yes, it works out. see this post http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=890379&postcount=77)

What is the orange outlined shape?

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_-AQ1h_gLd2w/SzQP1bkaj6I/AAAAAAAAMdk/ZLKzB3_jN3s/1st%20Clue%20Outline%202.png

[gorrilla]

one question could be why the GDC waited until today to release the hint?


Just saying, sticking with the moon theme from last year, today in 1968, the Apollo 8 first entered orbit around the moon...

orbit around the moon = balls traveling around a track? I doubt it...

[Chris is me]

one question could be why the GDC waited until today to release the hint?

Perhaps it's proximity to Kickoff. There are 16 days until Kickoff. 16 mean anything?

[jmanela]

Perhaps it's proximity to Kickoff. There are 16 days until Kickoff. 16 mean anything?

driver's license!!, however, that would be more like overdrive:yikes:

[Chris is me]

I showed it to my very much non-engineer parents and they both immediately thought it was a bracket for a 2X4 or something. Maybe it's Robot Limbo!

[TEntwistle]

On the reflections, it makes sense that the red outline is the reflection of the forward post, and explains the extra hole that seems to appear on the rear post. The image you referenced seems to demonstrate that well. The area that you outlined in orange may still be a reflection or refraction of one of the other posts that are present. If you notice in the image that you reference, the shadows are at a different angle from the image in the hint. The light source should be more from the rear and side rather than more above. I do not remember much about the physics of light, but changing the angle of the light source should change the way things are reflected and refracted.

[CGuenther]

I doubt reflections have anything to do with it. I don't think the GDC would go through the trouble of making a rendering showing other parts besides what they were trying to show.

[maltz1881]

It appears to be a slider yoke. It instantly reminded me of that game where there is a waiter and you have to pile dishes on his tray and they more that goes on the higher his hand has to extend in the air. If it gets to high then he tips. :ahh:

[Starke]

one question could be why the GDC waited until today to release the hint?...

This is probably because kickoff is not until January 9th. We have more time to think about the game hint in the month before kickoff. :yikes:

[Beta Version]

I think this piece is designed to suspend the rails, not provide rigid support.

I highly doubt that lexan piece is for support. First, its too expensive, and second, this piece (owing to its short length and connection style) is apparently designed to slip in between two pre-existing railings, a very poor choice if your trying to make something stronger. Since it isnt for structural support, instead, it must be for suspension.

I think these lexan pieces, must be used as a way to suspend rails (curved or straight?) either above a surface, or away from a wall. the rectangular 'tounge' is bolted to the wall, floor, piece, etc. and the rails extend from it suspended.

And.. why isnt this is the rumour mill like it usually is? Its hard to find here

[Karibou]

I doubt reflections have anything to do with it. I don't think the GDC would go through the trouble of making a rendering showing other parts besides what they were trying to show.
That's what I've been thinking about the reflections/refractions. It's like the text in the background of the fish picture from last year - just an unavoidable coincidence that has nothing to do with the real hint.

Although, if you were looking for a context for the part we've been given, looking at the reflections might help, but not very much.

[Tetraman]

I doubt reflections have anything to do with it. I don't think the GDC would go through the trouble of making a rendering showing other parts besides what they were trying to show.

Game hint season makes everyone paranoid. The slightest change in a pixel can mean the difference between everyone freaking out about tetras or track balls.

[joeweber]

If it is a track for a ball most balls of this size are not heavy and if you have rules that do not allow us to make physical contact with it it would not need to be strong. If the robot could only be 60 inches tall and the track is above 60 inches than you would not have to worry about making conttact with the track and breaking it. We will have to build this for our use so I would assume that the pipes are trade size pipes. 1/2 & 3/4 emt or pvc. We could also replace the clear with plywood for our use.

[HashemReza]

I kind of like the idea of a track going around the field...perhaps where you have to place a ball on the track that leads towards a goal? It goes with all the train stuff that we've been thinking recently.

[TD912]

I bet the actual use for this piece will be the exact opposite of what we expect it to be. Only 15 days 'til kickoff...

[darkangel]

That's what I've been thinking about the reflections/refractions. It's like the text in the background of the fish picture from last year - just an unavoidable coincidence that has nothing to do with the real hint.

Although, if you were looking for a context for the part we've been given, looking at the reflections might help, but not very much.

Agreed. I'm pretty sure you can make the reflection anything, especially if you're rendering an object outside of the main assembly file it's being used in (I could be wrong, though).

That being said, I'm on board with the people who are saying it's a field element. Are there any dimensions? Because that makes a huge difference.

Okay, I'm done thinking about this for now. The people who come up with these clues should be ashamed of themselves for releasing the first one on Christmas Eve. *shakes head in disapproval* Well, we'll know in 15 days. Wonder if they'll bother releasing any clues between now and then...

[martinswat1806]

Ypu guys are thinking way to far into this. FIRST is not going to make a field with moving parts it takes to much work to cordinate something like that now this part could be part of an adjustable height shelf or even possibly a field piece for the human players think about it guys, you know better.

[alectronic]

Yeah, last year he said "slippery slope" and that was a definite biggie. Now we know. Does he do that a lot? I've only been around for 2 years, I wouldn't know past 2008.

I was not in FRC at the time, but from reviewing the videos, I believe the background of the kickoff video (the screen behind the people speaking and such) in 2005 was actually one of the tetras. (The element that year)
But no one really noticed it because it was not the focus of the scene. So I am guessing there are little hints written in every year, but we have picked up on them more in 2008 and 09

[artdutra04]

I was not in FRC at the time, but from reviewing the videos, I believe the background of the kickoff video (the screen behind the people speaking and such) in 2005 was actually one of the tetras. (The element that year)
But no one really noticed it because it was not the focus of the scene. So I am guessing there are little hints written in every year, but we have picked up on them more in 2008 and 09Yup, the screen behind the speakers at the 2005 Kickoff had a glass tetrahedron floating in front of clouds.

[mobilegamer999]

my guess is there gonna be connected together like in the attached image and its going to be used as a rail system for balls. I sized it out and depending on the scale it should be about a 4.5 inch - 5 inch ball that fits inside of it easily.

[Ryan_Epperson]

my guess is there gonna be connected together like in the attached image and its going to be used as a rail system for balls. I sized it out and depending on the scale it should be about a 4.5 inch - 5 inch ball that fits inside of it easily.

That looks good; however, I don't think it will involve balls, there are 3 holes that look like they would be used to mount something/things. Maybe hooks? or something to collect an item?

[Nate Smith]

And.. why isnt this is the rumour mill like it usually is? Its hard to find here

As far as where it was in years past, I don't remember, and I'm not awake enough yet to want to go look, but my answer to your question would be that it's technically not a rumor...the hint picture is an officially released document from FIRST. Much like the "what do they mean by rule X?" discussions that will be starting in a few short weeks, what is being discussed is not a rumor, but rather an interpretation of official documentation.

[MikePres]

Finally a game hint! So excited! :D
Can't believe i read all the 14 pages 'till now...
So i'm gonna say something obvious that wasn't mentioned so far (i like the track idea, btw):

It's the letter "H".

[TEntwistle]

That looks good; however, I don't think it will involve balls, there are 3 holes that look like they would be used to mount something/things. Maybe hooks? or something to collect an item?

I think that the holes in the "rails" are access points for attaching the yellow "lexan" piece to the rails. The holes in the lexan are for possibly mounting to a support system (not as likely, if others are correct that this is lexan because it would add expense but not be durable enough for robot interactions) or a sensor (maybe to count balls by color, or something like that, as someone mentioned about a hundred posts ago). Either way, if these are linked together, there would be pipes between two of these elements that are seen. The posts that stick out near the ends from each rail are likely used to attach to another element, and the shown piece does not look like it can attach to another of itself. It has male connectors at each end, and would need to connect to a female connector (if the theory about linking these together is correct).

And don't forget - all the stuff about about reflection/refraction of the images could be the clue, and not the pictured element at all. What if the drivers area wall were contstructed in a manner that skewed the vision of the drivers? That would certainly add a new element to the game - driving by remote camera or other indirect sensor of robot position.

[Greg Needel]

my guess is there gonna be connected together like in the attached image and its going to be used as a rail system for balls. I sized it out and depending on the scale it should be about a 4.5 inch - 5 inch ball that fits inside of it easily.



Thats exactly what I was thinking also as far as attaching them together. I think the plastic part is the mount for a hanging game piece, and the game will be like sonic the hedgehog where you go around trying to collect rings.

[TEntwistle]

Oh, it doesn't really matter how many clues are given in this year's or last year's kick-off speaches. If a new field element is floating on the screen behind Dean while they are doing the pre-release talks, you either won't be listening to the talk, you still won't kow what it means until they release the game details 15 minutes later, and your team will not be any further ahead of the other teams. Other than for pure prognostic enjoyment, and to get everyone thinking about how they might handle situations that they surmise from the clue, the hints have little purpose and should be kept in perspective. That being said, I figured out the entire game last night, but then I woke up and promptly forgot it all. I would do the CAD of our robot now, but I haven't been able to CAD a nebulous design. I don't think that "cloud" is one of the parts in the AI Content Center.

[Karibou]

Thats exactly what I was thinking also as far as attaching them together. I think the plastic part is the mount for a hanging game piece, and the game will be like sonic the hedgehog where you go around trying to collect rings.

If the Lexan is indeed a mount for a hanging game piece, I would hope that the goal wouldn't be to hang things through the holes. That would be a little TOO precise, even for FIRST. Now, if we had to, say, get hoops to land on on the little hump at the top of the Lexan...

Anyone up for some horseshoes? I can see these being placed at different points of the field, and we would have to find a way to get hoops on them, or something of the like.

[joeweber]

Could you assume the size of the assembly by the nylock nuts on the drawing? They look like 1/4x20 and they must be using and allen head screw inside. The ball can not be too big other wise they would not need the curve cut out in the braket piece.
http://www.team1322.org/2010gamepart.JPG

[Stephen of REX]

So stress wise, do you think that the "lexan" could hold the bars in place with say, a bowling ball? Or would its weight split the lexan? Because I am terrified of bowling balls as game pieces.

[rtfgnow]

Depends on the weight. A six pound ball would be fine, but a sixteen pound ball can do some damage.

[Nin_estarSaerah]

So i'm gonna say something obvious that wasn't mentioned so far (i like the track idea, btw):

It's the letter "H".

I thought of that, and it is a possibility, if a bit of a stretch. That would certainly go with the idea of it's not what it seems. Things that start with H? Ham? Holes? Hijacking? Humbug.

If it is a track, the "bracket" probably would attach to something to hold it up, like a pole, which would make it difficult for the robot to manipulate the balls from directly underneath. It seems more likely that it needs to be manipulated from the side, thus, it probably won't be mounted high, but more waist height. That's my two cents.

[IndySam]

So stress wise, do you think that the "lexan" could hold the bars in place with say, a bowling ball? Or would its weight split the lexan? Because I am terrified of bowling balls as game pieces.

After several near disasters from those heavy flying tetras I seriously doubt that the GDC will ever do anything that will involve potentially heavy projectiles again.

[Elgin Clock]

Assuming it's a ball track, here is a picture showing the relative size of things (from what I could gather from the picture), and the possible size of the ball.

Note that the 8.25" width of the lexan is from outside to outside.

Sorry for the messy dimensioning. I did this quickly.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_-AQ1h_gLd2w/SzO9dR71XKI/AAAAAAAAMdg/31BOB1LskZ0/Game%20Hint%20Sketch.PNG

Nice job. If that's the case, we have a possibility for a soft, safe ball to use. If anyone remembers playing polo back in elementary school, you should recognize these:
http://pe.ssww.com/store/product/sku=W4789/cmc=CRSCOM/

Could probably even downgrade to the 6" balls:
http://pe.ssww.com/store/product/sku=W4794/cmc=CRSCOM/

[Clourchn07]

My thoughts are it is a holder of some kind of game piece... squares or triangular game pieces have been rare the past few years.

Also it seems as though it could take some abuse but very limited, I think the track idea is possible. This would give it limited interaction with the robots below.

As far as the floor, it could be anything, I'd say they'll keep us guessing every year to ruin our pre-designed drive trains. But I love the idea of railroad tracks or something like them.

Also the hanging on the pipes idea... I like it but it would be very similar to last years game...so...

[BrendanB]

I've been thinking, everyone has slept in this morning but me, and what if the nubs are pushed in and inside another tube and sitting vertical and say that there are several stacked on top of each other. Then they must be released and lifted up creating a vertical row of shelves that create pockets for objects to be scored in.

My $0.02

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

[IndySam]

Played with the hue/saturation in Photoshop but didn't find much.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/scott4020/1stCluebanana.jpg

[jamie_1930]

Yesterday as I thought I jotted down notes about the game hint and here are the ideas I've gathered.

First I took a look at the key features of the mechanism shown, highlighted in the picture.

1 (RED) - These clips are seen, or at least appear to be similar to be, in numerous product, such as tables and canopies. In those products their purpose is to allow the height, or position, of the object to different predesignated positions.

2 (Blue) - The holes shown in my opinion suggest that the lexan piece will attach to another part of the field, assuming it is a structural part of the field.

3 (Green) - The rounded cut here has been the subject of much debate on this thread because many people view it to be a difficult thing to produce and therefore needs a specific purpose. It is my opinion that in the production of this piece a lexan sheet is laid out and much like a Christmas cookies are made they are cut into their seperate pieces, then the holes are drilled and the sides are folded up to produce the final product. Now looking back to the stamping of the pieces if you were to have that be a straight line you would end up with virtually the same piece, but by adding the curve you are able to stamp out more pieces from a singular sheet because now vertically they space of the piece has been almost compressed allowing for less waste and more product, it is simply a feature used to increase productivity.

4 (Yellow) - This protrusion seems like it must be significant to the part but again it is more for productivity than anything else. With the mind set that this attaches to something else the four hole all need to be there and in order to accommodate that the extra space is need. Although by cutting back in the outer sections it allows more pieces to be made from a single sheet of lexan, because the pieces fit together like a redundant puzzle.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g157/utwbass2011/gamehinthighlighted-1.jpg

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g157/utwbass2011/productivity.jpg

Then my mind wondered on the assortment of different ways this could be used
1 - Adjustable field so that from match to match robots, and drivers, will have to adapt to an ever changing environment.
-Dividers prohibit access to certain parts of the field, or prevent bulky robots from going in specific places
-Height of scoring element changes, ect.

2 - Similar to the adjustable field, but a more limbo like game where failure to pass under results in a loss of points.

3 - Rack for balls, adjustability allows for one larger ball to be randomly placed in different spots.

4 - Finally the thought, that would anger everyone of you and me more than anything, that this is just a non-fundamental piece that requires no worrying. Such as a new camera or battery mount.

[skimoose]

my guess is there gonna be connected together like in the attached image and its going to be used as a rail system for balls. I sized it out and depending on the scale it should be about a 4.5 inch - 5 inch ball that fits inside of it easily.

Oooow Dave, I can't wait to see the turnouts. ;)

What size will they be? #4, 6, or 8, LH, RH, Wye, crossovers, double slips, or three ways, and will they point or stub switches? :p

[jamie_1930]

Played with the hue/saturation in Photoshop but didn't find much.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/scott4020/1stCluebanana.jpg

didn't we see that banana in the 2007 hint?

[keehun]

Played with the hue/saturation in Photoshop but didn't find much.

Nice try with the photoshopping since I don't see a banana when I do my own. :P

[rtfgnow]

I CAN SWEAR I SEE A BANANA in the right half of the Lexan piece.
But there's no refraction!

[keehun]

But there's no refraction!

I changed my mind... Sorry! See my edited post in the same place.

This is the reason:

http://grab.by/1o1y

Maybe I'm the wrong one and not getting the correct hue/saturation settings. If that's the case, let me know!

[TEntwistle]

Yesterday as I thought I jotted down notes about the game hint and here are the ideas I've gathered.

First I took a look at the key features of the mechanism shown, highlighted in the picture.

1 (RED) - These clips are seen, or at least appear to be similar to be, in numerous product, such as tables and canopies. In those products their purpose is to allow the height, or position, of the object to different predesignated positions.

2 (Blue) - The holes shown in my opinion suggest that the lexan piece will attach to another part of the field, assuming it is a structural part of the field.

3 (Green) - The rounded cut here has been the subject of much debate on this thread because many people view it to be a difficult thing to produce and therefore needs a specific purpose. It is my opinion that in the production of this piece a lexan sheet is laid out and much like a Christmas cookies are made they are cut into their seperate pieces, then the holes are drilled and the sides are folded up to produce the final product. Now looking back to the stamping of the pieces if you were to have that be a straight line you would end up with virtually the same piece, but by adding the curve you are able to stamp out more pieces from a singular sheet because now vertically they space of the piece has been almost compressed allowing for less waste and more product, it is simply a feature used to increase productivity.

4 (Yellow) - This protrusion seems like it must be significant to the part but again it is more for productivity than anything else. With the mind set that this attaches to something else the four hole all need to be there and in order to accommodate that the extra space is need. Although by cutting back in the outer sections it allows more pieces to be made from a single sheet of lexan, because the pieces fit together like a redundant puzzle.



I have to disagree with most of your thoughts, although I cannot do so with much certainty. Logic for each follows below:

Red-I don't think that these clips look sturdy enough to support much weight and would have been more robust if they were to select height or position. However, they do look like pins I have seen to lock one pole inside another (with a 90 degree twist of the outer pole), so I think that they are most likely to allow this piece to attach to another yet be removed relatively easily (i.e. for moving the game pieces between events)

Blue - The holes are likely to attach to another game piece. If you put a 2x4 into this bracket, the holes on the side and the holes in the face of the lexan would be perfect for 4 drywall screws to hold the bracket to the wood. You could do something similar to aluminum box, or an electronic sensor. The position of the 4 holes would provide a sturdy connection. I also think that this is the reason for the tab on the lexan - the two hole on the face need to be far enough apart to give it strength to prevent rotation. This is similar to a pattern seen in joist brackets for decking and construction.

Green - If it were purely manufacturing, the tab on top could be duplicated in the shapre of the bottom to minimize cuts. The semi-circle shape seems appropriate for a ball so that it can travel above it on the railing. Even the side-holes are above the level of the semicircle cutout, suggesting to me that this is for clearance

Yellow - See above - I think that this is purely to get the holes far enough apart to make it structurally sound.

In addition, if the yellow piece is lexan, then it is not likely to have enough strength to stand a lot of abuse. If it is lexan, then it is likely either a piece that the robot will not interact with directly (a sensor holder), or it is off the playing field (part of a ramp for the human players to use to deliver game pieces to the field - someone earlier said Skee Ball). If it is a sensor holder on the field, my guess is that there is another piece that attaches to this one that has the real support device that will do the work of holding this track to the rest of the playing field (if it is indeed a track)

Several years ago, there was a game where the purple balls were released once a robot knocked a ball off of a post (if I read the description right) - could this be a track that contains balls that are released once the robot does something? Maybe one ball released per activity? The the lexan could hold the release mechanism/gate or something like that.

[rtfgnow]

How do we know thins is the final design? It might just be a quickly made piece for the render and they ignored some finer details. What could be missing?

[martinswat1806]

If you flip it upsidedown the track idea would work as possibly a way to get balls to the human player if the robot initiates the movement.

[artdutra04]

It's part of the field; it attaches via the spring pins to either the Delta field or the primary welded aluminum ones. The pins are plenty strong enough (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/img/ed7/ed7e7134f4c27cb8672be0f653835e89_l.jpg) to be used on the field.

The curve in the plastic is there for the same reason that the bolts that hold the bronze polycarbonate to the structure are recessed: they have to clear a ball without any snags. I'm guessing soccer balls, since it's been quite a few years since we've had them on the field (2002 was the last year), and unlike the Orbit balls, are easily available everywhere in the world. (Football anyone?) Plus, while past events aren't definite proof of future events, 1998, 2000, 2002, 2004, 2006, 2008 have all been "normal" ball years: 2010 is on track to be another ball year.

And looking around on the Internet, trying to find blue and red soccer balls is surprising hard (they're out of stock!) while all non red/blue colored soccer balls are in stock! Why would red and blue soccer balls be out of stock in the winter, while all other colors be in stock?
http://www.toysrus.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3540673
http://www.toysrus.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3439879

Bronze polycarbonate was chosen for a specific reason other than kicks and giggles, and has to deal with either the transparency or the lighter weight of polycarbonate as opposed to aluminum. While this bracket should be able to withstand several hundred pounds of static force before it fails, I'm guessing that this bracket is somewhere not accessible to the robot, either off the field or in an area protected from full-speed rams by robots. The high tab sticking off the top, coupled with large radii around the 1/4" or 5/16" mounting holes indicate that this piece will bear some kind of significant load (the radii are used to reduce stress concentrations).

The fact that the polycarbonate is mounted onto a larger pipe is significant. While it'll most likely not move during a match, I'm guessing the outer pipe is used either as a cheap, idiot-proof spacer (washers could fall off during assembly, and are easy to loose), or to facilitate assembly of the entire structure that this model is attached to. (Think of those times on your robot when something doesn't quite line up, so you loosen everything and tighten everything down at once ;)).

I'm guessing this structure is the base of a soccer ball auto loader, and polycarbonate was chosen to allow teams (robots?) to more easily see if there is one last ball in the auto loader. The autoloader will hold some set number of balls (six? eight? ten? Baker's dozen? Bueler?). There might even me some release mechanism, such that like the 2004 game, they are released onto the field (or made available) at some point in the match after some condition has been met.

The bronze color of the polycarbonate is also most likely significant, as clear polycarbonate is cheaper than smoked polycarbonate.

Some facts about bronze:

Bronze color:
RGB: 205,127,50
Hex: #CD7F32

Bronze is the most popular medal for cast metal statues.


Bronze Star Medal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Star_Medal). Possible connection to cooperition?
The Bronze Star Medal is a United States Armed Forces individual military decoration that may be awarded for bravery, acts of merit, or meritorious service. When awarded for bravery, it is the fourth-highest combat award of the U.S. Armed Forces and the ninth highest military award (including both combat and non-combat awards) in the order of precedence of U.S. military decorations. Officers from the other federal uniformed services are also eligible to receive the award if they are militarized or detailed to serve with a service branch of the armed forces.


Bronze is also a breed of domestic turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_%28turkey%29).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Male_north_american_turkey_supersaturated.jpg/250px-Male_north_american_turkey_supersaturated.jpg


Bronze is also traditionally given to the third place recipient. Possible third alliance?

Edit: 2228th post :D

[TEntwistle]

Any possibility the game could be played with something like a tennis ball? There haven't been any games with a ball that small since 2000, so it would provide a unique challenge. I remember a quote from the GDC about keeping the game interesting for veteran teams but also something that rookies could handle (the case every year). I know that there are practical reasons to keep the game pieces large but it is not an inherent requirement.

[skimoose]

Some facts about bronze:


Another bronze fact: Manufacturers of steam locomotives used bronze builder's plates to apply the following data to a locomotive; Manufacturer's Name, Manufacturer's Location, year of manufacture, builder's serial number for that specific locomotive.

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/railroad-expansion-068a.jpg

Unfortunately, most bronze builder's plates, as well as the bronze number plates off the smoke box nose or cab sides were removed and melted down during war effort metal drives in World War II.

Just a little fuel for the train and tracks thoughts.

[Karibou]

And looking around on the Internet, trying to find blue and red soccer balls is surprising hard (they're out of stock!) while all non red/blue colored soccer balls are in stock! Why would red and blue soccer balls be out of stock in the winter, while all other colors be in stock?
http://www.toysrus.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3540673
http://www.toysrus.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3439879

But the orbit balls weren't out of stock pre-kickoff last year, were they? I think this soccer ball business might just be a coincidence :P (though I guess you could be spot on)

[ttldomination]

But the orbit balls weren't out of stock pre-kickoff last year, were they? I think this soccer ball business might just be a coincidence :P (though I guess you could be spot on)

Idk. Ordering 3-4 thousand soccer balls might cause a certain product to go out of order.

Just a thought.

[Nin_estarSaerah]

But the orbit balls weren't out of stock pre-kickoff last year, were they? I think this soccer ball business might just be a coincidence :P (though I guess you could be spot on)

I doubt anyone knew to look and see if orbit balls were out of stock before kickoff. Probably still a coincidence.

[strategic sheep]

Ahh, I am being inept with computers today... Hopefully I can get it right this time. After much overanalizing of this clue on my part (I drew it up in Autodesk and converted it to ASCII instead of working on essays...), I think that the only bit of any significance to us is the reflection. It goes along with the whole everything is not as it seems in morse code, and would make nicely for a game where the robots have to do some converting of objects. Tactile or otherwise. Now I'm hoping that neither of my other posts have come into re-existence...

[strategic sheep]

As in the reflection seems to be the proper orientation of the piece even though it is not the actual piece, and the morse code is just a bunch of dots and lines until it is translated.

[TEntwistle]

As for the orbit balls last year, our team went out the day of kickoff (or one day later) and scouted for orbit balls and found very few in existence in the north west part of Philadelphia. Actually, the ones we found had not been sold because the price tags were missing and the manager had planned on returning them to the manufacturer for credit. The other thing that we heard was that the manufacturer was discontinuing them anyway.

In short, there were almost no orbit balls around last year at kickoff, but the explanation may have to do more with the future of the product rather than FIRST snatching them all up. On the otherhand, the lack of blue-red soccer balls is very interesting. If this holds true and we are using blue and red soccer balls in 2 weeks, I would have to rate this as the best bit of sleuthing so far for the 2010 season.

[Nin_estarSaerah]

If our game piece is soccer balls, wouldn't it be more specific than all red and blue soccer balls? Maybe a lot of kids just got soccer balls for Christmas. I still believe it is a coincidence.

[Chris is me]

If our game piece is soccer balls, wouldn't it be more specific than all red and blue soccer balls? Maybe a lot of kids just got soccer balls for Christmas. I still believe it is a coincidence.

Why would it have to be? Soccer balls are built to competitive standards, so there's no need for a specific brand. Red and blue also match alliances nicely. (The 2002 game would probably be a lot more balanced and a lot harder for Beatty to win if they had colored game pieces, much like in FTC's goal grabbing game)

[Gary.C]

If soccer balls are the game piece, blue and red soccer balls would match the alliances nicely, but on the field they will have one brand. I don't think they will have a bunch of different brands on the field, but for practice I guess you could use any brand. The FTC hockey pucks last year I think were Franklin. So if we have soccer balls then I'm guessing they would want to use Franklin. Like these

http://www.toysrus.com/product/index...ductId=3540673 (http://www.toysrus.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3540673)
http://www.toysrus.com/product/index...ductId=3439879 (http://www.toysrus.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3439879)

[blaxbb]

In short, there were almost no orbit balls around last year at kickoff, but the explanation may have to do more with the future of the product rather than FIRST snatching them all up. On the otherhand, the lack of blue-red soccer balls is very interesting. If this holds true and we are using blue and red soccer balls in 2 weeks, I would have to rate this as the best bit of sleuthing so far for the 2010 season.

There were few Orbit Balls after kickoff because Walmart, the only distributor of Orbit Balls, decided to stop stocking them shortly before Kickoff. I highly doubt Walmart gave up on selling soccer balls.

EDIT: It was either Walmart or the manufacturer that stopped sales, not sure which.

[keehun]

I heard the references to a soccer ball earlier in this thread, but I am wondering if the actual game hint has anything to do with Soccer balls?

[Gary.C]

Turn the render upside down and connect multiple of them and you get a track that is wide enough to put a soccer ball on the track.

[Nin_estarSaerah]

I heard the references to a soccer ball earlier in this thread, but I am wondering if the actual game hint has anything to do with Soccer balls?

Actually...no. I think we have gotten off on a tangent. If the size of the arch cut out in the lexan is indicative of the size of the ball, (which is a stretch) then a soccer ball seems to be a logical choice, but the actual hint doesn't reference them at all.

[joeweber]

Here is the game we will play
http://www.acsupplyco.com/knex/bigballfactory.jpg

[Nurnburger]

I am inclined to believe that the lack of soccer balls is a coincidence. After looking at the soccer balls available at Toys R Us (http://www.toysrus.com/family/index.jsp?categoryId=2449892&view=all), all but one kind are out of stock.

[Chris is me]

Here is the game we will play

I'm actually building that right now as I wait for build season... :)

I mean... we just did a ball intake game. Maybe something "soccer like" will be part of the game, but building the same robot again? meh

[Nin_estarSaerah]

I mean... we just did a ball intake game. Maybe something "soccer like" will be part of the game, but building the same robot again? meh

I don't think that building the same robot again will be an option. They usually try to design games that don't lend themselves to that. If there is a track, manipulation is probably going to be a little less direct. It doesn't seem to be that the robots could travel on the tracks, at least, not like a train, because the larger tube part would make that very difficult. So we would need to manipulate by arms or other such protrusions, and arms were practically impossible last year. It also may include some rule that prohibits ball intake, to make it more like soccer, so the robot has to control the ball without actually possessing it

[AcesJames]

Here is the game we will play
*Snip*

http://www.cheezhead.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/jigsaw.jpg

Hello, CD. Today you play a game for your lives!
:p

[jmanela]

Hello, CD. Today you play a game for your lives!
:p

Let's get back on track...

[AcesJames]

Let's get back on track...

I'm sorry, I just had to lighten the mood a little. I think that sometimes we need to remind ourselves that everything the GDC may or may not tell us before kickoff should be taken with a grain of salt, even if it is an "official" hint.

None of our predictions based on this hint can be confirmed for another 2 weeks anyway, right? :)

[Nin_estarSaerah]

Let's get back on track...

I think perhaps "track" is an issue.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=78803

This thread has so much talk of trains and tracks, I think that it could be possible that the GDC gave us a field component that could be misconstrued as a track to go with the earlier mentions of trains.

[mcf747]

Here is the game we will play
http://www.acsupplyco.com/knex/bigballfactory.jpg

I actually remember making this when I was younger.

[Akash Rastogi]

Uhhh I'm not sure where you're all getting these crazy ideas from, but this is what I've been told we're playing...

Even Yao knows what the secret game is now.


http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/33000/Robot-Basketball--33146.jpg

[Eugene Fang]

An interesting point was brought up while talking to one of my teammates:

If the game hint is indeed a track where balls are to be scored, it would be too easy to descore them (like in 2003's Stack Attack), whether on purpose or by accident; a simple bump could kick the ball out because the track isn't "deep" enough for the 6" diameter or so balls we're assuming.

True, the GDC could make a rule making it illegal to descore the balls (like the ringers in 2007), but there would be too many incidences of accidental descoring, making it a pain for the referees.

So I'm revising my guess that it's still a track for holding balls, but as a dispenser/autoloader rather than where the robots will be trying to score.

[Chris is me]

True, the GDC could make a rule making it illegal to descore the balls (like the ringers in 2007), but there would be too many incidences of accidental descoring, making it a pain for the referees.

So I'm revising my guess that it's still a track for holding balls, but as a dispenser/autoloader rather than where the robots will be trying to score.

In 2000, there was a somewhat similar (yet much deeper) rack, this made descoring much harder than scoring but a strategy many considered viable... it'd be interesting if they brought a mechanic like that back.

[sNeff]

Finally a game hint! So excited! :D
Can't believe i read all the 14 pages 'till now...
So i'm gonna say something obvious that wasn't mentioned so far (i like the track idea, btw):

It's the letter "H".

H is for hydro.

Break out the propellers!

((In all seriousness, I really like the ball track idea. As a personal opinion, I really don't want to attach something to the robot. I also want to be back on carpet. That's the extent of my serious thoughts so far; I've had a long day.))

[steelerborn]

Well your assuming that the game is using "balls"
there have been loads of other shapes in the past

For instance the balls would be knocked off a lot.
But if it was an object of any shape with a hook to latch on to the rail,
well then a track would make more sense.
You would have teams fighting over placing certain objects
in one area and others in another. Different areas with different objects
would score different amounts of points. With the most hard to reach area scoring the most points.
This could tie in to recycling.

Just an idea, we have no idea what to expect.
Its going to be a fun year