View Full Version : End Game Scoring Rules
eovnu87435ds
11-01-2010, 22:56
Sorry if there was another thread I could not find about this, but for thr 2010 endgame, a robot can be elevated or suspended for a 2 or 3 point score, respectively. While most people can see this as "hanging," by definition, can it also be sitting on the platform that makes the top of the tunnel?
ELEVATED: A ROBOT that is completely above the plane of the PLATFORM and in contact with
the TOWER shall be considered ELEVATED.
The way I see this is that a robot can score as an elevated robot, as long as every single part of it is above the plane.
Also, the video shows and talks about the same kind of action, but then again, there have been some discrepancies in the animations before.
So, is it safe to design a robot that can elevate itself by climbing onto the platform? Or should this be avoided incase of a rule change. It seems intended to me, but then again, that is just me.
Also, if we were to have the ability for another robot to drive ontop of our robot while it is on the platform, would that robot score as suspended?
supermarth64
11-01-2010, 23:14
It can go onto the platform and get 2 points.
If you have another robot drive on top of that robot, it's worth 4 total points because it's not technally "hanging" off of the first robot. <-- Scratch this part
It can go onto the platform and get 2 points.
If you have another robot drive on top of that robot, it's worth 4 total points because it's not technally "hanging" off of the first robot.
Incorrect. As long as the robot on top is touching only the ELEVATED robot, it counts as SUSPENDED and would add 3 points on, totaling 5 points for both robots.
supermarth64
11-01-2010, 23:24
Ok my bad. I better go tell my team then.
Dr Theta
11-01-2010, 23:48
Elevated or Suspended bots are awarded 2 or 3 points respectively. Bots that are suspended are awarded 3 points not a three point bonus. So a robot sitting atop another robot on the platform is awarded 3 points not 5.
Elevated or Suspended bots are awarded 2 or 3 points respectively. Bots that are suspended are awarded 3 points not a three point bonus. So a robot sitting atop another robot on the platform is awarded 3 points not 5.
I guess my statement could be misinterpreted. I meant 5 points total for both robots, and edited my previous post to reflect that.
Have we even figured out yet if being on the platform at the end of the match is even worth points? Without quoting the rules exactly, I remember it saying something that being completely above the platform is worth points. Is being on the platform surface, (meaning sitting on the platform while touching it) being above the platform and qualify for points? I don't think so.
Daniel_LaFleur
12-01-2010, 08:52
Have we even figured out yet if being on the platform at the end of the match is even worth points? Without quoting the rules exactly, I remember it saying something that being completely above the platform is worth points. Is being on the platform surface, (meaning sitting on the platform while touching it) being above the platform and qualify for points? I don't think so.
I agree with your interpretation, and we will need to ask this when the Q&A opens.
From my point of view the entire robot is not 'above' the plane if the wheels are on the plane.
I'm pretty sure sitting on the platform counts as being above the plane. A plane has no depth so you can't be in the plane, and you certainly cannot be below it, so you must be above. Plus they demonstrated this with two robots in the animation, so it seems that this was intended.
No cause remember the animation clearly counted the robot on the platform as counting above the plane, the plane is being on or above the platform; otherwise, why would they count being on the platform as 2 points in the manual?
No cause remember the animation clearly counted the robot on the platform as counting above the plane, the plane is being on or above the platform; otherwise, why would they count being on the platform as 2 points in the manual?
As we have seen in years past, the only rule interpretation is the game manual with its updates. The game animation and the demonstration with Deab, Woody and Dave are NOT the rules. There may be a slip up. I do agree though we need some clearer interpretation.
My idea on this is that they say the robot needs to be completely above the plane of the platform, but if your robot is sitting on the platform it is at the plane not completely above it.....
We will see what FIRST Says when they open the forum board.
No what I meant was that the manual even states that if a robot is on the platform then they receive 2 points
No what I meant was that the manual even states that if a robot is on the platform then they receive 2 points
Where does it say this? Under Scoring 7.3.3 of the game manual, I see 3 ways to score.
1. Score balls in goals = 1 point
2. Elevated Robot = 2 points
3. Suspended Robot = 3 points
I am still under the assumption that elevated means above the platform (ie not touching it). No where does it say if a robot is on the platform, then it gets points.
ELEVATED: A ROBOT that is completely above the plane of the PLATFORM and in contact with the TOWER shall be considered ELEVATED.
if you are on TOP of the platform you are therefore over the plane of the platform
CrazyCarl461
12-01-2010, 10:29
if you are on TOP of the platform you are therefore over the plane of the platform
I agree with this interpretation and I think you will find that this is what the GDC intended. A plane is a feature with zero thickness. The only way to not be above it is to either be below it or intersecting it. Since the plane is exactly lined up with the surface of the platform, the only way to intersect it would be to intersect the plastic itself.
I agree with this interpretation and I think you will find that this is what the GDC intended. A plane is a feature with zero thickness. The only way to not be above it is to either be below it or intersecting it. Since the plane is exactly lined up with the surface of the platform, the only way to intersect it would be to intersect the plastic itself.
I do find it a little odd that they would design a field with a platform that has no purpose for scoring what so ever. I would, however like to see a clarification on this topic. I would just hate to design a robot feature (like be able to climb on to the platform) that could not be used due to a rule.
Daniel_LaFleur
12-01-2010, 10:41
ELEVATED: A ROBOT that is completely above the plane of the PLATFORM and in contact with the TOWER shall be considered ELEVATED.
if you are on TOP of the platform you are therefore over the plane of the platform
While I believe this is the way that the GDC will interpret this, They could determine that 'ON' is not 'above' the plane.
We'll just have to wait 'til tomorrow.
CrazyCarl461
12-01-2010, 10:57
People that are here looking for an absolute clarification obviously know they won't be able to get it here. Luckily it is still early in the season so you should feel free to toss around platform bot ideas without worrying about too much of a commitment. The GDC is going to rule that being on the platform is also being above it (unless they were bad at geometry in high school), but.. don't take my word for it - ask. You will know for sure very soon and will already have your snazzy designs ready :)
engunneer
12-01-2010, 12:42
I think the GDC intended for a 'platform sitter' to be counted as elevated. IT's no small task. The Q&A will confirm this in a few days.
For those bringing up the animation, they also showed a robot retreating into the tunnel at the endgame, but that isn't worth anything (Though it would be cool if that was a 1 point bonus, as long as you are completely inside, which isn't possible for a full 28x38 robot)
Expect that in any case this is going to be something of importance (as in that it will be reworded or redefined) because it is generally confusing of what it means. A plane is something with no thickness so if something is in contact with the top of the plane, it is above the plane in theory. This topic is a hot one, and expect that either it has by now have a more defined reasoning or that it is more along the lines of going towards the idea that being on the platform is a way to score. It may just be that you have to be in contact with one of the steel columns to be counted as elevated.
hotapay42
13-01-2010, 20:41
hey guess what?
at an atomic level, the atoms/molecules of rubber/plastic/whatever repel each other, so as to not fuse and combine with whatever they touch
therefore, it IS above the platform, so you should calm down about it and get on with your robot
p.s. this goes for all molecules; body parts too: i typed all of this without actually touching the keyboard. ponder that!
rsegrest
14-01-2010, 10:37
Ok, not about elevating but is about end game scoring and before you say 'look in the manual' we already have...four times...so here's the question (which I have also posted at the FIRST forums)...
In the animation Dave says that during the final 20 seconds the robots..."will move toward their platform"...and in the animation the bots ALL move to their platforms, in the game manual the only reference to scoring in the final 20 seconds is regarding elevation of the bots...SO
Can bots score goals with the balls during the final 20 seconds of the game?
Ok, not about elevating but is about end game scoring and before you say 'look in the manual' we already have...four times...so here's the question (which I have also posted at the FIRST forums)...
In the animation Dave says that during the final 20 seconds the robots..."will move toward their platform"...and in the animation the bots ALL move to their platforms, in the game manual the only reference to scoring in the final 20 seconds is regarding elevation of the bots...SO
Can bots score goals with the balls during the final 20 seconds of the game?
There is nothing whatsoever in the rules restricting robot motion in the Finale, aside from not being able to touch the opponent's tower and the rule on only one robot in the opponent's zone. Whether you think it's more advantageous to hang or to score is up to you.
Chris is me
14-01-2010, 12:09
hey guess what?
at an atomic level, the atoms/molecules of rubber/plastic/whatever repel each other, so as to not fuse and combine with whatever they touch
therefore, it IS above the platform, so you should calm your AIDS about it and get on with your robot
p.s. this goes for all molecules; body parts too: i typed all of this without actually touching the keyboard. ponder that!
All sarcasm aside... Traditionally, "not touching" in FRC has always been measured with the "sheet of paper test". If a sheet of paper can be slid between the two parts not touching, then they are not in contact.
Please don't compare confusion and stress with life threatening diseases.
And, to add to what Chris is saying, the official definition is "above the plane". The question is, is a robot that is on top of the platform above the plane? I can think of a situation (admittedly, it's kind of improbable) where it could be ruled to not be, despite having nothing hanging down, if the GDC doesn't come out and say that being on top of the platform is above the plane.
The situation I'm thinking of? The platform deforms, and a robot's wheels wind up in a dip that goes below the normal level. Like I say, that's improbable, but it could happen.
The idea of the "is touching the base is on top of the base" (base being evelated platform) is still under fire weither it is legal or not. I have been told multiple times that "I should not trust what the video says" although that video will be shown to many spectators that may think that being on the elevated platform is above. Most likely the rule will be reworded, expectedly towards the idea that being on the platform is considered above if your are touching a steel column (column part may not be neccesary). As far as I am aware, we are trying to get a response from the Q&A to see weither or not that is legal. Hope to have some more info later if it is not brought up on here by someone else.
rsegrest
15-01-2010, 09:38
Thanks for the reply. Seems you're on the same page as the GDC:
"Today, 12:26 AM
GDC
Game Design Committee Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,991
Re: Can goals be scored during finale
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There is no rule that would prohibit ROBOTS from scoring during the FINALE PERIOD. "
just for clarification, if you were to want to still score as your opponents attempted to hang or do whatever they wanted in the last 20 seconds, are you still allowed in their zone to retreive balls?
just for clarification, if you were to want to still score as your opponents attempted to hang or do whatever they wanted in the last 20 seconds, are you still allowed in their zone to retreive balls?
Provided that you go in there with only one robot and don't touch the tower, I don't see anything against it.
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