Solenoid is teh fail

[Nick Seidl]

We are using the 2010 Festo solenoid valve. We've double/triple checked the wiring, and yes, we got the memo about it being 24v. The plumbing has also been checked. At this point, we only get the light on the valve to blink when fire the cylinder. A clicking noise also occurs. Yet, no air is redirected. We suspect that the solenoid is DOA (as per what has been noted about these solenoids in other threads). Before we mess with trying to replace it, any other ideas on how to make this thing behave itself? :yikes:

[DonRotolo]

Are you firing it with air pressure? Make sure it's about 20 PSI or more.

Can you switch it manually? Those little blue buttons do that.

I trust that the plumbing is correct, and the exhaust hole doesn't have a plug in it. One guaranteed way to eliminate this possibility is to remove ALL the lines/connectors/plugs except the air input, then try it.

It is possible you got a bad one, but they are awfully reliable and rarely fail like that.

Got a photo of the plumbing and a drawing of the wiring we can check? (The light coming on is a good sign, wiring is likely correct)

[ayeckley]

It is possible you got a bad one, but they are awfully reliable and rarely fail like that.

The "old" style FESTO valves used in 2009 and earlier did appear to have significant reliability issues. In most cases, the descriptions of the failures exactly matched the mode described above. This is the first evidence I've seen of any issue with the "new" style FESTO valves (which more closely resemble the SMC design, at least outwardly). Please report back and let us know if insufficient pilot air pressure was indeed the cause of the problem or not.

[Numbers]

Team 3238 also has a defective model. Tried hooking it to the compressor and everything.

[TD912]

Same here. Clicking sound and lights up, but no airflow. We're 99% sure everything is connected correctly, including the 12/24v issue.

Hooking up an old SMC solenoid to the same wires works.

Unless there's a simple mistake we're all making...?

[bladetech932]

make sure you are using the metal solenoid because the plastic ones break so easily,we had 4 defective ones.

[Nick Seidl]

OK, here is some more information. First, we know that we have 60psi getting to the solenoid. We also realized we did have the plumbing wrong, however fixing this did not resolve the issue. We also took last year's solenoid (which we know works), and tried that instead, and got the same result. At this point we know that its not the solenoid itself that's not behaving. We'll defenestrate our programmer, and I'll report back our solution if we get anything working.

[ayeckley]

OK, here is some more information. First, we know that we have 60psi getting to the solenoid. We also realized we did have the plumbing wrong, however fixing this did not resolve the issue. We also took last year's solenoid (which we know works), and tried that instead, and got the same result. At this point we know that its not the solenoid itself that's not behaving. We'll defenestrate our programmer, and I'll report back our solution if we get anything working.

But the light on the pilot valve is blinking when you energize it, yes? Just one pilot valve at a time, or both? Should only be one...

[Mark McLeod]

Since last year's solenoid is 12v I assume for your test you changed at least the Solenoid Bumper power supply from the cRIO 24v connector to the regular red/black 12v wago connectors on the Power Distribution Panel?

Hard to do a true replacement test without another 24v solenoid.

If the programming is correct the status lights on the cRIO Solenoid Module will light up - no solenoid required for a visual check.

We also took last year's solenoid (which we know works), and tried that instead, and got the same result.

[jsasaki]

Does anyonw have the link to the old smc pneumatic solenoid valves because I look and look on their site and can never find it? Oh and its legal to use those right according to this?
<R72> C. Solenoid valves. All such valves must have a maximum ⅛” NPT port diameter, and a maximum Cv of 0.32 (if non-KOP valves are used, the team will be required to provide part documentation validating that the valves meet these constraints).:confused:

[Mark McLeod]

Any of the SMC SY3000 series are under the 2010 rules Cv requirement.

Do not get the SY5000 series. They are all above the legal .32 Cv

Oddly enough the Festos are not rated in Cv, but in something like ml/s. That's not going to be documentable for an inspector.

There are some links posted in other recent solenoid treads, or I'll hunt up some soon. I've got robotics now and a wireless bridge that's DOA.

[DonRotolo]

At this point we know that its not the solenoid itself that's not behaving.Good, maybe. Again, check those things mentioned in this thread.We'll defenestrate our programmerThrow him out the window? :confused:

[AndrewJS]

Just to clarify:

1) The old 2009 festo valve works when manually testing it. It was wired into the 12v power supply (not 24). When testing with the sample program "simple solenoid example," an orange light lit up on it, but it did not actuate. We double checked the wiring and the plumbing to no avail.
2)The 2010 valve was plugged into the 24v power supply. I was absent for most of it's testing and can't say much more.
3) Yes both had 60psi of pressure (sometimes a bit less) going to them via the regulator.

We meet tomorrow at 9am, so we'll test all other possible suggestions/options then. My guess is that it's just defective, but we'll double check as always.

[Joe Finkel]

Mark, when you mention the SMC SY3000 solenoid,you probably also meant
that it has to be 24v as well?

[efoote868]

We're 99% sure everything is connected correctly, including the 12/24v issue.

A guy I work with was telling me about one of the supervisors he had many years back. He quoted him as saying - "Gene, don't give me this bull about how you're absolutely sure. You're a goddang engineer, leave yourself some wiggle room. From now on when I ask you your name, you'd better say 'I'm 95% sure it's Gene.'"

Double-Triple check everything again, have an outside person look at it, and when you're 95% sure that its all correct and it still doesn't work, try replacing it.

Chances are if the replacement doesn't work, you shouldn't have been 95% sure. :p
Best of luck.

[Mark McLeod]

Mark, when you mention the SMC SY3000 solenoid,you probably also meant
that it has to be 24v as well?

Hi Joe,

It doesn't have to be, but you do probably want to chose all 12v solenoids or all 24v solenoids if you can afford what you need to buy.
If a team has really tight $, then there are a lot of combinations of 12v & 24v solenoids that are possible this year.

One Solenoid Bumper can only support one or the other voltage.
We are allowed two Solenoid Bumpers though, and one could be 12v while the other could be 24v. In addition, 12v solenoids can be driven through the Digital Sidecar Relay outputs w/Spike.


1) The old 2009 festo valve works when manually testing it. It was wired into the 12v power supply (not 24). When testing with the sample program "simple solenoid example," an orange light lit up on it, but it did not actuate. We double checked the wiring and the plumbing to no avail.

This test bothers me, because the 2009 Festo was wired differently than earlier years. The results you saw could easily mean the 2009 Festo wiring was on pins 1&2 rather than 1&3, or vice-versa.

[AndrewJS]

This test bothers me, because the 2009 Festo was wired differently than earlier years. The results you saw could easily mean the 2009 Festo wiring was on pins 1&2 rather than 1&3, or vice-versa.

You were right, we had the wiring wrong. We got the 2009 valve to work wiring it to 1 & 3. We're double checking the 2010 valve now.

EDIT: Seems the guy who wired the 2009 solenoid wrong had the plumbing wrong on the 2010 solenoid. We put the line coming from the tanks into the center of the side with 3 inputs, then connected the back and front of the cylinder to the side with only 2 inputs. The exhausts comes out of the left and right side of the side with 3 inputs. This means we have to fire the separate solenoids to make it go in or out, but at the moment we only have 3 connectors, so this is our only option.

[bhsrobotics1671]

are previous KOP SMC solenoids legal?

[bhsrobotics1671]

Any of the SMC SY3000 series are under the 2010 rules Cv requirement.

Do not get the SY5000 series. They are all above the legal .32 Cv

Oddly enough the Festos are not rated in Cv, but in something like ml/s. That's not going to be documentable for an inspector.

There are some links posted in other recent solenoid treads, or I'll hunt up some soon. I've got robotics now and a wireless bridge that's DOA.

Where can you buy these? I can find the documentation on how to assemble them for FIRST teams but that is it...

[DonRotolo]

I just have a nagging feeling the vent port has a plug in it. I'd love to see a close-up, non-blurry photo of the valve plumbing.

[ayeckley]

Where can you buy these? I can find the documentation on how to assemble them for FIRST teams but that is it...

Allied Electronics (www.alliedelec.com) is probably the "distributor-of-least-resistance" (to coin a phrase) within the US. The number of available options and configurations is a bit daunting, and there seems to be about a dozen different versions of the datasheets online. The good news is that just about anything within the SY3000 series is legal this year (including their 3-way valves). Allied doesn't carry the entire product line in stock (they are heavy on the 24V pilot valves), but it seems that the lead time on most non-stock items we've wanted has been only a few days.

That said, most of our stock has come from eBay (subject to the usual accounting rules when it comes to the BOM for the competition).

[Homsar66]

Any of the SMC SY3000 series are under the 2010 rules Cv requirement.

Do not get the SY5000 series. They are all above the legal .32 Cv

Oddly enough the Festos are not rated in Cv, but in something like ml/s. That's not going to be documentable for an inspector.

There are some links posted in other recent solenoid treads, or I'll hunt up some soon. I've got robotics now and a wireless bridge that's DOA.

The SMC noid i've got here is a 3000 series but it's ports are 1/4 inch, making it not legal. So be specific, I'd hate for a rookie team to spend all their money on illegal noids (and they sure are expensive).

As for the Festo, glad you figured it out. You mentioned it only blinked, on ours that means it's wired wrong, usually polarity is backwards.

[ayeckley]

The SMC noid i've got here is a 3000 series but it's ports are 1/4 inch, making it not legal. So be specific, I'd hate for a rookie team to spend all their money on illegal noids (and they sure are expensive).

When you say your valve is 1/4", are you referring to the dimensional measurement of the port, or the NPT size of the port? A 1/8" NPT port is dimensionally about 0.25". The <R72(C)> port size requirement is in terms of NPT size, not dimensional size. As near as I can tell (from SMC SY Master Catalog ES11-57), the SY3000 series is not available in a 1/4" NPT (neither base nor body-ported varients).

[Homsar66]

When you say your valve is 1/4", are you referring to the dimensional measurement of the port, or the NPT size of the port? A 1/8" NPT port is dimensionally about 0.25". The <R72(C)> port size requirement is in terms of NPT size, not dimensional size. As near as I can tell (from SMC SY Master Catalog ES11-57), the SY3000 series is not available in a 1/4" NPT (neither base nor body-ported varients).

The NPT size. The same size as the threads on the accumulators.
I just thought it was interesting as it's the only one we have with 1/4 inch fittings.