84 inch diameter vertical right cylindrical volume ? [Archive]

Brad Voracek

09-01-2010, 13:50

Does this not make sense to anyone else?

The Finale configuration confuses me. Does this just mean we have to fit in a 90 inch tall by 84 inch diameter cylinder? Or a sphere? If we are tipped does the cylinder rotate?

I've read the manual.

Matthew2c4u

09-01-2010, 13:52

When the last 20 seconds of the game are in effect, you cant be outside that size cylinder.
If you get tipped you wont recieve penaltys for being too big.

EricH

09-01-2010, 14:03

Take a soda can. Barring stuff around the base and top, it is a vertical right cylindrical volume. (You could also wrap paper around that can for a better impression.) Now expand it to 90" high and an 84" diameter. Fit in it.

As for the question on tipping, I can't find anything saying tipped robots are penalized for going out of their volume. I also can't find anything the other way. Q&A it and see.

engunneer

09-01-2010, 14:08

it is slightly confusing, but the cylinder is defined using the robot's coordinate system (flips over with the robot), even thought the cylinder itself is called a 'vertical' right cylindrical volume.

(specifically <R10> During the MATCH, the ROBOT will assume one of two operating configurations. When in each configuration, the ROBOT shall fit within the limits shown below (note: these limits are defined in reference to the ROBOT, not the FIELD). (emphasis mine))

cjc343

09-01-2010, 14:38

So, does this mean that the final configuration must fit inside a 84" diameter cylinder oriented to the robot's orientation, no more than 90" tall? Or is the 90" height separate from the cylinder which would then vary in height depending on the angle of the cylinder?

Seems like awful wording to me.

EricH

09-01-2010, 14:44

engunneer

09-01-2010, 14:45

the cylinder is always 84" diameter, always 90" tall, the end surfaces are always a circle (no angles involved) and all dimensions are aligned with the robot.

If your robot leans at a 10 degree angle while hanging from the tower, so does your reference cylinder.

Again with the soda can - take said soda can and bolt it to your robot such that it is sitting normally (like on a table) when your robot is on the ground. The reference cylinder is always aligned with the soda can. your robot does not need to be centered in the cylinder, just inside it.

854 bears

11-01-2010, 12:43

I have a question about the placement of this cylinder relative to the robot. I have read through the rules a couple of times, and couldnt find anything to answer my question. What I am wondering is if this cylinder has to be centered relative to the robot base (meaning you have only 42" in all directions to expand), or whether the only requirement is that your robot must fit inside an 84" diameter cylinder (meaning you could expand 84" on one side, but not the other. Any insight or clarification is greatly appreciated.

Thank you,
Team 854

Chris is me

11-01-2010, 12:47

Matt C

11-01-2010, 13:27

This year, the FINALE CONFIGURATION appears to be similar to the cylinder limit of 2008, which stated "While in the PLAYING CONFIGURATION, the ROBOT may expand up to a maximum horizontal dimension of 80 inches(e.g. all parts of the ROBOT must fit within an imaginary 80-inch-diameter upright cylinder)." (NOTE: This is a rule from the 2008 game that I am merely including for reference)

NOTE: I'll include a disclaimer that this is my interpretation of the current FINALE CONFIGURATION (rule <R10>), and the drawing is not to scale (best I could do in a short time in MS Paint).

Matt C

11-01-2010, 13:52

The height is of the cylinder. The height of the box is not separate from the box base (normal configuration). The way it works is with orientation to the robot. Therefore, should the robot tip completely onto one side, it is now in a horizontal right cylinder with a 90" length and an 84" diameter.

The rule states it is a "vertical right cylinder", therefore it would not move with the robot, but is stationary. Rule <G30> allows for righting of your robot by allowing them to "expand up to the FINALE CONFIGURATION volume while, and only while, performing the righting operation."

MrForbes

11-01-2010, 13:57

When the last 20 seconds of the game are in effect, you cant be outside that size cylinder.

During the last 20 seconds of the game, but also during the rest of the game if your robot is in contact with the TOWER. So you can get a head start if you need more than 20 seconds, is my guess.

<G30> ROBOT Volume – During a MATCH, no part of the ROBOT shall extend outside the vertical projection of the FRAME PERIMETER, except as follows:

c. TOWER Contact ROBOT Volume - During a MATCH, ROBOTS in contact with their ALLIANCE TOWER may extend beyond their NORMAL CONFIGURATION volume but may not exceed the FINALE CONFIGURATION maximum volume.

Matt C

11-01-2010, 14:19

During the last 20 seconds of the game, but also during the rest of the game if your robot is in contact with the TOWER. So you can get a head start if you need more than 20 seconds, is my guess.

Which of course is contradicted by the FINALE CONFIGURATION definition in 8.2, but I'm sure it will be amended in the first revision in Update #1. (There is an advantage to having a few thousand proof-readers checking your first release document)

Chris is me

11-01-2010, 14:20

Which of course is contradicted by the FINALE CONFIGURATION definition in 8.2, but I'm sure it will be amended in the first revision in Update #1. (There is an advantage to having a few thousand proof-readers checking your first release document)

They're mentioned in the same rule. I honestly don't think the GDC could overlook something like that. You don't have to be touching the tower in the last 20 seconds, you do before that.

MrForbes

11-01-2010, 14:24

yup, read <G30> in it's entirety a few times....

Matt C

11-01-2010, 14:24

They're mentioned in the same rule. I honestly don't think the GDC could overlook something like that. You don't have to be touching the tower in the last 20 seconds, you do before that.

The "it" I was referring to was the definition.

EricH

11-01-2010, 15:32

The rule states it is a "vertical right cylinder", therefore it would not move with the robot, but is stationary. I guess someone needs to go read <R10>. <R10> During the MATCH, the ROBOT will assume one of two operating configurations. When in each configuration, the ROBOT shall fit within the limits shown below (note: these limits are defined in reference to the ROBOT, not the FIELD).

With regards to the timeframe, rule <G30-C> would trump the definition of FINALE CONFIGURATION, as it explicitly allows expansion up to said configuration provided the tower is being contacted. Also note the use of "i.e.", which in modern usage usually means something to the effect of "such as" or "that is". It's defining the Finale; the finale configuration is the configuration the robot would take during the Finale; <G30-C> allows expansion up to the limits of the Finale Configuration, provided the tower is contacted.

Matt C

11-01-2010, 15:44

I guess someone needs to go read <R10>.

With regards to the timeframe, rule <G30-C> would trump the definition of FINALE CONFIGURATION, as it explicitly allows expansion up to said configuration provided the tower is being contacted. Also note the use of "i.e.", which in modern usage usually means something to the effect of "such as" or "that is". It's defining the Finale; the finale configuration is the configuration the robot would take during the Finale; <G30-C> allows expansion up to the limits of the Finale Configuration, provided the tower is contacted.

You are correct, I missed the note on R10, this is the first time they have ever explicitely called out the volume referenced to the ROBOT, my guess is they see a lot of robots flipping over this year.

854 bears

11-01-2010, 17:47

Sorry, but you lost me... initially Chris is me and Matt C said that so long as your robot fits within those dimensions you are alright, but it sounds like now Matt C is saying that this cylinder is in fact centered on the robot base.

Would the word "right" in the phrase: 84" diameter vertical right cylinder volume, be referring to the fact that it remains perpendicular to the robot base, rather than centered around it? Also if it is so rigidly fixed to the robot, that would disallow extending below the robot base, or would the extension just have to fit inside the 90" height maximum?

Which is correct?

GaryVoshol

11-01-2010, 18:24

A right cylinder is one where the walls meet the top and bottom at right angles. Think roll of paper towels sitting upright on the kitchen counter.

If the walls of the cylinder are not at 90* to the base of the cylinder, it is not a right cylinder. And the top and bottom would be elipses rather than circles.

The cylinder remains aligned in relation to the robot. If the robot tips over, the invisible cylinder tips over too, so it is laying on its side. This is different than what happened in previous games. For instance in Rack-n-Roll, if you tipped over while you were extending to put a ringer on the top spider leg, you probably violated the size constraints.

The robot does not have to be centered in the cylinder, it just has to fit into it at all times.

854 bears

13-01-2010, 23:07

Thank alot Gary. But also do you think that the bumpers would have to be included within this 84" maximum? or is it just to the edge of the robot perimeter?

engunneer

14-01-2010, 04:29

The bumpers are part of the robot for all rules except weight and the 28x38 max frame perimeter.

Edit: I stand corrected, see below. The rule exempts them from all configurations.

GaryVoshol

14-01-2010, 06:37

8.2 DEFINITIONS
BUMPERS – Bumper assemblies designed to attach to the exterior of the ROBOT within the BUMPER ZONE, and constructed as specified in Rule <R07>. BUMPERS are excluded from the weight and volume calculations specified in Rule <R10>.

<R07> Teams are required to use BUMPERS on their ROBOTS. BUMPERS have several advantages, such as reducing damage to ROBOTS when they contact other ROBOTS or ARENA elements, and being excluded from the calculation of ROBOT weight and volume constraints specified in Rule <R10>.
(emphasis mine)

Since <R10> defines both NORMAL CONFIGURATION and FINALE CONFIGURATION limits, the bumpers are excluded from both.

Matt C

14-01-2010, 10:22

but it sounds like now Matt C is saying that this cylinder is in fact centered on the robot base.

I had just missed the note that stated it is in reference to the robot, not the field, meaning that if the robot tips, so does the cylinder. Now I just feel my figure is correct whether the robot shown is upside down, right side up, sideways, or slantways in regard to the field.