View Full Version : Effectiveness of Kicking vs. Pushing
So, I think there are the two main categories(of mechanisms, strategy may vary) for this year(similar to shooter/dumper from last year). Kicking would be effective for getting the ball long range down the field/Getting the ball between zones. This would be useful in the case that you're robot was in the opposite alliance's zone. Pushing will be most useful to score the balls in the goal's(Gentler). Thoughts on the subject/Thoughts on which one will be more widespread this year?
,4lex S.
10-01-2010, 18:25
I don't think you need to compromise at all. I would guess that all you need to do to score short range is drive a ball into the goal. Having a kicker while still maintaining this ability should not be too challenging. Even a variable power kicker to modify your range should be not too bad to design.
Mtg Ruler
10-01-2010, 18:34
I see kicking as the best way to get the balls into the goals, even in your own zone, because then you dont have to spend the time to move to the goal, then move back to get another ball.
for regionals, I expect there to be a wide range of kickers, but still many teams will push the balls (either to a really bad kicking design, or no kicking mechanism at all). Once the championships roll around, i think there will be more kickers than pushers.
Robotbug
10-01-2010, 18:45
I think that kicking would be more popular because by pushing you have to move very close to the goal, and there is always that chance that pushing would not get it into the goal.
So kicking for the win. =]
Phoenix Spud
10-01-2010, 18:52
What about a shooter? I think that this might be hard since we can't hold a ball, but I am sure some teams could come up with something!
I agree that "kickers" (or robots that can "physically repel the ball using some mechnical device") will be much better than just "pushers." However, in the offence zone, I think pushers might do OK. It will be interesting to see what happens in week 1.
I think a more important question to as would be angled kicks or horizontal kicks(rolls)?
I'd imagine rolling would be more accurate and easier to get into the goals, but it may have trouble with the bumps where angled kicks could clear them easily.
I had that same "angle versus flat" idea...and was thinking of there was any way to change the angle of the contact surface on the "kicker"...im pretty stumped right now, but I guaruntee its possible
DiehardCybercard
10-01-2010, 19:41
I think that kicking would be more popular because by pushing you have to move very close to the goal, and there is always that chance that pushing would not get it into the goal.
So kicking for the win. =]
i agree. Ill use an example from lunacy to back up kickers. Our robot had a conveyor belt to pick up empty cells and deliver them to the fueling stations. even though we were right there sometimes when we ran the conveyor we still missed. When you only have so man seconds to complete a task its imperative to do ti right the first time, and quickly. when you get down to it the time spent pushing seems to me a great deal more than kicking. if you have a kicker and miss you can easily get another ball and kick from that new location, where as with a pusher you have to drive all the way back to the goal.
Of course I could go to the boiler maker regional and see a team with the most beastly pusher and they win the whole thing, but I do not see that as likely.
DiehardCybercard
10-01-2010, 19:44
I think a more important question to as would be angled kicks or horizontal kicks(rolls)?
I'd imagine rolling would be more accurate and easier to get into the goals, but it may have trouble with the bumps where angled kicks could clear them easily.
rolls! a good point. as with soccer, and golf, and many other sports with balls, SPIN has a great deal of influence on behavior of said balls. SPIN aught to be an item teams look into if they plan to kick and or roll.
martin417
10-01-2010, 19:47
What about a shooter? I think that this might be hard since we can't hold a ball, but I am sure some teams could come up with something!
Where did you get the idea that we can't hold the ball? The way I read the rules, the only prohibition is against "carrying" the ball. In the rules, "carrying" is defined as "POSSESSING a BALL that is not in contact with the FIELD" So as long as the ball stays in contact with the field, you can "hold" it as long as you want. I would recommend being careful climbing ramps while holding though, it would be difficult to keep the ball in contact with the field at all times during a ramp portage...
DiehardCybercard
10-01-2010, 19:50
Where did you get the idea that we can't hold the ball? The way I read the rules, the only prohibition is against "carrying" the ball. In the rules, "carrying" is defined as "POSSESSING a BALL that is not in contact with the FIELD" So as long as the ball the ball stays in contact with the field, you can "hold" it as long as you want. I would recommend being careful climbing ramps while holding though, it would be difficult to keep the ball in contact with the field at all times during a ramp portage...
the BALLS cannot extend more than 3 inches inside the FRAME PERIMITER <r19>
as long as you abide by that you can "hold"
karatekid
10-01-2010, 20:16
I had that same "angle versus flat" idea...and was thinking of there was any way to change the angle of the contact surface on the "kicker"...im pretty stumped right now, but I guaruntee its possible
I think you could accomplish changing the contact piece by having the contact piece have different possible shapes to hit the ball. Then, have a motor rotate the contact piece to change the contact shape.
I had an interesting thought regarding kicking, especially kicking at an angle to clear bumps. The ball is ~9 inches in diameter, and the bumpers extend ~3.5 inches off the frame of the robot starting at 10 inches off the ground. This leaves about one inch of space between the bumper and ball. The bumper extends about 1/3 of the diameter of the ball. This is all well and good, but if you were to add a concave area underneath the bumper to help maintain control of the ball you add an additional 3 inches underneath the bumper. The ball is now 2/3 underneath the bumper and trying to get enough lift under it to clear the bumps may be difficult due to the ball hitting the bumper. What are your thoughts on this?
Nurnburger
10-01-2010, 21:42
Your frame perimeter is supposed to be the part that hits the wall first were you to hit a wall without bumpers on. Therefore, I don't think it would be legal to attach anything onto the underside of the bumpers. I don't know the rule number, but there's one that says you can extend past the frame perimeter to the bumper perimeter for two seconds every two seconds. So if you wanted to attach anything that controls the ball that way, it would have to be attached to the frame and then actuate outward.
Nurnburger, I don't you understood what I was saying. I was talking about two areas. There is the area between the outside of the bumper and the outside of the frame perimeter (~3.5 inches) and an area inside the frame perimeter (up to 3 inches) for a total of ~6.5 inches of penetration of the ball beneath the bumper.
Mtg Ruler
10-01-2010, 21:49
You couldnt add the section under the bumper because that piece would be an extension of your frame, and then the bumpers would have to go on the ends of that. And its been my experience that FRC likes their bumpers the way its in the manual without any modifications/concave sections
anyway, its probably a bit inefficient to try to take the balls over the bumps with you, at least take them through the tunnels
i havent thought much about a kicking mechanism all that much, but my main philosophy in this is that most of the problems have already been solved, so its just a matter of thinking about where the solution could be found. In this case, i bet soccer players could tell you the best ways to kick balls different areas
kjolana1124
11-01-2010, 00:59
I think it's really going to come down to the physics of it all. If you can get a really accurate kicker that can kick from all three zones, that's great. But at the same time, the farther away you are the harder it will be to get accurate. Also, the video did say that if you kick really hard up close it won't go on. So if a team has a really strong kicker and goes for the "forward" position, it may not be as effective as something that's more like a pusher.
I feel this game more than ever will force teams to have to (either intentionally or not), build robots geared for a specific zone. A strong kicker could be good, so long as teams don't over or undershoot.
Nurnburger, I don't you understood what I was saying. I was talking about two areas. There is the area between the outside of the bumper and the outside of the frame perimeter (~3.5 inches) and an area inside the frame perimeter (up to 3 inches) for a total of ~6.5 inches of penetration of the ball beneath the bumper.
Just to clarify, your concern is that having the ball approximately 6.5" within the bumper perimeter when initiating the "kick" could cause the ball to contact some part of the robot chassis and/or bumper before it has exited the bumper perimeter depending on the angle it is kicked?
It seems to me that this is a serious issue for a team that is trying to achieve long distance shots by means of kicking the ball into the air rather than along the carpet.
waialua359
11-01-2010, 04:14
Just to clarify, your concern is that having the ball approximately 6.5" within the bumper perimeter when initiating the "kick" could cause the ball to contact some part of the robot chassis and/or bumper before it has exited the bumper perimeter depending on the angle it is kicked?
It seems to me that this is a serious issue for a team that is trying to achieve long distance shots by means of kicking the ball into the air rather than along the carpet.
My thoughts exactly.
With intial thought, the physics wont allow the ball to catch air over the bump if your bumper is above and in the way of an angled kick.
Perhaps another method of rolling the ball via the carpet over the hump is a possibility.
Having to push balls to score them could be very frustrating, since the balls will need to be pushed up a 6" ramp without rolling off AND your drivers will be unable to see the ball for at least a few feet on approach due to the player station walls. Having to shoot towards yourself to score is going to feel alot different than recent FIRST games.
karatekid
11-01-2010, 11:01
Having to push balls to score them could be very frustrating, since the balls will need to be pushed up a 6" ramp without rolling off AND your drivers will be unable to see the ball for at least a few feet on approach due to the player station walls. Having to shoot towards yourself to score is going to feel alot different than recent FIRST games.
The drivers won't necessarily be blind-if you have the camera mounted on the robot, you could see from the robot's view (it looks like the camera transmits back to the station this year). However, that said, I think kicking will be more effective, especially in accuracy.
=Martin=Taylor=
11-01-2010, 11:48
My thoughts exactly.
With intial thought, the physics wont allow the ball to catch air over the bump if your bumper is above and in the way of an angled kick.
Perhaps another method of rolling the ball via the carpet over the hump is a possibility.
You're forgetting that you can interact with balls for 2 seconds outside the bumper zone.
If you have a kicker, it can leap out of the frame and propel the ball up past the bumpers.
And yes. This does work. We've tried it.
robself705
11-01-2010, 12:22
No you can interact with balls for two seconds outside the FRAME PERIMETER and WITHIN THE BUMPER ZONE for two seconds. You can't go outside the bumper perimeter EVER to interact with the balls
The "concave area" would have to be part of the bumper itself; the rulebook is pretty clear on how to make the bumpers, and there's not a lot of room for change to make a concave area.
Yes, the frame perimeter is the plane behind the plywood backing of the bumpers. With the bumpers needing to be in a 10" to 16" range above the ground, you don't really have the bumpers touching the balls.
waialua359
11-01-2010, 20:50
You're forgetting that you can interact with balls for 2 seconds outside the bumper zone.
If you have a kicker, it can leap out of the frame and propel the ball up past the bumpers.
And yes. This does work. We've tried it.
So you're doing this with your kicker NOT passing the bumper perimeter?
Keep in mind the danger of the "legal" holding, which is the ball must remain in contact with the floor. If you attempt to go over a bump while holding the ball, it is very likely at one point the ball will leave contact with the floor and you will be penalized.
kjolana1124
11-01-2010, 21:46
Yeah, I think it would be impossible to be able to legally posses a ball while going over a bump. It doesn't really seem worth it. If you're going for a pusher you're going to be a forward bot anyway. There's no other way if you want to handle balls.
=Martin=Taylor=
11-01-2010, 21:56
So you're doing this with your kicker NOT passing the bumper perimeter?
Yeah yeah. shoot me. sry
Nurnburger
11-01-2010, 21:59
Nurnburger, I don't you understood what I was saying. I was talking about two areas. There is the area between the outside of the bumper and the outside of the frame perimeter (~3.5 inches) and an area inside the frame perimeter (up to 3 inches) for a total of ~6.5 inches of penetration of the ball beneath the bumper.
I was referring the concave control object you proposed under the bumper, which would be illegal.
I agree that it's possible to have issues hitting your bumpers if you try to pop the ball up. I also have noticed in our testing that lofting the ball at an angle high enough to hit the bumpers would be totally impractical, so I don't think it will prevent bots from kicking the ball over the bumps.
TimelessFate
11-01-2010, 22:01
First of all, tl;dr (Too long; didn't read)
Here is my opinion between the two.
Kicking will provide more force depending on how the robot does it. Just a regular kick, like we would do, can propel the ball pretty hard. It depends on where the kicking device stops too. We all know, when kicking a soccer ball, we can either get it up in the air or launch it across the ground. The problem I see with a kicking device is pulling the kicking device up into its resting position.
The punching method is a lot more simple and works well with the KISS method. A pneumatics piston would do the job easily. The problem I see with this is getting the piston to provide enough force to launch the ball and get it over the bumps on the field.
So you're doing this with your kicker NOT passing the bumper perimeter?
Proper configuration of the swing arm insures swing limited to perimeter of the bumper legally, Glenn. ;)
Think about little league soccer, and design your robot so it would perform well in that environment.
That's the key here.
Ram Raman
11-01-2010, 22:19
Hi i am a team member from team 2876 the devil bots!
i was just wondering what you guys would say about a pusher/ short range kicker... would it be better just not to have a pusher at all?
TimelessFate
11-01-2010, 22:33
A pusher follows the KISS policy very well. If you guys want something simple and easy to make, a pusher is excellent.
(K.I.S.S: Keep it smart and simple)
bhsrobotics1671
12-01-2010, 19:42
does anyone have any design ideas for a kicker?
kapolavery
12-01-2010, 20:00
I think pushing/punching is the closest thing you will get to being able to herd the ball without actually herding; while kicking is sorta like the shooters of last year game, one at a time...that's just my opinion..
CindyLouWho
12-01-2010, 20:00
When it comes to the percentage of who will do what type of shooter, it will most likely be pretty even. Kickers would be more beneficial to people whose strategy would be to station themselves in their opponents section, while pushing would be the way to go for most people who are focused on moving the soccer balls and scoring from a closer distance. Weight is also an important factor, considering that a kicker has more weight vs a pusher.
kapolavery
12-01-2010, 20:06
Or what about like..in pin ball..the swinging parts as a mechanism to hit the balls..
It is my understanding that it is impossible with loads of top spin, to be able to hit the ball straight at the bump and for it to go over. (I Tried it full strength with my foot and the ball just went straight up. that is a 45 degree angle for you).
Thus, being able to kick the ball at an angle will b very important for getting the ball out of the middle. Please note, if the ball hits anywhere before the flat of the bump, it will come back.
Now, making a kicker than is angled and can also change into a pusher by becoming perpendicular to the floor..... that is a lot of moving parts, and potential problems that I do not see many teams (including ours) attempting. Also, the kicker's height could be changed, allowing for contact to be at a higher point, losing power but allowing the ball to go straight.
My $0.02
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