Soccer Ball Sold Out

[topgun]

I laughed during the Kickoff when they announced the game piece was going to be a standard size 5 soccer ball remembering the orbit ball fiasco from last year.

I didn't think much about the soccer ball until I talked to someone who plays a lot of soccer and he suggested that I get at least one because soccer balls are a little different, some shinier, slicker, stitched a little thicker, etc.

So I call up DTI Soccer to get a ball. Turns out they already were sold out of the HS300s Pearl White, then the Ice Blue. Now they are substituting HS500s, apparently same texture, different graphic, same price (their gesture to us late callers).

He said they only had 1000 balls in stock at the kickoff and that they won't be getting any more HS300 balls in before the competitions. They also only have distribution through their single storefront/website.

I don't know if the visioning will matter much between the Pearl White or the Ice Blue. I don't know if the ball characteristics will matter much in the dynamics of the mechanisms and it probably won't matter, but....

Couldn't FIRST have chosen a standard ball from a big manufacturer that has multiple retail distribution points throughout the US and would also have a greater chance of distribution for our International teams?

Just wondering...

- T

[viperred396]

haha never would i have thought they would have sold out... also just hope they don't go out of business like the company did last year :P

[Bob Steele]

I think I agree with you. I have played soccer my whole life... and there is definitely a difference between balls....they will react differently...

How differently ?? I don't know...
It would be nice to actually have one of the game balls...
This is expecially true when you consider that there were no playing pieces (balls) in the kit.

The kits for the veteran teams were really empty this year. It was almost possible to put everything in one crate... (other than the new 'laptop' and the kitbot...)

Pretty sparse kit....

By the way.... spare cRios./modules can be purchased from National Instruments now...
We ordered one yesterday (Monday Jan 11) $750.

Good luck to all

[Racer26]

*sigh*

FIRST tries to come up with a game piece that we can't saturate the market for, and still fails. I wonder what little league soccer is going to do come april or so when they start up again :P

[MrForbes]

One solution is to buy several different types of soccer balls (or have students bring theirs) and make your robot so it will work the same with all of them.

[Doug G]

It was fun to talk to the rep from DTI yesterday. Apparantly we were the first to place an online order with them on Saturday, so he called and asked what was going on. Why is everyone ordering these balls on the same day? At first he thought it was some practical joke. I mean, how often does a company sell all of its product in a matter of hours ... by surprise. Anyhow, they (the rep at least) was completely unaware their ball was being used for this competition.

[Josh Goodman]

At least there aren't over 40 Soccer balls for the game this year.....

[Akash Rastogi]

Dang I knew I should have invested in DTI on Saturday. :rolleyes:

[Brandon Holley]

I mean, how often does a company sell all of its product in a matter of hours ... by surprise. Anyhow, they (the rep at least) was completely unaware their ball was being used for this competition.

If this is true, I find it to unacceptable. The orbit fall fiasco last year was BAD, so I would think FIRST would take as many measures as possible to avoid that in the future. I definitely like the soccer ball as a game piece, but as others have said here, not all of them react the same. I would think that choosing this companies ball as THE ball of the 2010 FRC game would warrant a phone call to let them know...

-Brando

[BrendanB]

If this is true, I find it to unacceptable. The orbit fall fiasco last year was BAD, so I would think FIRST would take as many measures as possible to avoid that in the future. I definitely like the soccer ball as a game piece, but as others have said here, not all of them react the same. I would think that choosing this companies ball as THE ball of the 2010 FRC game would warrant a phone call to let them know...

-Brando

I heard through a person from FIRST that it is the fault of a couple of people who feel like they should keep it under wraps for fear that it will get out into the FIRST community. It is annoying, especially for teams because FIRST already has the ones they need, but we are left hanging with out of stock suppliers scratching their heads waiting for someone to pop out and say, "January fool"!

Oh well, at least it is an item available to most every team, just not an exact copy.:o

[TD912]

I think that choosing this companies ball as THE ball of the 2010 FRC game would warrant a phone call to let them know...

-Brando

Depends on how early they would let them know. The more people FIRST tells about their game, the more likely details would leak out to the general public early.

[jamie_1930]

My suggestion would be to make sure you can quickly adapt your robot to match different balls. For instance have all your programming variables organized so that when you get to competition you can go to the practice field and change your variables (if any matter to the trajectory of the ball) to best suit the game balls from DTI. It would be good practice, if you choose to do this, to have team members bring in their own soccer balls from home and have the programmers practice adapting to different balls based, to speed up the proccess at competition.

[StevenB]

My suggestion would be to make sure you can quickly adapt your robot to match different balls. For instance have all your programming variables organized so that when you get to competition you can go to the practice field and change your variables (if any matter to the trajectory of the ball) to best suit the game balls from DTI.
That's easy to say, but soccer ball dynamics aren't like camera calibration - I don't expect to have a ball stickiness coefficient in my code. ;) I expect that many of the problems won't be able to be solved in software (yes, there are problems us software guys can't fix), such as the balls sticking in places rather than sliding or rolling.

That said, the suggestion to test your robot with a variety of balls is a good one. Odds are that even the official balls will behave a little different in the off-season than at regionals.

[Brandon Holley]

I heard through a person from FIRST that it is the fault of a couple of people who feel like they should keep it under wraps for fear that it will get out into the FIRST community. It is annoying, especially for teams because FIRST already has the ones they need, but we are left hanging with out of stock suppliers scratching their heads waiting for someone to pop out and say, "January fool"!

Oh well, at least it is an item available to most every team, just not an exact copy.:o

Depends on how early they would let them know. The more people FIRST tells about their game, the more likely details would leak out to the general public early.

My suggestion would be to make sure you can quickly adapt your robot to match different balls. For instance have all your programming variables organized so that when you get to competition you can go to the practice field and change your variables (if any matter to the trajectory of the ball) to best suit the game balls from DTI. It would be good practice, if you choose to do this, to have team members bring in their own soccer balls from home and have the programmers practice adapting to different balls based, to speed up the proccess at competition.


Guys, I'm right there with you in agreement with FIRST keeping their games under wraps. They absolutely need to take into account the secrecy of the game. That being said, I feel this is an issue that can be handled rather simply when communicating with a company. It is a large commitment (think about the amount of FRC teams that need soccer balls now). Why should I have to design my robot to work with a bunch of different balls when I know exactly which one will be used in competition? It seems to me like this is a problem that can be handled better.

[dtengineering]

I'll begin this with my standard preface that I've got a lot of respect for the GDC and the job they do, and the people at FIRST HQ for growing FIRST in a time of restraint. It looks like they've created a good game this year, and by and large I strongly approve of the job they do.

BUT... if it is indeed the case that the soccer balls are now sold out, this is entirely inexcusable. Last year... the first time... was a forgivable mistake. But to source game pieces made of unobtainium for two years in a row is unacceptable.

They didn't need to contact DTI and say "We're FIRST robotics and want to use your pieces in a top secret game", they merely needed to ask, "Are you capable of supplying several thousand HS300 soccer balls in January?" (Perhaps this was asked... I don't know...)

If not... on to the next supplier.

This lack of game pieces is particularly egregious as I tried to order two soccer balls on Sunday, but couldn't because I'M FROM CANADA. DTI's website offers no option other than to be from the United States. So I tried phoning their 1-800 number this week... but the 1-800 number... the only prominent phone number on their site is "NOT AVAILABLE IN YOUR AREA".

So now I've e-mailed them, but so far my only response has been an automated message asking me to confirm that the message I sent wasn't spam.

So based on my experience, and what I read here, it was IMPOSSIBLE for a team outside the USA to purchase a regulation soccer ball unless they placed a phone order on Saturday afternoon. Sounds like we're in good company with many American teams... but hey... at least you guys had a chance!

Yeah... we can buy soccer balls in Canada (on the shelf, under the hockey pucks)... and if we had ONE... just ONE of the originals, we could probably find a pretty close match in terms of surface and stitching.

But we don't, and... from the sounds of it won't... get our hands on one of the game pieces until March 25.

It might not make a difference, and I know FIRST did everything they could to come through for us last year with the moon rocks... and they might be able to pull something off this year.... but really... how cheap are they getting at FRC headquarters to leave an important $10 piece out of a KoP that costs several thousand dollars?

Sheesh...

Like I say, I like the game, and if FIRST did check for availability and DTI lied to them, then my apologies. But I make no apologies for saying this wouldn't even be perceived as a problem if they'd put just ONE regulation ball in every KoP. I'd happily trade the KoP wheels... especially the rather useless slick ones... for one regulation soccer ball.

Jason

[indieFan]

Wait a second. You all mean to tell me that you expect to have a specific soccer ball available to you?

Isn't this just another part of the engineering problem? At my company, we have to begin building things before we have everything in house due to contract issues. We have to begin building things before we have test benches set up. We are a development area, so we're constantly looking for the right material for the right job.

And, in my opinion, if you are designing for a single specific soccer ball, you are being too narrow minded in your design. The manual even states that the "...color and surface may vary." Are you going to deflate your ball to various pressures during testing? Are you going to scuff parts of the ball up during testing? While you could, you probably won't.

Just expand your design to cover a range of possibilities and you'll be fine. If required, test one of the smooth, rubber, non-stitched soccer balls like the ones used in Phys. Ed. and one that is a quality competition, stitched soccer ball. If both work, you're design is robust enough to handle any type of soccer ball thrown at it.

Otherwise, good luck finding one in an auction on ebay or through nextag.

indieFan

[sanddrag]

But I make no apologies for saying this wouldn't even be perceived as a problem if they'd put just ONE regulation ball in every KoP. I'd happily trade the KoP wheels... especially the rather useless slick ones... for one regulation soccer ball.

JasonJason, I couldn't agree more. How do we make the best possible design we can, without having any reference whatsoever as to the specifics of the game piece we are playing with. It is not in the kit, it is not in any store, and now, we cannot even get one, even just ONE! And how do we know that this HS500 ball is really the same, without ever having seen an HS300?

[Thermal]

Wait a second. You all mean to tell me that you expect to have a specific soccer ball available to you?

Isn't this just another part of the engineering problem? At my company, we have to begin building things before we have everything in house due to contract issues. We have to begin building things before we have test benches set up. We are a development area, so we're constantly looking for the right material for the right job.

And, in my opinion, if you are designing for a single specific soccer ball, you are being too narrow minded in your design. The manual even states that the "...color and surface may vary." Are you going to deflate your ball to various pressures during testing? Are you going to scuff parts of the ball up during testing? While you could, you probably won't.

Just expand your design to cover a range of possibilities and you'll be fine. If required, test one of the smooth, rubber, non-stitched soccer balls like the ones used in Phys. Ed. and one that is a quality competition, stitched soccer ball. If both work, you're design is robust enough to handle any type of soccer ball thrown at it.

Otherwise, good luck finding one in an auction on ebay or through nextag.

indieFan

The issue is with the camera system, a camera can have trouble picking up different colors or reflection patterns

[waialua359]

Wait a second. You all mean to tell me that you expect to have a specific soccer ball available to you?

Isn't this just another part of the engineering problem? At my company, we have to begin building things before we have everything in house due to contract issues. We have to begin building things before we have test benches set up. We are a development area, so we're constantly looking for the right material for the right job.

And, in my opinion, if you are designing for a single specific soccer ball, you are being too narrow minded in your design. The manual even states that the "...color and surface may vary." Are you going to deflate your ball to various pressures during testing? Are you going to scuff parts of the ball up during testing? While you could, you probably won't.

Just expand your design to cover a range of possibilities and you'll be fine. If required, test one of the smooth, rubber, non-stitched soccer balls like the ones used in Phys. Ed. and one that is a quality competition, stitched soccer ball. If both work, you're design is robust enough to handle any type of soccer ball thrown at it.

Otherwise, good luck finding one in an auction on ebay or through nextag.

indieFan

I think you're missing the point.

I look at it like ordering car parts. Nothing better than genuine.
Also, the fact that some teams got it and others have a close imitation (or not) is a problem.
I'm sure everyone involved at FIRST try their best to avoid possible issues during build season, but still, the issue should've been addressed to avoid the same thing happening in back to back years.

[Fred Sayre]

Hopefully someone who has the exact ball can compare it to some more widely available balls and post to let everyone know. Our team asked all of the kids to bring one from home and we are testing with all of them until we get a chance at a regulation one. So far there has been quite a bit of performance difference between balls, and getting the right pressure is pretty important.

[jsasaki]

It would have been nice if FIRST supplied us with at least 1 ball in the KOP like they did with the orbit balls last year.

[Tristan Lall]

Wait a second. You all mean to tell me that you expect to have a specific soccer ball available to you?

Isn't this just another part of the engineering problem?Let's run with that question: is it supposed to be part of the engineering problem? If that was the idea, why wouldn't FIRST have just said so in the manual, instead of risking the wrath of the teams (again)? Also, FIRST rightly goes to a lot of trouble to publish specifics about the rest of the field—what indication do we have that they intended to make the balls' characteristics difficult to ascertain (by choosing a supplier with limited stock)? And if it was intentional, it would make for a ridiculous policy—isn't the whole point of using soccer balls to take advantage of their ubiquity? (You stand a very good chance of finding a substitute provided that you can get one of the official balls as a basis for comparison.)

And, in my opinion, if you are designing for a single specific soccer ball, you are being too narrow minded in your design. The manual even states that the "...color and surface may vary." Are you going to deflate your ball to various pressures during testing? Are you going to scuff parts of the ball up during testing? While you could, you probably won't.

Just expand your design to cover a range of possibilities and you'll be fine. If required, test one of the smooth, rubber, non-stitched soccer balls like the ones used in Phys. Ed. and one that is a quality competition, stitched soccer ball. If both work, you're design is robust enough to handle any type of soccer ball thrown at it.What's the point of testing with vastly dissimilar materials? On the playing field, you're just as likely to encounter a bowling ball as a one-piece rubber soccer ball. Can you even be sure that any of the data you collect with a rubber ball is useful?

If all you've got are balls of the wrong type, then feel free to make use of them, fully cognizant of their limitations—but the whole point of this exercise is to find the ones that FIRST specified, in order to optimize the design for real-world operation.

And yes, real-world operation certainly involves scuffed, dirty and/or semi-inflated balls. I would definitely expect to see some of those on the real field, so if I was interested in my design's performance under those conditions, of course I would test them. (Although, for some designs, it might be sufficient to presume that it just won't work for those balls, and ignore the problem.)

[dtengineering]

Wait a second. You all mean to tell me that you expect to have a specific soccer ball available to you?



Yes... if a specific soccer ball is defined in the rules and was available to other teams, then it should be available to my team. Check out the rules of the game surrounding what defines a vendor, and a COTS part and it would be reasonable to assume that FIRST would follow their own rules in regard to game pieces.

I don't know whether having access to an HS300 would make our team more competitive or not, but I do know that covering up for a repeated lack of foresight on behalf of the game designers -- who otherwise appear to have done an excellent job this year, as usual -- is not what I define as "part of the engineering challenge". If it were intended to be part of the engineering challenge, then NO ONE should have had access to the offical game piece. I'm not quite sure why guessing at what the real ball might be like should be an interesting engineering challenge for my team, but not for other teams.

And yes, I was planning on buying two balls and testing them at the different circumferences as specified in the game manual, and I can guarantee that surface scuffing will occur during testing. I try to teach the students to be thorough, and account for and control that which can be accounted for and controlled.

Like I say... I don't know that having some teams have access to the official ball while most others do not will be of any real advantage, but I do know that having one of the balls is obviously perceived as an advantage by many, many teams. That's why the part spec was put in the manual, and thats why they're all gone!

I also know that this problem could have been solved by putting one, ten dollar soccer ball into each KoP. Given the orbit ball fiasco from last year, I am surprised to see the same problem showing up again.

Can we work around it? Yeah... Will it be a big deal when the season is all over? Probably not. Am I going to roll up in a coma for the next six weeks muttering "HS300... HS300...", no. Is this a good game regardless of which soccer ball we use... yeah. But could this whole "sold out" mess and perception of inequity (if not actual inequity) have been avoided?

You bet.

Jason

[google]

I think I agree with you. I have played soccer my whole life... and there is definitely a difference between balls....they will react differently...

How differently ?? I don't know...


I too have played soccer almost from birth and there is definitely a difference between the balls, some have different patch formations, or even have different stitching, but there are two main concerns, the first would be the exterior texture, if you have a more glossy ball then I believe that it would actually come off your foot (or the robot mechanism in this case) slower, probably holding on a little bit tighter because the exterior has more grip and would stick more. The other big problem is the strength of the ball, how well it holds the air and how much force it takes to turn the ball from a spherical shape into an oblong one, basically what effect your robot would have on the structural integrity of the ball.
Also they all have different aerodynamics.

I think all of that is true and makes sense, but please correct me if I am wrong.

And it is kinda weird that FIRST keeps using small vendors, the only good reason I can think of is that there is less chance of the vendor leaking info.

[rwood359]

It was fun to talk to the rep from DTI yesterday. Apparantly we were the first to place an online order with them on Saturday, so he called and asked what was going on. Why is everyone ordering these balls on the same day? At first he thought it was some practical joke. I mean, how often does a company sell all of its product in a matter of hours ... by surprise. Anyhow, they (the rep at least) was completely unaware their ball was being used for this competition.
The simple solution to information control is a non-disclosure agreement between FIRST and the supplier. The same type of agreement that FIRST requires the beta teams to sign before getting the beta systems.

[GaryVoshol]

So this company, which sells out of their entire stock of 1000 balls in one weekend, didn't notice when they got a single order of some 1000 balls to be shipped to NH? (50 events, 20 balls each = 1000 balls. Is 20 even enough?)

I'm sorry, I think this is inexcusable negligence on FIRST's part. Based on further information provided below, I strike that comment. But it appears they didn't make the supplier aware of the magnitude of orders they might expect.

They probably asked for a quote of 1000 balls and took a good price, without asking how many balls would be left in stock after their order was placed.

[ttldomination]

So this company, which sells out of their entire stock of 1000 balls in one weekend, didn't notice when they got a single order of some 1000 balls to be shipped to NH? (50 events, 20 balls each = 1000 balls. Is 20 even enough?)



Well,
1) I don't even think 1000 is enough cause you have one field, a practice field, and then the usual wear and tear replacements.

2) You can't really blame the company. The company probably has sales of 100 balls of that type in a month, and they weren't expecting to sell all 1000 of their stock. And even then, after a month, the company is just going to go back to selling the usual 100 balls per month, so without prior knowledge, there is no way the company could've prepared for this.

[Tetraman]

I have made the determination that this is now the only problem with the entire Breakaway game and senerio.

I completely agree - this is inexcusable considering it happened last year at an even much larger scale. However, I'm always inclined to forgive FIRST as they usually realize the problem and make arrangemets to fix it.

[ayeckley]

The simple solution to information control is a non-disclosure agreement between FIRST and the supplier.

Seconded. This is very common practice in the engineering world when you need to have discussions with vendors, potential teammates, etc. without wanting the whole world to know what you are up to. The penalty for violating the terms of the NDA is a lawsuit ($), so breaches of contract are really very rare. Perhaps soccer ball distributors aren't used to establishing NDAs with potential customers, but the FIRST organization surely is. I'm guessing that it's a conscious decision on their part -- but I'm not sure what their reasoning is.

[hschase]

Well hopefully we will see two things out of this:

1) a lesson learned for distribution

2) Co-opertition. As a mentor I hope that teams that were able to order balls this weekend and ordered enough for the entire field setup will offer some of those to other teams so hopefully teams have the opportunity to appropriately test their machines. Yes it is a competition, but its also about remembering what the intent is: to learn.

I am checking to see if our team got an order in on Saturday, to see if we will be able to help out some other teams, and I hope other teams do as well.

Oh and as for the numbers count on how many balls FIRST has, I would guess that yes they have 1000 that they ordered for the competition, but you need to remember, there are not 50 field setups that exist, there might be say 10 or 20 at most, week after week for the competitions FIRST reuses everything. Each site does not get their own pristine field. everything travels in groups and when everything gets packed on the truck to goto the next regional, they make sure they have all the pieces and parts they need or will get those items to the next event in a separate shipment from the FIRST office.

[BrendanB]

Guys, I'm right there with you in agreement with FIRST keeping their games under wraps. They absolutely need to take into account the secrecy of the game. That being said, I feel this is an issue that can be handled rather simply when communicating with a company. It is a large commitment (think about the amount of FRC teams that need soccer balls now). Why should I have to design my robot to work with a bunch of different balls when I know exactly which one will be used in competition? It seems to me like this is a problem that can be handled better.

Brandon, I completely agree with you, FIRST needs to tell suppliers in advance that a large order will becoming in along with a large demand come the beginning of the year. Its not fair to the teams or the company who is being left in the dark.

Also, being engineers, the game design commitee probably overlooked the fact that different balls perform differently when kicked and moved. I guess this will be another engineer mishap to over come like indiefan said. Let's look on the bright side though, at least soccer balls aren't sold out worldwide yet!;)

[MrForbes]

I wonder how inflation will vary among balls during a competition, and between competitions. And I wonder if this difference will be at least as great as the differences between different brand/models of balls.

Perhaps the sky isn't falling? I guess we'll find out when teams post videos showing their magic device handling and shooting different balls, and spec balls at different inflation.

[IndySam]

I absolutely agree that FIRST has made a mistake of not providing each team a ball in the KOP and choosing such a limited availability ball.


Having said that I will also say that if you spend too much time building your design to an exact type and size of ball you will be doing your team a great disservice. FIRST teams are hard on game elements and reset crews don't have the time to spend checking inflation levels of balls. You need to design your mechanism to work with balls that are in many conditions because that's what you will be dealing with on the field, especially in later regionals.

[rfolea]

I'll begin this with my standard preface that

BUT... if it is indeed the case that the soccer balls are now sold out, this is entirely inexcusable. Last year... the first time... was a forgivable mistake. But to source game pieces made of unobtainium for two years in a row is unacceptable.

Jason

"Well hopefully we will see two things out of this:
1) a lesson learned for distribution"

Why does everyone refer to last year as "the First Time?" Does no one remember the poof ball fiasco - that company was totally blind sided. Said they could have easily been prepared if someone had just mentioned it was coming ...

Stupid Question - I can't find the spec's for the ball in the documentation - can someone point me towards it? Is it the HS300 everyone is referring to?

[MrForbes]

As usual, game piece specs are in Section 6 of the manual (ARENA)

[dtengineering]

Okay... just spoke to a DTI rep by phone. They called, based on my (now authenticated as non-spam) e-mail that I mentioned in an earlier post.

They were very friendly and helpful.

They offered a soccer ball with similar stitching and surface finish to the HS300 for the same price.

They also mentioned that the HS300 does have a slightly different finish than a standard size 5 ball that you might buy "off the shelf", so I feel it is worthwhile buying a couple of close matches.

And they certainly CAN ship to Canada.

I asked if they had been expecting a rush on soccer balls... they had been told to expect an increase in orders, and thought they were prepared... but weren't.

So FIRST did make an effort to avoid this situation... just an insufficient one.

Had we received ONE ball in our KoP we could have gone to a local store, found a similar, suitable match, saved money on shipping and brokerage, and been 100% happy with the game. Instead of, like 98 or 99% happy. (Okay... I wouldn't have been 100% happy with the new qualifying algorithm, but the game does seem to be really, really good so far.)

And on a bright side of dealing with what is actually a fairly local supplier (I was IN Seattle on Saturday to pick up the KoP!), I was able to invite the DTI folks to come out to Key Arena on March 25-27 and see what all the fuss is about.

Jason

[Bob Steele]

it was great to see you here by the way!! We are looking forward to having you on the field!!

It is pretty interesting that being in Seattle and having a local supplier doesn't help much when they don't have anything to give you.

I do applaud DTI for coming up with a similar ball for the same price.
I ordered 3 of them....

when they come anyone in the area is welcome to borrow one...(with the caveat that they ARE the substitue version...and not the real thing.)
We are going to have to have a bunch more for the pre-ship on field play time...
So will be very interested to find out if anyone out there gets a real one and finds an acceptable subsitute (s) in the market place.
****************
Let's fix this.... the FIRST community just needs to work together ...
and we will adapt...we will overcome...we will improvise...
Move ahead.... use our time in a positive fashion...

Ok who is getting real game balls that can report back to us about suitable substitutes?

thanks

Good luck and see you at the competition...!!!

[Racer26]

"Well hopefully we will see two things out of this:
1) a lesson learned for distribution"

Why does everyone refer to last year as "the First Time?" Does no one remember the poof ball fiasco - that company was totally blind sided. Said they could have easily been prepared if someone had just mentioned it was coming ...

Stupid Question - I can't find the spec's for the ball in the documentation - can someone point me towards it? Is it the HS300 everyone is referring to?

Agreed. Last year was by no means the first time.

2010: DTI Soccer Balls are unobtainium, not going back into production till the competitions have started
2009: Orbit balls became unobtainium, Blip Toys wasnt going to manufacture more till after competitions started
2008: Trackballs were DIFFICULT to obtain, but were not so bad because there were so few in the game, and were expensive.
2007: The tubes were not easy to get until after the games were done.
2006: The poof ball manufacturer was blindsided, they got really hard to get
2005: Used game pieces teams could make themselves.
2004: The 5 pt balls became hard to get the exact model, luckily, lots of similar 14" rubber balls exist in high school gymnasiums
2003: The sterilite bins used were unobtainium for months after the competitions.

Thats as far back as i've been involved... FIRST game pieces becoming unobtainium by the second week of January happens regularly. FIRST needs to warn the manufacturers adequately.

[TheOtherGuy]

So perhaps teams that get the official ball early can go to several stores and provide a list of balls with similar qualities? Given this is an engineering competition, maybe the large amount of engineers/aspiring-engineers can actually solve this problem...

[David Brinza]

Maybe something has changed at DTI Sports!

Their website indicates that they are currently selling DTI HS300 Club (http://dtisoccer.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=17) size 5, white soccer balls, the Official Breakaway game piece!

I just ordered two. I am now 99.44% happy (I would be completely happy if we got a ball with the KOP).

[DtD]

Honestly I don't know what the fuss is about. A socer ball is a socer ball. Our team didn't even consider getting an official ball, we are going to design our robot to use the misc size 5 soccer balls we all have lying around our houses.

I can understand the issue with Lunacy, where the game pieces were very unique and diffrent some anything else.

~DtD

[Racer26]

Maybe something has changed at DTI Sports!

Their website indicates that they are currently selling DTI HS300 Club (http://dtisoccer.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=17) size 5, white soccer balls, the Official Breakaway game piece!

I just ordered two. I am now 99.44% happy (I would be completely happy if we got a ball with the KOP).

Perhaps DTI woke up and said wait a minute, theres ~2000 teams who probably each want about 2 balls, we can make a lot of money here. Hey boys, put those balls back into production NOW.

[BrendanB]

Perhaps DTI woke up and said wait a minute, theres ~2000 teams who probably each want about 2 balls, we can make a lot of money here. Hey boys, put those balls back into production NOW.

Most likely because now in the product details section they mention that it is the official game piece of the 2010 robotics competition Breakaway.

Thank you DTI for helping out in the ways you can at the moment, it is appreciated!:]

[Vikesrock]

Perhaps DTI woke up and said wait a minute, theres ~2000 teams who probably each want about 2 balls, we can make a lot of money here. Hey boys, put those balls back into production NOW.

Or maybe they have an inventory/ordering system that is not particularly robust and anyone ordering one of these balls will be getting a phone call about a back order.

[Jared Russell]

LOL, when you add one of the balls to your cart, under "Stock" it has the infinity sign.

Maybe they aren't unobtainium after all?

[David Brinza]

Perhaps DTI woke up and said wait a minute, theres ~2000 teams who probably each want about 2 balls, we can make a lot of money here. Hey boys, put those balls back into production NOW.
They didn't promise immediate shipment on their website (I wouldn't be surprised if the balls are produced off-shore). It wouldn't be very useful for us receive the balls a month from now. I've left a voice-mail with DTI Sports inquiring about the ship date for my order. I will post their response when I receive it.

[Tetraman]

Honestly I don't know what the fuss is about. A socer ball is a socer ball. Our team didn't even consider getting an official ball, we are going to design our robot to use the misc size 5 soccer balls we all have lying around our houses.

While there is no problem with this line of thinking, you will be giving up valuable understanding of certain variables. You just have to remember that the game pieces that will be on the field will not be the same soccer ball you used to build and practice with your robot. Surfaces, stitching, bounce, and even inflation can pose either drastic or minute differences that could potentially make any of your mechanisms unsuitable.

[Dillon Compton]

All,

I just spoke with a DTI rep - they are still out of the HS300 series soccer ball. They will, if you call to order and mention you are with a FIRST team, sell you the HS500 series replacement at the same price as an HS300. The rep confirmed with me that they have started production on a new stock of balls and expect to be receiving a new stock of HS300 series soccer balls in a couple of weeks.

Clearly their website does not reflect current inventory, and you should confirm your orders via phone.

//Dillon Compton

[David Brinza]

Honestly I don't know what the fuss is about. A socer ball is a socer ball. Our team didn't even consider getting an official ball, we are going to design our robot to use the misc size 5 soccer balls we all have lying around our houses.

I can understand the issue with Lunacy, where the game pieces were very unique and diffrent some anything else.

~DtDThe outer surface finish and stitching can vary significantly among soccer balls. Depending how teams choose to interact with the balls, those parameters can have a big effect on the behavior of the ball.

While it may be fun to design a robot that will manage a variety of soccer balls well, we're just trying to develop a design solution for the official game piece. I'm hoping we won't have a repeat of the Poof Balls in Atlanta in 2006 (i.e. a new "game challenge"). :rolleyes:

[Ram Raman]

Quick question for anyone who went to the northeastern kickoff... does anyone know what parts from the KOP were missing?

[JonellGregor]

Well why not design a robot that can work with many different balls. As the competition goes on the balls will get worn just as the balls did last year. If you design your robot to only be able to handle the DTI ball when it is in perfect condition then you will be disappointed when you cannot handle the ball in competition. A size 5 soccer ball is a size 5 soccer ball. My team hasn’t even thought about buying the official balls. We have many different kinds of size 5 balls brought in by members on the team and they work fine.

[dtengineering]

Well why not design a robot that can work with many different balls. .... A size 5 soccer ball is a size 5 soccer ball. My team hasn’t even thought about buying the official balls. We have many different kinds of size 5 balls brought in by members on the team and they work fine.

You're probably right. In the big picture there are probably bigger issues than the exact ball. But I suspect the balls they are using at the world cup have slightly different properties than those we use in gym class.

You can see postings here from experienced soccer players that they can feel a difference between different balls when they play with them. (While I'm not an experienced soccer player, I know there are huge differences between different brands of basketballs.)

When I was speaking with a DTI rep, they mentioned that the surface finish of their balls was different than something you might get "off the shelf".

So far we've had good luck coming up with generic concepts for ball manipulation using a generic soccer ball. Given the time and money that we're putting in to this project, however, it would make sense to spend a few bucks and double check our assumptions about whether or not a DTI ball makes a difference.

I know the game manual says it doesn't matter what kind of size 5 soccer ball we use... but the game manual also spec'ed a coefficient of friction for the regolith last year that was, while theoretically correct, not reflected in actual practice. Yeah, we checked that out, too... although several other teams beat us to it. In the end, it wasn't that big of a deal... but it was a detail that needed checking.

So you'll understand, I hope, why "probably" right isn't good enough for many teams. We just want to be thorough.

Jason

[Brandon Holley]

Quick question for anyone who went to the northeastern kickoff... does anyone know what parts from the KOP were missing?

email me: brandonjholley@gmail.com

you guys were missing the pairs of gloves and the main pneumatic regulator

[cooldude8181]

I have never thought that all the soccer balls are a little bit different.

I will have to bring this up to my team because it is a very good point.

[rwood359]

While there is no problem with this line of thinking, you will be giving up valuable understanding of certain variables. You just have to remember that the game pieces that will be on the field will not be the same soccer ball you used to build and practice with your robot. Surfaces, stitching, bounce, and even inflation can pose either drastic or minute differences that could potentially make any of your mechanisms unsuitable.
And don't forget color, if you want to ball handle during autonomous. We're getting the Ice Blue ones - will probably use off the shelf white for ball tracking checkout.

[Vikesrock]

And don't forget color, if you want to ball handle during autonomous. We're getting the Ice Blue ones - will probably use off the shelf white for ball tracking checkout.

Depending on what type of sensor you are using to try and locate the ball, color may or may not be a factor. If we use a sensor to locate balls in autonomous I doubt it is going to be the camera. I think something like an Ultrasonic or IR setup is more the direction I would go.

[ttldomination]

Perhaps DTI woke up and said wait a minute, theres ~2000 teams who probably each want about 2 balls, we can make a lot of money here. Hey boys, put those balls back into production NOW.

Not to mention that some teams put together an entire field so that's 12 balls + extras.

Our team went out and got a couple of similar balls, but according to the some the other posts, the finish is a bit different, so I think we might need to order some...hm...

[Greg Needel]

So, I am with you all on this one and it would have been nice to get one in the kit. That being said there is no reason for all the bashing going on in this thread. Yes, things could have been handled differently. Yes, There is the potential that your mechanism will not function the same with the "real" balls vs walmart ones. The issue here is that people are brewing on it, which solves nothing.

I suggest you all be Proactive about the situation, figure out what could make a ball different and try your best to prepare. There is a lesson in this that I feel people are missing because they are blinded by their emotions. Sometimes stuff happens that is beyond your control and you can and should rise to the challenge to overcome the problem.

I hope that when people look back on their build season they won't blame the fact that they couldn't buy the exact ball on the reason their robot was not as successful this year, and will attribute your season's successes to the process and challenges your team had to overcome to finish the year. Don't be distracted by this, it will only put you behind in your design.

Now go design your robot and stop complaining.


Also if anyone who was able to buy a ball wants to do some leg work for other teams, take the real ball to $@#$@#$@#$@#$@# sporting goods and see what is close. While I am not a soccer player I find it hard to believe that there is a huge difference in such a low cost item. (if we were talking about 300 world cup balls I might buy into it).

[Jon236]

Now go design your robot and stop complaining.





Greg,

Amen to that. I called Eyal and told him the problem we were having here getting soccer balls; he couldn't stop laughing. He said soccer balls are 30 NIS (~$8) and readily available in Israel. I suggested that maybe his teams could supply the balls to FIRST as a fundraiser! :)

[David Brinza]

I just spoke with a DTI Sports sales rep. Upon request, they will substitute the HS500 for the HS300 for immediate shipment. They are expecting a new shipment of HS300 balls by Jan 25, for those who are willing/able to wait.

I don't think acquiring the game piece should be part of the challenge of FRC. Apparently, I'm just not thinking the right way. :rolleyes:

"Fool me once...shame on you. Fool me twice..shame on me." But, fool me everytime? I think Einstein had an answer for that!

[Greg McKaskle]

For teams intending to use vision to locate the soccer ball, there are a number of things that may be useful to consider.

1. The soccer ball chosen doesn't have a saturated color that is easy to mask. Robo Cup traditionally uses orange elements to make things easy, but they are starting to move away from that to up the challenge.

2. 3D shapes illuminated with directional lighting produce a huge variation in the shade of the color. Almost half of the ball will be in its own shadow.

3. Bright lights cause specular reflections -- glare. Matte objects have larger blurrier reflections which are a blend of the surface and light color, and shiny objects have smaller, sharper and brighter reflections which tend more towards the light color. In other words, no matter what the color, the field lighting and shop lighting will cause many holes in the image of the ball.

On the positive side, you might consider the background behind the soccer ball. Think of the soccer ball, shadows, etc. punching a hole in the carpet. Especially for autonomous, this seems like it might be a viable approach for locating the ball using the camera.

Greg McKaskle

[MrForbes]

Also the balls are very glossy, very reflective. I expect you'll have a lot of trouble with reflections from the lights in the arena.

[dtengineering]

I'm glad to read that more HS300 balls are on their way. We just had a couple of HS500 balls delivered yesterday and they are, as Jim says, very glossy and their surface finish definitely has a lower coefficient of friction on carpet than the old, beat up ball we were originally testing with.

That said, I'm not sure how long the pristine surface finish will last... probably quite a while, so long as we don't subject the balls to the vicious high speed ball grinder that our first prototype "backspin roller" turned out to be. Who knew AM wheels could melt soccer balls?

A lower speed, higher friction approach appears to work better, and we've had good success using the intake roller off last year's robot with both the new and older balls (about 2" diameter Al tube with McMaster round belting on it, driven by FP motors on a 64:1 reduction, as I recall)

But several soccer players have commented on how glossy the balls are... I'm glad we now have a standard to base our designs on... we'll inflate one ball to 27" circumference and another to 29" so we can test kicking and control at both inflation extremes.

Jason

[Greg Needel]

I'm glad to read that more HS300 balls are on their way. We just had a couple of HS500 balls delivered yesterday and they are, as Jim says, very glossy and their surface finish definitely has a lower coefficient of friction on carpet than the old, beat up ball we were originally testing with.

That said, I'm not sure how long the pristine surface finish will last... probably quite a while, so long as we don't subject the balls to the vicious high speed ball grinder that our first prototype "backspin roller" turned out to be. Who knew AM wheels could melt soccer balls?

A lower speed, higher friction approach appears to work better, and we've had good success using the intake roller off last year's robot with both the new and older balls (about 2" diameter Al tube with McMaster round belting on it, driven by FP motors on a 64:1 reduction, as I recall)

But several soccer players have commented on how glossy the balls are... I'm glad we now have a standard to base our designs on... we'll inflate one ball to 27" circumference and another to 29" so we can test kicking and control at both inflation extremes.

Jason


Would it be possible for anyone to compare these balls to the wilson hex soccer ball available at walmart? I have already seen this ball as the most common one in people's prototyping pictures and videos.

[MrForbes]

I'd like to compare them, but the Wilson ball is in the fab shop, and the spec ball is in the meeting room! I'll see if I can manage to get them together for a comparison. I also need to remember to get a pressure gage....

[Chris is me]

Personally, I'd rather vision track the goals than the ball. You place the ball where you want to and drive until an IR or ultrasonic sensor on your robot indicates it is properly possessed, then you aim at the goal. Though since there's no particular reason your aim should be different every round, the camera isn't too important.

[MrForbes]

I visited Walmart today and looked at the soccer balls, the white Mitre Cup Final ball seems to have a finish similar to the spec ball. Much closer than the less expensive Wilson ball I bought there.

I did not do any measuring....sorry.....

[TD912]

FYI, it appears they are back in stock:
http://dtisoccer.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=17

No more Out Of Stock/Sold Out message!

[MrWibbles]

w00t, more soccer balls!

Is the "White" color the same as "Pearl White" ?

[gyaniv]

GOD...
I almost started crying from laughing while reading it...
Feels good to have Nike as a sponsor that gives you 50balls for free... And not the cheap kind...
So awesome to be us right now...

[PAR_WIG1350]

I'd happily trade the KoP wheels... especially the rather useless slick ones... for one regulation soccer ball.

Jason

The slick wheels are very useful, especially for smoothing-out 'jumpy' drive trains.

[PAR_WIG1350]

2010: DTI Soccer Balls are unobtainium, not going back into production till the competitions have started
2009: Orbit balls became unobtainium, Blip Toys wasnt going to manufacture more till after competitions started
2008: Trackballs were DIFFICULT to obtain, but were not so bad because there were so few in the game, and were expensive.
2007: The tubes were not easy to get until after the games were done.
2006: The poof ball manufacturer was blindsided, they got really hard to get
2005: Used game pieces teams could make themselves.
2004: The 5 pt balls became hard to get the exact model, luckily, lots of similar 14" rubber balls exist in high school gymnasiums
2003: The sterilite bins used were unobtainium for months after the competitions.

Thats as far back as i've been involved... FIRST game pieces becoming unobtainium by the second week of January happens regularly. FIRST needs to warn the manufacturers adequately.

Maybe, the manufacturers, even if warned, don't understand the magnitude of the situation because of
-FIRST not making a big deal about it, to keep it a secret and
-the fact no one at the company has ever heard of FIRST or, if some one does, they don't know much about it.
this results, possibly, in the company falsely believing that the increase in sales will be smaller than what it truly is. maybe if FIRST, or the teams, made the game pieces, it would work out better. But then again, in 2005 the issue was that the game pieces were more dangerous than the GDC had anticipated due to their weight.

[m3ch4num470r]

After the DC Regional, team 449 found an issue with not having access to an official ball.

We use a vacuum attachment for grabbing balls. It was working incredibly well with our Size 5 ball back in our school, so we figured it would work well at competition. We adjusted it at competition using our ball, then went out to compete. The vacuum didn't pick up a single ball. Finally, on day two, we went out to the practice field and put a ball against our vacuum opening. Lo and behold, the official soccer ball is larger than ours!

If your robot needs something in precise contact with the ball, please learn from our mistake and remember that the official balls could be a different size than yours, even if you were using a size 5 ball. Take the time to go out to the practice field and adjust your mechanism properly for the official ball on the official field. If your mechanism isn't adjustable, take some time to think about how you might make it adjustable quickly at competition. We were lucky enough to have an 80/20 mount, but I know that a lot of teams are more refined and use welded aluminum.

We also noticed that the ball was bouncier than ours, so we were kicking a little further (no complaints there). Obviously, your mileage will vary based on which ball you used.