Pic: Flippable robot [Archive]

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Brad Voracek

10-01-2010, 14:33

BUMPERS – Bumper assemblies designed to attach to the exterior of the ROBOT within the BUMPER ZONE, and constructed as specified in Rule <R07>. BUMPERS are excluded from the weight and volume calculations specified in Rule <R10>.

BUMPER ZONE – the volume contained between two virtual horizontal planes, ten inches above the floor and sixteen inches above the floor.

NORMAL CONFIGURATION – The physical configuration and orientation of the ROBOT when the MATCH is started. This is the state of the ROBOT immediately before being enabled by the Field Management System, before the ROBOT takes any actions, deploys any mechanisms, or moves away from the starting location. This configuration is static, and does not change during a single MATCH (although it may change from MATCH to MATCH).

R07
A - BUMPERS must provide complete protection of the entire FRAME PERIMETER of the ROBOT (i.e. BUMPERS must wrap entirely around the ROBOT). The BUMPERS must be located entirely within the BUMPER ZONE when the ROBOT is standing normally on a flat floor, and must remain there (i.e. the BUMPERS must not be articulated or designed to move outside of the BUMPER ZONE).

F - The only markings permitted on the BUMPER fabric cover are the team number (see Rule <R15>).

R15 - Teams shall display their team number on the BUMPERS in four
locations at approximately 90-degree intervals around the perimeter of the ROBOT. The numerals must be at least 4 inches high, at least in ¾-inch stroke width and in a contrasting color from its background. Team Numbers must be clearly visible from a distance of not less than 100 feet, so that judges, referees, and announcers can easily identify competing ROBOTS.

Now for the pic -
http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/2030/loles.jpg

The only problem in the rules I see is R15, and we'll have to make numbers both upside down and upside right, or use an ambigram of the team number (hah!)

...

I think it's legal, what do you guys think?

MrForbes

10-01-2010, 14:34

I think it'll spend all of it's time on it's side.

Brad Voracek

10-01-2010, 14:36

I think it'll spend all of it's time on it's side.

Not if it's designed well :rolleyes:

MrForbes

10-01-2010, 14:45

I didnt' spend enough time figuring out how to design it well. The main problem I see is that the CG will probably end up near the middle of the bumper zone, making it relatively tippable compared to a more conventional design.

kjolana1124

10-01-2010, 14:50

We were talking about similar ideas on our team as well. I feel like that design might distribute the weight too evenly. But maybe that's just because it's a simple idea of your design and not the actual thing. I feel that a lot of people are going to be working with these ideas, which I'm really looking forward to seeing. I also think a configuration like this would make going through the tunnell faster. But again, I also feel like it would be more effective if one end had larger wheels than the other. Like this toy:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51YqkMGQ0YL._SL500_AA280_.jpg

But again, I'm not 100% sure.

On another note, I think writing your number like an ambigram would be really cool to see!

Brad Voracek

10-01-2010, 14:52

kjolana1124

10-01-2010, 15:03

Mostly I made this thread for the legality of the idea, not the practicality.

The only legal issue I can think of at teh moment is the fact that you can't control balls with an active mecanism above the bumper zone. Our team interpreted that as it can be staic when it touches the ball, but can't move. What if you have those upper wheels spinning and a ball lands on them and is moved? I'm not sure if they would count it, but it is something to watch out for.

GGCO

10-01-2010, 15:42

If you can figure out a way for the bumpers to be level, and at the regulated height, at all times you'll be good.

engunneer

10-01-2010, 16:03

Certainly a cool idea. You won't be able to go through the tunnel since you'll be 26" tall (assuming bumpers centered on 13" in both orientations), and if you're able to go over the bump, i'd be worried about balls getting caught.

you could have cool little counterweighted shields to cover the upper set of wheels.

I also agree you'll have to end up with 8 numbers unless you can make the ambigram, which is alot harder.

Also important to note is that your power switch needs to be accessed and the diagnostic light needs to be visible. Both of those requirements are possible if they are well placed.

TEntwistle

10-01-2010, 16:16

Another issue to consider is carrying the game balls. Any robot that is flippable will have the potential to carry balls inadvertantly unless you want to cover the top and bottom sides - that will really limit the chances of being compliant with other rules or to do anything other than push a ball.

afowl

10-01-2010, 17:24

The only legal issue I can think of at teh moment is the fact that you can't control balls with an active mecanism above the bumper zone. Our team interpreted that as it can be staic when it touches the ball, but can't move. What if you have those upper wheels spinning and a ball lands on them and is moved? I'm not sure if they would count it, but it is something to watch out for.

Can you tell me where that rule is because I can't find what you are referencing?

BRAVESaj25bd8

10-01-2010, 17:30

In reference to afowl's question:

<G45> Active BALL control - ROBOTS may not control BALL direction with active MECHANISMS above the BUMPER ZONE. Violation: PENALTY.

Racer26

10-01-2010, 17:34

Can you tell me where that rule is because I can't find what you are referencing?

<G45> Active BALL control - ROBOTS may not control BALL direction with active MECHANISMS above the BUMPER ZONE. Violation: PENALTY.

My question here, is that obviously the INTENT of this rule is to not have a mechanism on the top of your robot, such as a conveyor belt, to push the ball toward your end. But the letter of the rule seems to make designing an invertable robot difficult.

also; here's another interesting way to interpret it: looking at the definition of a MECHANISM:

MECHANISM – A COTS or custom assembly of COMPONENTS that provide specific functionality on the ROBOT. A MECHANISM can be disassembled (and then reassembled) into individual COMPONENTS without damage to the parts.

My take on this is that the specific INTENDED functionality of those wheels was to DRIVE the robot, as opposed to them being there with the purpose of modifying the trajectory of a ball that happens to land there.

Chris is me

10-01-2010, 17:42

Interesting idea, I must say.

I would be very disappointed if the concept were disallowed just because there would be upside down team numbers. That seems rather strict, but it's enough of an issue that I'd make a Q&A about it if I were you.

What if you write your number upside down and right side up on the same bumper? I think that meets the rule just fine.

Youarefunny

10-01-2010, 21:22

As long as the mechinism that is facing the sky isn't moving ur fine i think.

Racer26

11-01-2010, 10:47

Yes, I agree, as long as the skyward mechanism isn't moving, you're definitely fine. However, I'm interested to see what Q&A has to say about it, because its much simpler to build an invertible drive system that has all wheels running all the time. That's not to say you couldn't do something to solve the issue of G45, because you can, it's just complicated, and keeping it simple is almost always better.

Brandon Holley

11-01-2010, 11:26

An idea I have here is that, what if your design was similar to what you have here, with a couple differences. What if you planned to have a main drive side, so that if every match were to go your way, the same 6 wheels were on the ground. However, if you happened to get fllipped over you had a "reserve drive system" on the top. What if this drive system was shorter, so that in its driving orientation your bumpers were no longer in the 10"-16" zone? The goal of this system is simply to keep your robot mobile so you could still play defense, or possibly even hang. Interesting idea I must say...

-Brando

Daniel_LaFleur

11-01-2010, 11:30

My question here, is that obviously the INTENT of this rule is to not have a mechanism on the top of your robot, such as a conveyor belt, to push the ball toward your end. But the letter of the rule seems to make designing an invertable robot difficult.

also; here's another interesting way to interpret it: looking at the definition of a MECHANISM:

My take on this is that the specific INTENDED functionality of those wheels was to DRIVE the robot, as opposed to them being there with the purpose of modifying the trajectory of a ball that happens to land there.

The wheels above your robot are a mechanism because they provide specific functionality (drive power during inversion).

That said, the rules state that the mechanism must be active for it to be a penalty, so as long as the wheels are not active thats not an issue.

Also there is no rule that he numbers on your bumper need to be upright ... just a minimum height, stroke, and readable :D .

Gearheads1

12-01-2010, 21:24

I think the definition of "Normal Configuration" disallows this. Copying from your first post "NORMAL CONFIGURATION – The physical configuration and orientation of the ROBOT when the MATCH is started" Since the orientation between top and bottom is one way at the beginning of the match, I don't know that you can swap them through the match.

star_lancer

12-01-2010, 23:08

You might be wary of using this design. If your robot is upside down it may start the ten second grace period stated in rule <G32>. This will mostly be up to the ref. And that opens up a cornicopia of weird situations. Rules about touching balls, interacting with other robots, etc. Really, to cleare this up though, you have to go to Q&A. It opens at noon EST tomorrow.

star_lancer

12-01-2010, 23:12

Brandon Holley

12-01-2010, 23:25

I think the ref's would disable your robot if it was driving around with its bumpers outside of the bumper zone.

So if my robot drove on top of the bump it would be disabled? Because my bumpers are now outside of the bumper zone? I'm just trying to show how some of these rules seem like they can be interpreted in different ways.

big1boom

12-01-2010, 23:32

Another issue with a robot such as this is the Robot Status Light. It is required to be visible, and if you have a robot that drives upside down the RSL would most likely be obstructed.

Chris is me

13-01-2010, 09:59

Another issue with a robot such as this is the Robot Status Light. It is required to be visible, and if you have a robot that drives upside down the RSL would most likely be obstructed.

You could run more than one RSL.

butinz

13-01-2010, 13:39

my team number is 1001 so we dont have this issue

Leav

13-01-2010, 16:55

my team number is 1001 so we dont have this issue

I think it would be awesome if only teams with rotationally symmetric team numbers are allowed build flippable robots... :)

Tuba4

16-01-2010, 17:43

This should answer the issue of a soccer ball hitting a second drivetrain located on top of a robot:

"If there is a component of the drivetrain, such as a belt/conveyor/wheel, exposed to the top of the robot that is moving/rotating, would this violate Rule <G45> if a ball were to fall on top of the robot and contact one of these moving belts/wheels? I dont believe this belt would be considered a mechanism because you cannot disassemble a belt any further without destroying its function."

GDC
Game Design Committee Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,007

Re: Clarification of Rule <G45>

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"Incidental contact with MECHANISMS or COMPONENTS that do not control the direction of the BALL is permitted."