View Full Version : 2010 Game Hint #2
Warming up the bullpen for #2
Since they named the last hint #1 it stands to reason that there should be at least a game hint #2.
Jimmy Cao
06-01-2010, 07:13
I saw the thread and thought "Oh, there's a #2? I was just on the FIRST website and I didn't see it"
Then I was throughly disappointed by the lack of a game hint in this thread.
Anyways, its reasonable that there might be another hint. Or they could just make us wait.
3 more days til kickoff!
Josh Drake
06-01-2010, 07:17
I don't think they could give another hint without revealing the entire game. The hints are sooooo detailed. One more hint, and kick-off will be like the time you opened your presents before Christmas and re-wrapped them.:p
ttldomination
06-01-2010, 07:41
Kick off is only three days away. I think it would be a waste of effort to release another game hint. I think the next big release will be the release of the encrypted manual.
FIRSTtm134
06-01-2010, 07:58
I was thinking... maybe another hint is the #1? maybe we are on teams by ourselves?
I was thinking... maybe another hint is the #1? maybe we are on teams by ourselves?
Thats actually a good idea. I would have never have thought of that.
I was thinking... maybe another hint is the #1? maybe we are on teams by ourselves?
Not to discount your idea, but game hints are normally numbered. It makes them easier to reference and there is normally more than one. (ie: Last year, game hint #1 was the Moon Fish, and game hint #2 was the poem.) Then again, it is the GCD we're talking about, so who knows? :D My suggestion? Wait three more days and everything will make sense...
Lunacy Game Hint #2 for those who don't remember:
Take your machine out of the shop on Colorado in Paramount;
stop by and get connected on Central in Phoenix;
drive by and make a pickup on Minnetonka in Minnetonka;
then head to the field on Evergreen in Dover.
Well, this was just posted today on Bill's FRC Blog:
Oh and there might be a good reason to monitor the FRC landing page of the usfirst.org website today…
http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2010/01/got-any-plans-for-saturday.html
Well, from Bill's Blog:
http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2010/01/got-any-plans-for-saturday.html
Oh and there might be a good reason to monitor the FRC landing page of the usfirst.org website today…
http://usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/content.aspx?id=16119
ATannahill
06-01-2010, 11:55
looks like more carpeted fields.
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/scott4020/2010Clue2.jpg
Alan Anderson
06-01-2010, 11:55
http://usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/content.aspx?id=16119
Interesting. It looks like a standard FRC field gate, but it is not obviously near the end of the field. Is this a third gate in the middle of the side?
Yay carpet!
Any ideas on what those yellow things are? They look like they're slightly elevated , and held in place by the side of the field.
Kaushal.K
06-01-2010, 12:00
Would someone be able to verify that the "Gate" looks wider than it has been in past seasons? or is that just me seeing things because of the scaling of the image?
scottydoh
06-01-2010, 12:00
http://usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/content.aspx?id=16119
Hmm...Doesn't look like this is going to tell us much of anything usefull. :p
But heres what I took from it;
The gate set-up looks a little different, not sure why
Appears to be carpet on the floor again
And Im guessing the yellow pieces are to protect the tripping hazard created by the wall buttress
ATannahill
06-01-2010, 12:00
I know that the flooring isn't very detailed, but it looks like another year of regolith to me.
Any ideas on what those yellow things are? They look like they're slightly elevated , and held in place by the side of the field.
The yellow things have velcro on the otherside and hold the side of the field down to the the carpet.
Stephen of REX
06-01-2010, 12:01
Human players have to stand on the yellow plates?
What could the yellow plat forms be for. It appears they are slightly elevated and not mounted on the standard round tube. Instead on an angled square tube.
I know that the flooring isn't very detailed, but it looks like another year of regolith to me.
Any ideas on what those yellow things are? They look like they're slightly elevated , and held in place by the side of the field.
the yellow things are there to stop people from tripping over the supports. They have always been there.
Looking at the shadow is the field going to be under low light?
Chris is me
06-01-2010, 12:05
Cool, we're driving on carpet. That's really all I can get from the picture.
I wonder if the field will be as empty as the model seems to indicate it will be. I guess FIRST hasn't put anything "on" the field since 2007.
Can someone with a CAD of a FIRST field guesstimate how long the segment we're viewing is, and what portion of the field is apparently empty space?
EricVanWyk
06-01-2010, 12:07
Human players have to stand on the yellow plates?
That was my first thought. Remember the pressure plates?
Ziaholic
06-01-2010, 12:09
Interesting ... but how did we get from Post #8 to Post #9?
I don't see any link to Clue #2 from the FRC Landing page ... hmmm ...
As for the clue itself ... I'm fixated on the yellow pads ... will there be people standing on them? probably not ... too close to the rails ... perhaps they'll have game-pieces on them ...
JohnBoucher
06-01-2010, 12:11
The gates were larger on the new field they were trying out at River Rage.
grampashades
06-01-2010, 12:13
The gates were larger on the new field they were trying out at River Rage.
New robot dimensions maybe?
Chris is me
06-01-2010, 12:14
The gates were larger on the new field they were trying out at River Rage.
Were they significantly off center?
Also, another hunch. The first hint's filename was 1st Clue.jpg, while the second was 2010 Clue 2.jpg. Perhaps we're playing a big game of Clue; the first thing was the murder weapon, the second is the location, and the third clue will be whodunit!
I got it, I got it.
We will be playing a game on a field with robots.
Rob Colatutto
06-01-2010, 12:16
Interesting. It looks like a standard FRC field gate, but it is not obviously near the end of the field. Is this a third gate in the middle of the side?
It would seem to suggest that.
I would certainly hope the gates needed to be moved towards the center of the field due to a very large game structure having obstructed the previous placements.
Travis Hoffman
06-01-2010, 12:22
It would seem to suggest that.
I would certainly hope the gates needed to be moved towards the center of the field due to a very large game structure having obstructed the previous placements.
This hint has some usefulness to it, so I will chime in.
I agree with Rob. My first thought was that robots will have to enter and exit from the middle of the field because the usual gate locations are now blocked by something such as goals or automatic game piece dispenser-type thingies, preferably surrounded by diabolical ramp- or step-like structures.
Justin Montois
06-01-2010, 12:31
I think the field looks a "little different" because I think it's the Delta Field(Or a more complete variation) that was tested at River Rage. They were confirmed as being wider.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/34329
The main thing about this hint that I gather is that if this is indeed showing a loading gate in the middle of the field, which you can't be certain of, but if it is, then the only reason to put it in the middle would be if there's something in the way of having the loading gates in their normal places. Maybe large scoring structures in the far ends?
Luckily we only have to wait 3 more days...
Edit: two above me have said almost the exact same thing.... therefore we must be right :)
If the gate is in the center of the field, does that mean we go from four gates to two? How is that going to affect traffic flow? Especially when the scoring table and a lot of the electronics run to the middle of the field?
So maybe they are not in the center, but just offset more from the driver stations, maybe at the next side rail segment (I think there are 7 per side)
mprikril
06-01-2010, 12:32
I would not be so quick to assume there is one large gate in the middle. FIRST wants to get more matches for each team during a Regional event. One way is to reduce the amount of time between matches for removing robots and placing new ones.
If there are only two gates at the middle of the long edges of a rectangular field, how can this be quicker than the previous field with four gates? Reducing the number of robots playing in a match also reduces the number of matches per team, so any entrances and exits to the field must allow a similar or faster flow of teams on and off the field.
Nate Smith
06-01-2010, 12:35
The last few posts have basically covered my thoughts on the new hint, but here's my take on them:
Gate appears to be offset more than in years past toward the center of the field. If my memory is correct, this same picture in previous years would have shown the driver station wall.
Nothing on the field similar to the regolith from last year. The "floor" in this picture looks like the standard carpet texture used in the game animations.
My guess on the position change for the gate is due to some sort of structure at the ends of the field.
The center of the field appears to be somewhat open, as there are no "hints" of any structures in the immediate area surrounding the gate.
kwotremb
06-01-2010, 12:35
This hint has some usefulness to it, so I will chime in.
I agree with Rob. My first thought was that robots will have to enter and exit from the middle of the field because the usual gate locations are now blocked by something such as goals or automatic game piece dispenser-type thingies, preferably surrounded by diabolical ramp- or step-like structures.
I hope so, with some sort of structure or variation of the playing field (ramps, platforms, etc.) the games just seem to have a different type of challenge. And with all the years of flat playing fields lately it would be nice for a change.
Rosiebotboss
06-01-2010, 12:36
New robot dimensions maybe?
I highly doubt the max robot dimensions will become larger. Standard door sizes dictate robot dimensions, at least in one direction. (28 inches)
This is a model of the existing fields, not the delta field.
Interesting. It looks like a standard FRC field gate, but it is not obviously near the end of the field. Is this a third gate in the middle of the side?
Maybe the field is no longer a rectangle? Most venues would allow for changes in the shape of the field. If they changed to 2 alliances of 4 robots or 4 alliances of 2 robots, eight sides would allow for 4 drivers stations and four gated sides. Yellow and green alliances along side red and blue alliances?
Thing2_1723
06-01-2010, 12:46
My first thought was the starting spots for the robots. Since there is only two yellow spots, this might confirm some peoples thoughts of a 2v2v2 game. However, there might also be another spot further along the edge of the field.
Wayne TenBrink
06-01-2010, 12:46
The standard field perimeter is modular. Side wall sections can be assembled in a way that puts the gates closer to the center.
Based on the angle of the shadows, I think that the shadow from the 6 foot high end wall would be seen if the gate were in the "traditional" location.
Obviously, they needed extra room at the ends of the field for the wading pools...
Rusty shaklferd
06-01-2010, 12:50
All I am getting out of the two hints are the shadows. idk, but maybe this is a big hint to the game, suggesting that lighting will be a major factor. I'm just guessing off of this, and well it does appear to be carpet flooring to me too but i don't know what to gather from that other then we will actually have traction this year :D
Nick Lawrence
06-01-2010, 12:51
Considering that this is a CAD model, there is the possibility that this is "incomplete," and they just took parts of the field out.
-Nick
My first thought was the starting spots for the robots. Since there is only two yellow spots, this might confirm some peoples thoughts of a 2v2v2 game. However, there might also be another spot further along the edge of the field.
Based on the normal closed position of the gate in previous years, in which the inside portion of the ramp is the one that is folded up, the yellow spots are outside the fence. This would seem to rule them out as robot starting positions.
dtengineering
06-01-2010, 13:05
My guess on the position change for the gate is due to some sort of structure at the ends of the field.
We were thinking the same thing here... but then realized that this doesn't have to be at the centre of the field... it could be on the ends of the field and the driver stations could be on the side of the field where the field control set up has been in past years.
After all, kickoff is going to look different this year.... (wasn't that one of the posts on Bill's blog?)
Or the driver stations could be somewhat further away. With cameras and IP networking, technically the driver station could be on the moon. Well... maybe low earth orbit... the moon would have a bit of time lag. Darn speed of light!
Jason
I never thought a picture of the loading gate could be so significant :) Although it doesn't tell us the main scoring elements, we can take away many things mentioned already:
We are back on good old carpet again (so those offseason drivetrains from two years ago may be good again!).
If there are human players they are unlikely to be scoring or loading anything from the sides of the field, since the gate placement there leaves a relatively small carpeting strip on the sides. So we can assume human players will be behind the driver's station again (or at center field).
A substantial portion near the sides of the field is wide open, meaning any field elements are likely to be near the center or drivers stations.
If the gate is indeed wider (which it appears to be), we may see a dimension change (perhaps teams will be REQUIRED to build robot wider than they are long)? They could have also widened the gates just so the increasingly common wide robots fit easier through them.
The game appears to be on a field, and will likely have robots (pure speculation of course).
Collin Fultz
06-01-2010, 13:08
I like the idea of a ramp structure at each end of the field similar to 2006 with another elevated spot on each side of that that is about 12" higher and worth more points. Something like 10 bonus points for being on top of the "lower" platform (accessable via ramp) and 30 bonus points for being on top of the "higher" platform (accessable via climbing).
EricVanWyk
06-01-2010, 13:08
Or the driver stations could be somewhat further away. With cameras and IP networking, technically the driver station could be on the moon. Well... maybe low earth orbit... the moon would have a bit of time lag. Darn speed of light!
I think they solved the speed of light issues with those weird reflections...
That was my first thought. Remember the pressure plates?
My thoughts exactly. Coupled with a gate, maybe a HP from each team can enter the field, and pressure plates kill the robots...
Peter Matteson
06-01-2010, 13:22
The yellow plates/mats/whatever just make me think of 2003 and 2005 when we had pressure pads for human players that enabled/disabled autonomous or the robots.
BTW I hope the gates and we are allowed to bring lift assists/carts onto the field this year. In my opinion carrying the robots as far as we are and shuttling the carts around has been asking for trouble since we hit ~150 lbs for a robot with bumpers and a battery.
Cyberphil
06-01-2010, 13:24
As for the clue itself ... I'm fixated on the yellow pads ... will there be people standing on them? probably not ... too close to the rails ... perhaps they'll have game-pieces on them ...
These Yellow pads were on most fields this past year, but most of them werent yellow. They were curved metal pieces of sheet metal or plastic with velcro on the bottom. They were there last year too:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/33956
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/33599
As you can see, these were here before, we just never took much notice of them. They aren't curved in the cad picture, but that is what they are representing.
I do like the idea of a 2v2v2 game, that sounds like a lot of fun. I think we should just wait till the kickoff, but speculations are fun.
Remember the trackball-game. The corners of the field were angled. So the entry gates were moved away from the ends. It looks again like the gates are moved in. But this time there is no angle visible in the corner. The field element at the end of the field may be the reason for the move. Unfortunatly we cant see the end of the field in this view.
:mad:
Jacob Paikoff
06-01-2010, 13:33
Who says the driver station is off the bottom of the picture. What if it is off the top side, you wouldn't be able to see the shadow.
Looks like the typical gate design.
I cannot tell if gate is larger than usual.... but I would not complain. A larger gate would make moving robots and people on and off field safer.
It is missing the Plexiglas/Lexan sections that have protected the sides of the field for the last 3 or 4 years though.
Michael Corsetto
06-01-2010, 13:43
The lack of any tape on this portion of the field suggests less boundaries/no robot starting positions in this area. Robot starting positions will likely be directly in front of the drivers stations, either your's or your opponent's ;)
Ryan Dognaux
06-01-2010, 13:44
I'm just happy to see that carpet has made its return for 2010. That's the biggest thing that this hint tells me, traction has returned.
where is this on frc page? did they take it down?
GaryVoshol
06-01-2010, 13:54
Any ideas on what those yellow things are? They cover the field wall supports so people don't trip.
robodude03
06-01-2010, 13:58
where is this on frc page? did they take it down?
Below you will find the direct link to the picture on the FIRST website:
http://usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/content.aspx?id=16119
JimWright949
06-01-2010, 13:58
I think this is a gate in the middle of the field, the yellow is to indicate where the yellow alliance is to enter the field. 3x3x3 game, without wheels is my guess.
-Jim
MikePres
06-01-2010, 13:59
What are the chances that we're playing a RECYCLED game? meaning, a mix of all the 2000-2009 games to celebrate the new decade?
GaryVoshol
06-01-2010, 14:01
I think this is a gate in the middle of the field, the yellow is to indicate where the yellow alliance is to enter the field. 3x3x3 game, without wheels is my guess.
-Jim
But how do you navigate there from the homepage, or from the FRC page as Bill's blog noted?
The Yellow squares in the drawing are to prevent/identify tripping hazards around the fields. All fields had them... maybe not all were yellow... but they were there.
<See Here> (http://www.asmenews.org/0409_1stories/photos/lunacy1.jpg)
dustinjeremy2k
06-01-2010, 14:05
Looks like the typical gate design.
I agree. I can't make out any significant change.
I cannot tell if gate is larger than usual.... but I would not complain. A larger gate would make moving robots and people on and off field safer.
Again, I'm with you there. One thing I'd like to point out is there has ALWAYS been two complete sections between the corner of the playing field and the gate. Check your old photos. We cannot see two complete sections on either side, so... we can't really tell where this is on the field! I don't know why everyone is assuming the gate could only fit in the center?
It is missing the Plexiglas/Lexan sections that have protected the sides of the field for the last 3 or 4 years though.
This was my second observation, but again, I think it's a mistake (like the yellow trip hazard plates that should be bent instead of flat). I can't imagine that FIRST would run the risk of having a robot catch one of the uprights and damage the field.... Small beans.
The hint is simply CARPET... yahoo! I guess I didn't waste my summer on another pointless drive concept!
See the second photo on post #49 by Cyberphill. The "yellow" plate was only on one side of the gate, now there is a "yellow" plate on both sides in the clue. The photograph shows four "yellow" plates between the gates. The gates have simply been moved one section in towards the middle and they now have the "yellow" plates on both sides.
How'd you find the URL to the hint already? I don't see it on the FRC page above Hint 1... Or was it just some lucky content id number guessing?
EDIT: Looks like it's up on the site now...
If the gate is in the center of the field, does that mean we go from four gates to two? How is that going to affect traffic flow? Especially when the scoring table and a lot of the electronics run to the middle of the field?
So maybe they are not in the center, but just offset more from the driver stations, maybe at the next side rail segment (I think there are 7 per side)
Maybe the field is a different shape? Triangle? Hexagon? With starting positions or maybe some kind of goal in each corner? You never know...
And maybe it's just the perspective, but the carpet/regolith/floor(maybe rubberized or *high* friction floors, or maybe even a padded floor??) ends right behind the view of the pipe guardrail. Just a random observation.
Still can't find hint directly from home site. Maybe all is not what it appears.
Ziaholic
06-01-2010, 14:52
Still can't find hint directly from home site. Maybe all is not what it appears.
Same here. I noted my concerns back on page 2 of this thread. Somehow, between posts #8 and #9, somebody spontaneously found Clue-2. Puzzling.
Eugene Fang
06-01-2010, 14:54
Maybe the field is a different shape? Triangle? Hexagon? With starting positions or maybe some kind of goal in each corner? You never know...
And maybe it's just the perspective, but the carpet/regolith/floor(maybe rubberized or *high* friction floors, anyone?) ends right behind the view of the pipe guardrail. Just a random observation.
Note to everyone: the picture is rendered as if one was standing on the field and looking out. The yellow is on the outside of the field.
Ziaholic
06-01-2010, 15:04
Link to real Hint #2
http://usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/content.aspx?id=16119
This link was already posted on page 1 of this thread ... not sure what you're trying to accomplish here, or with the new "real" thread that you created.
:confused: :confused: :confused:
(but at least now I can see a link to Hint #2 on the main FRC page ... so that question is resolved ...)
So...the floor looks like carpet. Dave's game hint is "What is may not be what it [seems]". So it's not really carpet. It is flat though. Or is it?
Or perhaps the hint refers to how hard it can be for a robot to open the gate. Field reset volunteers know what I'm talking about. It's a simple latch ... except ... Or perhaps it refers to the hump underneath the gate, meaning the field isn't flat.
See, it's so ambiguous I simply must be correct.
Note to everyone: the picture is rendered as if one was standing on the field and looking out. The yellow is on the outside of the field.
Yeah I realized that. But the floor texture inside the field doesn't look like carpet from previous years, which is why I made the comment about rubberized/high traction flooring. Maybe it's the 'opposite' of regolith? Or maybe they just used a different program or texture to render it?
Ted Weisse
06-01-2010, 15:14
[quote=Ziaholic;893537]This link was already posted on page 1 of this thread ... not sure what you're trying to accomplish here, or with the new "real" thread that you created.
:confused: :confused: :confused:
Sorry bad post.
Mod has closed it and best to delete it if they would please.
Sorry.
:o :o
See the second photo on post #49 by Cyberphill. The "yellow" plate was only on one side of the gate, now there is a "yellow" plate on both sides in the clue. The photograph shows four "yellow" plates between the gates. The gates have simply been moved one section in towards the middle and they now have the "yellow" plates on both sides.
To make this clearer, look at this picture:
http://usfirst.org/uploadedFiles/FE-00032.pdf
Assuming the basic shape and construction of the field is the same, including the yellow plates (a big assumption!), there could very easily be four gates, each between a pair of the yellow plates. Aside from that, the gates appear to look the same way they always have. Of course, they might just be pulling a fast one on us...
lingomaniac88
06-01-2010, 15:25
The first thing I thought of when I saw this was garbage cans with the "step to open" mechanism:
http://common3.csnimages.com/lf/1/hash/1474/248126/1/Round+Step+Plastic+Lid+Trash+Can.jpg
Perhaps it's something that human players can step on to control a certain aspect of the field, such as a chute to release game pieces or the position of a scoring location.
The gate is standard issue from past years - it serves as an ingress/egress point for the robots and field crew. The "horizontal" part of the gate is external to the field; the "vertical" part flexes down to provide a ramp. However, I'm puzzled by the bar above the diamond plate. I know there is a hinge on the right side to allow it to flex vertical to let the robot(s) through, but I can't tell what that pin on the left side is. Was there a spring mechanism to lock it in place that I'm forgetting? As I recall, it was just a round pipe that the removable polycarb section would slide on.
I'm having trouble visualizing a wide gate in the middle of the field. Traditionally, that is where the scoring table would be. If robots enter/exit through the middle of the field, they would be going over a LOT of wires connected to the field. This leads me to two conclusions: either the field is completely wireless and the scoring table is somewhere completely different, or there is one main entry/exit point on one side of the field. Perhaps there is a large field component directly across from this gate that would take up too much space to allow gates on the other side. This gives me trouble, too - FIRST fields have been traditionally symmetrical both horizontally and vertically. Because there are so many different configurations of arenas that host FIRST events and offseasons, this has been a necessity.
Robert Cawthon
06-01-2010, 15:39
I know that the flooring isn't very detailed, but it looks like another year of regolith to me.
Any ideas on what those yellow things are? They look like they're slightly elevated , and held in place by the side of the field.
Not Regolith. Those yellow things are normally heavy plastic or aluminum with velcro on the bottom to grab the railing and hold it in place and to keep people from tripping over the support. If that is what they are again this year, it looks to me like we are back on carpet! YEAH! I didn't like the regolith. :)
Also, the wider? gates could indicate a slightly longer field if the other parts are used from previous years.
Perhaps the GDC tried to create a field where the 2009 KOP wheels could be used for high traction :confused:?
It is missing the Plexiglas/Lexan sections that have protected the sides of the field for the last 3 or 4 years though.
Maybe they just removed that to make the objects in this image more visible? I don't know why they would decide to be THAT nice, though.
This is only my 3rd year in FRC. I've always known the field with the plastic siding. Was that nonexistent in previous years?
Bob Steele
06-01-2010, 15:45
To make this clearer, look at this picture:
http://usfirst.org/uploadedFiles/FE-00032.pdf
Assuming the basic shape and construction of the field is the same, including the yellow plates (a big assumption!), there could very easily be four gates, each between a pair of the yellow plates. Aside from that, the gates appear to look the same way they always have. Of course, they might just be pulling a fast one on us...
My only reaction to the yellow plates is that they are there for a purpose. ( And have been for a number of years...)
they cover up a brace (which lies underneath) to hold up the side of the field.
Two would be necessary for two braces.... on last year's field... a brace on the side closest to the end was NOT necessary because of the way the field was constructed in the corners.
If anything if we make the assumption that the gates are in the same place as other years in relation to the ends, this would indicate that the corners of the field are not like last year and need a brace on the outside to support the side of the field.
Another assumption could be made that the gates have been moved closer to the middle... and that more bracing is needed because of that...
Remember its a render... and not complete...hence the absence of detail.
I say it means "not regolith" and that's about all we can say..
I can't wait until HINT #3 which will come on Saturday...around 7:00 AM my time....
It will be a really big hint....
Perhaps the GDC tried to create a field where the 2009 KOP wheels could be used for high traction :confused:?
Unless they are giving us different wheels this year... Or the GDC threw us a curveball and the field will be grey colored regolith... >_>
AcesJames
06-01-2010, 15:49
I have a feeling that the shadow of the railing is really important in this hint, for some odd reason. I don't know why, it's just my initial impression. Plus, Dave did say not to see things as they appear. A shadow of the field might somehow tell a different story than the field pieces themselves.
Just food for thought.
JKWarrior
06-01-2010, 15:53
Here is the hint http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/content.aspx?id=16119
The yellow things move up, vision target...
Just wondering, but should this be in the Rumor Mill board?
Peter Matteson
06-01-2010, 15:55
This is only my 3rd year in FRC. I've always known the field with the plastic siding. Was that nonexistent in previous years?
The plastic siding has more or less been game object dependent.
2003 - boxes, no siding
2004 - 13" diamter balls, siding
2005 - Tertras, no siding
2006 - Poof balls, siding
etc.
I wouldn't read into this too much though because we don't know the detail level of the render. Siding may have been left off for clarity so we would see something else.
jamie_1930
06-01-2010, 15:57
For anyone still trying to find the picture themselves it's right herehttp://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/content.aspx?id=16119
when you go to usfirt.org you need to click the frc tab at the top and then the link will be at the updates section underneath the picture
My thought right now is that were back to the regular old carpet, but in my opinion everyone will be so excited that they can have robots with high traction they'll lack maneuverability in their design. I think that last years wheels may even come in handy if used right.
Also, and I really hope this is it, I think that since many people have been saying the gate looks like it's been shifted down towards the middle of the field (a little not to the middle). That this suggest there is a type of field element in the way. This supports what several students and mentors have been saying on my team, that we will be seeing some ramps this year.
JKWarrior
06-01-2010, 16:00
the yellow could be stations for human players, such as a few years ago when we had to stack tertas and the tetras were hand put in the field by stations similar to these
jamie_1930
06-01-2010, 16:00
Just wondering, but should this be in the Rumor Mill board?
It seems like it should be to many people and that's why we have to keep answering this question. No, the Game Hints are released officially by FIRST so it's not a rumor, it's a clue.
The plastic siding has more or less been game object dependent.
2003 - boxes, no siding
2004 - 13" diamter balls, siding
2005 - Tertras, no siding
2006 - Poof balls, siding
etc.
I wouldn't read into this too much though because we don't know the detail level of the render. Siding may have been left off for clarity so we would see something else.
I had guessed that it would likely be there if we were dealing with smaller objects/balls.
Hey, this may be a game trend that actually makes sense!
JKWarrior
06-01-2010, 16:05
My thoughts exactly. Coupled with a gate, maybe a HP from each team can enter the field, and pressure plates kill the robots...
right BATTLE BOTS! but seriously pressure plates could work but i see no wires, but this is a low quality CAD program
If you zoom in the yellow things are conected to a special square tubing while they other sides are cirular, they are defently part of the game or somthing.
jamie_1930
06-01-2010, 16:11
right BATTLE BOTS! but seriously pressure plates could work but i see no wires, but this is a low quality CAD program
the yellow things are there to stop people from tripping over the supports. They have always been there.
That's all that need be said.
Robert Cawthon
06-01-2010, 16:13
If you zoom in the yellow things are conected to a special square tubing while they other sides are cirular, they are defently part of the game or somthing.
Nope. The round tubes go from top to bottom of the rail. The square one goes to a plate on the floor at an angle from the top rail (to form a triangle for support) to keep the rail from falling outwards when hit by a bot. Nice try, though. Thinking outside the box.
ehochstein
06-01-2010, 16:18
I think the GDC is sending us a message -- "HI" -- if you tilt them both the same amount it spells out that message ^^
JKWarrior
06-01-2010, 16:19
To make this clearer, look at this picture:
http://usfirst.org/uploadedFiles/FE-00032.pdf
Assuming the basic shape and construction of the field is the same, including the yellow plates (a big assumption!), there could very easily be four gates, each between a pair of the yellow plates. Aside from that, the gates appear to look the same way they always have. Of course, they might just be pulling a fast one on us...
maybe the gate has been moved to the center of the field (replaceing the human player positions in your link
rulesall2
06-01-2010, 16:26
If you zoom in the yellow things are conected to a special square tubing while they other sides are cirular, they are defently part of the game or somthing.
no, if you look at the link above ^^ from last year, it was connected the same way. although as this becomes picked apart, more details will come out like this one.
As stated by Bob Steele said earlier, it could just be a change in the design of the corners that requires the change in the number of plates. Also, due to the zoom, it is impossible to locate the access point. I am speculating a third gate though...
A side note, use spell check.
EDIT: Last year had the ball corral areas for empty cells, that could have been the reason two yellow plates were not needed, as the bar crossing the corner created enough support.
XXShadowXX
06-01-2010, 16:27
Am I the only person happy to be back on carpet... That's all I needed to see.
artdutra04
06-01-2010, 16:39
The yellow plates are on the outside of the field, and are there to keep people from tripping. They are polyethylene (plastic) panels. I'm guessing the reason they are flat in the second game hint is because they were too lazy to actually model the curve. They have hook Velcro on the bottom, and are stuck to the carpet just by putting pressure down on them, as they bend quite easily.
2009: (yellow)
http://www.team228.org/gallery/113/slideshow/img_5ce77-5ce77.jpg (http://www.team228.org/media/pictures/view/5604)
2008: (green with caution tape)
http://www.team228.org/gallery/85/slideshow/img_97423-cfcd2.jpg (http://www.team228.org/media/pictures/view/4103)
2007: (yellow)
http://www.team228.org/gallery/76/slideshow/img_b76f9-2f8c8.jpg (http://www.team228.org/media/pictures/view/3642)
2006: (yellow)
http://www.team228.org/gallery/52/slideshow/championship-event_13ac4-99cb0.jpg (http://www.team228.org/media/pictures/view/3306)
Maybe they just removed that to make the objects in this image more visible? I don't know why they would decide to be THAT nice, though.
This is only my 3rd year in FRC. I've always known the field with the plastic siding. Was that nonexistent in previous years?2005 was the first year of using polycarbonate side panels along the entire field. Before that, the sides of the field were just the aluminum tubing with a single wire strung in between (http://www.team228.org/media/pictures/view/617); the only places that had polycarbonate panels were at the gates. I know this first hand, because our 2004 robot got stuck on these wires a lot. :o
Edit: I just noticed, that in the photo from 2004 linked to above, instead of the polyethylene plastic panels, there's diamond plate protecting the field supports. So the move to the yellow plastic was probably just to save costs.
The Yellow squares in the drawing are to prevent/identify tripping hazards around the fields. All fields had them... maybe not all were yellow... but they were there.
<See Here> (http://www.asmenews.org/0409_1stories/photos/lunacy1.jpg)
OKAY... So the yellow things where there! :) thats not new. The gates are bigger as some have posted... SEE HERE (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/34329)
And the gate is in the middle of the field see post above^^^ top picture...
The only thing left is to verify that it is indeed carpet in the picture. And if it is i am guessing that they are just giving us a hint that it is back to carpet.
So is it carpet or not?!?!
Peter Matteson
06-01-2010, 16:40
Am I the only person happy to be back on carpet... That's all I needed to see.
In 8 years of mentoring one thing I have learned is this:
Students can learn to drive on whatever they give us.
Ramps, carpet, grating, HDPE, lexan, diamond plate, regolith, other robots the driver station wall, referees, stairs, Dean, the bar, goals, the scorer's table, you name it, I've watched robots somehow manage to drive on it at events over the last few years.
As far as I'm concerned the surface we play on is is of minor consequence and easily overcome compared to what the game object is.
ChuckDickerson
06-01-2010, 16:48
It doesn't matter if it is carpet or not. Last year there was still carpet under the Regolith. Just because it isn't in the picture doesn't mean it isn't there. They can always put Regolith or something else on top of the carpet. For all that picture shows it could just be concrete with the carpet or whatever playing surface left out.
It doesn't matter if it is carpet or not. Last year there was still carpet under the Regolith. Just because it isn't in the picture doesn't mean it isn't there. They can always put Regolith or something else on top of the carpet. For all that picture shows it could just be concrete with the carpet or whatever playing surface left out.
Looking at the game hint ... they probably rotated the image at an angle to show as much carpet(flooring) as possible without showing the game elements or anything else on the field.
Really measuring to the amount of carpet left outside the field im gonna have to say this is at least half the field in the clue... So unless the corners of the field are a different material. Im gonna have to say the whole field is carpet(or whatever flooring is in the picture).
Something new i noticed is that the ramp unlike past years extends into the field when up... Not sure if this was just a mistake on the computer or not? it should be back a little so the bend is outside the field.
We agreed that this year there won't be any robots this year. It will be all on the human player! We'll spend the next six weeks learning how to do the Robot dance. :ahh:
I would LOVE carpet back!
I mean, doing doughnuts all day was fun and all, but i like POWER! TORQUE! ACCELERATION!
Carpet would be nice this year :)
I have been the designated driver on the team the past 3 years, and I liked driving for Rack and Roll the best.
heres my list:
#1: Rack-n-Roll
#2: Lunacy
#3: Overdrive (our robot was slow and cumbersome/hard to drive, and there were too many line rules for driving lol)
That's all that need be said.
This perfectly exemplifies the two opposite types of people
*serious people
*not serious people
haha, this made me laugh
I'm with Art on the side paneling. I distinctly remember a robot in AZ 2003 running on practice day, and something went haywire in automode. The robot went up the ramp, over the top, took a left on the other side, and right between the top and bottom rails of the field. It ended up under the bleachers before someone got to the E-Stop. Fortunately, nobody was hit.
Every year since then, there has been a shield of some form (wire or plastic) to prevent that. It isn't always shown on the drawings, though.
The amount of carpet outside the field is irrelevant, and even so, there isn't half the field shown. Usually there's no more than about a yard outside on either side, left from putting two rolls side-by-side and centering the field on them. That's no more than about a 3-4-yard section there total, at an unknown area of the field. It may in fact be the corners, or it may be the middle. Just as a note, those support pillars can (technically) go into just about any joint on the field border that isn't on the ends. And I think your angle is skewed; the ramp doesn't go into the field. Rather, there is a cutout in the lower part of the field border which can give that perception.
The key element is this: there is a gate in the side of the field. Next to that gate is clear of obstructions at the time shown in this CAD. Somewhere else on the field is the item in Hint #1. That is all we know at this time;usually, the rest of the hints come out on Saturday during Kickoff right before the curtain comes down.
OK. Lets look at what is not there!
The track from hint #1 is not in hint #2.
so where is it? Well if the field is symmetrical then we can multiply the hint#2 view by 4. we are now seeing almost 1/3 of the total field surface. The area we cannot see is the middle and the two ends.
The track from hint #1 seemed to want to be attached to other pipe. Thus the long pair of pipe must be somewhere we cannot see. I suggest it be against the ends of the field. Because the lexan frame that holds the pipe would need to be mounted to some support.
:)
ATannahill
06-01-2010, 17:31
OK. Lets look at what is not there!
The track from hint #1 is not in hint #2.
so where is it? Well if the field is symmetrical then we can multiply the hint#2 view by 4. we are now seeing almost 1/3 of the total field surface. The area we cannot see is the middle and the two ends.
The track from hint #1 seemed to want to be attached to other pipe. Thus the long pair of pipe must be somewhere we cannot see. I suggest it be against the ends of the field. Because the lexan frame that holds the pipe would need to be mounted to some support.
:)
Your forgetting a third dimension.
delsaner
06-01-2010, 17:38
The yellow plates are on the outside of the field, and are there to keep people from tripping. They are polyethylene (plastic) panels. I'm guessing the reason they are flat in the second game hint is because they were too lazy to actually model the curve. They have hook Velcro on the bottom, and are stuck to the carpet just by putting pressure down on them, as they bend quite easily.
Would this mean that the game hint isn't about the yellow pads? If they have been around in previous years and they are back this year, then that doesn't really seem like anything new.
Katie_UPS
06-01-2010, 17:57
I believe the robots will have to ride unicycles. The wider gates are for the EMTs to pick up any robots that get hurt.
BrendanB
06-01-2010, 18:01
Arrive in Florida, get a free suite, and there is another game hint, NICE!;)
From the looks of a more open field, I'm thinking that the scoring is either A: on the left and right and left side of the field much like 2006 or B: in the middle of the field like in 2007.
Oh and I see much more carpet than in previous years!
carolynn4848
06-01-2010, 18:12
Unless they are giving us different wheels this year... Or the GDC threw us a curveball and the field will be grey colored regolith... >_>
I personally think that would be awesome. I loved driving on the regolith.
Yin-Yang
06-01-2010, 18:16
the Grayish mass on the top could be interpreted as a WALL if u focus your eyes differnet
the Grayish mass on the top could be interpreted as a WALL if u focus your eyes differnet
Interesting idea, but it appears to be just the same background FIRST used for the first hint. In any case, if that was a wall, it seems highly unlikely that the gate would still be structured in the same way...
LavastormSW
06-01-2010, 18:27
The yellow platforms look like they may be on hinges, allowing the gray handle to rest on the field, causing the yellow platforms to be vertical. Perhaps we have to design robots to shoot the platforms down.
The yellow platforms look like they may be on hinges, allowing the gray handle to rest on the field, causing the yellow platforms to be vertical. Perhaps we have to design robots to shoot the platforms down.
As noted previously, those yellow "platforms" happen to be trip guards on field support units, and the gray "handle" happens to be the field border. Ask any other member of your team, or see the pictures earlier in this thread.
LavastormSW
06-01-2010, 18:34
This was my second observation, but again, I think it's a mistake (like the yellow trip hazard plates that should be bent instead of flat).
On the contrary, I think that making those yellow plates straight and not curved was deliberate. It doesn't seem like they would make a simple mistake like that.
They cover the field wall supports so people don't trip.
The Yellow squares in the drawing are to prevent/identify tripping hazards around the fields. All fields had them... maybe not all were yellow... but they were there.
Then why wouldn't they be curved down to touch the floor in the picture? These look like they're there to serve some other purpose.
LavastormSW
06-01-2010, 18:36
As noted previously, those yellow "platforms" happen to be trip guards on field support units, and the gray "handle" happens to be the field border. Ask any other member of your team, or see the pictures earlier in this thread.
I don't think they're trip guards. If they were, they would be curved down to touch the floor. It doesn't seem like they would make a simple mistake like forgetting to curve them.
I don't think they're trip guards. If they were, they would be curved down to touch the floor. It doesn't seem like they would make a simple mistake like forgetting to curve them.
Because they are not manufactured curved. The curve comes from the velcro that holds then to the floor.
On the contrary, I think that making those yellow plates straight and not curved was deliberate. It doesn't seem like they would make a simple mistake like that.
Then why wouldn't they be curved down to touch the floor in the picture? These look like they're there to serve some other purpose.
As a matter of fact, they may indeed be cut straight initially, and the CAD for them would show that. However, in fact, they are bent, thanks to some velcro at the ends and about three days a week of being stuck like that with everyone stepping on or near them. Trust me; I've helped set up the field for at least one event per year since 2007.
And, regarding why it wasn't done in the CAD: It can be kind of hard to get a curved surface like that. It may be that whoever did the CAD didn't know how, or ran out of time to do it.
What I find striking about this render is how the outside, gray space lines up with the border of the field. Also, the shadow pattern is interesting...
As we've been told that "not everything is as it seems", or something to that effect, I'm chancing a guess that there might be some sort of scoring implement that requires the robot to line up several objects of various depths in order to actually score.
For example, instead of simply shooting a ball, the robot would have to shoot the ball at such an angle that it clears two goals. This would create a graduated scoring system that would encourage veteran teams while still providing an easier tasks for rookies.
Nin_estarSaerah
06-01-2010, 18:40
Are there any definitive differences from the gate of years past? It does look wider, but I'm not sure. Can anyone CAD the corresponding view using last year's dimensions to compare? I would, but I don't have Autodesk on this computer.
It looks to me as if both hints are in isometric projection. Why aren't there axes, is it simply a different CAD program that what I usually use?
This certainly looks like carpet to me, and I agree, a sizable portion of the field is shown to be bare. I think this might mean that, like last year, more of the robots' interactions will be with other robots and movable goals rather than stationary ones.
I was going to start on FAFSA today...once again, robotics takes my attention away from such unimportant things. :yikes:
alectronic
06-01-2010, 18:43
I don't think they're trip guards. If they were, they would be curved down to touch the floor. It doesn't seem like they would make a simple mistake like forgetting to curve them.
Everyone keeps quoting the "everything is not as it seems" post. Therefore it logically makes sense that the trip guards may be more than just trip guards this time.
Although, if there were for human players, they would likely have a shield near them, so either that was removed, or they really are trip guards and they just didnt take the time to bend them.
i doubt they would have robots reach over the walls to do something like hit a switch, right?
LavastormSW
06-01-2010, 18:46
Although, if there were for human players, they would likely have a shield near them, so either that was removed, or they really are trip guards and they just didn't take the time to bend them.
I agree. If a human player had to stand on/near one of the panels, there's a chance that a robot could potentially hurt them. I see no plexiglass/fence/whatever to prevent that.
carolynn4848
06-01-2010, 18:51
Maybe "everything is not as it seems" was said because they knew everyone would start looking too closely. Maybe this hint is exactly what it seems to be and we're just looking too closely. Remember the first hint from last year? Everyone took the picture of the moonfish and started flipping it around and contorting it in every way possible, trying to read the words in the background, and it turned out to have nothing to to with the words. Maybe this hint is the same way.
or
They did mean to look closer when they said "everything is not as it seems".........
RoboMaster
06-01-2010, 18:52
I honestly don't get much out of this hint. But here's what I think (i know some of this has already been said)
-Obviously it is of the field. Nice little entrance gate there. People have said it's wider, but that doesn't give much information.
-The yellow things seemed to be the center of attention, but then it was said that these are really trip-protection mats, so that's not much.
-We've got carpet, or at least what looks like carpet, it's a little gray. But like the regolith, if there was some new field surface they would probably put it on top of the carpet inside the field.
Here's what I think is interesting:
-The yellow mats are covering up two angled brackets on each side of the gate. These seem to be for support so that the wall doesn't fall over if a robot rams into it. Normally there is just one next to the gate because on the other one side there is the driver station wall and on the other side is the middle where there are more brackets. So are they there to give more support to the possibly weak gate just be cause FIRST wants to be more safe? People have said that this gate seems to be in the middle, so that would give reason to put brackets on each side. But that would mean there are less gates on the field, which I don't think will happen. FIRST wants the matches to reset quickly. So this might mean a different field shape. Someone else has said that the field sections are very modular, so that would probably work. I think that's the best possibility; or at least that the field is re-arranged.
-You can't see the driver station wall from here. Now, that might be because they just blocked it out of the picture, or the field is re-arranged and it can't be seen. I think it is possible not to see the driver station wall even if either of these weren't the case. If it was connected to the upper right field wall instead of the lower left, then it would work. But again, why is the bracket needed?
-Game hint 1 is nowhere to be seen. No other field structures are to be seen. Again, not much there because they might have blocked it out or this is just a section with nothing important like that.
-That bolt attached to the left side of the gate, sticking outwards. Can someone tell me what this is? I'm sure it's just a usual piece of the field, but it's been staring me in the face and I think it might be significant.
Other than that, and to sum up, this is still a ton of speculation with multiple weak possibilities. But that's what a game hint is, so what can you expect. Happy guessing! :D
Danny Blau
06-01-2010, 18:53
The yellow platforms: yes in past years there have been trip guards over the field supports but to me the question is why make those the focus of the picture? they're the first thing you see, why are they important?
I first thought they could be either game piece loading stations, or a goal. This could be where we pick up/deliver the boxes of cracker jacks and cans of Diet Coke.
And remember the GDC puts roughly a gagillion hours into this everything they do, say and post about the game is very planed and calculated, if the panels were supposed to be curved they would have shown them that way or not shown at all
Danny
~see you at kickoff
ATannahill
06-01-2010, 18:56
-That bolt attached to the left side of the gate, sticking outwards. Can someone tell me what this is? I'm sure it's just a usual piece of the field, but it's been staring me in the face and I think it might be significant.
I think it is the latch for the sliding lock pin. I don't think that has changed because you can see the pivot point.
Andy Grady
06-01-2010, 18:58
-That bolt attached to the left side of the gate, sticking outwards. Can someone tell me what this is? I'm sure it's just a usual piece of the field, but it's been staring me in the face and I think it might be significant.
That's the sliding gate lock...was not present at River Rage for the Delta field tryout, but maybe they put them back in.
Tetraman
06-01-2010, 18:59
Can a mod set the first post to have the Game Hint #2 Picture?
Anyway, I think the most important part of this map is the fact there are no lines, changes in the carpet or things beyond the field, at least in the clip we see..
Ya im done guessing im in my serious kickoff prep mode, im shure you all know what i mean.
LavastormSW
06-01-2010, 19:10
And remember the GDC puts roughly a gagillion hours into this everything they do, say and post about the game is very planed and calculated, if the panels were supposed to be curved they would have shown them that way or not shown at all.
That's exactly what I was saying. Thanks for reinforcing my point. :D
bladetech932
06-01-2010, 19:14
Ok here is what i think
1. the yellow coverings are strait just because of rushed cad
2. the gate in this photo isnot in the old spot neither is it in the middle, my team set up the field in okc and i know the gate was between two side pieces the middle is one piece that said the only other way it could be oriented going off the yellow pieces is half way between the middle and the old position
3. there are 4 gates because first probably would not reduce it to one or two for time between matches
4.moving the gates is for a purpose so i am assuming the interacting part of the fields will be by the alliance station
5.no human player in the middle means its a great place for the robots to start probably similar to the orientation in 2006
6. from the prior years experience the hints are unrelated
7. the shadows are there for a purpose.
Elgin Clock
06-01-2010, 19:18
So, they drop the animation award for 2010 (going by the awards section already released for this year), yet they offer 2 hints that are made with a CAD and/or animation program.
That's kind of odd... don't you think?
Oh, & btw... for anyone who wants to go scale this field picture, here is the drawing for the (2009 & previous) outrigger device shown.
If it has changed dimensionally for this year since 2006 when this pdf was released, then I would be surprised.
http://www2.usfirst.org/2006comp/Drawings/2006_FRC_Field_Outrigger_Fab_&_Assy.pdf
Oh, & here's the gate assembly document just for kicks as well:
http://www2.usfirst.org/2006comp/Drawings/2006_FRC_Field_Gate_Fab_&_Assy.pdf
Oh, & one more thing. If the gate shown were to be put into the middle of the field, it could happen with the same size field BUT you would have to get rid of an upright support that is right in the middle of the field.
Or just put the gate between the outriggers which exist already (2009 field shown).
http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles/FE-00032.pdf
Ok I maybe just looking at it too much, but does it look like the shadows are laying against the floor angling upwards?
LavastormSW
06-01-2010, 19:24
Ok I maybe just looking at it too much, but does it look like the shadows are laying against the floor angling upwards?
That may be because the light source is to the left of the camera, most likely low.
Tetraman
06-01-2010, 19:28
Looks like a flag to me. Or Balls on a Rail.
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f242/ErwinTheSketcher/Option1.png
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f242/ErwinTheSketcher/Option2.png
Danny Blau
06-01-2010, 19:34
there seems to be a mismatch in the shadows, the ramp's shadow seems to be to small for where the light source seems to be coming from? but CAD programs put the shadows in for you so I don't know what to make of it all.
Danny
RoboMaster
06-01-2010, 19:37
Ok here is what i think
the gate in this photo isnot in the old spot neither is it in the middle, my team set up the field in okc and i know the gate was between two side pieces the middle is one piece that said the only other way it could be oriented going off the yellow pieces is half way between the middle and the old position
This is very interesting and I agree. This can still support that the gates are more in the middle because of game structures on the side.
Can you explain more/show pictures? I want to understand this better.
Looks like a flag to me. Or Balls on a Rail.
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f242/ErwinTheSketcher/Option1.png
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f242/ErwinTheSketcher/Option2.png
Just curious but where did you get those pictures from?
Rion Atkinson
06-01-2010, 19:42
OK. Lets look at what is not there!
The track from hint #1 is not in hint #2.
so where is it? Well if the field is symmetrical then we can multiply the hint#2 view by 4. we are now seeing almost 1/3 of the total field surface. The area we cannot see is the middle and the two ends.
The track from hint #1 seemed to want to be attached to other pipe. Thus the long pair of pipe must be somewhere we cannot see. I suggest it be against the ends of the field. Because the lexan frame that holds the pipe would need to be mounted to some support.
:)
What if we are thinking of the Clue #1 as small... What if is was huge, and spanned the field. :D And the robots have to hand game pieces in the holes, while being able to drive under it! :D Pure evil! Small holes, low clearance. :D
What if we are thinking of the Clue #1 as small... What if is was huge, and spanned the field.
I think personally that clue #1 was a piece that is inserted inside the two guard rail and has a goal or something attached to it. I don't know if this was said before but yeah that is my idea on the relationship between these two clues.
D.Allred
06-01-2010, 19:51
I think we may be going about this wrong. Bill has previously stated that FIRST is striving to get teams at least 10 qualification matches.
"FIRST is striving to ensure all FRC Regional Events have a minimum of 10 qualification rounds." (Bill's Blog September 29th.)
The first hint appears to be a field element with quick-connect couplings for easier, more efficient set up. The second hint is a gate - maybe a third gate or wider gate to make match reset more efficient.
The hint - play faster. We want more matches!
Just a thought.
In my opinion, the message being communicated is that we are back on carpet this year. I'm curious about the lack of plastic siding, as mentioned before.
Rion Atkinson
06-01-2010, 20:01
In my opinion, the message being communicated is that we are back on carpet this year. I'm curious about the lack of plastic siding, as mentioned before.
I'm with you on that. Thank the Lord for carpet. That floor last year was pure evil. Sure was fun though! :D
Eugene Fang
06-01-2010, 20:03
The hint - play faster. We want more matches!
1 minute matches!!!
JK.... Well I hope... they better not do that.
WhiteShadow1474
06-01-2010, 20:31
In my opinion, the message being communicated is that we are back on carpet this year. I'm curious about the lack of plastic siding, as mentioned before.
hallelujah. even to this day, the thought of no friction sends shivers up my spine!
Cooley744
06-01-2010, 20:44
My guess is that this photo is being used to communicate 2 things: 1) WE ARE ON CARPET!!! Praise God. 2) assuming the field is built symmetrically, the 1st game hint is somewhere else on the field.
I know both of these issues have already been presented. My main reason for posting is to say that I don't see the ramp size or yellow pads to be part of the actual hint. Yet again, WHO KNOWS! I never guess right lol
Thuvishan.R
06-01-2010, 20:45
What if we are thinking of the Clue #1 as small... What if is was huge, and spanned the field. :D And the robots have to hand game pieces in the holes, while being able to drive under it! :D Pure evil! Small holes, low clearance. :D
hmm * thinks of overdrive year :rolleyes: *
rulesall2
06-01-2010, 20:47
I agree. If a human player had to stand on/near one of the panels, there's a chance that a robot could potentially hurt them. I see no plexiglass/fence/whatever to prevent that.
Here is a summary of the thread to avoid idea repetition.
The gate and gate location: If both fields (the pictures from above 2009 and 2010) are in fact in proportion, the gate is larger than 2009, in reference to the yellow pads, but the pads could easily be different sizes. There is evidence here about a new beta test gate that was larger: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/34329 If you look to see how many "sections" if you will are shown in the render, there are approximately 1.5 on either side of the gate, which means, based on the 2009 field, it would be impossible to determine a location on the field. Possibly, with the hope for more matches, this is a third gate, which isn't a bad idea. The flooring appears to be carpet. The lack of plastic siding/wire: didn't put too much detail for clarity/ they don't exist, and that is part of hint. Finally, the yellow piece is used for safety to stop people from tripping:
2009 yellow:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2743/4252040943_d429839d9f_o.jpg
2010 yellow:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4044/4252040865_109e31c497_o.jpg
2009 Field: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2766/4252041163_4c728cf3f6_b.jpg
2010 hint: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2531/4252812692_54528ceee8_o.jpg
Hopefully, this will put the kibosh on repeating ideas that have already been discussed/stated.
infinitydex
06-01-2010, 20:54
READ THIS ITS THE COMPETITION
i learned that the competition is something with shooting like basketball with no baskets or basketballs. its balls like last years competition. the hint #1 is a holder for a ball that is mounted on the wall. if u look closely at hint to the bottom right corner is field and the top right is a wall. its carpet flooring and the yellow things are supports for the field wall, nothing other then that. they had it in last years competition. our team noticed that the steal plate was the loading ramp until some1 say that it was at a 90 degree angle. as we think thats a pivit point so 1+ ball in there and then flip it. also we think that u can shoot teh balls or objects over the wall.
TY
c u at the kick off january 9 2010.
Midpacific team Hawaii
infinitydex
06-01-2010, 20:55
Warming up the bullpen for #2
Since they named the last hint #1 it stands to reason that there should be at least a game hint #2.
y would u even post that
I think the hint is telling us:
1. Carpet
2. Same gate configuration - maybe larger
3. 3 gates on each side
4. scorers table moved somewhere else
5. all field elements are on the ends
Anyone recognize the program that is rendered in? and if so, would that program render clear plexiglass, or would it remain entirely clear? looking at it, there appears to be no plexiglass in the wall, if that is true, then that would imply there is no need to worry about anything escaping the playing field that is smaller than 1.5-2 feet (correct on size if possible)
infinitydex does not know the real game. If he did, he would not have come out to say what it is.
He also appears to be a rookie, without proper field setup knowledge. The plate is in fact a loading ramp, with a hinge point at the bend.
READ THIS ITS THE COMPETITION
i learned that the competition is something with shooting like basketball with no baskets or basketballs. its balls like last years competition. the hint #1 is a holder for a ball that is mounted on the wall. if u look closely at hint to the bottom right corner is field and the top right is a wall. its carpet flooring and the yellow things are supports for the field wall, nothing other then that. they had it in last years competition. our team noticed that the steal plate was the loading ramp until some1 say that it was at a 90 degree angle. as we think thats a pivit point so 1+ ball in there and then flip it. also we think that u can shoot teh balls or objects over the wall.
TY
c u at the kick off january 9 2010.
Midpacific team Hawaii
Some good ideas you have there, but I don't think that's the actual game. The second hint is a part of the edge around the field, it's not in the middle of it. The 90 degree 'bent' steel plate has a hinge so it stops robots from going off the field when there's a game going on, and folds down afterward to let them pass through, sorta like a door.
Well, I guess we'll find out in less than 3 days... Good luck!
P.S. to everyone else: Don't be pickin' on the rookie teams, guys! :P We're here to help them get off to a good start. In a way, because they don't know about past field designs, it allows them to come up with some more ideas instead of rehashing old ones over and over.
SteveGPage
06-01-2010, 21:26
Let's pretend that we don't know anything about the standard field configuration. If you look at hint 1 and 2 as images (try laying them next to each other, or over the top of each other), you will see:
Both hints have 2 parallel lines
Both hints are oriented in almost the exact same way - approx 45 degrees
Both hints have "something" in the middle of the two lines - hint 1 is the lexan, hint 2 is the gate.
Both hints are CAD renderings
Both hints have the same backgrounds
No clue what the significance is, but I don't believe in coincidences when it comes to the GDC!
Steve
.... so happy Kick-off is in 2 1/2 days (my "Geek Christmas Morning!")
Tetraman
06-01-2010, 21:27
Just curious but where did you get those pictures from?
I made them in photoshop.
In my opinion, the message being communicated is that we are back on carpet this year. I'm curious about the lack of plastic siding, as mentioned before.
That's pretty much what I've determined. Given that it's a picture of a standard field part, there's not much controversy as to what it is. I think that the main points are just the return to carpet (just to relieve some headaches), and possibly the location of the gate. I'm also curious about the lack of plastic siding, though it was probably just either an oversight or it was taken out for clarity purposes.
Just curious but where did you get those pictures from?
To me, they look like 2-minute-MS Paint-drawings. One is just colored a little differently.
ok so then for what purpose did you make them and post them in this thread? I am just curious to see the relationship from GH#2 and your pictures
Tetraman
06-01-2010, 21:36
You are now aware that the pinning rule will return to FIRST.
xPaulWallx4
06-01-2010, 21:40
Interesting. It looks like a standard FRC field gate, but it is not obviously near the end of the field. Is this a third gate in the middle of the side?
i have a feeling, that it is actually the only entrance onto and off the field. Obviously they would have one on both sides.
The hint - play faster...
1 minute matches!!!
Anyone remember that in 2001 you got a bonus for finishing early?
wolfie261995
06-01-2010, 21:56
Three alliances maybe?
Stephen of REX
06-01-2010, 21:59
Three alliances maybe?
Personally I would love to see three alliances of two, but I don't think the hints have foreshadowed this in the least.
xPaulWallx4
06-01-2010, 22:00
Since it looks like we will be on carpet again this year, that means most of the rules that were thrown out last year(high speed raming) will come back into play.
Also, I'd just like to clear this up although someone else may have already done this. But, the yellow plates next to the gate, are just velcro supports, they have always been there; even last year when we weren't really on carpet.
Personally I would love to see three alliances of two, but I don't think the hints have foreshadowed this in the least.
Just because the hints don't foreshadow it doesn't mean it's not going to happen!
Also, I'd just like to clear this up although someone else may have already done this. But, the yellow plates next to the gate, are just velcro supports, they have always been there; even last year when we weren't really on carpet.
Even though the robots played on FTP instead of carpet, the field still had a carpet base, which is why the supports still existed. The regolith was simply laid on top of the carpet and taped down.
Both hints are oriented in almost the exact same way - approx 45 degrees
Isometric is a pretty standard method of displaying stuff for a presentation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Graphical_projection_comparison.png
Dimetric and Trimetric are also in solidworks last I checked (I cannot remember if inventor uses those views too but I know isometric is pretty standard (wiki it to learn what it actually is)) so I wouldn't say 45 degrees is coincidence personally.
PAR_WIG1350
06-01-2010, 22:40
Although unlikely, this might not even be part of the field border, but rather in the field somewhere.
Thuvishan.R
06-01-2010, 22:45
I think the hint is telling us:
1. Carpet
2. Same gate configuration - maybe larger
3. 3 gates on each side
4. scorers table moved somewhere else
5. all field elements are on the ends
I agree with everything except # 3 I find that highly doubt full but if they did then that might mean an increase in alliance any one see any 4vs 4 games but I doubt that as well i think were just looking at a regular size feild with carpet with those "racks" (refrenced to game hint 1) which we saw earlier on the sides which deals with scoring. Those yellow markers were probably just to throw us off. As well think about it? why would we put a game peice or human players right where there will be constant traffic flow of robots entering and exiting the feild. Those yellow tabs are just ment to hold the field down to the carpet.
SteveGPage
06-01-2010, 22:54
Isometric is a pretty standard method of displaying stuff for a presentation.
Yes, I know. But "WHY" did they use two isometric CAD drawings. In previous years they used a mix of different media such as, pictures, LAT/LONG, Poems, Riddles, Rhymes, etc... This year they used TWO images that are very similar in composition. My point is, don't take the images in isolation. It could be their commonality that is the clue.
Best regards,
Steve
Chief Samwize
06-01-2010, 23:01
I believe this hint is less about the gate itself and more about the floor beneath it. To me it does not look like the regular carpet used by FIRST in the past games. To me it looks closer to maybe the foam tiles similar to the field used in the vex tournaments.
I'm not entirely sure about the exact flooring but i think that is the purpose of the hint.
Just my $0.02 lol
-Sam
Then again I'm probably waaaaaayyy off lol
delsaner
06-01-2010, 23:03
Personally I would love to see three alliances of two, but I don't think the hints have foreshadowed this in the least.
Just because the hints don't foreshadow it doesn't mean it's not going to happen!
Im sure we switched from alliances of two to alliances of three for a reason, so I can't see a reason why we would want to go back. Plus, three alliances of two would be confusing to rank and to scout.
Although unlikely, this might not even be part of the field border, but rather in the field somewhere.
however, you have to take into account the robot gate in the middle.
infinitydex
06-01-2010, 23:47
that is a bording ramp but the rest is real. they sent out on the internet game management look it up. the ramp was just a guess
infinitydex
06-01-2010, 23:50
Unless they are giving us different wheels this year... Or the GDC threw us a curveball and the field will be grey colored regolith... >_>
if the fields carpet then they probobly will have diffrent wheels
RoboMaster
06-01-2010, 23:51
To me it does not look like the regular carpet used by FIRST in the past games. To me it looks closer to maybe the foam tiles similar to the field used in the vex tournaments.
Yeah I've thought about that too. But there's no real way to tell and I think it could just as well be regular carpet.
Your focus on the carpet brings me to think (in my opinion) that the focus is on the gate. There must be some significance about it, so I think this furthers the possibility that the gates are moved and possibly too that the field is majorly re-organized.
that is a bording ramp but the rest is real. they sent out on the internet game management look it up. the ramp was just a guess
...internet game management? Enlighten me. Link, or it didn't happen.
infinitydex
06-01-2010, 23:59
iam not shure of the link or site i looked it up on google
game management
Yes, I know. But "WHY" did they use two isometric CAD drawings.
True, last year all we got was a fish. They could also be completely unrelated in the hopes people would get confused about a supposed relationship (Dave is probably laughing somewhere). But now that I think about it it is pretty intriguing.
infinitydex I highly doubt a simple google search could get you the whole FRC game. I also doubt you would just lose the link if you truely thought it was the game. If I found this supposed "entire FRC game site" online I would hit the bookmark button so fast...
SpaceOsc
07-01-2010, 00:01
THE GATES ARE THE SAME SIZE, but there weren't any yellow pads at the very ends of the field as shown in green, only the center fits best.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=8238&d=1262840708
infinitydex
07-01-2010, 00:01
Yeah I've thought about that too. But there's no real way to tell and I think it could just as well be regular carpet.
Your focus on the carpet brings me to think (in my opinion) that the focus is on the gate. There must be some significance about it, so I think this furthers the possibility that the gates are moved and possibly too that the field is majorly re-organized.
a few years ago they had just plain carpet not tiles
infinitydex
07-01-2010, 00:04
True, last year all we got was a fish. They could also be completely unrelated in the hopes people would get confused about a supposed relationship (Dave is probably laughing somewhere). But now that I think about it it is pretty intriguing.
infinitydex I highly doubt a simple google search could get you the whole FRC game. You are not giving yourself much credibility on the forum. Especially when you changed your description because you realized that the ramp like thing was for bringing bots in and out.
i noticed that 2 i actually thought it was watever i said it was because last year they removed them instead of leaving um in a 90 degree angle
Tiles? Do you mean the regolith from last year? As far as I know all the competitions but last year were on carpeting.
Removing does sound familiar since I remember them putting a piece of Lexan on the gate.
infinitydex
07-01-2010, 00:09
Tiles? Do you mean the regolith from last year? As far as I know all the competitions but last year were on carpeting.
Removing does sound familiar since I remember them putting a piece of Lexan on the gate.
no not the luner surface stuff like regulag house carpet
So tiles of carpet instead of one big roll? I am still confused what you mean by tiles.
Tiles? Do you mean the regolith from last year? As far as I know all the competitions but last year were on carpeting.
Removing does sound familiar since I remember them putting a piece of Lexan on the gate.
Not quite. Maize Craze was played on corn, if Wikipedia is indeed correct (and I trust the FIRST community to keep it as such). I think that there were a few other playing surfaces too, but as I have little knowledge of past games, I don't know which ones they were. Weren't the ramps for 2007 diamond-plate?
a few years ago they had just plain carpet not tiles
I don't think that FIRST has ever used tiled carpet. It's probably always been the big rolls - probably cheaper, and considerably easier to set up.
...internet game management? Enlighten me. Link, or it didn't happen.
Maybe he means this?
http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/content.aspx?id=16119
It's already been posted by a couple other people...
infinitydex
07-01-2010, 00:14
still the top right corner of the image hint #2 does look like a wall
i cant belive last year someteams goal was just ram another bot (lol) is
waiting for the kick off is like studing the molecular structure of grass
while being hit on the head by a frying pan
ya and i mean like a role of carpet
Chris is me
07-01-2010, 00:15
So tiles of carpet instead of one big roll? I am still confused what you mean by tiles.
VEX / FTC fields are made of interlocking foam tiles. Think "puzzle piece" foam you might see in kid's play areas....
Someone cool suggested it as a joke, but what about a rubber high traction field? Smart programming and gearing would be needed to avoid tripping a breaker on such a surface...
Lil' Lavery
07-01-2010, 00:15
I'm not so sure why everyone (save one other poster in this thread) assumes this is a CAD program instead of an animation program.
I am trying to figure out plain carpet vs tiles now it sorta seems like he means a solid roll of carpet instead of carpet tiles / multiple pieces of carpet.
I am aware of maize craze, the 2007 rack was made of some diamond plate.
Are you thinking of Raising the Bar? from 04? Had the steps with the bar in the center, not sure what that was made out of.
Maybe he means this?
http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/content.aspx?id=16119
It's already been posted by a couple other people...
Thats called a hint... it doesn't lay out the game... last year we got a picture of a fish as our clue... that isn't exactly an all telling website ;)
CAD files can still be imported into animation programs though I suppose the materials may not act correctly.
I'm not so sure why everyone (save one other poster in this thread) assumes this is a CAD program instead of an animation program.
That was my original thought! The first hint was definitely in Inventor, but this looked distinctly different to me, and I can't believe that I forgot to bring it up earlier.
Animation screenshottttt.
I don't think that FIRST has ever used tiled carpet. It's probably always been the big rolls - probably cheaper, and considerably easier to set up.
I couldn't imagine setting up individual tiles and taping them together even a few rolls of carpet, at 10k lakes in 08 there was a robot that ended up almost driving through the carpet when it hit the wall in autonomous (speed controllers at full speed after impact) so I don't think tiles would hold up.
edit: It is time to sleep, I am slowly becoming a game hint addict... :rolleyes:
RoboMaster
07-01-2010, 00:21
Someone cool suggested it as a joke, but what about a rubber high traction field?
Bill did say (http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2009/09/tune-in-tomorrow.html) that they were testing traction "mechanisms"....
infinitydex
07-01-2010, 00:21
last year as i looked up was the only year that they did something other then carpet or atleast first time doing lunar surface
As far as I know First year was on Corn, last year was lunar surface and every other year carpet excluding things like ramps (raise the bar in 04)
Stack Attack in 03
The 4-foot wide by 12-foot long by 2-foot high game platform is located across the center of the playing
field. The horizontal surface of the platform is High Density Polyethylene (HDPE). Both platform
approach ramps are 8 feet long by 12 feet wide (three 4’ x 8’ sections). They are sloped approximately 14
degrees from horizontal and are surfaced with open 1” by 1” welded wire steel mesh.
infinitydex
07-01-2010, 00:27
As far as I know First year was on Corn, last year was lunar surface and every other year carpet excluding things like ramps (raise the bar in 04)
most likely if it was lunar surface they may have made the floor white in my oppinion.
of cource last year they had a fish a hint so this may not be reliable but any idea about the hint #1 wat was that. could that have been an object holder
most likely if it was lunar surface they may have made the floor white in my oppinion.
of cource last year they had a fish a hint so this may not be reliable but any idea about the hint #1 wat was that. could that have been an object holder
It's been discussed, and that idea has actually come up several times in the 500-some posts of the thread (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=79453).
Last year's fish indicated a slippery surface and the idea of the moon. There was plenty of reliability in that, it was simply over-analyzed.
PS, spell check is your friend [:
infinitydex
07-01-2010, 00:41
:D
o now i get the fish. iam not the person to look that up iam the main driver and builder i never thought about that
any ideas about the objects in the game
<('_')>
most likely if it was lunar surface they may have made the floor white in my oppinion.They did, last year. They took a substance known as Glasliner FRP and laid it over carpet to form the field. This flooring was, for purposes of the competition, known as "regolith". It was, in fact, white (to start with).
Let's review field surfaces:
1992: corn. Yep, corn.
1993-1997: I don't know much about these, but I believe they were carpet.
1998-2002: Carpet, even on ramps.
2003: Carpet on the floor, HDPE on top of the ramp in the middle, copper grating to form the ramps up to the HDPE.
2004: Carpet on the floor, HDPE on top of the platforms.
2005: Carpet, with plastic triangles in various places.
2006: Carpet, with diamond-plate and Lexan ramps.
2007: Carpet. Other materials you might drive on were up to the teams.
2008: Carpet.
2009: See above description.
Sean: Animation can be a form of CAD. For example, you can use it to determine whether or not you can see a particular part you need to see at X time. Of course, this doesn't seem quite in your dad's style of animation, so it's safest to assume that 1) he got some major help doing the game animation; 2) he got another few computers to run parts of it; or 3) this isn't from the game animation per se (that is, it's a scene from it that has been substantially upgraded).
infinitydex
07-01-2010, 00:44
As far as I know First year was on Corn, last year was lunar surface and every other year carpet excluding things like ramps (raise the bar in 04)
Stack Attack in 03
i can c that but is there actually a reason for it??:confused:?? is it part of the game exept to crash another robot into
i can c that but is there actually a reason for it??:confused:?? is it part of the game exept to crash another robot into
Oh, yes, it was a big part of the game. You see, the entire top of the ramp in 2003 had stacks of boxes on top. Your objective was to knock as many as possible into your scoring area, then stack about half of them, then park on the top for some large number of points.
The number of points for the top should probably have been smaller, though, if stacking was to be encouraged. You see, every time a stack more than one or two high showed up, somebody parked next to it, ready to topple it, hence the name, Stack Attack. Then the robots already on top could block other robots from coming up. This made a lot of sense, as there were a lot of points on that top of the ramp. And yes, it was possible to get all four robots up on top at the same time (this was before the 3-team alliance came along).
By the way, I think your idea that there might be something that tips is reasonable. I just think it's going to be the part that went up as Hint #1. We haven't really had an "active" field element in a while; 2007 was the last one and it almost doesn't count. 2001 was the last truly active one, IMO (central seesaw).
we need a better chat site:o
ChiefDelphi is a forum, not a chat. There is a distinct and important difference.
Please try to avoid rapid, back-and-forth exchanges that mimic chat. It makes it very difficult for others to follow along and often contains little additional useful information than there'd be if some restraint and thought were put into your posts.
Thanks.
RoboMaster
07-01-2010, 01:21
If the field really is shaped differently this year, how might it be shaped? More specifically, how was it shaped in previous years? I know we had some circles and squares...
I'm thinking it might be hexagonal. Basically putting bends in the middle of the rectangular field that has been used recently. That supports having two brackets on each side of the gates.
Danny Blau
07-01-2010, 01:46
what about the standard ~25'x50' field but instead of having the drivers stations oh the short sides facing each other why not having all the drivers on the long side facing the crowd, this would allow the gates to be on the ends which would make loading robots onto and off the field much smoother
just watch out for other coaches listening in on strategies
Danny
MikeReilly
07-01-2010, 06:21
Significant field dimension changes would be difficult, as most venues can't handle anything other than a reduction.
I put this in the other thread, but decided to put it here too: the floor looks like Astroturf to me!
GaryVoshol
07-01-2010, 07:11
Those yellow plates serve one other purpose. The spot between the yellow and the field wall is a good place for the ref/scorer/resetter to store a waterbottle so it doesn't get kicked over. Maybe a Diet Coke can?
Tetraman
07-01-2010, 08:24
Those yellow plates serve one other purpose. The spot between the yellow and the field wall is a good place for the ref/scorer/resetter to store a waterbottle so it doesn't get kicked over. Maybe a Diet Coke can?
This is actually true, at least in the far corners. Except the resetters are usually given a place to sit during matches, which is where they'd keep their bottles. And they don't give out sodas...just water. It's healthy.
Assuming both hints are showing field structures, I can draw four conclusions:
1. The yellow plastic plates guard the potential trip hazard. This insinuates that people must move along the length of the field quite a bit. There are two types of people who would do this: Referees and Human Players. Since 2006, the Human Players have been pretty much stationary; perhaps this year the HPs will have a more dynamic and active role in the game, moving up and down the field.
2. Hint #2 either shows (roughly) a third of the field, either in the middle or near one of the drivers' stations. There are no other field elements shown, and more importantly, no place for the Hint #1 contraption to connect. Therefore, the Hint #1 piece must be either smack dab in the middle of the field, perhaps running the length of the field, or near the drivers' stations. (I'm using the theory of a bowling-ball-return-style track here).
3. If Hint #2 shows an outer third of the field, the "chamfer" that has been on the corners the past couple years must be gone, and we're back to a rectangular field.
4. There are no boundary markings shown on Hint #2, so the entire field is shared by the alliances (unlike 2008 when it was in quadrants or 2006 when it was in halves) and there are no floor tracking markings (as in the white tape in 2004 leading to the bonus balls). Furthermore, the robot starting postions are not on the sides of the field, like they were in 2006 and 2009 - rather they will be near the drivers' stations or in the center of the field.
With the carpet (perhaps tile?) floor and wide-open field, this promises to be a fast-paced, highly interactive game with scoring largely on the periphery of the field, like 2006.
Perhaps the game pieces are stored at an elevated location along the opposite drivers' station wall; the robots must go the length of the field to gather the game objects. The goals at least begin near their respective alliance stations.
As a side note, it is easier to clean spilled Diet Coke, Krispy Kremes, Haagen-Dazs and Cracker Jacks off the yellow plastic sheets than carpet.
nathanww
07-01-2010, 09:27
There are no other field elements shown, and more importantly, no place for the Hint #1 contraption to connect. Therefore, the Hint #1 piece must be either smack dab in the middle of the field, perhaps running the length of the field, or near the drivers' stations. (I'm using the theory of a bowling-ball-return-style track here).
I'd be wary about the lack of the Hint 1 contraption and the conclusion that this will be a "wide open field". We've already established that the render could be missing elements, and in any case, the steep vertical camera angle means that there very well could be a suspended track system we're just not seeing.
zakthemac
07-01-2010, 09:53
ok, if you look at the playing field of 2009 you see the gates have one ramp, but this year there is 2 sides to the ramp, the hint is we have carpet this year. last year the playing field was off the ground by like 2/3 of an inch this year were on carpet and flat on the ground.... so the gate now have a tripping hazard......... I THINK...... ITS THE ONLY THING I CAN COME UP WITH!!!:ahh:
... in any case, the steep vertical camera angle means that there very well could be a suspended track system we're just not seeing.
... the Hint #1 piece must be either smack dab in the middle of the field, perhaps running the length of the field ...
With no major elements or objects shown, I think the emptiness is the hint. What is the point of showing an established field structure by itself except to highlight that it is, in fact, by itself?
viper110110
07-01-2010, 10:14
There appears to be a border around the field, which is why there are 2 parts to the trip gate. With a raised border (about 2 inches it looks like) there could be something they fill the field with. This could possibly be water, or they might do corn kernels (see the first game). I thought they were going to save the remake of the original game for the 20th anniversary (next year), but I might be wrong. They could also have the field empty and fill it as we play.
With the other hint, those could possibly be rails that we have on our bot that we use to move, and we don't even use wheels this year.
As a side note, the first game hint could be we attach our bot to one end of one of the poles with our teammate beside us, and we have a tug of war with the other team :D
EDIT: I don't know about any other competitions, but the GTA regional is held at the Hershey Centre, which is a hockey arena, so ice is definitely not out of the question.
FIRSTtm134
07-01-2010, 10:53
They wont go back to regolith this year. there were to many issues with it. There was the major static problem, and the field always had bumps in it that robots would get stuck on do to the robot restrictions. Chances are with this hint they are just telling us the gates moved a little. thats probably it. Dont read into this too much becaues as we know the hint never reveals much.
GaryVoshol
07-01-2010, 11:13
ok, if you look at the playing field of 2009 you see the gates have one ramp, but this year there is 2 sides to the ramp, the hint is we have carpet this year. last year the playing field was off the ground by like 2/3 of an inch this year were on carpet and flat on the ground.... so the gate now have a tripping hazard......... I THINK...... ITS THE ONLY THING I CAN COME UP WITH!!!:ahh:The ramp has always had two parts - a fixed part outside the field and a moving part that levered down onto the field for robot access.
There appears to be a border around the field, which is why there are 2 parts to the trip gate. With a raised border (about 2 inches it looks like) there could be something they fill the field with. The edge of the field was always a piece of aluminum angle, 3x3 or 4x4 and about 1/4" or 3/8" thick. It is cut down a little bit at the gate location, as shown in the hint.
what about the standard ~25'x50' field but instead of having the drivers stations oh the short sides facing each other why not having all the drivers on the long side facing the crowd, this would allow the gates to be on the ends which would make loading robots onto and off the field much smoother
The thing with that is that venues are all set up differently. While many arenas have the black backdrop curtain running parallel to the long side of the field, there are definitely many where the field is in a different orientation in relation to the audience. At Kettering, the bleachers are set up running parallel to the long side of the field, and the curtain is parallel to the short side. Having all of the drivers on a long side would make make one side of the audience very unhappy.
A hexagonal field would be neat, but it probably wouldn't be a regular hexagon. You could have two longer sides for the alliance stations, two shorter sides for human players, and the other two sides would be the same size as the human player stations, and the gates would be located there.
Or...the field could be triangular. Like the recycling logo, you know? ;)
artdutra04
07-01-2010, 12:25
1. The yellow plastic plates guard the potential trip hazard. This insinuates that people must move along the length of the field quite a bit. There are two types of people who would do this: Referees and Human Players. Since 2006, the Human Players have been pretty much stationary; perhaps this year the HPs will have a more dynamic and active role in the game, moving up and down the field.This might be true, but back in Triple Play there weren't any lateral supports for the field along the areas there the human players ran.
http://www.team228.org/gallery/31/slideshow/wpi-19.jpg (http://www.team228.org/media/pictures/view/1371)
bladetech932
07-01-2010, 14:33
Can you explain more/show pictures? I want to understand this better.
ok the side railing is made of 7 pieces for easy setup and each piece looks roughly like this
============+============+============
_______==______________==______________==________
============+============+============
with the + being the link between two pieces the = being frame and the _ being empty space
now since their is an odd number of pieces it cant be in the middle but their is always the old position
but if you look at the picture here http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles/FE-00032.pdf
the old position does not have two yellow things on both sides their-for it must be in the position between the old spot and the middle
and like i said before they did not move it for no reason
Lil' Lavery
07-01-2010, 15:13
Sean: Animation can be a form of CAD. For example, you can use it to determine whether or not you can see a particular part you need to see at X time. Of course, this doesn't seem quite in your dad's style of animation, so it's safest to assume that 1) he got some major help doing the game animation; 2) he got another few computers to run parts of it; or 3) this isn't from the game animation per se (that is, it's a scene from it that has been substantially upgraded).
My comment was intended for people to consider the usage of this image, rather than the origin. People were puzzled over the omission of the polycarbonate siding or why the yellow guards weren't bent. If this image was intended for the same or similar purpose as the animation (whether or not it is actually part of the animation), absolute detail is not essential. This may well be a rough graphical representation (a "cartoon") rather than an in-depth draft.
Jon Stratis
07-01-2010, 15:25
I've seen quite a bit of assumptions floated here without much to back them up. For example - how much of the playing field does clue #2 show? To determine this, we'll base it off the official field drawings from last year (http://usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/content.aspx?id=11624).
Those drawings dictate that the rail is roughly 18 inches high, and the spacing between the vertical supports is roughly 72 inches - with the exception of the sides next to the ramp (the two fully visible sections in the clue) - those are roughly 49 inches wide.
Using that and a simple ruler, we can conclude that we can see roughly 175 inches of the side of the field - or 14.5 feet. The field the past few years has been 27x54 feet, with the 54 foot length the one we can see here - this means we can see roughly 25% of the length of the side wall of the field here - if we assume a similar 4-gate setup as years past, this becomes 50% of each side wall.
Also using a handy ruler, you can deduce that the bottom right corner is roughly 84 inches (7 feet) from the side wall - that's halfway towards the center of the field.
Put all of this together, and you can draw out a little diagram that shows what portions of the field are visible (the shaded regions below). Also included here are the possible locations of a third gate, as people have been speculating on that.
Given this visible area, what can we conclude about the game? Well, there could be no field pieces, like 2009. There could be a huge wall and overpass like 2008. There could be a huge central rack like 2007. There could be goals like 2006. In short, there could be anything, because we can't really see too much, even after we multiply it by 4 (or even 6).
Of course, there's still a lot of speculation in what i've come up with... but it is grounded in quite a bit of fact and in simple economics - it's highly likely that they aren't going to radically redesign the field, since that would require completely new fields. Reusing what they've had in the past as much as possible makes sense.
Man I hate it when people muddy up our rampant speculation with facts and logic, jeez :D
Kims Robot
07-01-2010, 15:42
So I have been pondering, and my mind keeps going back to Ladder Logic. I couldn't find any great photos of the field... anyone have any good ones on their websites? I remember it vividly, but its hard to describe. And its a good example of odd shaped fields for those who have never seen one 96-98 were odd fields, if I remember right 99 was the start of the rectangular size...
The reason I keep thinking back to this, is that I agree with the idea that the first hint could be some sort of ball track when it is flipped upside-down from how it is shown in the image.
Now if you look at the second hint, if we guess that this is just a typical field gate in the corner, but guess that it is showing that there are no corner structures like the last two years, that means the corners of the field are open from obstruction. (See my guess on the FOV in the attached image).
Then, somewhat like Ladder logic, you could have some sort of grid or high ball track structures that slant down to portions of the field, possibly from the centers of the player station walls... or maybe they go in an upward fashion? or maybe they go from the centers of the sides (more like rack & roll). The center could be a bin or a ramp or anything really, not sure we can tell anything about where the "ball tracks" might actually be/lead to.
I attached a crude drawing to show what I mean (fastest for me to draw in powerpoint).
I dunno... active imagination and flashbacks from too many past games!!
Mike Soukup
07-01-2010, 16:00
So I have been pondering, and my mind keeps going back to Ladder Logic. I couldn't find any great photos of the field... anyone have any good ones on their websites? I remember it vividly, but its hard to describe. And its a good example of odd shaped fields for those who have never seen one 96-98 were odd fields, if I remember right 99 was the start of the rectangular size...
Not great pictures, but they're better than nothing. Here's one (http://www.wildstang.org/gallery2/v/1998/1998_MWR/Image44_jpg_jpg.jpg.html) and another (http://www.wildstang.org/gallery2/v/1998/1998_MWR/Image47_jpg_jpg.jpg.html).
jamie_1930
07-01-2010, 16:23
A lot of people have been saying that there won't be regolith this year, and I was myself, but I'm starting to miss it already. With the regolith we didn't have to worry about pinning or ramming penalties and it gave us a chance to really see how robust are robots are.
Also thinking about it now, I know we don't see any regolith in the picture, but would FIRST really get all new flooring for the fields costing them money as well as every team, and then never use it again? I don't think regolith is gone and maybe it won't cover the entire field like it did last year, but it will probably be on some sections of the field. Like how last year for FTC there were certain panels with different properities, like bumpy surfaces and rollers.
Lastly when we're thinking about what the game will be this year don't think there will be some sigh of relief and the game will be easier than last year. That's not why we're in this competition, we're here to challenge ourselves with new and harder problems, and thankfully FIRST has been keeping up with that and challenging us every year.
The regolith was a specific solution to the problem of simulating gravity last year. It was used very hard over many regionals. There was much damage and cracking. Just like the carpets from past seasons it will not be reused.
FIRST also uses two rolls of carpet per regional, both for the field. Both arrive new. Neither travels with the field to the next event. Local teams typically get to the carpet to help them run offseasons and other things of that nature.
Peter Matteson
07-01-2010, 16:45
Also thinking about it now, I know we don't see any regolith in the picture, but would FIRST really get all new flooring for the fields costing them money as well as every team, and then never use it again? I don't think regolith is gone and maybe it won't cover the entire field like it did last year, but it will probably be on some sections of the field. Like how last year for FTC there were certain panels with different properities, like bumpy surfaces and rollers.
The carpet has always been replaced at every event, as was the regolith last year. They have a one and done policy.
I've seen quite a bit of assumptions floated here without much to back them up. For example - how much of the playing field does clue #2 show? To determine this, we'll base it off the official field drawings from last year (http://usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/content.aspx?id=11624).
Those drawings dictate that the rail is roughly 18 inches high, and the spacing between the vertical supports is roughly 72 inches - with the exception of the sides next to the ramp (the two fully visible sections in the clue) - those are roughly 49 inches wide.
....
I agree with you that we should use the best measurement we can find. But disagree with your selection of parts. The three full-sections of rail shown in the image are all the 72-inch length. The gate is now wider than previous years. With the extra rail visible on the ends of the image we have nearly 22 feet of rail visible. That is 40% of the standard field length. Thus we are seeing much more (80%) with symmetry.
The middle 10% of the field could have a stripe on the floor. But there is not much room for a structure like the rack-n-roll tower . . . etc.
I agree with you that we should use the best measurement we can find. But disagree with your selection of parts. The three full-sections of rail shown in the image are all the 72-inch length. The gate is now wider than previous years. With the extra rail visible on the ends of the image we have nearly 22 feet of rail visible. That is 40% of the standard field length. Thus we are seeing much more (80%) with symmetry.
The middle 10% of the field could have a stripe on the floor. But there is not much room for a structure like the rack-n-roll tower . . . etc.
I have opened and closed those gates more times that I could count and they really don't look any bigger to me. Has anyone done the measuring to confirm they are bigger?
Jon Stratis
07-01-2010, 17:12
I agree with you that we should use the best measurement we can find. But disagree with your selection of parts. The three full-sections of rail shown in the image are all the 72-inch length. The gate is now wider than previous years. With the extra rail visible on the ends of the image we have nearly 22 feet of rail visible. That is 40% of the standard field length. Thus we are seeing much more (80%) with symmetry.
The middle 10% of the field could have a stripe on the floor. But there is not much room for a structure like the rack-n-roll tower . . . etc.
Take a look at it again. If we make the (logical) assumption that the side barriers are 18 inches high like they have been in the past, you can't have each section be 72 inches based on the picture - each section would have to be 4 times longer than it is tall, while the picture is clearly closer to 2 times longer than it is tall. You state the gate is wider, but the picture simply doesn't back that up when you start measuring what is shown. in order to be 72 inches wide, the side barriers would have to stand 3 feet tall - much higher than they have in the past. While this is possible (as there's no frame of reference for us in the picture), I'm guessing it's pretty unlikely as it would obstruct the view too much for the audience.
Bob Steele
07-01-2010, 17:13
It's been discussed, and that idea has actually come up several times in the 500-some posts of the thread (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=79453).
Last year's fish indicated a slippery surface and the idea of the moon. There was plenty of reliability in that, it was simply over-analyzed.
[:
Last year's first hint (the fish) was called a MOONFISH hence the theme for the game...
perhaps the piece in the first hint was simply intended to look like a track,,,
hence some type of train or track theme for this game...
This hint.... not white regolith? carpet perhaps.....or some other dark surface.
Speculation about a hint should never be based on something that is left out of an image.....one can only analyze what IS there in the image..
If we start speculating about a big open field as some have suggested ... we might just as well speculate about a game with no robots...
SpaceOsc
07-01-2010, 17:40
I have opened and closed those gates more times that I could count and they really don't look any bigger to me. Has anyone done the measuring to confirm they are bigger?
http://i46.tinypic.com/2ebhl38.jpg
MiniNerd24
07-01-2010, 17:43
This might have been said already but if you ask me when they posted this hint they intended for it to show us something, and you guys have made excellent guesses but I think that it may be more of an update than a clue.
My thoughts: The layout of these gates are different than last year, for example, they could be on the two long ends of the field (two per a half field) and essentially turning the field sideways and putting players along the long ends, which may or may not add space for three teams to have maybe an opening onto the field (like the Air Lok for moon rocks last year) instead of just two team players using field scoring (again with the moon rocks being scored form behind the wall). Again they probably show a gate to give us a hint, but it might just be saying "hy, we're moving the gates on the field this year."
Just my thoughts. Sorry if it soundd like I was bashing somebody's idea(s).
artdutra04
07-01-2010, 17:46
Last year's first hint (the fish) was called a MOONFISH hence the theme for the game...
perhaps the piece in the first hint was simply intended to look like a track,,,
hence some type of train or track theme for this game...
This hint.... not white regolith? carpet perhaps.....or some other dark surface.
Speculation about a hint should never be based on something that is left out of an image.....one can only analyze what IS there in the image..
If we start speculating about a big open field as some have suggested ... we might just as well speculate about a game with no robots...Tracks? Dark surface that might not be carpet? Game with no robots?
I got it! Introducing the real McCoy 2010 game: Ballast Regulation!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d1/Ballast-regulator-plowing.jpg/800px-Ballast-regulator-plowing.jpg
// Don't let my loco motives derail this thread.
You know, I think that the game theme is going to be parallel.
Think about it. Dave's Morse hints point to telegraph stuff. Telegraph wires were often run in parallel, the better to keep going if one failed. More than that, they ran alongside railroad tracks, the better to maintain them. I have yet to see a train track where the rails aren't parallel, save on the open side of a switch.
Now, Hint #1 shows a device that has parallel rails. It goes on the field somewhere, most likely.
Hint #2 shows a field border, which has parallel rails. Again, it goes on/next to the field.
It's a parallel game. Now to figure out what the parallels are between the hints and the game objects...
Prash R.
07-01-2010, 17:52
This is interesting because the gate is placed in a way that we can't see the driver station wall, which is usually visible. Also the gate does look to be a bit wider. So possibly, if the gate is moved closer to the center, we may have less robots on the field, that have larger dimensions. But MOST definitely not 1 v 1 like some were saying. First is trying to speed up games, and not make them last 5 days
Tetraman
07-01-2010, 18:10
I highly doubt that they will add/subtract teams to the field. I could see a 2v2v2 game, but I don't like the idea when it's painfully obvious that the Red and Blue Alliance could "team up" against the Yellow alliance. Plus having a third team to add to the Elimination bracket would be a pain. Maybe if the field was split up into thirds and there was a robot per alliance to a third, that would get you a "1v1" game
I can't imagine the nightmare of having to cue up three different alliance.
You guys do know that back before 1999, the game was 1v1v1, right? Except in elims, when it was 1v1. The reason for 2v2 was something to the effect of, "Collusion is happening, whether or not it is intentional. Seeing as it cannot be prevented, it shall henceforth be required." Tetraman is right on on that part.
Katie_UPS
07-01-2010, 19:03
"Maby the clue is in it. Like, not exactly something, like how last year was the Moonfish, but it wasnt a moonfish, it was the Moon, lunar, whatever.
Mabey, it has something to do with the enterance gate. Like something we have to open or something"
Some one said this on facebook, and I'm not quite ready to wade through to 17 pages of thread to see if they posted it here.
I do like the idea though. They're right about the fish.
Chris is me
07-01-2010, 19:10
You guys do know that back before 1999, the game was 1v1v1, right? Except in elims, when it was 1v1. The reason for 2v2 was something to the effect of, "Collusion is happening, whether or not it is intentional. Seeing as it cannot be prevented, it shall henceforth be required." Tetraman is right on on that part.
Maybe 4v2 is harder to defend than 2v1... though experience I've had in Vex indicates it's about as hard for the best alliance to win.
I'd be unhappy with a 2v2v2 game unless there were offense and defense governing rules.
So... why is there a 3rd gate? What if the field is in 3 sections?
Rick TYler
07-01-2010, 19:11
This is actually true, at least in the far corners. Except the resetters are usually given a place to sit during matches, which is where they'd keep their bottles.
Reasons why Scorekeeper is a better job than Field Reset number 42. :) Being a scorekeeper is like being a guitarist in Dire Straits' "Money for Nothing." All we have to do is sit in a comfy chair, press the "go" button at the right time, and fight off all the groupies who want our autographs.
(Why, yes, I was a Scorekeeper for two years -- why do you ask? My "go button" finger is insured for one million dollars.)
Iceman1330
07-01-2010, 19:13
I have a sneaking suspicion that several of these clues are building together to point towards two separate conclusions.
#1 The Morse code business (telegraph stuff) is more likely pointing towards the emphasized use of communications in 2010. Combine this with the new integration of laptops at the driver station and it might just be likely that the drivers are physically separated from the robots this year. Having to use the laptops + on board cameras to navigate their now UAV's remotely.
#2 The combination of the first clue (field element- configurable ball track) and the second clue point to increased open field space with ball carrying field elements at either end potentially staffed by human players. This means robots will more than likely have to have ball pickup and handling capabilities.
My $0.02
Well you know how the GDC likes to give us obstacles to overcome. We are back to carpet and maybe this year instead of lunar gravity we will have Jupiter's gravity which is 2.3 to earth 1. Our wheels this year will be of velcro so that they adhere to the carpet and slow us down. No high speed ramming but deadly pushing matches.
Rumor: we will go back to the proper way of choosing alliances not like the last few years.
Rumor #2: Canadians don't know what the proper way to choose alliances is. (Who cares who 1114 and 2056's third partner is? They're still going to win!)
I'm still thinking parallel and possible tipping game elements
JKWarrior
07-01-2010, 19:22
OK. Lets look at what is not there!
The track from hint #1 is not in hint #2.
so where is it? Well if the field is symmetrical then we can multiply the hint#2 view by 4. we are now seeing almost 1/3 of the total field surface. The area we cannot see is the middle and the two ends.
The track from hint #1 seemed to want to be attached to other pipe. Thus the long pair of pipe must be somewhere we cannot see. I suggest it be against the ends of the field. Because the lexan frame that holds the pipe would need to be mounted to some support.
:)
how do we know that the piece in clue 1 isnt something the robots attach themselves to or carry? It could just be a required part, there's little that sas that the piece is small or big and just because its not in the 2nd clue doesnt mean they're hiding that fact from us.
JKWarrior
07-01-2010, 19:26
In 8 years of mentoring one thing I have learned is this:
Students can learn to drive on whatever they give us.
Ramps, carpet, grating, HDPE, lexan, diamond plate, regolith, other robots the driver station wall, referees, stairs, Dean, the bar, goals, the scorer's table, you name it, I've watched robots somehow manage to drive on it at events over the last few years.
As far as I'm concerned the surface we play on is is of minor consequence and easily overcome compared to what the game object is.
Wait Dean Kamon and a ref were ran over is there a video?
Nate Smith
07-01-2010, 19:31
Ramps, carpet, grating, HDPE, lexan, diamond plate, regolith, other robots the driver station wall, referees, stairs, Dean, the bar, goals, the scorer's table, you name it, I've watched robots somehow manage to drive on it at events over the last few years.
One of the first off season events I worked(I think it was WMRC, but not sure), we had a machine topple over the field barrier, taking out the program feed monitor at the scoring table. Amazingly, it still worked afterwards, and was even back the next year at the same event.
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