Robot Classifications

[hipsterjr]

In the past we have had shooters, herders, dumpers, lappers, arms, cappers, and ramp bots.


So the question is: What will be the major classes of robots this year?

I think all the restrictions will actually produce a lot of varied ideas to attack the challenge.

[gorrilla]

I think there will be 4 major design types this year...

#1. kickers
#2. Goalies
#3. multi hangers
#4. Multi taskers...

[kirtar]

As broad classifications, every robot should fit in to one of these:
Front Field/Offense
Mid Field/Supply Line
Back Field/Defense
All Around/Some combination of the above.

I see each section of the field requiring a slightly different play style. No matter what, a robot will have to start in one of these and will always spend the match playing in at least one of the areas of the field. Ignoring the ability to hang/elevate, the general roles of the robots before the finale will be offense, defense, and "supply line." It is equally important to be able to defend as to score, but in order to score you must have a supply of soccer balls.

In the back you will want to run into the opponent, and launching the ball is going to be more important, and you probably won't care about avoiding the opponent (you are the hunter). You will want to be able to maintain a pin for close to the maximum amount of time.

In the Front Field you will probably actively avoid the opposing defense. You are the hunted, but you have a target of your own. I think some method of herding while possibly the ability to possess/launch a short distance will be important. Mobility here will be important to avoid a pin, but escaping a pin may also be important.

In the mid field, you will need to do a little of both. You will track down the other supplier if you want to deny the supply of balls to the opposing alliance. You will avoid them when you are going to supply your offensive bot. I can see robots that are built for this task being able to be effective on every area of the field.

BTW, the directions are kind of reversed since your goal is toward you and not away from you.

[dodar]

Our team came up woth the obvious soccer names:

1. Defender
2. Midfielder
3. Forward

of course then you have to take into account multi-ability robots like 1 and 2 or 1 and 3 or 2 and 3 or 1, 2, 3 robots. Those robots i would classify as the Beckham-bots

[Koko Ed]

I think there will be 4 major design types this year...

#1. kickers
#2. Goalies
#3. multi hangers
#4. Multi taskers...

and the multi-taksers shall rule them all!

[Akash Rastogi]

I think there will be 4 major design types this year...

#1. kickers
#2. Goalies
#3. multi hangers
#4. Multi taskers...

Agreed with these. Also agreed with Ed about the multi-taskers ruling the game (although goalie + hanger is a deadly combo too)

[gblake]

Folks,

Please don't be shy about posting your ideas in this thread - As we update the 5th Gear match simulator (2009 5th Gear thread (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73084&highlight=5th+gear)) for this season we are having to guess at the answers to this exact topic, so that we can give the simulated robots the right capabilities.

Keep tossing out ideas about different robot styles, robot functions or game play strategies so that we can soak them up and give you a better simulator.

Blake

[Chris is me]

Folks,

Please don't be shy about posting your ideas in this thread - As we update the 5th Gear match simulator (2009 5th Gear thread (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73084&highlight=5th+gear)) for this season we are having to guess at the answers to this exact topic, so that we can give the simulated robots the right capabilities.

Keep tossing out ideas about different robot styles, robot functions or game play strategies so that we can soak them up and give you a better simulator.

Blake

gblake, would it be alright if I PMed you ideas I may not want to put in the thread at this time, but I'm guessing will be competitive?

To contribute, I believe this game will of course be ruled by a team that multi tasks well. However, doing a single task extremely well is often better than doing a multi task in mediocre fashion. I believe there will be robots that primarily shoot, interact with the bar with or without teammates, or push balls. The latter will be useful strategically in the center of the field for ball control, as it's very beneficial to have balls on one end of the field. I can see an alliance of a super shooter, a bar interaction robot with limited shooting, and a robot specializing in ball control winning events.

[Mr. Pockets]

A few that I was toying with.

Offense - Pretty self explanatory (no sub-group ideas yet)

Defense (see below for sub-groups I came up with)
-Guards: bots who do the best they can to limit movement between sections
-Goalies: Guard goals

Utility
-Hangers: Bots who are both very good climbers, but also easy to climb on.
-Conveyors: middle area bots used to syphon game pieces along.

[gblake]

gblake, would it be alright if I PMed you ideas I may not want to put in the thread at this time, but I'm guessing will be competitive?It's more than alright - Please do

FYI - Robot capabilities that you/anyone might describe are what might make their way into the simulation (if they aren't too complex for our current physics, etc. or for operating using a single XBox controller - We do have limitations :)); but specific strategies that take advantage of combinations those capabilities won't be part of the game - Strategy comes from those 5.4 million hours of brainpower Dave Lavery talked about. 5th Gear users have to develop/explore their own strategies.

Also, like last year, 5th Gear won't be released until the 2nd half of the build season.

Finally, remember the long-view Dave, Woody and Dean emphasized. We win individually when we all succeed 5-10 years from now. Donating a good idea to the community just might be more rewarding than playing your cards close to your vest. I know I could be convinced to give out a few rep points to posters who do that. ;)

So - Yes please post or PM your ideas and be part of this year's successes.

Blake

[Passion]

There are different ways of "kicking". Of course, when they say kick, people right away think of how a human would kick, which was demonstrated on Today's presentation.
Our ideas of output system, would be securing the soccer ball against a piston, and then when time is right, the piston pushes the ball straight into the goal post. We just thought of this idea today, it is definitely much more sophisticated than this.

We had slightly considered of going defense, but what if our robot is the only defensive robot on the team?
I am sure it would be very hard for the our robot to defend two goal posts to prevent 3 robots scoring...
Speaking of that, I don't recall reading anything about this in the rules; is it legal to have all 3 robots that are on the same team to be on the same segment of the field?
By segment, I meant such as end zone, or mid-field, or scoring-zone

[EversmannJ]

-Conveyors: middle area bots used to syphon game pieces along.

I think these will become important. Ball control is always extremely useful in a game like this, if a Midfielder can't hit the goal consistently than their main objective should become "move as many balls to the opponent's side of the field as possible." A very simple way to do this would be herding (possibly kicking without an upwards angle) through the tunnels. A constant flow of balls into the center of the field would make the Forward's job much simpler.

[Aaron Lussier]

Just had a wacky idea.

A fast goalie bot, that has different hanging attachments to suit partners. Also, be strong enough to support the 400 some odd pounds.

[sporno]

and the multi-taksers shall rule them all!

I agree, you will also have the one magical team that can do it all , and do it well ( we have seen 71 do it a few times)

Altho I do feel that some times might find a slight shame in playing goalie. I think that a decent box bot could go very far in this game. As we have all heard before, " Defense wins Championships"

[ssa3512]

Also, be strong enough to support the 400 some odd pounds.
Given the maximum weight of ANY fieldable robot is 120 pounds, I would think you would only need to support a total of 360 pounds from your lifting device, and 240 from any part of the robot that another robot would attach to (assuming that the third robot attaches to the second one)

[EricH]

Given the maximum weight of ANY fieldable robot is 120 pounds, I would think you would only need to support a total of 360 pounds from your lifting device, and 240 from any part of the robot that another robot would attach to (assuming that the third robot attaches to the second one)
120 lbs, yes--without the battery or bumpers, which are up to 15 lbs apiece.

150 is a far better estimate per robot, so 450 is a really good set of working numbers for supporting 3 robots.

[vhcook]

Given the maximum weight of ANY fieldable robot is 120 pounds, I would think you would only need to support a total of 360 pounds from your lifting device, and 240 from any part of the robot that another robot would attach to (assuming that the third robot attaches to the second one)

Per <R10-A>The weight of the battery (~15 lbs) and bumpers (max 20 lbs <R07-G>) are not counted in the 120. Max weight is thus 155 per robot.

[ssa3512]

Ah right, I forgot the bumpers and battery are not counted in the weight. I think I need to go read the rules again about 10 more times before everything sinks in. :(

[Captain Fink]

well the 120 pound weight limit doesnt include the battery or the bumpers

[DanDon]

Speaking of that, I don't recall reading anything about this in the rules; is it legal to have all 3 robots that are on the same team to be on the same segment of the field?
By segment, I meant such as end zone, or mid-field, or scoring-zone

<G29> Defending ROBOT Restriction - Only one opposing ALLIANCE ROBOT is allowed in the
opponent’s ZONE. A ROBOT is considered in this ZONE if any part of the ROBOT is in
contact with the ZONE's green carpet. Violation: PENALTY; plus a RED CARD if effort to
remedy is not immediate.


As long as you're not talking about the opponent's scoring zone, then there are no restrictions.

[jarcrazy]

Ok being able to hold 360lbs is good and al but last year the weight of the total robot did not include the battaries and controls right. So its more like 380lbs not to mention that holding all of that weight would be an amzing feat in its own if I see three hanging robots that would be assume. You can probably tell that I don't care for the final part in this game however fun it may look I'm an offenseive person by nature.

[PAR_WIG1350]

and the multi-taksers shall rule them all!

and the multi-taskers shall be mediocre at many things!:D

I think all 'multi-taskers' will be organizable in the other categories if you try hard enough. they can't be equally good at everything.

As for who rules them all, we shall see.

note: first line reminds me of Monty Python.

[hg273]

We had slightly considered of going defense, but what if our robot is the only defensive robot on the team?
I am sure it would be very hard for the our robot to defend two goal posts to prevent 3 robots scoring...
Speaking of that, I don't recall reading anything about this in the rules; is it legal to have all 3 robots that are on the same team to be on the same segment of the field?


Remember that you can only have one robot defending the opposing zone, unless you want to incur a red card. If you want to be a solely defensive bot, you should focus on being able to defend against 2 robots. I say two, because, although it is legal to have all three robots in an offensive zone, I don't think any alliance would leave two opposing robots unguarded.

[techedguy]

In soccer the players that do it all are called midfielders. They play offense and defense effectively and play from end to end of the field. If you give up the midfield you give up the game because you'll be on defense all day long. That's soccer anyhow (but I think it translates well). Years of playing that sport and coaching it have taught me to build from the back. We might not score a lot of goals, but we don't get scored on much either. Our games are usually 1-0 or 2-1 endings...sometimes we're up and sometimes we are not, but it's never a blowout.

'Bots that play both ways well...they should just be called Midfielders!

Forwards/Wingers -- Beat the defense and score...great ball possession skills and accuracy when shooting.

Possession, smart ball distribution, and the ability to win the ball back before it makes the defensive end...the qualities of a great midfielder.

Win the ball and play it back to your own team...the role of the Backs.

The ability to climb and hang on....Monkeybots?

Backs, Midfielders, Wingers...and Monkeybots.

This game more than last year appears to require an orchestrated series of 1-on-1 situations. Each bot is 1-v-1 against the bot in their third of the field to a great extent.

(Human midfielders need speed and endurance cuz they do it for 90 minutes. here we're only worried about 135 seconds; in this game they'd also need to be able to jump hurdles!)

[kjolana1124]

and the multi-taksers shall rule them all!

Unless you try for all and end with no major strong point, ending up as only as average bot. But all and all I feel these will be the major classifications as well.

I also thing tall v. short bots will play a role. Some may build robots that can go through the tunnel, and other's won't.

[Pluribus]

Don't forget to keep in mind the "Coopertion" bonus. Because of this seeding scoring system, it can actually be useful, in seeding matches, to have your opponent score highly. For this reason, a bot that is really good at defense can actually be a detriment to the team.
The Coopertion bonus is that if you win, your seeding score is your score, plus two times your opponents score. The losing team gets what their opponent got. In a tie, both teams get 3 times the score.
9.3.5 for the specific rules regarding this... interesting seeding system.

[jvriezen]

Speaking of that, I don't recall reading anything about this in the rules; is it legal to have all 3 robots that are on the same team to be on the same segment of the field?
By segment, I meant such as end zone, or mid-field, or scoring-zone

You may only have one alliance robot 'playing defense' in the far zone (G29)