Changing bumper colors [Archive]

GaryVoshol

11-01-2010, 13:37

<R07>:H. BUMPERS must be designed for quick and easy installation and removal, to aid in weighing and inspection (as a guideline, BUMPERS should be removable by one person in less than ten minutes).

But,<T13> At the conclusion of a MATCH, all players shall remain in their assigned locations until the Head Referee issues the “field-reset” signal. Once the Head Referee issues this signal, the 3-minute “match-reset” period will begin. The ARENA must be cleared of ROBOTS from the MATCH just ended, and the ROBOTS and OPERATORS CONSOLES for the following MATCH must be placed in position and ready to start before the expiration of the “match-reset” period. Field Attendants will reset the ARENA elements during this time.

And,<T20> During the elimination rounds, if circumstances require an ALLIANCE to play in back-to-back MATCHES, they will be granted an additional minute of set-up time to reset and allow their ROBOTS to cool down.(all emphasis mine)

Sometimes during the eliminations, alliances switch from being red to blue or vice versa, and have to play back-to-back. You'd better be able to change your bumper colors in 4 minutes or less.

Peter Matteson

11-01-2010, 13:43

I recommed ball lock spring pins. Zero to bumper in 15 seconds.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#pins/=5bx5nm

Jack Jones

11-01-2010, 13:45

<R07>:

But,

And,(all emphasis mine)

Several times during the eliminations, alliances switch from being red to blue or vice versa. You'd better be able to change your bumper colors in 4 minutes or less.

Are you fishing for questions? Such as, what if we build two sets of bumpers, one red - one blue? Would they have to be weighed in together, and weigh less than 20 pounds combined?

Peter Matteson

11-01-2010, 13:51

In the rules <R07> they clearly say you can have 2 sets of bumpers at 20 lbs each. IMO take advantage of the rule and make 2 sets and do a quick change.

Daniel_LaFleur

11-01-2010, 13:54

Are you fishing for questions? Such as, what if we build two sets of bumpers, one red - one blue? Would they have to be weighed in together, and weigh less than 20 pounds combined?

No. He's saying that bumper color will need to be changeable within 4 minutes because of the field reset rules.

iqjavier

11-01-2010, 14:40

These new bumper changing things are going to be pretty neat.

petek

11-01-2010, 14:45

<R12 B>: The BUMPERS may be constructed with a fabric covering of one color (see Rule <R07-F>), and then covered with a removable fabric shroud of the opposite color when appropriate. (snip)
The kickoff video showed the use of a removable bumper cover - see it at 5:36 in this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCzRhLSoGt0).

GaryVoshol

11-01-2010, 14:50

Yes, but <G46> says, "a. Bumper covers must not detach, even unintentionally, from the ROBOT. Violation: PENALTY." That cover in kickoff didn't look like it was robustly attached.

CrazyCarl461

11-01-2010, 15:15

Sometimes during the eliminations, alliances switch from being red to blue or vice versa, and have to play back-to-back.

Elimination rounds are often played back-to-back but they are usually within the same bracket level and alliances never switch colors within the same bracket. The only time this would be an issue is if you were the last group to finish a given bracket level and were in the first group of the next. From my experience, they draw the time out between elimination bracket levels a bit since at least one alliance in the next level would have had at least one round of rest and the other may or may not have.

kjolana1124

11-01-2010, 16:11

This might end up playing a role in driver and/or pit crew selection. Kind of like battery management. I wonder how strongly they're going to be enforcing this rule, seeing as there are often field issues and whatnot anyway

johnr

11-01-2010, 16:24

Peter Matteson

11-01-2010, 16:54

Has your team used this or is it just an idea? If used, how many on, let's say, the long side? How well did it hold up during the season?

We used 6 (six) to hold on all bumpers last year. One at each corner and one on the inside of each short section across the font. Also our bumpers were essentialy continuous fabric around the perimeter to help.

I think no more than 2 a side are necessary and if you use the same one in the corner to hold 2 sides as we did last year 4 total is all you need this year.

kjolana1124

11-01-2010, 17:36

We've used these for a few years now. We tend to use three on each long side.

Kage

11-01-2010, 17:38

These new bumper changing things are going to be pretty neat.

I think it is going to be a pain in the butt...
I dont like the fact that we have to change such a large component of our robot to indicate our team color. I kind of wish that they would do something else for that purpose.

In the past, our teams bumpers have been pretty much permanant...The only times we ever had to take them off was to weigh the robot, and to get it to fit into the crate for shipping...

Now we have to change them almost every match? that just seems a bit rediculous...

I COMPLETELY do not trust bumper covers. They seem too easy to remove, no matter HOW you design them...I dont think that capability is worth the chance of a penalty

waialua359

11-01-2010, 18:14

does anyone know which blue is required for the bumpers?
I called Seattle Fabrics and they have 2 types: Royal and Navy Blue.
Im thinking it doesnt matter, but just wanted to make sure.

When we asked, teams that called earlier didnt know and they themselves have not been told by FIRST if it had to be a specific one.
Dont want to base it from the video and the video alone.

GaryVoshol

11-01-2010, 18:17

<R07>:F. The fabric covering the BUMPERS must be solid red or solid blue in color. Visually, the red or blue must be as close to the corresponding color in the FIRST logo as reasonable (i.e. to a reasonably astute observer, they appear similar). The only markings permitted on the BUMPER fabric cover are the team number (see Rule <R15>).(emphasis mine)

I'd guess the Royal.

waialua359

11-01-2010, 19:23

We ordered the royal blue by chance, however, a bunch of teams called and ordered Navy.
If Seattle Fabrics is the official vendor for the bumper fabric as they have been the last several years, FIRST should let them know, to save time and hastles for other teams.

nitsua60

11-01-2010, 20:10

...If Seattle Fabrics is the official vendor for the bumper fabric as they have been the last several years, FIRST should let them know, to save time and hastles for other teams.

If Seattle Fabrics is the official vendor for the bumper fabric, FIRST should let us know....

waialua359

11-01-2010, 20:23

If Seattle Fabrics is the official vendor for the bumper fabric, FIRST should let us know....

Problem is that FIRST did and it is vague enough that teams didnt know which one to buy.
Anyhow, Phillip from Seattle Fabrics called back and confirmed that teams need to order the Royal Blue one.

iheartrobotics

11-01-2010, 20:53

Robotbug

11-01-2010, 21:33

So navy blue? Correct?
And what are the pros. and cons. of the cover slips vs. individual bumpers for the different colors...

BrendanB

11-01-2010, 21:51

In my opinion creating different color slips to go over the bumpers (as mentioned in the manual) seem easier than creating two separate sets. This enables you to do a fast change, plus you don't have to go through the hassle of creating and testing both sets.

It does seem easier, but do you really want to get penalized because your bumper covers come off? I believe our team will just go with the two sets of bumpers just to be safe and make sure that the bolts are easy to access and we have four people with four wrenches ready to attack those buggers.:p

iheartrobotics

11-01-2010, 22:29

It does seem easier, but do you really want to get penalized because your bumper covers come off? I believe our team will just go with the two sets of bumpers just to be safe and make sure that the bolts are easy to access and we have four people with four wrenches ready to attack those buggers.:p

Haha that's true Brendan. I guess it's better safe than sorry:)

JB987

11-01-2010, 22:49

So navy blue? Correct?
And what are the pros. and cons. of the cover slips vs. individual bumpers for the different colors...

Royal Blue...see Glenn's quote:

Anyhow, Phillip from Seattle Fabrics called back and confirmed that teams need to order the Royal Blue one.

663.keith

12-01-2010, 01:14

Jimmy Nichols

12-01-2010, 06:19

In 2007 and 2008, we did alternating bumper colors to show which alliance we were on. It was fun, and the announcers had a great amount of fun with it. If they are designed right, it isn't that hard to change them, especially if you have one person per bumper. During Quals, there is usually enough time between matches to make the change.

kramarczyk

12-01-2010, 07:25

I recommed ball lock spring pins. Zero to bumper in 15 seconds.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#pins/=5bx5nm

Has your team used this or is it just an idea? If used, how many on, let's say, the long side? How well did it hold up during the season?

We used 6 (six) to hold on all bumpers last year. One at each corner and one on the inside of each short section across the font. Also our bumpers were essentialy continuous fabric around the perimeter to help.

I think no more than 2 a side are necessary and if you use the same one in the corner to hold 2 sides as we did last year 4 total is all you need this year.

We used the same thing on 1189 and 3096's bots last year. In my opinion using any other method is a waste of time. Between the two bots the system had ~88 matches of use and during that time no pin ever was dislodged past the ball lock. Let's face it... stuff doesn't fall up. Of course in Breakaway up could vary from moment to moment, but I'm planning to use these pins again anyway.

The specific part number was McMaster-Carr (p/n 98320A140) (http://www.mcmaster.com/#98320a140/=3dy6cq)
http://www.mcmaster.com/param/images/Pins/98404a365callout.gif
They should also mate with AndyMark's bumper brackets AM-0317 (http://store.andymark.biz/am-0317.html)

jgannon

12-01-2010, 11:14

I dont like the fact that we have to change such a large component of our robot to indicate our team color. I kind of wish that they would do something else for that purpose.
I've come to the conclusion that no one will ever be satisfied with the solution FIRST has to this problem. The spinning lights were too big, the flashing lights were too small, the flags got in the way, and the bumpers are too much to change. I think this is one of the better options, particularly since ball lock pins are legal fasteners.

thefro526

12-01-2010, 11:21

would using zippers be legal as a means of attaching bumper covers? Looking at the rules I can't tell if they would fall under the "hard" or "soft" section of the bumpers themselves and am therefore unsure as to a legal location.

It sounds like a great idea, they would be more than strong enough. I believe the zipper would fall under the hard part of the bumper though. Assuming you designed the bumpers right, this would be legal.

annie1939

12-01-2010, 11:46

Industrial strength velcro should work pretty well for bumper covers. We have used it for side panels of fabric on our robot and it takes some pulling to get it off. Then you could have have one set of bumpers and fabric covers. We often use fabric on our robots. We use the Cordura nylon in areas that we want to deflect sharp arms from other robots or mechanisms that unfold to guide a ball. There is velcro that you sew on and stuff that has an industrial adhesive. Sew the velcro to the cloth and use the adhesive type for sticking it to metal. Go back and rivet the stick on stuff if you want added security. Use velcro as wide as you can for more strength. It won't go anywhere.

We don't have a trailer or large storage area so I would rather do anything NOT to have a duplicate set of bumpers kicking around the pit or workroom. They are difficult to store and take up a lot of space.

Now what would be cool is to get that programmable cloth and program in the color. Anyone have a few thousand extra just for bumpers?

Ann

engunneer

12-01-2010, 12:37

I did work briefly for a company that made thermochromic fabric that was electrically actuated. Too bad it uses alot of power, as that would be pretty cool looking.

Al Skierkiewicz

12-01-2010, 14:16

To keep everyone aware of changes in the rules this year...

<R15> Teams shall display their team number on the BUMPERS in four
locations at approximately 90-degree intervals around the perimeter of the ROBOT. The numerals must be at least 4 inches high, at least in ¾-inch stroke width and in a contrasting color from its background. Team Numbers must be clearly visible from a distance of not less than 100 feet, so that judges, referees, and announcers can easily identify competing ROBOTS.

jspatz1

12-01-2010, 14:27

Alliance color stays the same througout elimination rounds, and qualification rounds are usually never back-to-back for a given robot. There should be ample time to change color with whatever method.

Vikesrock

12-01-2010, 14:43

Alliance color stays the same throughout elimination rounds

False. An upset can often result in switching colors due to the way the colors are determined.

See here (http://www.thebluealliance.net/tbatv/event/2009mn2) for a quick example. The 171-525-2175 alliance starts on Blue Alliance in the quarters, then moves to Red Alliance in the semis after upsetting the #1 alliance.

GaryVoshol

12-01-2010, 16:05

In elimintions, the colors will remain the same only if:

QF
-- 1 beats 8
-- 5 beats 4
-- 2 beats 7
-- 6 beats 3
SF
-- 1 beats 5
-- 6 beats 2

In any other case, at least one alliance will be changing bumper colors

Ed Law

24-01-2010, 15:24

BrendanB

24-01-2010, 15:30

How do teams plan to put the team numbers on the bumpers? What are the different possibilities?

There are a few ways of doing this. The most popular is paint as you can touch it up after the many bumps and scratches it will encounter during matches. Another is sewing on fabric numbers, but those are harder to attach and fix after falling off.

TubaMorg

24-01-2010, 16:17

Our team has, for some reason, been unable to figure out an elegant solution to mounting our bumpers the last few years. I really like this solution, BUT I am unsure how it is implemented (along with the AM brackets) to avoid the 1" hard parts rule. Our understanding is that with the 3/4" plywood, you only have 1/4" left for bolts/brackets etc. which appears to us to eliminate fastening systems other than what is very similar to what is shown in the manual.

We used the same thing on 1189 and 3096's bots last year. In my opinion using any other method is a waste of time. Between the two bots the system had ~88 matches of use and during that time no pin ever was dislodged past the ball lock. Let's face it... stuff doesn't fall up. Of course in Breakaway up could vary from moment to moment, but I'm planning to use these pins again anyway.

The specific part number was McMaster-Carr (p/n 98320A140) (http://www.mcmaster.com/#98320a140/=3dy6cq)
http://www.mcmaster.com/param/images/Pins/98404a365callout.gif
They should also mate with AndyMark's bumper brackets AM-0317 (http://store.andymark.biz/am-0317.html)

Alan Anderson

24-01-2010, 17:33

I am unsure how it is implemented (along with the AM brackets) to avoid the 1" hard parts rule. Our understanding is that with the 3/4" plywood, you only have 1/4" left for bolts/brackets etc. which appears to us to eliminate fastening systems other than what is very similar to what is shown in the manual.

The 1" is measured outward from the frame perimeter. Bumper fasteners can extend into the robot without being subject to that measurement.

TubaMorg

24-01-2010, 18:09

Excellent, thanks Alan. R07.N confirms your point.

Josh Drake

24-01-2010, 18:31

How do teams plan to put the team numbers on the bumpers? What are the different possibilities?

We use a local embroidery/screen print business. They heat press the numbers onto the fabric. We have not had any trouble with them staying on. It looks real good too:)

Ed Law

24-01-2010, 19:07

We use a local embroidery/screen print business. They heat press the numbers onto the fabric. We have not had any trouble with them staying on. It looks real good too:)

Thanks. Is this the same process they use to put numbers and letters on sports uniforms or is it a more expensive method?

Al Skierkiewicz

25-01-2010, 07:39

I have seen numbers painted, screen printed, made out of contrasting fabric, and embroidered depending on the team's sponsor or parent base. In the past, numbers were not required on the bumpers, this is a new rule for 2010.

Don Wright

25-01-2010, 07:57

Thanks. Is this the same process they use to put numbers and letters on sports uniforms or is it a more expensive method?

Ed,

Gail get's ours done at Fast Signs every year and they always turn out great and always stand up to lots of abuse. We bring in the fabric with the outside bumper area marked in chalk and they make a sign right on the material.

Give Gail a call for details.

carbuff2228

25-01-2010, 12:58

Andy Mark sell skirts that you can buy. They velcroe on to youre bumpers. They carry these in red and blue. But they cost 45.00 each

sabruce01

25-01-2010, 15:06

Andy Mark sell skirts that you can buy. They velcroe on to youre bumpers. They carry these in red and blue. But they cost 45.00 each

Just checked with AndyMark and they do not offer a blue set...only red. Since our bumpers are already red, I called and asked if they would be offering blue. I was told not at this time, but if enough people request them, they will get some made.

johnr

25-01-2010, 15:38

After looking at Andymark skirt i'm of the opinion that just sticking velcro onto exposed bumper might not be acceptable.

sanddrag

25-01-2010, 15:44

In the past, numbers were not required on the bumpers, this is a new rule for 2010.Anyone else have a problem with this rule? I see how FIRST wants to standardize things, but a lot of teams have made a lot of LARGE and very nicely done numbers on other places than the bumpers. I don't see the reason for requiring they be in this location. I have a feeling a lot of teams will show up at the regional without numbers, and then Sharpie or tape them on their bumpers, and it will degrade the appearance of the robots.

Vikesrock

25-01-2010, 16:02

Anyone else have a problem with this rule? I see how FIRST wants to standardize things, but a lot of teams have made a lot of LARGE and very nicely done numbers on other places than the bumpers. I don't see the reason for requiring they be in this location. I have a feeling a lot of teams will show up at the regional without numbers, and then Sharpie or tape them on their bumpers, and it will degrade the appearance of the robots.

Requiring the team numbers on the bumpers does not preclude teams from continuing to include numbers in other places on their robot.

I don't understand how teams making numbers with sharpies or tape on their bumpers is any different from taping a sheet of paper on their robot or using Sharpie to right it somewhere else. Teams that don't know to put the numbers on their bumpers aren't reading the manual and likely wouldn't have had numbers anyway.

A standard way to indicate both alliance and team number seems like a great idea to me. Of course we won't really know whether it is better or worse until we see all of the finished robots.

Al Skierkiewicz

25-01-2010, 17:06

Sandy,
That is why I am trying to get the word out now. Help me get the word out, because we all know that questions about the bumpers will come up in about three weeks.

Tristan Lall

25-01-2010, 22:57

I have a feeling a lot of teams will show up at the regional without numbers, and then Sharpie or tape them on their bumpers, and it will degrade the appearance of the robots.Maybe every regional needs a box of white paint markers...for sale to teams who didn't comply during the build season.

Bob Steele

02-02-2010, 19:51

Maybe every regional needs a box of white paint markers...for sale to teams who didn't comply during the build season.

Excellent idea...They could be those extra wide paint markers that are kind of like a SUPER SIZED SHARPIE....Our team will invest in some so that other teams can use them at the regional...

We sew our numbers on... we have always put our numbers on the bumpers... but this would be better for use at the event... we were thinking about having a set of number stencils and white spray paint but I bet these would work better.

We have brought along bumper making materials for the past 2 years...
wood, t-nuts, bolts, extra material... pool noodles...staplers..
We also seem to find someone who needs it...
We like to help...

Great idea!!!